How far above the usual CR does the Beholder Mage go?

[Alleran]

Two questions, really.

1) Approximately what CR is a 10th level Beholder Mage? As in, what party could expect to beat it (assuming it was reasonably well-played)? This is taking into account how brutally powerful it is, not just simple levels, HD or what-have-you.

2) If a PC happens to be a 10th level Beholder Mage, how far above his usual CR (let's say he was 20th level, with the spellcasting of a 10th level BM) would he/should he be able to fight on equal terms? Could he curbstomp the Great Wyrm dragons? Could he even fight and defeat the demon lords/archdevils of the Abyss and Nine Hells (I refer here, of course, to the upgraded ones found in Dragon Magazine more than the FC or BoVD, so Demogorgon as a CR 33, Grazz't as a CR 32, and so on and so forth)? More than one at the same time, even?

[Doc Roc]

Beholder mage may be the game's single most powerful PrC. It's only meaningful competition is probably Thrallherd or Planar Shepherd. It's really that bad. It's CR-adjustment can be called J, where J is K+N+Base_CR^2, and K and N are arbitrarily large and arbitrarily angry.

[Runestar]

A beholder beholder mage10 would be cr23 (maybe more if you decide to advance it for better stats). At this lv, epic characters can be assumed to be extremely resourceful, and crs start becoming irrelevant at this point anyways.

So my point is, just throw them at your party and stop worrying about whether it will result in a TPK or not. :smallamused:

[Doc Roc]

A beholder beholder mage10 would be cr23 (maybe more if you decide to advance it for better stats). At this lv, epic characters can be assumed to be extremely resourceful, and crs start becoming irrelevant at this point anyways.

So my point is, just throw them at your party and stop worrying about whether it will result in a TPK or not. :smallamused:

I have yet to encounter an "Or not" in this particular matter. Beholder Mages are pretty much The Worst News a player can get within the context of the game.

[Eldan]

If we assume full-on rocket-tag style gameplay, the Beholder mage is the one who straps a battleship main-cannon and an anti-air missile array to the back of his truck, then drives it on the playing field.

In other words, at levels when one spell can win the game if you are lucky, and getting two or three per turn becomes possible for the normal mage, the Beholder mage gets significantly more.

[Runestar]

Well, the beholder mage would be able to fire off 11 spells each round. 1 spell each of lv0 to 9, 1 epic spell and 1 swift spell.

How can this be (ab)used? :smallredface:

However, it doesn't really have that much hp (21HD only). A beholder advanced to 33 HD is just cr18-19 and would have similar actions.

[Eldan]

How you can abuse this? Well, without epic magic, which is borked anyway, let's look at a fight:

9. Mordenkainen's Disjunction (possibly protected against with a ring)
8. Dimensional Lock
7. Forcecage
6. Greater Dispel Magic
5. Baleful Polymorph
4. Solid Fog
3. Hold person
2. Glitterdust
1. Grease
0. Prestidigitation for a nice sound effect

[candycorn]

Mages are top of the heap in D&D for one reason. Spells. They also have low HP.

In one turn, a beholder mage can:

Detect Magic
Glitterdust
Dispel Magic
Greater Dispel Magic
Hold Monster
Waves of Exhaustion
Solid Fog
Dimensional Lock
Obscuring Mist
Time Stop

And that's just core spells. Note the 2-5 rounds of buffing it now has, which can culminate in a teleport away, after rendering itself unscryable, if targets weren't affected.

[Aharon]

Note how Eldan is actually using a conservative version without metamagic. All of the 10 spells the Beholder Mage fires of could be from 9th level slots, with heavy metamagic involved, since the class only cares about the level of the spells used, not the spell slot :smallbiggrin:

@Doc Roc
What about Tainted Scholar? Your recent comment on the topic would have led me to believe it's a contender.

[LordBlades]

I don't think an optimized Beholder Mage 10 is beatable before lvl 17. As it stands 9th level spells are so much above the rest that it's almost impossible to beat somebody that uses them to it's full potential without having access to 9th level spells yourself.

Once the PCs(or at least 1 of them) are 17th level full casters, then it's all down to who gets the first round. Even if they can't manage 10 spells/round, any optimized casters should be able to get off enough spells in a single round to splatter the Beholder Mage. When both parties are capable of overkill, it doesn't really matter who's capable of more overkill.

