Haley's Aunt is a Traitor!

[IronWilliam]

In OOTS 609 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html), Bozzok said that to get rid of Ian, He wrote "a few letters to some friends on the western continent." He also said "I still don't know what they wrote to get him to rush off." In OOTS 770 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html), Ian said "My sister asked me to come help her and husband with this rebellion thing." Bozzok said that "they" wrote something to him, presumably a letter. When you add it up, it probably means that Ivy and Geoff are somehow working with Bozzok. This would also explain why Geoff was so surprised when he thought Bozzok sent him. (OOTS 779) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html). It all fits!

[Dalek-K]

Yeah quite a few people have made comments about this.

It's possible I guess but it doesn't make a huge impact the plot much...

[Drynwyn]

Um, I think it would impact the plot A LOT. It would also explain why Ian keeps getting caught when he attempts to break out.

[slayerx]

Um, I think it would impact the plot A LOT. It would also explain why Ian keeps getting caught when he attempts to break out.

Not to mention the fact that the REAL traitor is a family member whom he trusts as opposed to Elan the son of the evil tyrant whom he is completely convinced is evil

[Calmness]

Ivy is a plant? Who knew!

[jidasfire]

Ivy is a plant? Who knew!

::slow clap to standing applause::

Well played, sir.

[rewinn]

Ivy is a plant? Who knew!

I'll bet she's not really a rogue! I'll bet she's a specialized assassin - specifically a Poisoner Ivy:smalltongue:

[Leecros]

In OOTS 609 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html), Bozzok said that to get rid of Ian, He wrote "a few letters to some friends on the western continent." He also said "I still don't know what they wrote to get him to rush off."

that would depend on whether Haley succeeded on a sense motive check in panel 9 or if there was a check at all. It is entirely possible that he said that to keep her occupied so that Crystal could get into flanking. In theory i would imagine that Haley would be a decent enough of a rogue to have a hunch about when she was being lied to.

Of course there's no way to know that without Word of God as there's no indicators that she's using sense motive, but she didn't believe his story which could mean one of two things.
1. She succeeded on her sense motive check and his story was a bluff to occupy her while Crystal gets into position.
2. She simply didn't believe the story, no skill checks involved.


Your theory's sound, i'm just reading into it way too much :smalltongue:

[IronWilliam]

I don't really see why he would lie about it. I mean there aren't even rules for distracting people in combat!
@V. At the time, she didn't know Aunt Ivy was even on the western continent, so it would be strange if he lied about something she couldn't possibly know anyway.
EDIT: Fine, rules for VEBALY distracting people in combat.

[Leecros]

I don't really see why he would lie about it. I mean there aren't even rules for detracting people in combat!

Clearly he did. Rules or no.


As i said i'm most likely reading way too much into it, but it was a thought i had while rereading the comic.

[Lycan 01]

Wow, I totally forgot about that. :smalleek:

[TimelordSimone]

I don't really see why he would lie about it. I mean there aren't even rules for distracting people in combat!
@V. At the time, she didn't know Aunt Ivy was even on the western continent, so it would be strange if he lied about something she couldn't possibly know anyway.

There totally are. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Feint)

Anyway it seems to me incredibly unlikely that Bozzok would tell a lie that happens to fit perfectly with what actually happened. From a story telling perspective it seems far more likely that he was telling the truth.

[Swordpriest]

Yes, this has been a subject of speculation since the strip when Ian revealed that he came to the Western continent in response to a message from Ivy and Geoff. In fact, my current thought about them is "guilty until proven innocent".

[Ancalagon]

This seems to be a likely setup. Also look at how Geoff reacts after getting told about the Bozzok-connection. I think he HOPED Belkar would tell him he does not have to sit in jail with Ian anymore - and was disappointed when it turned out Belkar was not sent as replacement.

Also, there HAS to be something, as it was implied a thief of Ian's level easily would have escaped.
Whom did he talk to about all his attempts? Geoff.

Also and much beyond that, Ian strongly believes you can trust family and have to mistrust everyone who is not family. If Haley's and Elan's romance is supposed to go somewhere that does not include a "disgruntled father", this belief has to be shaken - very probably by finding out that "family" is not automatically to be trusted.

