Does Dark heresy have class tiers?

[profitofrage]

I have been wondering, Its often that you see talks about having to nerf Wizards in DnD and about how certain builds are undefeatable.
Tell me Playground does my favorite game of choice Dark heresy suffer from the same problems when put under the microscope?
Is there a tier system for DH? is the adept a Tier 6 class? Is the psyker a Tier 1?

[Comet]

There is, though I'm not sure if there is a universal agreement on the specifics.

One thing we can all agree on, I'd reckon, is that psykers win at everything. Or lose in very flashy ways.
On the bottom, we could have the adept. I rarely see that one used.

The thing is, though, none of this matters. D&D is about combat to such a degree that it is easy to see which classes are 'the best' purely based on their performance in delivering violence.

In DH, though, you have investigation, sneaking, piloting, thinking, reading, poetry and all that good stuff we normal fleshy humans would do. Most people go into a game of DH with the same mentality as in a game of Call of Cthulhu: we may not win, but we'll do our best.

Sure, D&D can have that too, but the design of the game is still such that it encourages being effective in cleaning out dungeons or other such dangerous locations. That requires a different level of balance.
In DH, even if your character sucks mechanically, you can still roleplay some moments of success, whether by underhanded backstabbing or stumbling upon an ancient relic in a hive city ditch or just by having some obscure occult skill that comes into play at just the right moment. It's all much less absolute on the win-lose metre, since even the powerhouses can have difficulty against a majority of the foes you are facing.

All in all, Dark Heresy is easy to break if you want to optimize. Or so I've heard, since numbers are not my thing. Off the top of my head, I think I've heard psykers, tech priest and full-auto firearms named a few times in connection to being gods in the game.
The game isn't designed for balance or 'fairness', though, so this is to be expected. If you want to break it, only the GM is there to stop you. And in the end, even if you do make a god-tier character, you might not last any longer than your adept buddy with every skill point put into the field of lore.

[profitofrage]

This is very true, I am however deciding (for this topic) that we discuss there use in a more typical "dungeon crawl" (and by typical i mean..for DnD rather then DH.)
Im talking more about builds and particularly devistating ones (even if it still cant hold up against Bloodletters)

Even if we talk about NPC builds that just cant be beat :P

[Weasel of Doom]

I don't think DH is a game which lends itself to a simplistic tier system and I've never found any balance concerns.

In most cases I think every class can contribute to the extent that no player feels overshadowed.

In a dungeon-crawl Space Hulk-crawl then an adept isn't going to be so useful in combat encounters but an autogun and suppressive fire or a handful of grenades allows him to contribute significantly while the assassin DeathKill McBadass does his thing.

That being said, I dislike the guardsman class A LOT because the high xp costs on their non-combat skills and traits make it much harder for them to contribute in a variety of encounters. The stuff they get in IH mitigates this to some extent but I still don't like them that much. Especially when I don't see them as much better fighters than arbitrators, assassins, techpriests or psykers.

It's also definately easy to build overpowered characters (a telekinetic psyker with all possible WP upgrades for example) but I think DH gives the GM a lot of tools to prevent this getting out of hand.

[MickJay]

Psykers, once they get to rating of 3+, can break the game with their powers. They can also get everyone around them killed with perils of the warp long before that. Problems with psykers aside, all the classes can be built to be highly effective in combat, depending on the equipment they have available. Guardsmen, while versatile in combat, are probably least interesting to play, due to limited non-combat skills (they have all the driving skills, and military-oriented knowledges, but that's about it).

[profitofrage]

Mmmm Guardsmen is a very limited class. There i think the only class that gets bulging biceps though, and if not that...Ive seen Guardsmen get to 20 wounds at level 5.


Also psykers? are they really that overpowered? I mean granted Force Barrage can do MASSIVE damage. But break the game? There are alot of anti psychic options out there i think. There is a sorcery spell that makes you immune to Impact damage for 1D5 rounds? :P
Theres always Nulls, or sanctified armors. Or some of the lovely new gear in the new Ecclisiarchy based book (forget the name).

[Leon]

No and it doesn't need them.

Some classes may feel a lil left out depending what your game bent is (Trigger happy Guard in a intrigue game etc) but overall each class is useful most of the time

[Saph]

Having just finished up a DH campaign . . .

Psykers have the most potential variety and the most potential power. They also have an incredibly high mortality rate due to the Perils of the Warp table, which can hit the psyker and everyone around him with all kinds of hideously lethal results. Since EVERY use of psyker power risks Perils of the Warp, spamming powers is discouraged.

Combat characters, on the other hand, are just as good at killing things as psykers. Sure, a psyker who hits rank 4 or so can fry enemies with various nasty effects, but a well-built gun user can be shooting heretics from rank 1 as well or better. There's less difference between the non-psychic characters - an Assassin, a Scum, an Arbitrator, and a Guardsman can often fill very similar roles.

In our campaign, the longest-running characters were an Assassin, a Psyker, and an Arbitrator. The consensus at the end was that the Arbitrator was the toughest, being able to take the most fire; the Psyker had the greatest variety of abilities, most importantly healing; and the Assassin was the best at just killing stuff. All three tended to be equally important in a battle; the Arbitrator soaked up attacks, the Assassin killed off the enemies, and the Psyker healed everyone afterwards.

[MickJay]

Also psykers? are they really that overpowered? I mean granted Force Barrage can do MASSIVE damage. But break the game? There are alot of anti psychic options out there i think. There is a sorcery spell that makes you immune to Impact damage for 1D5 rounds? :P
Theres always Nulls, or sanctified armors. Or some of the lovely new gear in the new Ecclisiarchy based book (forget the name).

They are both overpowered, and a massive threat to anyone who's near, due to possibility of invoking perils of the warp (which happens to even those psykers who are conservative with using their powers). Anti psychic options are available, sure, and the most powerful NPCs are likely to have access to one or two of them (likely in the form of their own psyker). As to those you suggested - impact damage immunity won't help you when you're being set on fire, or mind-controlled. Nulls are extremely rare, and there shouldn't be more than a few on an even a densely populated planet (and even then, they might not have even been identified, and are just random civilians). On top of that, a null's "area of effect" is not very big, either. Sanctified armors and similar equipment are nice, but again, they're quite rare, and probably stuff like that is kept secret from the populace, further limiting their uses.

Even simplest of tricks psykers know can, if used smartly, alter whole encounters (which I've seen done quite a few times). Higher level powers can potentially remove the need for even having to fight, or might allow PCs to access information they're seeking without even having to infiltrate a hostile organization personally.

[Tyndmyr]

Everything that has classes has some that are better and worse. The question is one of scale relative to your challenges. In some games, it just doesn't really matter much if one character is more powerful. This might be because characters all end up similar, or because the opposition is so overwhelming(CoC).

Dark heresy doesn't strike me as being particularly problematic because of the setting. The world is terrible and all grimdark, and you will likely face horrible things that will challenge you all. You're probably all useful, but facing near certain bad fates. The exact degree ends up not mattering that much.

[One Tin Soldier]

Having just finished up a DH campaign . . .

Psykers have the most potential variety and the most potential power. They also have an incredibly high mortality rate due to the Perils of the Warp table, which can hit the psyker and everyone around him with all kinds of hideously hilariously lethal results. Since EVERY use of psyker power risks Perils of the Warp, spamming powers is discouraged.


Fixed that for you :smallwink:

But really, the perils of the warp really do serve to balance out psykers on their own. I was in a DH game where our team's psyker was incredibly unlucky with those rolls. Seriously, you know that you roll perils of the warp too often when you start having serious conversations about which Peril would be most beneficial to the current situation.

[faceroll]

TThe thing is, though, none of this matters. D&D is about combat to such a degree that it is easy to see which classes are 'the best' purely based on their performance in delivering violence.

That's only part of what the tiers measure. Tier 6 can end combat faster than many tier 3, for instance. Not much stands up to the over-9000 of a charging frenzied berserker.

[WitchSlayer]

Psykers are far and away most powerful
Adepts are surprisingly powerful as well but take a while to reach their power level.

And Profit, not only can Tech Priests also get bulging biceps, they can be absolute beasts when it comes to taking damage, way more so than Guardsmen

[king.com]

This is very true, I am however deciding (for this topic) that we discuss there use in a more typical "dungeon crawl" (and by typical i mean..for DnD rather then DH.)
Im talking more about builds and particularly devistating ones (even if it still cant hold up against Bloodletters)

Even if we talk about NPC builds that just cant be beat :P

Problem is, getting the optimized builds for DH still can result in a lucky bolt round decapitating your character. Combat is extremely dangerous in dark heresy and shouldn't be the complete focus.

Dungeon crawls simply do not happen.

[MickJay]

Problem is, getting the optimized builds for DH still can result in a lucky bolt round decapitating your character. Combat is extremely dangerous in dark heresy and shouldn't be the complete focus.

Dungeon crawls simply do not happen.

That is quite true. A single shot from a powerful weapon (or a single burst from a decent one) can reduce a well-armored and tough PC from full health to crippled. From my experience, most fights either fit into an "easy" or "highly lethal" category.

In addition, optimizing DH characters, as far as making choices is concerned, is quite limited: decent weapons and armors may or may not be available (it's up to GM), but with character build, there simply are "better" and "worse" choices, depending on concept. Players have to spend a fixed amount of XP before they get to pick from next rank, and it's quite rare that one will spend much time considering what to take. For someone who doesn't have to look up what all the talents do, it takes a minute or two to plan the XP spending for a whole rank.

[Denomar]

Technically there is. But you'd have to do something dumb like one person playing a deathwatch space marine, where everyone else is one of the more normal classes. Otherwise everything felt on a relatively normal level of heroically ineffective when I played.

[Engine]

I will say that in Dark Heresy all classes fall in the Tier 3-4 range.
But I'll add that in Dark Heresy the Tier system works poorly. Tier system was designed with in mind D&D 3.5, where some classes have practically omnipotence and others are stuck with nothing but a pointy stick. In Dark Heresy this simply doesn't happen.
Of course Psykers are more powerful than other classes - at least in my opinion - but Perils of the Warp most of the time take care of power-spamming or would be gods. You could expect that a Psyker would be cautious.

[MickJay]

...or you could expect him to be mentally unstable and trying to "make himself invisible" every single time when it could, potentially, be advantageous, leading him to causing psychic phenomena come up every single session, and perils roughly every other one. Miraculously, nobody died because of the perils, even though they did make the game much more "interesting" a good few times. :smallbiggrin:

[Comet]

Yeah, in our group it's pretty much always assumed that any player controlled psyker will be a volcano of rage and utterly lacking in any sort of self control.

The perils are just way too fun, what can I say.

[Surrealistik]

Of the non-Ascension classes, Psykers are god tier.

Anyone who tells you otherwise either doesn't know how to optimize or is irrationally exaggerating the risk of Perils of the Warp which can be significantly diminished with a number of talents, or even eliminated with fettered power use. In Ascension and high level DH, fettered casting is often more than enough to annihilate anything and anyone, or otherwise do anything you like with psionics basically risk free.

As for null countermeasures, etc... Telekinetic flinging powers with massive overbleed work just fine against those. For the most part, the only way to beat a powerful Psyker is to be a more powerful Psyker.

Of the Ascension classes, Psychic Inquisitors, Primaris Psykers and Vindicare Assassins are god tier in that order.

[WitchSlayer]

Of the non-Ascension classes, Psykers are god tier.

Anyone who tells you otherwise either doesn't know how to optimize or is irrationally exaggerating the risk of Perils of the Warp which can be significantly diminished with a number of talents, or even eliminated with fettered power use. In Ascension and high level DH, fettered casting is often more than enough to annihilate anything and anyone, or otherwise do anything you like with psionics basically risk free.

As for null countermeasures, etc... Telekinetic flinging powers with massive overbleed work just fine against those. For the most part, the only way to beat a powerful Psyker is to be a more powerful Psyker.

Of the Ascension classes, Inquisitors, Primaris Psykers and Vindicare Assassins are god tier in that order.

TECH PRIESTS GET THE SHAFT YET AGAIN.

[The Glyphstone]

TECH PRIESTS GET THE SHAFT YET AGAIN.

Of course they do, it'd be heresy for anyone else to get it. Shafts are a key component in many holy machines, after all.