As for a PC playing a beholder mage, it all depends on the party make-up. If the other players are bringing equally optimized builds (Incantatrix abusing metamagic reducers, Dweomerkeeper making full use of Supernatural Spell, Miracle spamming Shadowcraft Mage etc.) then it's not going to feel much more powerful

[sonofzeal]

A Beholder is CR 13. Beholder Mage is a 10 lvl PrC, and clearly "associated". A Beholder who maxed it out is hence CR 23... which sounds entirely reasonable.


Beholder BM-1: CR 14, probably not noticeably more powerful than a straight Beholder.

Beholder BM-5: CR 18, probably underpowered at that point. A Black Ethergaunt gives this a serious run for its money.

Beholder BM-10: CR 23, probably among the most dangerous at that level, but still within the bounds of probability. If you can kill a prepared CR 23 full caster, you can stand a decent chance against this guy.

[Alleran]

A Beholder is CR 13. Beholder Mage is a 10 lvl PrC, and clearly "associated". A Beholder who maxed it out is hence CR 23... which sounds entirely reasonable.
Well, I wasn't really talking about just the HD and so on, though, but included the power of its spellcasting (the ten spells per round) into the bargain. After all, being able to fire off ten spells per round is more than some deities can do, so it should inflate what the actual CR is to something significantly more difficult.

[candycorn]

My general Beholder tactic for this would be:

Offensive spells (level 0-8), Time stop.

1) Buff spells, including spell turning, spell resistance, and effulgent epuration
2) Buff spells, including greater arcane sight, true seeing, superior invisibility, and shapechange (golem of some sort).

(assume only a 3 round time stop)
3) delay until time stop ends.

3 continued) full offense, including disjunction from 65 feet or more.

[sonofzeal]

Well, I wasn't really talking about just the HD and so on, though, but included the power of its spellcasting (the ten spells per round) into the bargain. After all, being able to fire off ten spells per round is more than some deities can do, so it should inflate what the actual CR is to something significantly more difficult.
Yeah, but we're still talking a CR 23 creature here. That means it's a fair challenge for a team of four ECL 23 PCs. Considering what epic level PCs are capable of, and considering that a 20th lvl Wizard should be considered an "easy" fight for them, is a max level beholder mage all that unreasonable?

The flaw here is that anyone who casts 9th lvl spells and is sufficiently prepared is almost impossible to kill. ECL 23 PCs could really struggle with taking out a single lvl 20 Wizard. The CR system just doesn't apply at that level. But relative to the difficulty of taking out a lvl 20 Wizard, how much harder is it to take out a Beholder Mage?

Power is supposed to double every two levels, so a CR 23 Beholder Mage is rated roughly three times stronger than a lvl 20 Human Wizard. Do you think that's reasonable?

[Eldan]

Under that assumption, yes, it's about appropriate.

The problem, however, is that CR =/= CR and Level =/Level.

I'd be willing to bet that a prepared CR 23 beholder mage can take an almost arbitrary number of Fighter 23s, while a Wizard 23 has epic magic and, with some preparation, has a good chance.

[Tyndmyr]

Power is supposed to double every two levels, so a CR 23 Beholder Mage is rated roughly three times stronger than a lvl 20 Human Wizard. Do you think that's reasonable?

Yes. Possibly more than three times stronger.

It's a horribly nasty fight for a level 20 party. I'd place it at +4 CR or so, so about 24.

Sure, epic magic changes the equation, but you've got to mind the gap where pre-epic characters might actually face it. That would generally be a terrible, terrible day.

[sonofzeal]

Under that assumption, yes, it's about appropriate.

The problem, however, is that CR =/= CR and Level =/Level.

I'd be willing to bet that a prepared CR 23 beholder mage can take an almost arbitrary number of Fighter 23s, while a Wizard 23 has epic magic and, with some preparation, has a good chance.
Well, yes. The system isn't balanced, we know this.

I think it's faulty to assume preparation on that level though. A lot of these theoretical exercised involving casters assumed an arbitrarily high level of preparation, that's never actually come through in a game I've played. PC Wizards are still at the whim of the DM, and may be able to throw together clever solutions, but can still frequently be caught off guard through the power of Plot. Not even epic magic can trump Plot some times.