But I think it's not "Aunt Judy AND Geoff" that are the evildoers here. Sure, they once were, but now it's "Aunt Judy" who also left Geoff out to dry.
Or is it to be expected that someone who leaves Ian in jail and accepts that her husband ALSO has to go in there would not look for a "better opportunity" while being outside and the guy is left to rot inside?

Or it might turn out "Aunt Judy" has already been killed by Tarquin (either because she became annoying or because he got rid of her after being his nth wife) - and now only uses the ressources (Geoff) in his jail without ever telling him Aunt Judy has been dead/in another cell for years.

Anyway, I'd be very, very surprised if it would not turn out that Geoff betrayed Ian.

[Swordpriest]

But I think it's not "Aunt Judy AND Geoff"

It definitely isn't Aunt Judy and Geoff, since it's Aunt Ivy and Geoff.

Sorry, couldn't resist ....

[Ancalagon]

Ah, Aunt Judy is Belkar's... well... hum... then "Judy" is just an variable containing the value "Ivy". ;)

[John Cribati]

I'd bet Cousin Sheila (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) is Ivy and Geoff's daughter

[Ancalagon]

From the link above: it seems Ian's line of trust goes a bit like this:
family > "our people"* > strangers who are not lawful > strangers who are lawful > police (or specific law types)

* probably thieves. Very probably split in two "thieves from our area/guild" and "thieves and dishonest people from anywhere else".

[Yendor]

Also and much beyond that, Ian strongly believes you can trust family and have to mistrust everyone who is not family. If Haley's and Elan's romance is supposed to go somewhere that does not include a "disgruntled father", this belief has to be shaken - very probably by finding out that "family" is not automatically to be trusted.

I think this part is right. Ian is too naive - in a paranoid way - to suspect family. But if Geoff is the traitor, Ian can still rationalise that since Geoff isn't a blood relative, it vindicates his position. For Ian's belief to really be challenged, it must be Ivy that betrays him.

The setup we've been given is supposed to invite the interpretation that it's Geoff keeping Ian in prison, but it's all been ambiguous so far. Geoff's reaction to Bozzok could mean several things, for instance, that he thought Bozzok sent them to "finish the job" by killing both of them.

Now this doesn't mean Geoff is innocent, but I think he's just as likely to be a naive pawn as a mole.

[Ancalagon]

We do not know for sure yet it is because Rich does not want us to know for sure. We see "there is something going on" and we can speculate on it, without being able to draw this or that fixed conclusion - and several outcomes are possible.

This is what makes the speculating interesting. Right now, I find it more likely that Aunt Ivy and Geoff are somehow responsible for the imprisonment of Ian.
What DOES not fit with my theory is why Geoff agreed to "years of prison". I mean, how much does he get paid for that? As far as we know, nothing.

Also that he thinks he WILL get paid in the future (it's about 200.000 goldpieces) and therefore holds out makes not much sense.
First, he knows Haley is "just" a normal thief, so that she would be able to pay the price seems unlikely to begin with. And even is she paid, that money gets split between The Ruler and The Betrayers, and gets split even more within the group of The Betrayers. So if we assume 50/50 splits all the time, we get 100.000/2, which again is split by two (Ivy and Geoff), so Geoff get's 25.000 gp for YEARS in prison. I doubt he's doing all that for this amount of gold (especially if he has a couple of class levels).

It seems much more likely he got tricked into this as well or here not on a voluntarily basis, which again seems to imply Aunt Ivy is letting him rot in there.

We also DO know that Geoff does not have an easy way out of the prison (like to spend a day per week at home with his wife or is "superspy" for Tarquin). He also has those parasites etc. No, he does not seem to get any special treatment.