[PanNarrans]

First Dark Heresy one shot our group played, the psyker rolled Perils, became a Daemonhost, and killed us all. We... kinda haven't played psykers since.

Can they be fun?

[Kaun]

As it has been said many times Psyker is at the top.

I have seen some near unkillable Tech priests tho.

[Surrealistik]

Tech Priests are definitely high up, with their only real weakness (though it is a major one) being their complete ineptitude at social interaction.

[Saph]

First Dark Heresy one shot our group played, the psyker rolled Perils, became a Daemonhost, and killed us all. We... kinda haven't played psykers since.

Can they be fun?

Sure, as long as you accept that every time you use your powers, you're running an ever-increasing chance of horribly killing, maiming, or corrupting yourself and everyone around you. :smallwink:

For the record, the chance of Perils of the Warp is about 2.5% per power dice. For every Perils of the Warp roll, you have about a 10% chance of instant death or possession - if you're lucky you'll get one of the ones that only causes general chaos and corruption/insanity. From what I've seen, a minority of psykers try to play carefully and stay alive. The majority decide that since they're on a one-way trip downhill anyway they might as well strap on some roller skates and enjoy the ride. :smallbiggrin:

[Surrealistik]

Of course, the risks become non-existent when you exploit talents like Favoured of the Warp, Invocation to cut down on Psi dice (especially out of combat), and Fettered casting.

[Kaun]

From what I've seen, a minority of psykers try to play carefully and stay alive. The majority decide that since they're on a one-way trip downhill anyway they might as well strap on some roller skates and enjoy the ride. :smallbiggrin:

I am yet to see a psyker played carefully.

Hell i have seen psykers use powers to perform mundane tasks that they could quite easly do normally just so they look "cooler".

[Saph]

Of course, the risks become non-existent when you exploit talents like Favoured of the Warp, Invocation to cut down on Psi dice (especially out of combat), and Fettered casting.

Mm-hm. I'd be interested to hear you explain how a standard rank 1-3 psyker can make the risk "non-existent", i.e. reduce it to zero.

[Surrealistik]

They don't obviously; they're stuck using cantrips (which are still really good) and autofire weapons until they can access risk prevention measures. Fettered casting at Psi 2 still allows for some measure of psychic abuse.

All told, there is a small window during which the Psyker might be overshadowed by other classes; beyond that the class is godlike, with phenomenal cosmic powers.

[Leon]

All told, there is a small window during which the Psyker might be overshadowed by other classes; beyond that the class is godlike, with phenomenal cosmic powers.

Up until the moment where it goes pop and all hell breaks loose

[Surrealistik]

Up until the moment where it goes pop and all hell breaks loose

But that's the thing; with the risk reducing talents, Invocation use to minimize Psi dice rolls, and fettered casting, that just never happens.

[profitofrage]

Dark Hersy has no fettered setting for casting psychic powers. Thats Rogue trader and Deathwatch. In DH you always have that risk...period.
There may be talents that cut down on those sorts of things but fettered is definably not one of them THUS the risk can never be 0% or anything lower then 2% unless there not even using the powers they spent so much XP for.
They always have to roll 1 Dice no matter HOW long they invocate for so theres always that small chance they will lose out.

[king.com]

Yea the sanctioned psyker is always at risk, and if you dont have any fate points, every power is a potential death or psychic power waiting to happen. Not to mention the potential existance of enemies with hexagrammic wards or bringing along an untounchable.

Not to mention if hes someone who casts power willy nilly and ever fails, a lynch mob would form (even sanctioned a psyker is still a psyker). Mechanically hes potentially better than other classes but he also possesses a very large list of weaknesses not to mention the overwhelming social stigma of being a psyker AND having that big branding of sanctioning doesn't actually spell 'subtle'.

[profitofrage]

Indeed, If a psyker is walking around and acting overpowered. Its because the DM isnt playing the setting right.

[Wings of Peace]

It depends on your group but generally in my experience with the system it goes Psyker > Techpriest > everything else in the late game save a few special builds.

In the early game where everyone dies easily I would say it goes Psyker > everything else.

The reason for this is that if you optimize heavily your Psyker can abuse simpler powers pretty easily and late game the Techpriest gets a lot of options that can make him near impossible to harm excluding Psyker powers and tank grade fire arms.

It's true the Psyker is risky, and the Imperium will definitely smite you down if you look to be gaining power too rapidly for where they want you, but if you play smart and optimize you can do just about whatever you want.

Edit: As others have said though a lot of it depends on your DM and the setting. In the fluff the Imperium will ****-you-up if you look like you're gaining more power than your superiors are comfortable with. And to give you an idea of how far they will go to ****-you-up, this is the empire that will have an entire planet eradicated if there are reports of daemonic influence.

[profitofrage]

The techpriest I would say would be top tier for that very reason.
Every potential power gain, every skill trait you gain besides forbidden lores is theoretically an acceptable thing to the mechanicus and hence the Imperium.
A psyker who can blow up buildings might be executed...A techpriest whos similarly plowerful is considered a Venerable Magos and quickly found a position worthy of them.

[MickJay]

On the other hand, the very presence of a techpriest in the group makes it highly conspicuous and infiltrating anything suddenly becomes much, much harder. Add to that techpriests' ineptitude in social situations, and you end up having to leave the poor guy in your van half of the time. :smallbiggrin:

[Surrealistik]

Dark Hersy has no fettered setting for casting psychic powers. Thats Rogue trader and Deathwatch. In DH you always have that risk...period.
There may be talents that cut down on those sorts of things but fettered is definably not one of them THUS the risk can never be 0% or anything lower then 2% unless there not even using the powers they spent so much XP for.
They always have to roll 1 Dice no matter HOW long they invocate for so theres always that small chance they will lose out.

That's true until you get to Ascension, in which case you can use fettered casting/manifesting as much as you want (and you'll never fail any threshold even with half your dice count). Furthermore, Fate Points as a safety net remains an effective way to manage risk throughout your career. Once you get Favoured of the Warp furthermore, which _is_ accessible in DH, your need to spend FPs to avoid disaster declines dramatically.

As for the whole 'lynch mob' bit, that assumes you're completely obvious about using your power in public places _and_ the citizens know your Psyker is responsible _and_ they disregard Inquisitorial authority (or you can't otherwise employ it), _and_ you're not able to escape, kill or otherwise subdue said lynch mob.

Again, Hexagrammic Wards and nulls etc, aren't impressive countermeasures to Psykers save in low ranks. At higher ones, overbleed Telekinetics, or mind control Telepathy on the null's allies can easily deal with psychic immunes. I've personally used these sorts of countermeasures against null types the DM threw at me in exasperation; they failed miserably.

So what keeps a well played Psyker in check? Basically nothing except borderline unfair DMing that seeks to penalize the character for playing the game and optimizing.

Tech Priests, while strong, are not anywhere near in the same league as the Psyker save in games with the most unfair and brutal of DMs who will have a Psyker killed by his employers precisely because he is that much more powerful than everyone else. Note that this is a weak excuse since Psykers are rarely killed because of their power alone so much as because they have been demonstrated as unable to control it.

[profitofrage]

As for the whole 'lynch mob' bit, that assumes you're completely obvious about using your power in public places _and_ the citizens know your Psyker is responsible _and_ they disregard Inquisitorial authority (or you can't otherwise employ it), _and_ you're not able to kill or otherwise subdue said lynch mob.

Again, Hexagrammic Wards and nulls etc, aren't impressive countermeasures to Psykers save in low ranks. At higher ones, overbleed Telekinetics, or mind control Telepathy on the null's allies can easily deal with psychic immunes.

So what keeps a well played Psyker in check? Basically nothing except borderline unfair DMing that seeks to penalize the character for playing the game and optimizing.


Acension was a suppiment released mostly to allow DH character to balance with those of Rouge Trader and Deathwatch..it is an almost entirely different game. By that stage you could be an unoptimised adept specialised in knowledge of feet and still order the destruction of worlds.

Psychic powers are not concealable unless specifically stated. They are the manifestation of reality bending powers...that stuff gets noticed just like a null makes all those around them uncomfortable. Psykers are rare..very much so...If your psyker is around...is it that unreasonable that they would assume said crazy occurances was there fault?
Overbleed? unless we are talking Acension again...which we arnt because then i may as well include navigators and astartes librarians to. There is still PLENTY of risk on causing phenominon...all of which can be pinned to the psyker as per the discription. Causing the world's physics to melt in your area IS reason to kill you IN THIS SETTING.
It is NOT hard to find a psyker in an area unless there using up there powers TO hide. Theres a premade campaign FFG provide us where the big bad organisation carry small psyker detectors to pinpoint there victims.
That is WHY they start you off with a knife your expected to Off yourself with.
Mind control? first off Nulls are immune to that..completly. dont know what made you think they wernt. Secondly Mind control is one of the few things other carreers gain traits to fight against. Indeed it is not THAT rare for someone to have higher willpower then the party psyker. Especially the Priest.
And you dont need hexogramic wards...anything blessed by a 5th level priest or higher gains benefits against Psychic powers and sorcery as per the new Ecclisiarschy suppliment.

In a setting where psychics are sent all the way to TERRA in order to ensure there not likely to kill people..I am VERY sure it is not at all unreasonable for a DM to rule that because your Psyker went around thinking hes crash hot to get hung for being a witch. Regardless of what organisation he works for.
The Inquisitors would probably only be pissed long enough to remember that you must have been stupid to think you could get away without being discreet.

[Surrealistik]

A couple of things:

Yes, an Adept can call in Exterminatus, but that requires some impressive favour currying and Requisition checks, which a psyker Inquisitor is also very much capable of. Essentially, all other things being equal, the psyker has phenomenal cosmic powers, and these aren't contingent on requisition checks or conditional/situational factors (like not having the forces in the area to honour your requisition check).

By the way, it's worth noting that Techpriests are probably in the worst career in the game for the purposes of making Requisition checks due to absolutely rock bottom Fellowship (another reason they cannot hope to be anywhere near in the same tier as a Psyker).


Unless stated there are no 'giveaway' visuals or other effects (a lightning bolt coming out of your brain would be one; your enemies having spontaneous muscle spasms would not) associated with using psychic powers. Yes, some enemies might have Psyniscience or specialized tools to determine the source of the psychic emanations, but your average imperial citizen would not. Again the risks of a 'lynch' are minimal save for the most obvious displays of power (or Phenomena/Perils). I don't disagree that the DM would be within his rights to rule a lynch if your psyker is played poorly and uses every obvious and flashy power he can imagine in full view of superstitious imperials.


On the subject of mind control, I specifically said the null's allies could be controlled, not the null. The null you kill with his mind controlled friends and/or heavy bits of steel you toss at/drop on him telekinetically.


Yes, it is rare for characters to have superior Will to the Psyker. This is especially true in Ascension, where a Psyker can easily have Willpower in excess of greater daemons like the Lord of Change.


Hexagrammic wards or anything of the sort are inconsequential to high rank Psykers, particularly those with Telekinetic powers.


Lastly, Inquisitors may kill you for being explicit for your powers when a mission demands stealth and discretion (as they would any other character), but they would not simply because you are far more powerful than the rest of the party if your character is played well, and uses his powers as necessary.

[Ranos]

To answer the question, my view on it :
Tier 0 - Thy name I keep adept - Hahahaha no.

Tier 1 - Psykers - Can do pretty much everything, and if played well, minimize the consequences. No, the fluff and the setting don't change that.

Tier 2 - Battle sisters, Techpriests - Those bring both utility and ass-kicking. The faith powers allows sisters to have impressive utility, or simply to kick even more ass, but they are limited (in number and by fate). The bolter and power armor at rank 1 is just topping on the cake. Techpriests can be huge tanks, and the tech-use is very helpful as well.

Tier 3 - The rest - Combat ability varies between the other classes, but not THAT much, and they make up for it with utility.


I'm not taking ascension into account because I'm not too familiar with it, and it is incredibly poorly balanced.

[The Glyphstone]

I thought Adepts were horrible?

[Surrealistik]

Compared to a Psyker (or at least a high rank Psyker) I don't find Thy Name I Keep to be anywhere close to a Psyker's power. A boon of your choice from a Daemonic Pact is great early on, but an Adept with this background package definitely gets overshadowed by the godlike Psyker later on (who ends up being vastly more powerful than the Adept's daemon).