Similarly, the way most DMs I know run NPCs, an enemy Beholder Mage might start the encounter with a few spells up but no elaborate preparation, and might even get caught in an ambush if the PCs are clever. A lvl 23 Fighter can do enough damage to kill a Beholder Mage in a single hit, and under most DMs would have at least a chance of getting that hit off if he played well.

Really, it all comes down to Rocket Tag again, and the Beholder Mage gets better rockets but no specific advantage getting that first shot off, and can be "tagged" just as easily as any other high level caster.

[Doc Roc]

@Doc Roc
What about Tainted Scholar? Your recent comment on the topic would have led me to believe it's a contender.

I would suggest it is, some would suggest it isn't. I chose two that people almost uniformly agree on.

[Tyndmyr]

Really, it all comes down to Rocket Tag again, and the Beholder Mage gets better rockets but no specific advantage getting that first shot off, and can be "tagged" just as easily as any other high level caster.

Oh, they're just as vulnerable to being novaed before they get init as anyone else, sure. Beholders in general go down hard if you win init.

The messy part is if that doesn't happen. Yeah, it's rocket tag, but the beholder mage has a fully automatic heat-seeking rocket launcher.

[Doc Roc]

Oh, they're just as vulnerable to being novaed before they get init as anyone else, sure. Beholders in general go down hard if you win init.

The messy part is if that doesn't happen. Yeah, it's rocket tag, but the beholder mage has a fully automatic heat-seeking rocket launcher.

And the capacity to spend its life shapechanged as a dire tortoise.

So it's more like fighting the Sun Crusher. I hope you have a convenient black hole.

[Tvtyrant]

And the capacity to spend its life shapechanged as a dire tortoise.

So it's more like fighting the Sun Crusher. I hope you have a convenient black hole.

Rationally that wouldn't work as it casts from its eye stalks, but (insert horrendous catgirl death here).

[Doc Roc]

Rationally that wouldn't work as it casts from its eye stalks, but (insert horrendous catgirl death here).

You can graft on eyestalks. Oh yeah, that hasn't come up yet.

[Tvtyrant]

You can graft on eyestalks. Oh yeah, that hasn't come up yet.

Beholders are incredibly narcissistic; leaving aside his having to cast fly to move around his cliffy home now there is not way a Beholder is going to permanently shapechange to a form other then the perfect form the mother granted him at birth.

[Tankadin]

You can graft on eyestalks. Oh yeah, that hasn't come up yet.

Whelp, I'm not sleeping tonight.

[Tyndmyr]

Beholders are incredibly narcissistic; leaving aside his having to cast fly to move around his cliffy home now there is not way a Beholder is going to permanently shapechange to a form other then the perfect form the mother granted him at birth.

A beholder, perhaps. A young mage, lusting for power, and with just enough gold to afford scrolls of PaO? Well, hell, if he'll become a beholder for power, he'll likely be willing to do the turtle thing as well.

[Doc Roc]

Beholders are incredibly narcissistic; leaving aside his having to cast fly to move around his cliffy home now there is not way a Beholder is going to permanently shapechange to a form other then the perfect form the mother granted him at birth.

This is true, up to a point. Remember, beholder mages have already mutilated themselves deeply. In fact, their particular mutilation is just about the only thing that beholders can agree is awful to do to yourself....

[Alleran]

Oh, they're just as vulnerable to being novaed before they get init as anyone else, sure. Beholders in general go down hard if you win init.

The messy part is if that doesn't happen. Yeah, it's rocket tag, but the beholder mage has a fully automatic heat-seeking rocket launcher.
That was a part of my question regarding whether just the +10 CR from 10 levels (for a total encounter level of CR 23) is really enough to emphasise how powerful it is, even taking into account how borked CR can be at times. I'm aware of rocket tag, but when the Beholder Mage wins initiative, it wins it much harder than just about anybody else.

[Doc Roc]

That was a part of my question regarding whether just the +10 CR from 10 levels (for a total encounter level of CR 23) is really enough to emphasise how powerful it is, even taking into account how borked CR can be at times. I'm aware of rocket tag, but when the Beholder Mage wins initiative, it wins it much harder than just about anybody else.

It will win init if built to full power. And it will kill everyone when it wins init. Non-epic, beholder mage is probably the strongest class in the game in most senses.