As I think of this: The problem "Geoff" suddenly makes sense if I assume he's here because someone has Aunt Ivy prisoner and threatens HER if he does not spy on all the political prisoners and especially on Ian.
This seems to be a valid reason why he spies on Ian, does not warn him in any way, and why the "would not get enough money" problem does not pose an actual problem.
This, actually, can become my new Favourite Theory on Ian's and Geoff's imprisonment - but it sadly removes any clue on who might be the bad guy behind it. Sure, Tarquin is, but who is the person Bozzok wrote to? Tarquin seems a bit unlikely, unless those have a connection.
Yet, THIS again does not explain why Ian rushes off and ends up in a situation where he can get imprisoned. Knowing Ian's paranoia, it seems likely the letter came from someone he knew and trusted at least a bit - which again draws Geoff/Ivy into the vortex. Somehow.

Conclusion: We need more data. ;)

[Fitzclowningham]

The Ivy (Geoff?) as traitor idea would also explain how neither Geoff nor Ian ever seems to be put into the arena.

[IronWilliam]

New theory: Geoff specifically asked Belkar if Bozzok was dead, and hesitated after Belkar told him he was not. Geoff seemed like an okay guy, could he and Ivy be being blackmailed or threatened by Bozzok somehow?

[xelliea]

There is pretty good detail that you have put into this, and you do have a point, but I am not sure if it will affect the plot in anyway.

[Mutant Sheep]

Is this necromancy?

[Nimrod's Son]

There is pretty good detail that you have put into this, and you do have a point, but I am not sure if it will affect the plot in anyway.
It's bound to affect the plot in some way, or Rich wouldn't have bothered putting it in there.


Is this necromancy?
No, the thread's only a month old. Six weeks is the necromancy limit.

[Ancalagon]

No, the thread's only a month old. Six weeks is the necromancy limit.

What if I have Greater Raise Thread? Or even True Resurrection?

[Nimrod's Son]

What if I have Greater Raise Thread? Or even True Resurrection?
They work, but they're a bit of a waste of resources. Usually a mod leaps out from somewhere and immediately kills it stone dead again.

[hobbitkniver]

Wow, I hadn't figured this out. The things people on this forum come up with continue to amaze me.

[EmperorSarda]

Ivy hasn't left town or abandoned them both. She smuggles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html) food in once a week to Ian and Geoff.

[Flame of Anor]

Ivy is a plant? Who knew!

aaaagh, the pun it burns us, precious

[Holy_Knight]

What if Ivy was the one who was actually betrayed? If Bozzok's friends posed as sympathizers to the rebellion (or were simply swayed by money/loyalty to Bozzok), they could have encouraged or manipulated her into sincerely asking Ian for help. Bozzok gets Ian out of the way, Bozzok's friends get payment or favors to call in, and if Tarquin's involved he gets a faux "rebellion" that he can monitor and keep in check instead of any bothersome real ones. That would fit with everything the characters have said, without anyone in Ian's family betraying each other.

[Theodoriph]

Ivy is a plant? Who knew!

I'm glad this thread was repeatedly bumped, as it gave me the chance to see this. :D

[mizzim]

Is Tarquin in on it?

[Fish]

Uncle Geoff's missing leg fits the Graysky Thieves' Guild MO: remove competition and enforce obedience by amputating the offender's most useful appendage(s). I wonder if Geoff has a nickname like "Footpad" or "Twinkletoes" or "Sneaky."

[snikrept]

Clearly Geoff was the guild's best footballer.:smallbiggrin:

One wonders what Geoff stands to gain from all this prison time. Geoff may actually have legitimate reasons for hating Tarquin or wanting to foment rebellion in the desert. Bozzok admitted he didn't know what his agent in the West said to him to lure Haley's father out there. Bozzok may have just been taking advantage of a situation Geoff had wanted to happen.

[Alchemist_Fire]

Re: Haley's Sense Motive Check (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html)

It's possible that Bozzock was bluffing for a feint, but those facts hit coincidentally close to the truth. On the other hand, if it IS a ploy, is it necessary for Geoff to be jailed with him? Surely he could "sneak out" and leave Ian behind while masking his true intent?

At any rate, I agree that it seems an unnecessary plot complication. However, that would change if Ivy Starshine received significant screen-time; such a plot twist would justify the adventures in Tarquin's realm that much more.

I can't wait to find out how Girard fits into all of this.