[nyarlathotep]

To answer the question, my view on it :
Tier 0 - Thy name I keep adept - Hahahaha no.

Tier 1 - Psykers - Can do pretty much everything, and if played well, minimize the consequences. No, the fluff and the setting don't change that.

Tier 2 - Battle sisters, Techpriests - Those bring both utility and ass-kicking. The faith powers allows sisters to have impressive utility, or simply to kick even more ass, but they are limited (in number and by fate). The bolter and power armor at rank 1 is just topping on the cake. Techpriests can be huge tanks, and the tech-use is very helpful as well.

Tier 3 - The rest - Combat ability varies between the other classes, but not THAT much, and they make up for it with utility.

I would honestly say this is probably right assuming the adept is a joke.

This is because even in D&D tiers are not about combat ability tiers are about class flexibility and ability to deal with challenges combat, social, or puzzle as effectively as possible. If tiers were about combat ability barbarians would be high tier due to being able to deal hundreds of points of damage per round, but they are not. Wizards in D&D are high tier because they can deal that damage and charm people in social encounters, flight over terrain obstacles, aid evacuation efforts by teleporting dozens of people at a time, or planeshift to hell in order to rescue a person who made a deal with a devil.

[Ranos]

Compared to a Psyker (or at least a high rank Psyker) I don't find Thy Name I Keep to be anywhere close to a Psyker's power. A boon of your choice from a Daemonic Pact is great early on, but an Adept with this background package definitely gets overshadowed by the godlike Psyker later on (who ends up being vastly more powerful than the Adept's daemon).

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Some boons are incredibly powerful and, with absolutely no chance of them backfiring unlike powers, you can spam the hell out of them.

Consider, for example, a Thy Name I keep adept with the Mastery of Bluff boon. Now, sure, a psyker can mind control people, briefly, but with a few limiters - he needs to invoke if he doesn't want to take high risks, he needs to beat the target's willpower and anti-psy devices if applicable, and so on.

The adept just walks up to the psyker, tells him "Hey, guess what, you're actually a duck", rolls his optimized bluff against a difficulty of +0, and the psyker goes back to quacking uselessly. And if he doesn't even want to roll, the adept can just spend a fate point and autowin. That's just one power. There's a ton more.


I thought Adepts were horrible?
Adepts are pretty bad in core, so they made sure to give them nice stuff in the splats. They're pretty nice now, but Thy Name I keep was just going too far.

[FelixG]

I am yet to see a psyker played carefully.

Hell i have seen psykers use powers to perform mundane tasks that they could quite easly do normally just so they look "cooler".

THIS....oh god....

I have seen a PC die because his character was too lazy to walk across the room to get a datapad...

[Leon]

Surrealistik loves his Pysker and wont take anything less.

They are much like Wizards in D&D - the have uses but are not the be all or end all of a group, you can do plenty without either of them.

[Surrealistik]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Some boons are incredibly powerful and, with absolutely no chance of them backfiring unlike powers, you can spam the hell out of them.

Consider, for example, a Thy Name I keep adept with the Mastery of Bluff boon. Now, sure, a psyker can mind control people, briefly, but with a few limiters - he needs to invoke if he doesn't want to take high risks, he needs to beat the target's willpower and anti-psy devices if applicable, and so on.

The adept just walks up to the psyker, tells him "Hey, guess what, you're actually a duck", rolls his optimized bluff against a difficulty of +0, and the psyker goes back to quacking uselessly. And if he doesn't even want to roll, the adept can just spend a fate point and autowin. That's just one power. There's a ton more.

First of all that's actually not possible in DH as per the RAW. Also, Psykers have some of the best if not the best Perception in the game when it comes to the opposed check. They also get Scrutiny as a trained skill, and can further enhance it with buffs.

Second, the Psyker can mind control someone for however long he can sustain the domination (which can be basically indefinite). This is doubly true when it comes to Seed Mind, which is essentially permanent mind control. Furthermore this is true mind control; you can force the target to do anything, so long as you make the Opposed Willpower Test.

Third, mind controlling (and psychic powers in general) involves minimal risk if you have at least Favoured of the Warp. Ascended Psykers can mind control (or do anything else) easily at no risk whatsoever.

Finally, you end up with an Adept that's a one trick pony, or at least a one trick pony when it comes to things he can do in a truly godlike capacity. In the meanwhile the Psyker can do basically anything with the same or better proficiency, or at the very least a much wider range of things.

Again, I think people really overstate the limiters. Yes, Phenomenon and Perils are legitimate limiters of the Psyker for a small window (assuming you've spent all your Fate Points), but once you get Favoured of the Warp that limiter weakens dramatically. Between that, FPs and Invocation you're set until Ascension, at which point you will never have to risk Perils (or Phenomenon) ever again.

Also, it's less that I love Psykers, and more that I recognize them for what they are: a poorly designed, massively overpowered career that if properly played ultimately outshines virtually everyone at almost everything, including (but certainly not limited to) solving intrigues, spying, healing, killing, enduring ungodly amounts of punishment, sensing enemies, and even social interaction.

[Trekkin]

What does Thy Name I Keep do, and where is it?

I can't recall any major differences in power when played by people who are experienced enough with the class to beware the risks; the worst I've seen has been Psykers getting generally minor inconveniences with Perils of the Warp over and over, which is being incredibly lucky rather than exploiting any imbalance in the system, followed Tech-priests making themselves into tanks at a rate controlled by available Thrones, medical facilities, and ammo.

[Nero24200]

I'd say that the classes don't really fall into different tiers in DH. An optimised Tier 1 class in D'n'D can not only make others obselete, but also become just about untouchable.

In Dark Hersey, even optmised characters can be put down with enough force. It's also harder for classes to step on each others toes since they all generally have something they are better at than others (Adept, for instance, gets lore skills that others don't, the Tech-Priest has access to unique implants that only he gets etc).

The only class that can really step on the toes of others is the Psycher, but unlike D'n'D classes it comes with a heavy drawback (in that every time you use your powers you put yourself and others at risk).

[Surrealistik]

There is no bringing down an Ascension Psyker with Unnatural WP 3x (true it's the last rank of Ascension, but you could make it 2x and there'd be no difference), WP 90+, and Preternatural Awareness (+hundreds to his Initiative, he will _always_ go first), along with his ridiculous Perception/Scrutiny score, and all the immunity/damage resist or negating/dodge buffs he can easily maintain. He furthermore can do thousands upon thousands of damage at-will with Force Barrage, or 'mere' hundreds with Telekinetic tossing vs psychic immune targets. This is just a fraction of what such a Psyker can do. If he is also a Master Sorcerer, it gets even worse. This is the sort of character that can bring down Greater Daemons and Titans with casual ease using nothing but mind bullets.

While I suppose it's technically true that he can be put down with 'enough force' the amount required is basically ridiculous and completely disproportionate to any other build/career in the game.

[Ranos]

First of all that's actually not possible in DH as per the RAW. Also, Psykers have some of the best if not the best Perception in the game when it comes to the opposed check. They also get Scrutiny as a trained skill, and can further enhance it with buffs.

Second, the Psyker can mind control someone for however long he can sustain the domination (which can be basically indefinite). This is doubly true when it comes to Seed Mind, which is essentially permanent mind control. Furthermore this is true mind control; you can force the target to do anything, so long as you make the Opposed Willpower Test.

Third, mind controlling (and psychic powers in general) involves minimal risk if you have at least Favoured of the Warp. Ascended Psykers can mind control (or do anything else) easily at no risk whatsoever.

Finally, you end up with an Adept that's a one trick pony, or at least a one trick pony when it comes to things he can do in a truly godlike capacity. In the meanwhile the Psyker can do basically anything with the same or better proficiency, or at the very least a much wider range of things.

Again, I think people really overstate the limiters. Yes, Phenomenon and Perils are legitimate limiters of the Psyker for a small window (assuming you've spent all your Fate Points), but once you get Favoured of the Warp that limiter weakens dramatically. Between that, FPs and Invocation you're set until Ascension, at which point you will never have to risk Perils (or Phenomenon) ever again.

Also, it's less that I love Psykers, and more that I recognize them for what they are: a poorly designed, massively overpowered career that if properly played ultimately outshines virtually everyone at almost everything, including (but certainly not limited to) solving intrigues, spying, healing, killing, enduring ungodly amounts of punishment, sensing enemies, and even social interaction.

Ah, yes, after checking it out, Mastery of Deceive will not work on PCs, only NPCs. Where NPCs are concerned, it absolutely works that way by RAW though.

A thy name I keep adept is a one-trick pony, but it's a damn good trick. Sure, once he gets to a high enough rank, the psyker is powerful. But the adept's trick is world-breaking, in the way high level D&D mages can break the assumptions of the setting. Thy name I keep adepts could literally walk in Terra and repair the golden throne if they wanted to. At rank 1.


There is no bringing down an Ascension Psyker
Yes, but that's Ascension. The game that brought you Vindicare assassins that can dodge 32 times per turn, and can even dodge the undodgeable, solar-exalted like.

By the time you get there, if you really want to get rid of the psyker, just nuke the city he's in. Or the planet. Won't bring down a vindicare though, he'll just dodge the exterminatus and wait for a space-cab :smallbiggrin:

[Surrealistik]

Ah, yes, after checking it out, Mastery of Deceive will not work on PCs, only NPCs. Where NPCs are concerned, it absolutely works that way by RAW though.

A thy name I keep adept is a one-trick pony, but it's a damn good trick. Sure, once he gets to a high enough rank, the psyker is powerful. But the adept's trick is world-breaking, in the way high level D&D mages can break the assumptions of the setting. Thy name I keep adepts could literally walk in Terra and repair the golden throne if they wanted to. At rank 1.

Ascendent Psykers aren't world breaking (in multiple ways) if properly and intelligently played?

Also where is this Mastery of Deceive, and where does it say that it is essentially mind control?

Lastly, what's stopping a Psyker (or any other character) from drawing up a dark pact and usurping these advantages (and more) _plus_ enjoying their already existing power?



Yes, but that's Ascension. The game that brought you Vindicare assassins that can dodge 32 times per turn, and can even dodge the undodgeable, solar-exalted like.

By the time you get there, if you really want to get rid of the psyker, just nuke the city he's in. Or the planet. Won't bring down a vindicare though, he'll just dodge the exterminatus and wait for a space-cab :smallbiggrin:

Doesn't work that way. Main issue with Temple Assassin is that the DM is explicitly given permission to rule that anything a character couldn't normally dodge remains undodgable, and no DM in the world is going to allow a Vindicare to dodge something like a global holocaust (btw, how would he survive the subsequent hostile environment even if he could?).

In the meanwhile the Psyker can fly off the planet, teleport, protect himself with an indestructible stasis bubble, gain immunity to energy damage, etc... and all while being relatively safe from DM intervention/fiat.

Vindicares are strong, but even they have nothing on the Ascendent Psyker.

[Leon]

In the meanwhile the Psyker can fly off the planet, teleport, protect himself with an indestructible stasis bubble, gain immunity to energy damage, etc... and all while being relatively safe from DM intervention/fiat.


And that's not world breaking how?

[Ranos]

Ascendent Psykers aren't world breaking (in multiple ways) if properly and intelligently played?

Also where is this Mastery of Deceive, and where does it say that it is essentially mind control?

Lastly, what's stopping a Psyker (or any other character) from drawing up a dark pact and usurping these advantages (and more) _plus_ enjoying their already existing power?

Doesn't work that way. Main issue with Temple Assassin is that the DM is explicitly given permission to rule that anything a character couldn't normally dodge remains undodgable, and no DM in the world is going to allow a Vindicare to dodge something like a global holocaust (btw, how would he survive the subsequent hostile environment even if he could?).

The pact is somewhere in the Desire pacts. Lower the difficulty of any task with the skill to 0, or autosucceed by spending a fate point. There are other very nice things, but I find it's really one of the best boons around.

Nothing's stopping a psyker from drawing a dark pact, really. Just that, if he draws a dark pact, you basically have him by the balls. He breaks your game, you break him. The daemon will screw him sooner or later, and you can make that sooner if he gets cocky :smallamused:

Yeah, I was just being silly about the vindicare. Still, massive explosions IS in the list of explicit examples of undodgeable things the vindicare should be allowed to dodge :smallbiggrin:



In the meanwhile the Psyker can fly off the planet, teleport, protect himself with an indestructible stasis bubble, gain immunity to energy damage, etc... and all while being relatively safe from DM intervention/fiat.