[Hazzardevil]

In a gestalt game I was in there was a player playing a beholder mage and the beholder monster class.
He was only level 6 at the time and I was worried.
he gets essentially a sorcerers capstone, (9th level spell,) in 3 levels.
What annoyed me even more was he was allowed this and my mystic ranger iron golem wasn't allowed sotao.
Luckily the game ground to a halt after a week.

[Hazzardevil]

In a gestalt game I was in there was a player playing a beholder mage and the beholder monster class.
He was only level 6 at the time and I was worried.
he gets essentially a sorcerers capstone, (9th level spell,) in 3 levels.
What annoyed me even more was he was allowed this and my mystic ranger iron golem wasn't allowed sotao.
Luckily the game ground to a halt after a week.

The main problem is the whole 10 spells a turn thing.

One thing though. Aside from homebrew and polymorph shenannigans, what beholder races can you get in with?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

DocRoc I with you on them silly tainted casters. In non-combat it can be worse than BH without really trying. With trying (Circle magic anyone?) you are a one man army in terms of 9th level spell slots.


what beholder races can you get in with?I hope you don't mean as a PC. I disagree but some would claim there ar

[sonofzeal]

It will win init if built to full power. And it will kill everyone when it wins init. Non-epic, beholder mage is probably the strongest class in the game in most senses.
Key words emphasised.

Non-Epic, a Beholder BM is only casting out 7th lvl spells. Heck, by the time the Wizard has hit 9th lvl spells, the Beholder BM is still kicking out 3rd's, tops. You're comparing an epic-level creature to non-epic PCs, and of course there's a huge gap. The power gap between lvl 20 and lvl 21 is probably the single largest one-level gap in the game. Any Beholder BM capable of casting even 8th lvl spells has crossed that line.

Yes it's the 2nd strongest class in the game after Planar Sheppard, but as long as we're talking about only Beholders taking it, that's necessary. It would just be nerf, otherwise. And it kind of still is nerf, until CR 21+.

[Heliomance]

Certainly the first two, maybe three levels are an actual drop in power from a standard beholder. Losing one of your at-will eyestalks to learn to cast cantrips? Losing another for first level spells? Definite drop in power. I'd say it probably doesn't start to become worth it until you get fourth level spells out of it. By the time you have ninth level spells, yes, it's sick, wrong and disgusting.

[Tyndmyr]

Key words emphasised.

Non-Epic, a Beholder BM is only casting out 7th lvl spells. Heck, by the time the Wizard has hit 9th lvl spells, the Beholder BM is still kicking out 3rd's, tops. You're comparing an epic-level creature to non-epic PCs, and of course there's a huge gap. The power gap between lvl 20 and lvl 21 is probably the single largest one-level gap in the game. Any Beholder BM capable of casting even 8th lvl spells has crossed that line.

Yes it's the 2nd strongest class in the game after Planar Sheppard, but as long as we're talking about only Beholders taking it, that's necessary. It would just be nerf, otherwise. And it kind of still is nerf, until CR 21+.

I direct your attention to PaO.

[Doc Roc]

I direct your attention to PaO.

And the use of level-drain to wipe away hitdice.

[sonofzeal]

I direct your attention to PaO.

Key words in my post: "as long as we're talking about only Beholders taking it".

Also problematic is the phrase "true Beholder" in the requirements. That's never defined and hence ambiguous and up to DM interpretation. Even the most RAW-fanatical DM could argue that an actual Beholder is more "true" than a PaO'd human. Certainly the counterargument could be made, and there might be a poor unfortunate DM who allows it, but for the time being I'm not going to worry about that.

Beholder Mage is explicitly for Beholders, and on a Beholder it's not really that great until Epic. There's a sweet spot at CR 22-23, yes, but it's also pretty underpowered for most of its levels. And if the class is seriously underpowered most of the time and only overpower for a two level range, I'm not that concerned.

[Gaius Marius]

Please forgive This Playgrounder's ignorance, but where is described this Beholder Mage, and why a beholder with arcane spellcasting seems to terrify everyone here?

[Runestar]

Please forgive This Playgrounder's ignorance, but where is described this Beholder Mage, and why a beholder with arcane spellcasting seems to terrify everyone here?

It is a prc in lords of madness. At each lv, the beholder loses the use of one of its eyestalks, and gets to cast spells of increasing lv (from cantrips to 9th lv).

Its most terrifying ability is to cast 1 spell of each lv per eye per round, meaning that at higher lvs, it can cast 9 spells each round as free actions ranging from lv0 to 9.

[Doc Roc]

Please forgive This Playgrounder's ignorance, but where is described this Beholder Mage, and why a beholder with arcane spellcasting seems to terrify everyone here?

You mistake my hate-fueled glee for terror, I'm afraid. It also is a fast progression arcane class which is.... oddly, rather easy to qualify for. Which says quite a bit about how screwy 3.x is.

[faceroll]

Beholder mage may be the game's single most powerful PrC. It's only meaningful competition is probably Thrallherd or Planar Shepherd. It's really that bad. It's CR-adjustment can be called J, where J is K+N+Base_CR^2, and K and N are arbitrarily large and arbitrarily angry.

I disagree. It gets 1 spell level per level and one extra action per level. At level 10, it's getting 10 spells a round, one for each level of spell. This isn't actually that bad, considering that a CR10ish monster + 10 class levels give it a CR of 20. Against a party of 4 to 6 level 20 characters, you're looking at several million gold worth of items and 2 to 4 actions per player per turn. So the beholder has at best 2 turns on the players, but could be outnumbered by as much as 14 turns.

Also note that it is a single target, so any turn that ends it ends the encounter. Any of its turns it uses to end a player still leaves 3 to 5 more players to contend with, which makes the standard deviations much less scary on the player side of things.

And by turns I mean actions, whatever.

But if you really go for broke, you can turn the BM into a beast. But you can pretty much do the same thing with any full caster. Or a level 3 paladin. Or a 4500gp magic item. But that's a nature of the system, not intrinsic in making the BM as a monster. For players, totally different story.

[Thurbane]

How about the Nagahydra? It casts as a 15th level Sorcerer, with access to Cleric spells, and can cast 5 spells/round. CR 18.

[Runestar]

How about the Nagahydra? It casts as a 15th level Sorcerer, with access to Cleric spells, and can cast 5 spells/round. CR 18.
It comes from serpent kingdoms. That's pretty much self-explanatory. :smallamused:

[Gaius Marius]

It is a prc in lords of madness. At each lv, the beholder loses the use of one of its eyestalks, and gets to cast spells of increasing lv (from cantrips to 9th lv).

Its most terrifying ability is to cast 1 spell of each lv per eye per round, meaning that at higher lvs, it can cast 9 spells each round as free actions ranging from lv0 to 9.

Well, thank you my good sir.

Now, if you could tell me, what stops any beholder to become that? Is there any fluff holding the beholders back?

[Quietus]

Well, thank you my good sir.

Now, if you could tell me, what stops any beholder to become that? Is there any fluff holding the beholders back?

They have to put out their antimagic eye to qualify.

[Eldan]

As said, the low levels are actually pretty bad.

At first level, you lose the use of one eyestalk (which casts an at will spell, usually a useful one), and gain the ability to cast a handful of cantrips.

[Quietus]

Well, thank you my good sir.

Now, if you could tell me, what stops any beholder to become that? Is there any fluff holding the beholders back?

They have to put out their antimagic eye to qualify.

[Eldan]

And that, yes.

[Gaius Marius]

Hehe..

I'll have to remember that PrC. So overpowered. I'll probably make that whole PrC a entire plot-point in itself. Let's say you have an organisation of Magehunters who are dedicated to track down and kill all Beholder Mages before they reach too high a level.

So now, it's a race against the clock, trying to stop the evil before it grew too powerful...

[FMArthur]

As said, the low levels are actually pretty bad.

At first level, you lose the use of one eyestalk (which casts an at will spell, usually a useful one), and gain the ability to cast a handful of cantrips.

Actually they put out two eyestalks for cantrips and first-level spells at Beholder Mage 1.