Wait, they can actually do all that ? Holy crap :smalleek:. I know normal psykers can do the energy-immune (doesn't protect against void though, that's explosive damage), and the flying, but I didn't know about all the rest.

I'm not really up to date with the Ascension psykers, but if that's all true, alright, sure. We can add up Ascension psykers to the gamebreaker Tier 0. I still hold that non-Ascension psykers are powerful, but not game-breakingly so.

[Surrealistik]

The pact is somewhere in the Desire pacts. Lower the difficulty of any task with the skill to 0, or autosucceed by spending a fate point. There are other very nice things, but I find it's really one of the best boons around.

I take it you are referring to Mastery. While that's definitely useful, at no point would it ever allow you to actually mind control NPCs with Deceive. Sure you could spend a fate point to make an NPC believe he's a chicken; then he immediately sees proof to the contrary and knows better. Remember, there is no duration specified for how long your deception lasts, and if confronted with incontrovertible evidence that opposes your lie, the DM would easily be within his rights to have the target rediscover the truth.

Personally I like Timeless and Unsettling Recovery: becoming immortal and spending 2 Fate Points to avoid certain death rather than burning 1 is insanely good. The latter isn't so great if you are capable of healing yourself with Psionic Powers, but is otherwise incredible.


Nothing's stopping a psyker from drawing a dark pact, really. Just that, if he draws a dark pact, you basically have him by the balls. He breaks your game, you break him. The daemon will screw him sooner or later, and you can make that sooner if he gets cocky :smallamused:

Yeah, I was just being silly about the vindicare. Still, massive explosions IS in the list of explicit examples of undodgeable things the vindicare should be allowed to dodge :smallbiggrin:

I'm not so sure the Daemon can hold sway over the Psyker should he ever make it to Ascension. At that point the Psyker is basically more powerful than it can ever hope to be, even if it's a Greater Daemon. At that point, he could easily destroy or dominate it, in a Darth Vader moment: I am altering the deal; pray I do not alter it any further. While mere mortals are inevitably consumed by chaos and daemonic pacts, high rank/Ascension Psykers generally tend to master them, so long as they play it smart in the interim while they build their power. Essentially for any such contract to ultimately subsume an Ascension Psyker, the pact would necessarily have to be with one of the Chaos Gods.


Wait, they can actually do all that ? Holy crap :smalleek:. I know normal psykers can do the energy-immune (doesn't protect against void though, that's explosive damage), and the flying, but I didn't know about all the rest.

They can also protect against impact with a Sorcery (becoming a Master Sorcerer is ridiculously easy for Psykers, and they get +2 Psi Dice to boot). Biomancy can be used to protect against vacuum.


I'm not really up to date with the Ascension psykers, but if that's all true, alright, sure. We can add up Ascension psykers to the gamebreaker Tier 0. I still hold that non-Ascension psykers are powerful, but not game-breakingly so.

Yeah, they might not be _game breaking_ per say, but they come very close, and I'd say max rank DH psykers arguably are, unless you send them against Ascension opponents in which case no one else will be able to keep up. They are certainly game breaking in the sense that they are in a completely different league from everyone else.

[king.com]

People seem to make so many strange assumptions about how the game is run (I know that sounds fairly arrogant of me but bare with me).

Players cannot simply pull Dark Pacts out of the blue, these are rare occurances and demons actually willing to make one is not going to do so unless its in their benefit. A Dark Pact is almost certainly going to kill the PC (literally or simply turning them into an NPC).

Ascension should not be considered a direct part of Dark Heresy, its Epic level characters. Everyone is super powerful through the roof but they are not going to be getting into combat. The threats are sector wide, its about resources being used agains other resources. Sure the Psyker can tear through a planet but if they never actually find the resources of their enemy, they're going to be useless (and you better believe that anyone with a psyker running round letting off powers willy nilly isnt going to actually stick around to show off their operations). Your a mind reader? The people you can capture are geting mind locked, or never getting information in the first place.

If a demon cannot control the person hes making the pact with HES NEVER GOING TO DO IT, and a greater demon can and will pose an overwhelming threat to an Ascension level psyker, binding yourself gives up that control. A max level Ascension psyker is no where near Alpha + level psykers, they are beta at most. You seem to be really underestimating what a Greater Demon is capable of (the weakest of these is shown in ascension as an intelligence based character, the Lord of Change all the other Lords of Change make fun of).

Sorcery? Thats getting corruption just for having that talent let alone using it. Not to mention it ensures your rolling dice.

A psyker actively burning worlds, hes going to get the ecclesiarchy after him. Im talking Witch hunters with null rods, or hell, even whoever hes fighting on that level of power is going to deploying these things.

People seem to want to focus on combat but the DnD tier system is about amount of flexibility. Psyker weaknesses are so very vast that they lose their flexibility. Sure they can potentially kill their opponents with their mind but then what do they do when they have to go about investigating? If Scintilla is being overrun with cultists, the psykers not going to doing much good fighting them when thats created purely so the psyker has to stay and fight it.

Surrealistic, how did you get 90+ willpower?

[Ranos]

Oh, you can get a dark pact for free actually. Well, not exactly. We were discussing Thy Name I Keep, which basically gives you the benefits of a dark pact without any of the drawbacks. Pretty damn broken.

About greater daemon, I really don't know much about ascension, but I don't think Marabas is supposed to be particularly weak from his description. He's probably not going to show up in person to greet mister alphapsyker though, that's for sure.

As for sorcery, eh, depends how high rank we're talking, but yeah, in low to mid level DH, it's the fast path to chaos spawn.


And are you seriously saying psykers lack versatility ? :smalleek:


Surrealistic, how did you get 90+ willpower?
Good question, I can't think how to get that high. Highest I can thing of is 20 (base) + 30 (Darkholder) + 20 (Upgrades) + Living nightmare (5) = 75 willpower. Am I forgetting something ?

EDIT 1 : Oh, or were you talking about Ascension psyker ? Then I guess with the +10 from new upgrades and the ascension package, you might get there, dunno.

EDIT 2 : Checked it. Yeah, you get to exactly 90 willpower, before the unnatural willpowers. Still, that's friggin ascension.

[Surrealistik]

People seem to make so many strange assumptions about how the game is run (I know that sounds fairly arrogant of me but bare with me).

Players cannot simply pull Dark Pacts out of the blue, these are rare occurances and demons actually willing to make one is not going to do so unless its in their benefit. A Dark Pact is almost certainly going to kill the PC (literally or simply turning them into an NPC).

Ascension should not be considered a direct part of Dark Heresy, its Epic level characters. Everyone is super powerful through the roof but they are not going to be getting into combat. The threats are sector wide, its about resources being used agains other resources. Sure the Psyker can tear through a planet but if they never actually find the resources of their enemy, they're going to be useless (and you better believe that anyone with a psyker running round letting off powers willy nilly isnt going to actually stick around to show off their operations). Your a mind reader? The people you can capture are geting mind locked, or never getting information in the first place.

If a demon cannot control the person hes making the pact with HES NEVER GOING TO DO IT, and a greater demon can and will pose an overwhelming threat to an Ascension level psyker, binding yourself gives up that control. A max level Ascension psyker is no where near Alpha + level psykers, they are beta at most. You seem to be really underestimating what a Greater Demon is capable of (the weakest of these is shown in ascension as an intelligence based character, the Lord of Change all the other Lords of Change make fun of).

Sorcery? Thats getting corruption just for having that talent let alone using it. Not to mention it ensures your rolling dice.

A psyker actively burning worlds, hes going to get the ecclesiarchy after him. Im talking Witch hunters with null rods, or hell, even whoever hes fighting on that level of power is going to deploying these things.

People seem to want to focus on combat but the DnD tier system is about amount of flexibility. Psyker weaknesses are so very vast that they lose their flexibility. Sure they can potentially kill their opponents with their mind but then what do they do when they have to go about investigating? If Scintilla is being overrun with cultists, the psykers not going to doing much good fighting them when thats created purely so the psyker has to stay and fight it.

Surrealistic, how did you get 90+ willpower?

What Ranos said.

Also no, a pimped out Ascension Psyker can easily kill Greater Daemons with plenty of firepower to spare. We're talking thousands of damage here, and a bonus in the hundreds to this Psyker's initiative which guarantees he goes first, and at this point he hasn't even broken out the Ascension powers yet. He can kill several Marabras (who is not some weakling LoC pariah as you claim) never mind one in a single turn.

Second, what's to state that a Psyker couldn't compel or trick a Daemon into a Dark Pact that's mostly advantageous to him much like Daemons compel/trick mortals? Many powerful sorcerers have done precisely that.

By the way, there's nothing that states that an Ascension Psyker can't fetter when using Psi Dice from the Sorcery talents. Furthermore, an Ascension Psyker has such a high WP bonus that he will _never_ get corruption from using Arcana. The Warp is his plaything, not the opposite.

In combat, an Ascension Psyker can tear anything apart. Outside of combat he not only has ridiculously high skills, particularly those relating to Intelligence and Perception, but he also has insanely strong Divination and Telepathy powers to draw upon which no mundane character can hope to match. That's not even getting into the huge bonuses/buffs he can grant himself to various skills. High rank Psykers are broken not (or at least not exclusively) because they can own Titans with their minds, but because they are Mary Sues that excel at almost everything they do thanks to their powers. To furthermore claim they have no flexibility is patently ridiculous; it is the exact, diametric opposite of reality. Again well-built and played Psykers _do it all_, and do it better, which is precisely why they're so damned broken.

Finally, absolutely nothing compels a powerful Psyker PC to act rashly and thus bring the Imperium down on him. Whoever said he'd be burning down worlds at a whim?

[MickJay]

There's a drug from the expansion to Rogue Trader that grants its user +20 to Willpower for 1d10 minutes. The only drawback is that if you take it too often, you become addicted and have to take it daily :smalltongue: Considering how acquisitions in RT work, once you get the stuff, for all practical purposes you can't run out of it. Of course, in RT you are playing an Astropath Transcendent, rather than a DH Psyker, with slightly different rules for psykers as well.

[Ranos]

There's a drug from the expansion to Rogue Trader that grants its user +20 to Willpower for 1d10 minutes. The only drawback is that if you take it too often, you become addicted and have to take it daily :smalltongue: Considering how acquisitions in RT work, once you get the stuff, for all practical purposes you can't run out of it. Of course, in RT you are playing an Astropath Transcendent, rather than a DH Psyker, with slightly different rules for psykers as well.

Hell, chem-gland the stuff, and you can simply metabolize the drug whenever you need :smalltongue:. But yeah, that's a bit beyond the scale of non-ascension DH there.

[Dead_Jester]

Hell, chem-gland the stuff, and you can simply metabolize the drug whenever you need :smalltongue:. But yeah, that's a bit beyond the scale of non-ascension DH there.

However, once you do get to ascension level, then it's basically free (heck, it's only rare, which means it probably won't even be hard to find, and as a psyker, it should be ridiculously easy to get once you find a source), and you can put your willpower through the roof.

[Surrealistik]

However, once you do get to ascension level, then it's basically free (heck, it's only rare, which means it probably won't even be hard to find, and as a psyker, it should be ridiculously easy to get once you find a source), and you can put your willpower further through the roof.

Fixed, etc :P

[WitchSlayer]

Sigh, the tough life of being a tech priest. I can't dodge holocausts. And the most damage I figured the current tech priest I'm playing can absorb is only around 30.

And I only have two choices for ascension! TWO.

[profitofrage]

OK to be very VERY specific here, i originally said Dark heresy...let me further specify what I meant.

Dark heresy + any and all suppliments...EXCEPT Acension...because the WHOLE point of Acension was to level character to where they can perform against rouge trader and DeathWatch.


Acension ISNT a game id be interested in EVER. Just like how I read many epic level DnD games and think "Why bother playing an RPG when it would be quicker to just do a RP where youll always succeed."


So when I say a Psyker isnt all that powerful, im Talking DH..where things are balanced..where time has been taken to balance them. Not Acension..where the point was "how do we get a psyker to balance again a librarian space marine? More psy ratings? more willpower?"