Also, don't forget that they can know and spontaneously cast any number of Wizard/Sorceror spells - effectively list-wide spontaneity. And they actually have a redundant Eye Ray in Charm Person since they have Charm Monster. It also has Fear, Telekinesis and Inflict Moderate Wounds as eye rays. None of those are all that amazing given that they need a ranged touch attack followed by saves, are fear and mind-affecting, or are just weak, and I would gladly replace any of them for spontaneous access to every 2nd-level Wizard spell at the next level. By the time a Beholder Mage has to give up its Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate or uncapped Sleep Eye Rays that it might care about, the spell access granted in their place is going to absolutely blow those abilities out of the water. Beholder Mages are more dangerous than normal at 2nd level and easily overpowering by 4th.

[Gaius Marius]

Beholder Mages are more dangerous than normal at 2nd level and easily overpowering by 4th.

Definetly a plot point by themselves. A threat to the world that has to be stopped at all cost.

Completely worthy of a dedicated organisation meant to hunt them down and killing them before they grew too powerful :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

It comes from serpent kingdoms. That's pretty much self-explanatory. :smallamused:
Self-explanatory? Err...I meant in relation to the thread topic?

I.e. Nagahydra and Beholder Mage both get to break action economy with many spells/round.

Apologies if I was less than clear...

[Spamotron]

He mean that Serpent Kingdom's monster design is generally considered just as borked as Monster Manual II.

[Doc Roc]

He mean that Serpent Kingdom's monster design is generally considered just as borked as Monster Manual II.

Far more so, actually. MM II has a couple good things.

[faceroll]

He mean that Serpent Kingdom's monster design is generally considered just as borked as Monster Manual II.

Yeah, if it's not a push over it must be borked. Giving monsters real abilities and some action parity is actually good game design. The bad part are abusable things like dominate, charm, diplomacy, gate, polymorph and planar binding which give players access to monster abilities.

[Thurbane]

He mean that Serpent Kingdom's monster design is generally considered just as borked as Monster Manual II.
Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation.

[LordBlades]

Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation.

Serpent Kingdoms (Sarrukh to be exact) is the thing that makes Pun Pun possible.

[Thurbane]

Serpent Kingdoms (Sarrukh to be exact) is the thing that makes Pun Pun possible.
Yeah, but I didn't think too much of the book was broken apart from that. Live and learn. :smallbiggrin:

[Malevolence]

Actually they put out two eyestalks for cantrips and first-level spells at Beholder Mage 1.

Also, don't forget that they can know and spontaneously cast any number of Wizard/Sorceror spells - effectively list-wide spontaneity. And they actually have a redundant Eye Ray in Charm Person since they have Charm Monster. It also has Fear, Telekinesis and Inflict Moderate Wounds as eye rays. None of those are all that amazing given that they need a ranged touch attack followed by saves, are fear and mind-affecting, or are just weak, and I would gladly replace any of them for spontaneous access to every 2nd-level Wizard spell at the next level. By the time a Beholder Mage has to give up its Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate or uncapped Sleep Eye Rays that it might care about, the spell access granted in their place is going to absolutely blow those abilities out of the water. Beholder Mages are more dangerous than normal at 2nd level and easily overpowering by 4th.

Telekinesis is one of their best abilities. The best, if they aren't getting their save DCs way up.

[FMArthur]

Well, I overlooked Slow for some reason, which is only a 3rd level spell he could easily trade the comparatively worse Eye Ray version of it for. So even if you think Telekinesis is good or interesting or something, and choose to hold it above the other four weak Eye Rays, there's almost no sacrifice. He can drop it at the level before he gains it as the spell in exchange for spontaneous access to every fourth level Wizard spell.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Basically, the problem is that the class kicks the CR system in a very naughty place, then proceeds to really now, that kind of language, while inventive, does not have a place at these forums.

It's the same problem that a 10th level Wizard and a 10th level Fighter technically have the same CR, but widely different levels of challenges.

A Beholder mage tosses out an unbelievable number of spells per round. All of them can be Save or Loose abilities. Basically, he's got everything Batman ever thought of having... nine times per round. This is *in addition* to all the action economy abuse that a *normal* arcane caster has at their disposal. This includes Contingency shennanigans. This includes Celerity abuse. This includes familiar nonsense. Everything.

With any kind of half-witted sense of tactics, a Beholder Mage is, purely, a TPK against any but the most highly optimized parties.

[Malevolence]

Well, I overlooked Slow for some reason, which is only a 3rd level spell he could easily trade the comparatively worse Eye Ray version of it for. So even if you think Telekinesis is good or interesting or something, and choose to hold it above the other four weak Eye Rays, there's almost no sacrifice. He can drop it at the level before he gains it as the spell in exchange for spontaneous access to every fourth level Wizard spell.