So in summary --> ascention is to DH like power sword is to butter knife.
the power sword is a weapon, the butter knife is cuttlery...there similar things (they both are bladed)..but totally different.

[Surrealistik]

Psykers are still ridiculously powerful in DH, and easily the most powerful class overall; once they get Favoured of the Warp, their problems with Perils are largely over.

[Ranos]

Dark heresy + any and all suppliments...EXCEPT Acension...because the WHOLE point of Acension was to level character to where they can perform against rouge trader and DeathWatch.

Acension ISNT a game id be interested in EVER. Just like how I read many epic level DnD games and think "Why bother playing an RPG when it would be quicker to just do a RP where youll always succeed."


Rogue trader and deathwatch are plenty interesting. The only problem with Ascension is how horribly balanced it is. If it wasn't for that, it would be a good game.

[Leon]

Psykers are still ridiculously powerful in DH, and easily the most powerful class overall; once they get Favoured of the Warp, their problems with Perils are largely over.

And under a GM who has any sense still a highly liable walking bomb as they should be.



Sigh, the tough life of being a tech priest. I can't dodge holocausts. And the most damage I figured the current tech priest I'm playing can absorb is only around 30.

And I only have two choices for ascension! TWO.

You are a Member of the Most Awesome Priesthood of Mars - worshiping what is most likely a C'Tan under another name.
A being far far superior to that stuffy corpse on a throne that everyone has to pay lip service to.

[Ranos]

Psykers are still ridiculously powerful in DH, and easily the most powerful class overall; once they get Favoured of the Warp, their problems with Perils are largely over.

One thing that can curb this is to remember that by RAW neither focus power rolls, psychic phenomena rolls or perils rolls are Tests. They can't be rerolled with fate.
Haven't seen many DMs apply RAW on that one though.

[profitofrage]

One thing that can curb this is to remember that by RAW neither focus power rolls, psychic phenomena rolls or perils rolls are Tests. They can't be rerolled with fate.
Haven't seen many DMs apply RAW on that one though.

I was under the impression everyone knew this? I thought favoured by the warp granted such an ability. Though now under inspection i realise its just a roll twice pick lowest result.
Thats hardly a game breaker.

[The Glyphstone]

One thing that can curb this is to remember that by RAW neither focus power rolls, psychic phenomena rolls or perils rolls are Tests. They can't be rerolled with fate.
Haven't seen many DMs apply RAW on that one though.

Wow. I'd never noticed that...interesting. Librarians cry now.

[Ranos]

I was under the impression everyone knew this? I thought favoured by the warp granted such an ability. Though now under inspection i realise its just a roll twice pick lowest result.
Thats hardly a game breaker.

Well, it does make obliteration into around a 1 in 1600 chance. Assuming you only use a single power dice each time. Those are acceptable chances, considering that you'll probably burn through your fate even faster if you don't use any of your powers anyway.

Edit : Probably less than that, since I counted daemonhost into the "instant obliteration" scenarios. Forgot that it allowed a willpower roll. Plus, I think sisters make for pretty good exorcists now, so that's reversable. So, 1 in 160 chances of perils, and 1 in 16000 chances of instant obliteration.


you forget that psychic phenomina all clue in those in the area that the individual is a psyker...more importantly a psyker losing control
That would have been made obvious by manifesting the power anyway.

[profitofrage]

you forget that psychic phenomina all clue in those in the area that the individual is a psyker...more importantly a psyker losing control

[Surrealistik]

you forget that psychic phenomina all clue in those in the area that the individual is a psyker...more importantly a psyker losing control

Not necessarily, unless said people have Psyniscience or technological equivalents, barring the manifestation being blatantly obvious (like lightning/fire coming from your hands).

Fate points also save you from the very worst results (burn to survive, or spend to reroll a failed test it prompts).

[Ranos]

Not necessarily, unless said people have Psyniscience or technological equivalents, barring the manifestation being blatantly obvious (like lightning/fire coming from your hands).

Even then, the loss of control is not necessarily obvious. Imagine that you're in a firefight with a group of cultists, and the psyker stands up, points at the cultists, and starts yelling with such force that the ground shakes in anger with him and the energy in the room becomes palpable.

Yeah, sure, it was actually The Earth Protests, but if I didn't know too much about psykers, I'd think he was powering the hell up, DBZ style, and that I better stay out of his way before he fries the hell out of those cultists.

And if I did know enough about psykers to know that this was actually psychic phenomena, well, then I'd know that the psyker and myself are gonna be just fine after the phenomena's gone, and leave it at that.

[profitofrage]

Except this is 40K and "psykers powering up" is "psyker's about to kill us all"
Do try and remember that unless your character is unusually kindh hearted to the psykers plight they are 'witches'

almost any character you start off as in DH has been raised in an environment where preachers have been conditioning you to abhore the witch.
Seeing a Psyker do something like that? On a battlefield youd be told to use that moment to put a bullet in his brain.
Your character MIGHT get around that, but all other NPC's wont (shouldnt).


Also everyone please do look at the top right of page 161 of the core rulebook.
"They do instantly alert others to the presence of the psyker and even harmless effects can cause citizens to flee in terror."

in 40K most people have a sliver of psychic potential. When psychic phenomina occurs its like a null just walked into the room. They may not have psyniscience but they KNOW something isnt right about the guy next to them. This effect is further increased by the fact that reality warping crap is occuring CENTERED on the psyker.

[Surrealistik]

Also everyone please do look at the top right of page 161 of the core rulebook.
"They do instantly alert others to the presence of the psyker and even harmless effects can cause citizens to flee in terror.".

That doesn't mean they can identify the Psyker as the person responsible, unless the effect blatantly outs him.

[Ranos]

So you'd put a bullet in the psyker's brain the moment he manifests any impressive power ? What's the difference between an earthquake and a torrent of flames ? You have no idea that one is actually psychic phenomena.

Such an attitude will get you killed very quick, much quicker than the psyker. You've just destroyed a powerful asset with little to no reason. That makes you a liability, which in the Inquisition makes you a dead man. You could possibly survive it with the cell backing you up, but let's face it, you just killed a player. They probably won't even wait for the Inquisitor to do you in.

And seriously, outside of all setting considerations, killing a fellow player is just wrong and disruptive, especially with such flimsy reasons.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

I have not really looked into this much, but I am inclined to believe that Surrealistik is right about the psyker's invincibility.

I still have kind of a problem with this whole situation, though. Reading this, it seems like the idea is that playing one is obviously the only viable option and if the other players are not having any fun it's their own fault for not keeping up. Oh, and the GM should not be allowed to increase the difficulty or single you out to compensate for some reason.

(I guess that is probably not what Surr really meant, but one of his posts kind of felt that way on first reading.)

The GM shouldn't just outright kill your character for shenanigans, I don't think, since that would be bad form... but at some point, the plot could swing in such a way that the rest of the party has no choice but to try and stop you, pretty much ending the campaign regardless of how it turns out.

Honestly though, I would be more worried about your real-life friends just losing interest in the game if you take it too far. I think that socially-minded psyker players tend to tone it down a bit for that exact reason.

[TomBaker]

Throwing my two cents into the mix, pskyers are the most powerful class, but really only once they hit Psy Level 3. Stuck with minor powers before that they are near fodder level. My rank 2 pskyer almost got killed, and I had to burn a fate point to survive a hive rat, they can be extremely fragile. But once they hit the big stuff, they surpass everyone else.
Also perils can also be one of their stronger points, if you're lucky. Roll right on the table and suddenly you've just reduced the 4 guards and bbeg in the room with you by 10 wounds, :smallbiggrin:

[Leon]

And seriously, outside of all setting considerations, killing a fellow player is just wrong and disruptive, especially with such flimsy reasons.

Yet on these boards across all games it's common topic and a off suggested way for groups/individuals to deal with problematic characters then countered by the other side of the argument.

[Ranos]

Doesn't mean they're right. If during character generation, you're already purposefully making a character that will clash with the rest of the party in such a way that you'll inevitably try to kill them at the first occasion, you're probably That Guy.

Intraparty conflict is fine when it comes from drama inside the game, and is between the characters and not the players. Not for abusive behavior such as this.

[profitofrage]

Theres a distinct difference between psychic phenomina and manifesting powers.
this is noted in the fluff and the game mechanics. If your on a battlefield and the psyker starts making **** float instead of blowing up enemies brains? you shoot him. Thats fluff, not an opinion players are likely to have but still part of the setting.
In a DH game..chances are the players arnt going to care at all that the psyker looks like a horrible ghoul..because they will know its "there ghoul".
What im saying is that its up to the DM to enforce the setting even when there players wont. This doesnt mean "kill the psyker" It means "show him that there IS risk in being one that is more then a dice roll" Its part of the setting.

My point is that while psykers are powerful, there definably not game breaking unless your playing acension (already broken anyway) or the DM really isnt trying.

[Dead_Jester]

Theres a distinct difference between psychic phenomina and manifesting powers.
this is noted in the fluff and the game mechanics. If your on a battlefield and the psyker starts making **** float instead of blowing up enemies brains? you shoot him. Thats fluff, not an opinion players are likely to have but still part of the setting.

The thing is, of a psyker is on the same side as you, and your a guardsmen/arbiter/whatever, than you probably don't know what he intends to do anyways, but you know he's on your side, and that he's wrecking the enemy. Unless it's a really serious thing (only targeting friendlies/summoning of daemons/possession/etc), the average Joe will be scared, but he won't shoot the psyker because he that they are worth more than the combined gear you are all carrying, which in turn is worth more than your combined lives.

That's not to say fanatics like red redemptionist won't do it, but your average guardsmen is instructed to shoot psykers only when they are either alone (no one to watch them) or doing really crazy stuff (which most warp phenomena aren't, although some could qualify). If they're working for the inquisition, then their probably instructed to not shoot them until something bad happens.

[Wardog]

The thing is, of a psyker is on the same side as you, and your a guardsmen/arbiter/whatever, than you probably don't know what he intends to do anyways, but you know he's on your side, and that he's wrecking the enemy. Unless it's a really serious thing (only targeting friendlies/summoning of daemons/possession/etc), the average Joe will be scared, but he won't shoot the psyker because he that they are worth more than the combined gear you are all carrying, which in turn is worth more than your combined lives.

That's not to say fanatics like red redemptionist won't do it, but your average guardsmen is instructed to shoot psykers only when they are either alone (no one to watch them) or doing really crazy stuff (which most warp phenomena aren't, although some could qualify). If they're working for the inquisition, then their probably instructed to not shoot them until something bad happens.

Yes, in standard 40k, its only the Comissars (IIRC) who get to put down their own psykers. Which suggests that the average guardsman either doesn't have the authority to do it, or doesn't know how to distinguish between a psyker who is about to metaphorically unleash hell on the enemy, and one who is literally about to unleash hell on himself and companions. (I presume inquisitors would also know and have the authority, and possibly Sisters as well, but not many others).

[Kris Strife]

Are there rules for casting a daemon out of your body after being possessed, like the Illuminati (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Illuminati)?

[Dead_Jester]

Are there rules for casting a daemon out of your body after being possessed, like the Illuminati (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Illuminati)?

Well, the radical's handbook has some rules for possession and exorcism, including an advanced class for the exorcised.

[profitofrage]

though nothing that causes immunity to the warp to the point where you can actually EXIST there. That stuff is acension style dribble, best search there.

The best I can recall is a package that has you survive a daemonic possesion, not cast it out personally. This of course giving you large bonuses against the same thing occuring again.

[Surrealistik]

Theres a distinct difference between psychic phenomina and manifesting powers.
this is noted in the fluff and the game mechanics. If your on a battlefield and the psyker starts making **** float instead of blowing up enemies brains? you shoot him. Thats fluff, not an opinion players are likely to have but still part of the setting.
In a DH game..chances are the players arnt going to care at all that the psyker looks like a horrible ghoul..because they will know its "there ghoul".
What im saying is that its up to the DM to enforce the setting even when there players wont. This doesnt mean "kill the psyker" It means "show him that there IS risk in being one that is more then a dice roll" Its part of the setting.

My point is that while psykers are powerful, there definably not game breaking unless your playing acension (already broken anyway) or the DM really isnt trying.

That's just not true. Again, between Favoured of the Warp (FotW) and Fate Points to spend/burn in the _really_ terrible cases, nothing is left to counterbalance the Psyker's power. As others have mentioned, few people really possess the authority and right to off a Psyker even _if_ they were able to hold him responsible for Phenomena/Perils, the latter of which is already rare in the first case due to FotW. Further, at the point the Psyker _does_ get FotW, he breaks into the major powers which put him head and shoulders above everyone else. At this point he has to be singled out (which is generally a bad thing) unless you want to guarantee PC deaths/frustrations with challenges that are far beyond them (but are on par with the psyker), or allow the psyker to complete/kill everything with trivial ease, which certainly strains the game if it does not break it. Again, this bears repeating: Phenomena and Perils do _not_ balance the Psyker beyond FotW.

Also shameless plug for Sorcery acquisition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191498).

[Ranos]

Non-blood of martyrs sisters also have access to Purge the Unclean, which is super-exorcism with no side effects (although you don't get the few bonuses either).

[profitofrage]

ok for starters you cant just "learn sorcery" the game implies you have to activly learn it through studying evil books and such (supposedly extremly rare).
So while your mechanics look well put together I still dont think its rare enough. Psychic powers is something that occurs in 40k alot, psykers who become sorcerers happens rarely but it occurs..this is due to the two arts being linked by the warp. But straight learning sorcery is VERY VERY rare and shouldnt occur unless theres 'quests' to gain said knowledge in the first place..most likely being a campaign itself.

for starters..the result of a Fate point being Burnt is for the GM to decide, It can range from "your barely alive" to possesed and amassing huge corruption points..lets hope they save you. At least that is how i read the rules on them.
And lets get this straight...FOTW doesnt STOP phenomina...it makes it less likely to get perils. a phenomina STILL OCCURS. Do the math, whats the chances of rolling two dice...both of which have 25% chance of getting perils..but you get to pick the lowest one.
Now lets look at When a Psyker gets FOTW
scholar arcanum is level 6 out of 8 levels in total not including admittingly broken acension.
At level 6 out of the 6000 xp they would have had to spend they need 1600 to get the max + 20 willpower they can amass which is ultimatly the source of there 'brokenness' with damage. Force barrage? the spell i hear most of being broken. 1D10 + 7 x 7. reduced by toughness and armor per hit thats your average (optimised) psyker hit. An autocannon can do 4D10 + 5 x 5 shots reduced by toughness and armor (barely the armor due to pen)
I could get that autocannon far sooner then your psyker can get your broken levels as just a guardsmen and still on average do more damage. you have more flexibility? not really...an assasin at that level can out sneak you. A tech priest can still out tech you...and a adept can out Lore you.
how is it unbalanced to the point of broken?
If im missing something please enlighten me

[Surrealistik]

ok for starters you cant just "learn sorcery" the game implies you have to activly learn it through studying evil books and such (supposedly extremly rare).
So while your mechanics look well put together I still dont think its rare enough. Psychic powers is something that occurs in 40k alot, psykers who become sorcerers happens rarely but it occurs..this is due to the two arts being linked by the warp. But straight learning sorcery is VERY VERY rare and shouldnt occur unless theres 'quests' to gain said knowledge in the first place..most likely being a campaign itself.

Learning Arcana assumes original research if referential materials (which provide bonuses) are not on hand.



for starters..the result of a Fate point being Burnt is for the GM to decide, It can range from "your barely alive" to possesed and amassing huge corruption points..lets hope they save you. At least that is how i read the rules on them.

In super exceptional cases, the GM can rule that not even a burned fate point can save you. These cases however, as expected, are super exceptional.


And lets get this straight...FOTW doesnt STOP phenomina...it makes it less likely to get perils. a phenomina STILL OCCURS. Do the math, whats the chances of rolling two dice...both of which have 25% chance of getting perils..but you get to pick the lowest one.

Yes, and this exponentially reduces the risk of something Really Bad (TM) happening:

10% chance of Phenomena (most are negligible) per dice.

6.25% chance of Perils (with FotW)

0.625% chance of Perils per dice.

And then if Perils is triggered, there's about a 22% chance of something Really Bad happening that can't be dealt with by spending an FP:

0.1375% per dice.

Pretty negligible all told.


Now lets look at When a Psyker gets FOTW
scholar arcanum is level 6 out of 8 levels in total not including admittingly broken acension.
At level 6 out of the 6000 xp they would have had to spend they need 1600 to get the max + 20 willpower they can amass which is ultimatly the source of there 'brokenness' with damage. Force barrage? the spell i hear most of being broken. 1D10 + 7 x 7. reduced by toughness and armor per hit thats your average (optimised) psyker hit.

An autocannon can do 4D10 + 5 x 5 shots reduced by toughness and armor (barely the armor due to pen)
I could get that autocannon far sooner then your psyker can get your broken levels as just a guardsmen and still on average do more damage.


1d10+7 x 7 + Overbleed.

Psychic Rating 4 + WP 7 + Power Well 2x + Discipline Focus:

5.5 x 4 = 15 + 7 = 22 + 2 = 24 + 2 = 31.5 (2 Overbleed)

Also, because the power functions as per Force Bolt, we add its Overbleed as well, each bolt doing +1 damage.

so:

(5.5+9) x 9 x 0.7 = 91.35 damage; silent and undodgable. If you use the +20 WP enhancing drug (a fair assumption since you're assuming a huge and expensive weapon):

(5.5+11) x 11 x 0.9 = 163.35 average damage; silent and undodgable.

Autocannon (BS 60 base assumed +20 Full auto):

27 (damage per bullet) x 1 (hits) x 0.1 (chance of 1 hit) = 2.7 average damage.
27 x 2 x 0.1 = 5.4
27 x 3 x 0.1 = 8.1
27 x 4 x 0.1 = 10.8
27 x 5 x 0.4 = 54

81 total.

But wait! It can be dodged!

I think at this point we can safely assume a Dodge score of 50 for most opponents:

-27 (damage negated per dodge) x 1 (bullets dodged) x 0.1 (chance of 1 dodge) = -2.7
-27 x 2 x 0.1 = -5.4
-27 x 3 x 0.1 = -8.1
-27 x 4 x 0.1 = -10.8
-27 x 5 x 0.1 = -13.5

= -40.5 damage = 81 - 40.5 = 40.5

Short Range? Average damage is increased by 13.5:

54 average damage.

Even if you account for armour, Force Barrage obviously comes out way ahead save in the case of the most armoured enemies.

Let's also not forget that Autocannons need time to deploy, are huge, heavy, conspicuous and obvious weapons (with equally heavy/bulky ammo), and are thus highly situational. Mind Bullets are not nearly as restrictive.


you have more flexibility? not really...an assasin at that level can out sneak you. A tech priest can still out tech you...and a adept can out Lore you. how is it unbalanced to the point of broken? If im missing something please enlighten me

An Assassin can outsneak me with Chameleon, Cellular Control and See Me Not? An Adept/Tech Priest can out Lore/Tech me with Cellular Control, Glimpse, Knack, and/or Lucky? And these are just a few of the powers that let the Psyker get ahead. I haven't done the math, but I'm about 95% certain that the bonuses from these powers will either allow the Psyker to at least match or be competitive with these specialists if not outright surpass them. Even if 'merely' the former is true, that's terrible, because it proves the Psyker can really 'do it all'.

[Selrahc]

An Assassin can outsneak me with Chameleon, Cellular Control and See Me Not? An Adept/Tech Priest can out Lore/Tech me with Cellular Control, Glimpse, Knack, and/or Lucky? And these are just a few of the powers that let the Psyker get ahead. I haven't done the math, but I'm about 95% certain that the bonuses from these powers will either allow the Psyker to at least match or be competitive with these specialists if not outright surpass them. Even if 'merely' the former is true, that's terrible, because it proves the Psyker can really 'do it all'.

A psyker who had access to all of the powers in the book probably could do it all.

Psykers don't have access to all the powers in the book though. Even a Psy Rating 6 psyker is going to be forbidden from having any power at all within at least one discipline, and access to probably less than half of all the abilities that are available.

A more likely set up for a high power psyker is to dual-specialize in two disciplines, taking bonus powers as needed to gain almost complete mastery over them. Still pretty versatile. But I really doubt they'll be able to match up to a specialist in many areas.

Maybe you should give us an example psyker who is truly able to do it all. Give us one at 6000xp(Fairly powerful), one at 15000xp(Pinnacle of the Dark Heresy progression) and see how they stack up to specialists in the various fields.

At the moment though, I'm sceptical.

[Surrealistik]

A psyker who had access to all of the powers in the book probably could do it all.

Psykers don't have access to all the powers in the book though. Even a Psy Rating 6 psyker is going to be forbidden from having any power at all within at least one discipline, and access to probably less than half of all the abilities that are available.

A more likely set up for a high power psyker is to dual-specialize in two disciplines, taking bonus powers as needed to gain almost complete mastery over them. Still pretty versatile. But I really doubt they'll be able to match up to a specialist in many areas.

Maybe you should give us an example psyker who is truly able to do it all. Give us one at 6000xp(Fairly powerful), one at 15000xp(Pinnacle of the Dark Heresy progression) and see how they stack up to specialists in the various fields.

At the moment though, I'm sceptical.

Chameleon, Lucky and Knack are all Lesser Powers (LPs) easily acquired by a Psyker that has FotW and Psy Rating 4.

In the meanwhile, Psy Rating 4 with 70 WP grants you either 1 Greater Power (GPs) in 2 different Disciplines, or 4 Greater Powers in 1 Discipline.

You'll probably want 2 different Disciplines for 1 GP each. Scholar Arcanum allows you to purchase 2 GPs. Scholar Materium allows you to purchase 1 GP. Scholar Medicae allows you to purchase 2 GP.

This enables you to handily purchase all powers listed from any 2 Disciplines (it's worth nothing you don't need all of them). In conjunction with the LPs you can easily beat or match specialists at their own game. The Psyker's Intelligence and Perception are also amongst the highest in the game, as is his Tech Use, Medicae, Awareness, Inquiry, Lores, Literacy, Scrutiny, etc...

[Ranos]

Chameleon, Lucky and Knack are all Lesser Powers (LPs) easily acquired by a Psyker that has FotW and Psy Rating 4.

In the meanwhile, Psy Rating 4 with 70 WP grants you either 1 Greater Power (GPs) in 2 different Disciplines, or 4 Greater Powers in 1 Discipline.

You'll probably want 2 different Disciplines for 1 GP each. Scholar Arcanum allows you to purchase 2 GPs. Scholar Materium allows you to purchase 1 GP. Scholar Medicae allows you to purchase 2 GP.

This enables you to handily purchase all powers listed from any 2 Disciplines (it's worth nothing you don't need all of them). In conjunction with the LPs you can easily beat or match specialists at their own game. The Psyker's Intelligence and Perception are also amongst the highest in the game, as is his Tech Use, Medicae, Awareness, Inquiry, Lores, Literacy, Scrutiny, etc...

I'm pretty sure Psy rating 4 is just one power in one single discipline. And possibly one more in the same discipline by taking the "Psychic power" advance at rank 6. You do have from 10 to 22 minor powers at that point (depending on how much you splurged on the talents) so you can basically have access to any of them if you want. The major powers are much more restricted.

But even with lucky and such, trust me, you're not beating an optimized techpriest at tech-use. What the hell kind of psyker takes high intelligence anyway ? I know it's an easy advance, but I'd rather put my high stats into willpower, perception, toughness, and agility before I even think of intelligence in a psyker.

[Surrealistik]

I'm pretty sure Psy rating 4 is just one power in one single discipline. And possibly one more in the same discipline by taking the "Psychic power" advance at rank 6. You do have from 10 to 22 minor powers at that point (depending on how much you splurged on the talents) so you can basically have access to any of them if you want. The major powers are much more restricted.

PR 4 is either 1 GP in any Discipline, or GPs equal to half your WP bonus in any Discipline you already have a GP in. PR 3 gives you one power in any one single discipline.


But even with lucky and such, trust me, you're not beating an optimized techpriest at tech-use. What the hell kind of psyker takes high intelligence anyway ? I know it's an easy advance, but I'd rather put my high stats into willpower, perception, toughness, and agility before I even think of intelligence in a psyker.