I'd more question why you don't think Telekinesis is incredibly awesome.

[faceroll]

Basically, the problem is that the class kicks the CR system in a very naughty place, then proceeds to really now, that kind of language, while inventive, does not have a place at these forums.

It's the same problem that a 10th level Wizard and a 10th level Fighter technically have the same CR, but widely different levels of challenges.

A Beholder mage tosses out an unbelievable number of spells per round. All of them can be Save or Loose abilities. Basically, he's got everything Batman ever thought of having... nine times per round. This is *in addition* to all the action economy abuse that a *normal* arcane caster has at their disposal. This includes Contingency shennanigans. This includes Celerity abuse. This includes familiar nonsense. Everything.

With any kind of half-witted sense of tactics, a Beholder Mage is, purely, a TPK against any but the most highly optimized parties.

You're over exaggerating. Going straight beholder mage, to get 9th level spells, you're looking at a CR23 encounter. What does beholder mage 10 do? It's basically like fighting a level 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 3, and 1 arcane caster, except that it can't aim all its spells at a single target, it has one bag of hp, and is still limited to one quicken spell, one move action, one swift action, etc. per round, and the wealth of a single monster. Granted, all the spells use CL20, so that makes those 1st level spells way more likely to last through a dispel or break SR, compared to an actual 1st level wizard, but it really doesn't add that much of a power break.

Beholder Mage, at CR23, against 4 level 20 characters is a very difficult encounter. A 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 3, 1 encounter is easy (EL19). I'm fairly certain I would get more TPKs with the second set up than with the Beholder Mage. At the very least, I could be directing 13+ spells/round at a single opponent. The beholder mage can get what, 4 spells, max, at a single target?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You're over exaggerating. Going straight beholder mage, to get 9th level spells, you're looking at a CR23 encounter. What does beholder mage 10 do? It's basically like fighting a level 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 3, and 1 arcane caster, except that it can't aim all its spells at a single target, it has one bag of hp, and is still limited to one quicken spell, one move action, one swift action, etc. per round, and the wealth of a single monster. Granted, all the spells use CL20, so that makes those 1st level spells way more likely to last through a dispel or break SR, compared to an actual 1st level wizard, but it really doesn't add that much of a power break.

Beholder Mage, at CR23, against 4 level 20 characters is a very difficult encounter. A 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 3, 1 encounter is easy (EL19). I'm fairly certain I would get more TPKs with the second set up than with the Beholder Mage. At the very least, I could be directing 13+ spells/round at a single opponent. The beholder mage can get what, 4 spells, max, at a single target?

13 spells per round? With Time Stop to 'set' spells around, I'm looking at a lot more than that. And I see nothing that limits a Beholder Mage from targeting a single target with everything.

So, let's look at a 3rd level Beholder Mage, shall we? That's what... CR 16? Okay, so... Grease, Glitterdust, and Stinking Cloud. If you've got a weak save, you're officially screwed. Have a nice day. And, if the party keeps together, like most do, that could be a TPK right there.

[Tvtyrant]

13 spells per round? With Time Stop to 'set' spells around, I'm looking at a lot more than that. And I see nothing that limits a Beholder Mage from targeting a single target with everything.

So, let's look at a 3rd level Beholder Mage, shall we? That's what... CR 16? Okay, so... Grease, Glitterdust, and Stinking Cloud. If you've got a weak save, you're officially screwed. Have a nice day. And, if the party keeps together, like most do, that could be a TPK right there.

Fortunately as a party of Monks they have all good saves and laugh it off! Yay OP classes! :3

[Heliomance]

13 spells per round? With Time Stop to 'set' spells around, I'm looking at a lot more than that. And I see nothing that limits a Beholder Mage from targeting a single target with everything.


They can only aim 3 eyestalks into any given 90 degree arc. 4, with the Agile Tyrant feat.

[faceroll]

13 spells per round? With Time Stop to 'set' spells around, I'm looking at a lot more than that. And I see nothing that limits a Beholder Mage from targeting a single target with everything.

So, let's look at a 3rd level Beholder Mage, shall we? That's what... CR 16? Okay, so... Grease, Glitterdust, and Stinking Cloud. If you've got a weak save, you're officially screwed. Have a nice day. And, if the party keeps together, like most do, that could be a TPK right there.

With a caster level of 6. A friggin warlock would just say "no" and dispel everything that came out. The Beholder's spellstalks still function as eye rays, which means only 3 per target (or 4 with agile tyrant).

That's really not that dangerous, tbh. Kobold adepts would pose a larger threat.

[Malevolence]

13 spells per round? With Time Stop to 'set' spells around, I'm looking at a lot more than that. And I see nothing that limits a Beholder Mage from targeting a single target with everything.

So, let's look at a 3rd level Beholder Mage, shall we? That's what... CR 16? Okay, so... Grease, Glitterdust, and Stinking Cloud. If you've got a weak save, you're officially screwed. Have a nice day. And, if the party keeps together, like most do, that could be a TPK right there.

If you have a weak save - especially considering how low Beholder DCs are, it doesn't matter. You were dead long before you encountered the Beholder Mage, at CR 16.

Think of the Beholder as a friendly reminder - if you can fail its saves on anything other than a natural 1, it is telling you that you should delete and reroll up something at least half decent.

[Shining Wrath]

Under that assumption, yes, it's about appropriate.

The problem, however, is that CR =/= CR and Level =/Level.

I'd be willing to bet that a prepared CR 23 beholder mage can take an almost arbitrary number of Fighter 23s, while a Wizard 23 has epic magic and, with some preparation, has a good chance.

What toys do the Fighter 23 get? If a fighter can teleport atop the beholder, sovereign-glue himself to it, and whack away with a +5 greatsword of beholder bane + vorpal customized for eye stalks rather than necks ...

And he's got 20 friends doing the same thing ...

And 30 more with bows magically enhanced to overcome wind, deflection, and the other customary wizard anti-arrow tricks ...

And next round 50 more show up ...

It gets hard to deal with people who can take 400 hit points of damage and keep coming at you from all directions.

[Eloel]

What toys do the Fighter 23 get? If a fighter can teleport atop the beholder, sovereign-glue himself to it, and whack away with a +5 greatsword of beholder bane + vorpal customized for eye stalks rather than necks ...

And he's got 20 friends doing the same thing ...

And 30 more with bows magically enhanced to overcome wind, deflection, and the other customary wizard anti-arrow tricks ...

And next round 50 more show up ...

It gets hard to deal with people who can take 400 hit points of damage and keep coming at you from all directions.
Then again, with the wealth of arbitrarily many fighter23s, you might as well bribe the beholder mage into leaving them alone.

Edit: Also, wow, necromancy. Beholders do that?

[Deathra13]

Although easy to overcome dont forget that the capstone is sr=to hd maxing at 30 that can convert resisted spells into hp. With a bit of optimization I believe you could amp that up to making it a caster who is largely getting healed by other casters. Though I could be wrong as Ive only spent brief time looking through it.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Interestingly, one of the classic anti-beholder strategies is still quite effective against a Beholder Mage: AMF, and a good archer (or two or three). Of course, a Beholder Mage worth his salt in this situation would either GTFO, or figure out something else creative (metamagic'd orb spells?); still, AMF's a decent tactic.

[Waddacku]

You're over exaggerating. Going straight beholder mage, to get 9th level spells, you're looking at a CR23 encounter. What does beholder mage 10 do? It's basically like fighting a level 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 3, and 1 arcane caster, except that it can't aim all its spells at a single target, it has one bag of hp, and is still limited to one quicken spell, one move action, one swift action, etc. per round, and the wealth of a single monster. Granted, all the spells use CL20, so that makes those 1st level spells way more likely to last through a dispel or break SR, compared to an actual 1st level wizard, but it really doesn't add that much of a power break.

Beholder Mage, at CR23, against 4 level 20 characters is a very difficult encounter. A 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 3, 1 encounter is easy (EL19). I'm fairly certain I would get more TPKs with the second set up than with the Beholder Mage. At the very least, I could be directing 13+ spells/round at a single opponent. The beholder mage can get what, 4 spells, max, at a single target?

You are disregarding that the Beholder Mage is completely free to metamagic up those low level spells. Only the spell itself needs be of the appropriate level for the eye stalk. The spell slot used doesn't matter.