You most likely will because you reroll your Test with Lucky, AND you get +30 to it with Glimpse. Also, you probably will take +20 Tech Use because it's such a damned useful skill. You will probably not rank up to Expert Intelligence, but Simple or Intermediate Advances are worth taking (depending on your starting Intelligence stat).

[Selrahc]

In the meanwhile, Psy Rating 4 with 70 WP grants you either 1 Greater Power (GPs) in 2 different Disciplines, or 4 Greater Powers in 1 Discipline.


Where is WP70 coming from? Even a Void Born Psyker, rolling maximum stats, and buying every willpower stat increase only gets up to WP65. To get up to 70 requires getting a willpower increasing Inquisitorial Motto *and* getting a WP increasing Sanctioning side effect. Or burning even more experience to get one of the stat increasing backgrounds from the Inquisitors Handbook.

WP70 is definitely not something you should take for granted.


You'll probably want 2 different Disciplines for 1 GP each. Scholar Arcanum allows you to purchase 2 GPs. Scholar Materium allows you to purchase 1 GP. Scholar Medicae allows you to purchase 2 GP.

So in a 6000xp character, you've spent 1350xp on willpower increases. A further 1000xp on bonus powers. A further 800xp on the necessary psy rating increases and favored by the warp.

This is without taking any talents like discipline focus or power well, and you've already used over half of your experience without taking a single skill or talent for things outside of using psychic powers.




This enables you to handily purchase all powers listed from any 2 Disciplines

No it doesn't... I'm not even sure what you mean here.

Each discipline contains ten listed powers. You've bought 5 powers, and get two free from the psy rating. 7 powers total, which means a maximum of 6 from a discipline or a little over half. How can you possibly think that you'd have access to all twenty powers?

[Surrealistik]

Where is WP70 coming from? Even a Void Born Psyker, rolling maximum stats, and buying every willpower stat increase only gets up to WP65. To get up to 70 requires getting a willpower increasing Inquisitorial Motto *and* getting a WP increasing Sanctioning side effect. Or burning even more experience to get one of the stat increasing backgrounds from the Inquisitors Handbook.

WP70 is definitely not something you should take for granted.

Darkholder and Max Stats: 45 + Advances: 20 + Living Nightmare: 5 = 70


So in a 6000xp character, you've spent 1350xp on willpower increases. A further 1000xp on bonus powers. A further 800xp on the necessary psy rating increases and favored by the warp.

This is without taking any talents like discipline focus or power well, and you've already used over half of your experience without taking a single skill or talent for things outside of using psychic powers.

Still plenty of XP left over to make optimal purchases like Awareness, Dodge, Toughness, Psyniscience, Invocation, Warp Lore and Tech-Use. Power Well and Discipline Focus you can do without and are non-essential if you need more XP for whatever reason.


No it doesn't... I'm not even sure what you mean here.

Each discipline contains ten listed powers. You've bought 5 powers, and get two free from the psy rating. 7 powers total, which means a maximum of 6 from a discipline or a little over half. How can you possibly think that you'd have access to all twenty powers?

I didn't say you got access to all 20 powers. I said you got access to all powers from any 2 disciplines listed in the examples I cited earlier of powers that enable you to surpass specialists.

[Ranos]

PR 4 is either 1 GP in any Discipline, or GPs equal to half your WP bonus in any Discipline you already have a GP in. PR 3 gives you one power in any one single discipline.
Huh. I wonder how I missed the major powers at psy rating 3. Yeah, you could get 5 of them at rank 6, then, or two in different disciplines. Or buy more with XP, I guess.


You most likely will because you reroll your Test with Lucky, AND you get +30 to it with Glimpse. Also, you probably will take +20 Tech Use because it's such a damned useful skill. You will probably not rank up to Expert Intelligence, but Simple or Intermediate Advances are worth taking (depending on your starting Intelligence stat).
Eh, still not quite convinced. At this rank, the techpriest has an int of around 70, plus tech-use +20 (which he does get much earlier), plus talented (tech-use), plus utility mechadendrite, plus electro-graft use plus an MIU plus foresight. That's about 140 to tech-use (all of the bonuses don't apply in easy difficulties due to +30 cap, but you don't need them in such cases), and that's just stuff from the top of my head.
And hell, to top it off, let's make that techpriest a wyrdling or hive-mutant with the lucky power :smallbiggrin:

A psyker will generally have 30 int, maybe 40-45 if he focused a bit on int. You'll tell me a psyker can get the MIU and a combi-tool as well, but remember that the bonuses can't stack up above +30, and you're already using glimpse. Bonuses can be obtained in a myriad of ways. Without a good base, you don't get too far.


Edit : Then again, I'm not sure a techie can get up to 70 int, I can only get them up to 65. Maybe someone who knows them better can tell me how.



Darkholder and Max Stats: 45 + Advances: 20 + Living Nightmare: 5 = 70
75, actually. Darkholder + max stats starts you at 50 willpower.

[Surrealistik]

Eh, still not quite convinced. At this rank, the techpriest has an int of around 70, plus tech-use +20 (which he does get much earlier), plus talented (tech-use), plus utility mechadendrite, plus electro-graft use plus an MIU plus foresight. That's about 140 to tech-use (all of the bonuses don't apply in easy difficulties due to +30 cap, but you don't need them in such cases), and that's just stuff from the top of my head.
And hell, to top it off, let's make that techpriest a wyrdling or hive-mutant with the lucky power :smallbiggrin:

A psyker will generally have 30 int, maybe 40-45 if he focused a bit on int. You'll tell me a psyker can get the MIU and a combi-tool as well, but remember that the bonuses can't stack up above +30, and you're already using glimpse. Bonuses can be obtained in a myriad of ways. Without a good base, you don't get too far.

Edit : Then again, I'm not sure a techie can get up to 70 int, I can only get them up to 65. Maybe someone who knows them better can tell me how.

I don't think he can; I'd say 60/65 is probably more accurate. There doesn't appear to be any cap on skill bonuses; I think you are referring to combat bonus limits. Even if that is true, it actually favours the Psyker as he gets a reroll worth about +25.

Psyker has ~40-50 Int including Advancements, Combitool +10, MIU +10, Glimpse +30, Tech-Use +20 (it doesn't matter that the TP gets it earlier, we're comparing them at Rank 6), and he rerolls (roughly equal to a +25). Total works out to around ~140.

Tech-Priest does not get Talented(Tech-Use) by this point, so what you've tallied so far +60 Intelligence: +120.


75, actually. Darkholder + max stats starts you at 50 willpower.

From what I see, Darkholder only grants you +5 to your base of 40.

[Ranos]

I don't think he can; I'd say 60/65 is probably more accurate. There doesn't appear to be any cap on skill bonuses; I think you are referring to combat bonus limits. Even if that is true, it actually favours the Psyker as he gets a reroll worth about +25.

Psyker has ~40-50 Int including Advancements, Combitool +10, MIU +10, Glimpse +30, Tech-Use +20 (it doesn't matter that the TP gets it earlier, we're comparing them at Rank 6), and he rerolls (roughly equal to a +25). Total works out to around ~140.

Tech-Priest does not get Talented(Tech-Use) by this point, so what you've tallied so far +60 Intelligence: +120.

Oh, actually, found it. Malfian noble-born gets you to 70 int.
And talented (Tech-use) can be gotten with duplicate talents from background packages.

Alright then, let's compare them in a Very Hard tech-use roll. Both have enough bonuses (+50 each from what I've seen) to end up rolling with a +20 modifier.
The techpriest has 70+20(tech-use)+20(bonus) = must roll under 110, so automatic success, with only the degrees of success being in question.
The psyker has 50+20(tech-use)+20(bonus) = must roll under 90 = 10% chance of failure (you'll note a pretty large investment of resources in int, tech-skills and equipment on the psyker's part).

So our psyker is not quite up to par with the techpriest, even at his best. But that's not all. Before he can even start to compete, our psyker friend has to get glimpse and lucky online. To do this, he must roll 2.2 power dice (you'll have to reroll the die for glimpse a fifth of the time, even with an invocation). That's a bit more than a 20% chance of phenomena.

Without getting into perils of the warp, look a bit at the phenomena table. Many (most) of them would be destructive for sensitive equipment. If you get distorted reflection, spectral gale, the earth protects, psy discharge, falling upwards, banshee howl, the furies or tech-scorn, that sensitive piece of data you were working on might well be screwed. And of course, there's always the chance (small, but existing) of getting perils.

So even with all that, you're still not as good as the techie, who does basically all the tech-use on the highest difficulties with no risk of failure and no risk of psy-related crap. AND you've invested heavily in intelligence and tech-use, meaning you won't be investing in being almost as stealthy as the assassin, or being not-quite as golden-tongued as the scum.



Also, darkholder starts you at the 25 from voidborn, and then adds another +5 to willpower on top of that in its abilities. That's 30, +20 from a max stat.


Edit : Huh. Actually, you can't get glimpse and lucky at the same time. They both expire at the end of the next turn, so if get glimpse up one turn, then lucky up the next, glimpse is gone by the time you want to use tech-use. And vice-versa.

[Selrahc]

So even with all that, you're still not as good as the techie, who does basically all the tech-use on the highest difficulties with no risk of failure and no risk of psy-related crap. AND you've invested heavily in intelligence and tech-use, meaning you won't be investing in being almost as stealthy as the assassin, or being not-quite as golden-tongued as the scum.

Quite.

I think we're all agreed that the psyker is a very flexible class, capable of being specialized on a variety of different things and being around as good at them as the more traditional specialists.

But I would heavily disagree with the proposal that a psyker is going to be good at everything. Any particular psyker is going to have a few glaring weaknesses.

[Surrealistik]

Oh, actually, found it. Malfian noble-born gets you to 70 int.
And talented (Tech-use) can be gotten with duplicate talents from background packages.

Alright then, let's compare them in a Very Hard tech-use roll. Both have enough bonuses (+50 each from what I've seen) to end up rolling with a +20 modifier.
The techpriest has 70+20(tech-use)+20(bonus) = must roll under 110, so automatic success, with only the degrees of success being in question.
The psyker has 50+20(tech-use)+20(bonus) = must roll under 90 = 10% chance of failure (you'll note a pretty large investment of resources in int, tech-skills and equipment on the psyker's part).

So our psyker is not quite up to par with the techpriest, even at his best. But that's not all. Before he can even start to compete, our psyker friend has to get glimpse and lucky online. To do this, he must roll 2.2 power dice (you'll have to reroll the die for glimpse a fifth of the time, even with an invocation). That's a bit more than a 20% chance of phenomena.

Without getting into perils of the warp, look a bit at the phenomena table. Many (most) of them would be destructive for sensitive equipment. If you get distorted reflection, spectral gale, the earth protects, psy discharge, falling upwards, banshee howl, the furies or tech-scorn, that sensitive piece of data you were working on might well be screwed. And of course, there's always the chance (small, but existing) of getting perils.

So even with all that, you're still not as good as the techie, who does basically all the tech-use on the highest difficulties with no risk of failure and no risk of psy-related crap. AND you've invested heavily in intelligence and tech-use, meaning you won't be investing in being almost as stealthy as the assassin, or being not-quite as golden-tongued as the scum.


This is a flawed analysis.

First of all, the Psyker needs only roll 2 Psi Dice total for Glimpse and Lucky. Lucky is furthermore only necessary if an auto success is not possible. Invocation + Powerwell (purchasable multiple times) + Focus guarantees Glimpse succeeds with Psi 1. Lucky auto-succeeds on Psi 1 without Invocation.

Second, what's stopping the Psyker from applying all of the bonuses I've listed again? Essentially it comes down to my prior analysis with the Tech-Priest gaining another +10 for a total of +130 vs the Psyker's effective +140.

Third, why on earth would the Psyker attempt to excel at something he doesn't get skills for nor can invest in efficiently (Stealth/Social skills) at this point in the first place? He might not be able to sneak or bluff _as_ effectively, but he can do so very _well_; certain powers also act as auto-success short cuts to this: See Me Not for example. The fact is he can do almost everything at least well by rank 6 (thanks to Glimpse and the like), and he can even beat specialists at their own game. In otherwords at this point he has more flexibility and adaptability than any other career in DH period, and he has powers and abilities no one can even hope to come close to within his own field of specialty which simultaneously encompasses far more than any other.

I don't understand why people argue so hard against the very obvious fact that the Psyker is broken and blatantly overpowered. He's flat out, straight up Tier 1, 3.5 Wizard territory. People need to reconcile with the fact that Fantasy Flight Games/Black Library screwed the pooch with the career and that it is a glaring flaw in the system.


Also, darkholder starts you at the 25 from voidborn, and then adds another +5 to willpower on top of that in its abilities. That's 30, +20 from a max stat.

Right, forgot it was a subset of voidborn.

[Ranos]

First of all, the Psyker needs only roll 2 Psi Dice total for Glimpse and Lucky. Lucky is furthermore only necessary if an auto success is not possible. Invocation + Powerwell guarantees Glimpse succeeds with Psi 1. Lucky auto-succeeds on Psi 1 without Invocation.



Second, what's stopping the Psyker from applying all of the bonuses I've listed again? Essentially it comes down to my prior analysis with the Tech-Priest coming out ahead another +10 for a total of +130 vs the Psyker's +140.

Third, why on earth would the Psyker attempt to excel at something he doesn't get skills for nor can invest in efficiently (Stealth/Social skills) at this point? He might not be able to sneak or bluff _as_ effectively, but he can do so very _well_; certain powers also act as auto-success short cuts to this: See Me Not for example. The fact is he can do almost everything at least well by rank 6, and he can even beat specialists at their own game. In otherwords at this point he has more flexibility and adaptability than any class in DH, and he has power no one can hope to come close to within his own field of specialty.

I don't understand why people argue so hard against the very obvious fact that the Psyker is broken and blatantly overpowered. He's flat out, straight up Tier 1, 3.5 Wizard territory. People need to reconcile with the fact that Fantasy Flight Games/Black Library screwed the pooch with the class and that it is a glaring flaw in the system.



Right, forgot it was a subset of voidborn.
Well, the thing about lucky doesn't really matter, you can only really get glimpse. With a power well, that'll be 10% chance of phenomena then.
Note that I only included the phenomenas that might destroy tech, but even the other results you sometimes don't want to get - daemonic mask, warp ghosts, shadow of the warp, and warp madness all get you corruption or insanity, which will destroy you in the long run. Basically, about 60% of the phenomena results are bad news in this situation.

I did include all the bonuses you mentionned. 50 int +30 glimpse +20 tech-use + 10 combitool + 10 MIU -30 very hard difficulty works out to 90.
As for the techpriest, 70 int + 20 tech-use + 10 talented + 10 utility + 10 electro + 10 MIU + 10 foresight - 30 very hard works out to 110.

See me not is not even close to being as good as actual optimized stealth skills.


Sure, the psyker is by far the most powerful in the game, not disagreeing with you there. But it won't beat specialists at their game.

[Surrealistik]

Note that I only included the phenomenas that might destroy tech, but even the other results you sometimes don't want to get - daemonic mask, warp ghosts, shadow of the warp, and warp madness all get you corruption or insanity, which will destroy you in the long run. Basically, about 60% of the phenomena results are bad news in this situation.

Most of the phenomena results are probably negligible in reality. You also have the option of re-rolling phenomena.


I did include all the bonuses you mentionned. 50 int +30 glimpse +20 tech-use + 10 combitool + 10 MIU -30 very hard difficulty works out to 90.

Alright, but you erroneously included Talented(Tech-Use); the TP does not get that by Rank 6.

EDIT: And Foresight. TP doesn't get that by R6 either.

Further, keep in mind that some TP exclusive bonuses are situational. Electro-Graft requires connection to data points for example.

So, the gap between a R6 TP and an R6 Psyker is 0 with a data point, -10 (in the Psyker's favour) without a data point:

R6 Psyker: 50 Base + 20 Tech-Use + 10 Combi-tools + 10 MIU + 30 Glimpse = 120 (90 on Very Hard)

R6 Tech-Priest: 70 Base + 20 Tech-Use + 10 Utility + 10 MIU + 10 Electro-Graft = 120 (90 on Very Hard)



See me not is not even close to being as good as actual optimized stealth skills.

You're right; because it's actually often better and less conditional. Requires no cover, you can't be perceived in any way, etc...


Sure, the psyker is by far the most powerful in the game, not disagreeing with you there. But it won't beat specialists at their game.

It can, will and does. It will not beat all specialists at their game all the time, but it will beat many/most specialists at their game most if not all of the time, almost to the point of totally invalidating those careers. Blatantly broken design.


Edit : Huh. Actually, you can't get glimpse and lucky at the same time. They both expire at the end of the next turn, so if get glimpse up one turn, then lucky up the next, glimpse is gone by the time you want to use tech-use. And vice-versa.

Oh right, the lame rule they added to the 3.0 errata in response to comboing Psychic Powers with attacks while they left the worst offender (Force Barrage) completely untouched.

[Ranos]

Most of the phenomena results are probably negligible in reality. You also have the option of re-rolling phenomena.
Even if you reroll phenomenas, there are good chances that you'll end up with two bad results in this particular case.


Alright, but you erroneously included Talented(Tech-Use); the TP does not get that by Rank 6.
Take a background package with a talent already in your career list. Take the talent twice, once from your list, once from the package. That's a free Talented(any) right there.
I think there might be an alternate rank that gets it in a less shifty way by rank 6, but I can't remember which. Anyway, it is definitely obtainable.



Further, keep in mind that some TP exclusive bonuses are situational. Electro-Graft requires connection to data points for example.
So, the gap between a R6 TP and an R6 Psyker is 10 with a data point, 0 without a data point.

20 with, 10 without. Assuming the psykers invests a lot in tech-use. Them MIUs aren't cheap, and neither are the initial attributes and advancements.



You're right; because it's actually often better and less conditional. Requires no cover, you can't be perceived in any way, etc...

This is rank 6, you're not fighting little cultists anymore. Daemons are immune to see me not. Servitors are immune to see me not. Pict relays are immune to see me not. Techpriests are immune to see me not. Nulls are immune to see me not.

Plus, you either need to invoke or use a lot of dice to get it working immediately, and it only works on a few targets. The true sneakster doesn't care, he just walks past all the cameras, the guards, and everything, and is never caught unless he wants to be.

And no, he doesn't need cover. A simple blur suit will take care of that.

[Surrealistik]

Even if you reroll phenomenas, there are good chances that you'll end up with two bad results in this particular case.

There really aren't that many terrible phenomena results.


Take a background package with a talent already in your career list. Take the talent twice, once from your list, once from the package. That's a free Talented(any) right there.

Isn't that rule exclusive to Rogue Trader?


I think there might be an alternate rank that gets it in a less shifty way by rank 6, but I can't remember which. Anyway, it is definitely obtainable.

The above is the only way it's obtainable by R6 (assuming the above rule applies in DH) unless you're able to take a prestige career rank which has it.


20 with, 10 without. Assuming the psykers invests a lot in tech-use. Them MIUs aren't cheap, and neither are the initial attributes and advancements.


So, the gap between a R6 TP and an R6 Psyker is 0 with a data point, -10 (in the Psyker's favour) without a data point:

R6 Psyker: 50 Base + 20 Tech-Use + 10 Combi-tools + 10 MIU + 30 Glimpse = 120 (90 on Very Hard)

R6 Tech-Priest: 70 Base + 20 Tech-Use + 10 Utility + 10 MIU + 10 Electro-Graft = 120 (90 on Very Hard)


This is rank 6, you're not fighting little cultists anymore. Daemons are immune to see me not. Servitors are immune to see me not. Pict relays are immune to see me not. Techpriests are immune to see me not. Nulls are immune to see me not.

Plus, you either need to invoke or use a lot of dice to get it working immediately, and it only works on a few targets. The true sneakster doesn't care, he just walks past all the cameras, the guards, and everything, and is never caught unless he wants to be.

No. Nulls may be immune but as opponents are super rare. Servitors _might_ be immune (if they have 10 or less INT; not a guarantee). Daemons and TPs are _not_ immune; they cannot perceive you in any way, whether that be vision, sight, smell, infra red, or psyniscience.


And no, he doesn't need cover. A simple blur suit will take care of that.

Blur suit as per the RAW doesn't necessarily allow you to hide in plain sight; that relies completely on GM fiat.

[Ranos]

Isn't that rule exclusive to Rogue Trader?

Huh. Possibly. We've always used it in DH, but now that you ask me, I can't find it in the rulebook.

I did mess up on Foresight too, they don't get it at rank 6. Damn.

Edit : Then again, all you need to give the techpriest his edge back is add more bonuses, until you get bonus-capped (yes, that's a rule for all tests, not just combat tests, despite being in the combat section. See p197).
Let's add two servoskull assistants for example. You end up with
Psyker : 50 Base + 20 Tech-Use + (10 Combi-tools + 10 MIU + 30 Glimpse + 20 assistants - 30 very hard) = 50 + 20 + 30 = 100
Techie : 70 Base + 20 Tech-Use + (10 Utility + 10 MIU + 10 Electro-Graft + 20 assistants - 30 very hard) = 70 + 20 + 20 = 110

The techie is 10 ahead for very hard test, and 20 ahead for a test of any lower difficulty. Once he gets foresight or talented or any other bonus from another source I may have overlooked, he's always 20 ahead. Eh, not as significant as I expected, but the psyker did invest a ****load into his tech-use there. Even if we're talking equipment only, the servos are 1500 each, and the MIU is around there too. The techie doesn't care too much though, being a malfian noble-blooded. That plus the phenomenas.



As for see me not, daemons are immune to telepathy. So are machines.
And yes, I forgot about animals. They're immune too. And anyone with a decent willpower has good chances to resist it as well. It's not even an opposed check - if they pass a willpower test, they're home free.
See me not kind of sucks compared to high-level stealth.


Blur suit as per the RAW doesn't necessarily allow you to hide in plain sight; that relies completely on GM fiat.
Sure it does. It counts as "some concealing effect, such as darkness or smoke".

[Surrealistik]

Huh. Possibly. We've always used it in DH, but now that you ask me, I can't find it in the rulebook.

Yeah, pretty sure it's RT exclusive.


As for see me not, daemons are immune to telepathy. So are machines.

Ah yes, From Beyond. True also on the Machine trait.


And yes, I forgot about animals. They're immune too. And anyone with a decent willpower has good chances to resist it as well. It's not even an opposed check - if they pass a willpower test, they're home free.
See me not kind of sucks compared to high-level stealth.

You can easily get massive overbleed though on a Threshold 14, Overbleed 5 power. -10 each time makes it impossible, or highly improbable for many threats you'll face at this level to resist. Many Animals actually have a high enough Intelligence to be subject to the power; the iconic dumb Grox for example. Basically if it can work against your opponent, it's definitely better than stealth. That said, with Chameleon and proper gear, Psykers are actually quite proficient at exploiting conventional stealth.


Sure it does. It counts as "some concealing effect, such as darkness or smoke".

Total GM judgement call. The reason is because there is precedent for an item needing to state that you can actually do that; I believe the Slaught for example, have cloaks that explicitly allow them to hide in plain sight.

[profitofrage]

Ok...theres been alot of talk since I have been on.

Please I would like for you to give me the part of the book that says you cant dodge a psychic power such as Forcebolt?
You test to hit with your willpower, I.E your making a test that they can subsequently dodge your just using willpower instead of BS.

As to your caclulations You forget the shot is reducced by both toughness and armor and cover because its a hit test which cover can block.

The psyker getting powerful at level 6? good we want them to be, look at how there chareer has been UNTILL that point.
The psyker is immensly powerful at 6200 xp? they should be there psykers its part of the setting. Hes only "deadly" in straight combat or one of the specific broken builds youve given them. Outside of combat (2/3's of DH) hes mostly if not completly useless.
And the combat side of things he can only kill 8 combatants within a 10 meter grouping. Thats not including damage reduction on each bolt, dodging, cover. By that stage? they should be fighting far more then just 8 guys...its level 6 there nearly at the end. They should be fighting sorcerers casting weakened viel and the like which DOES increase the chance of perils.
In fact lets hope the sorcerer doesnt just swallow a bullet and make the psyker completly useless for 1d5 rounds.
The psyker is powerful...VERY powerful...at the end of the xp tree as they should be. Psykers by that stage should have gotten tempted by Daemons..and subsequently paid for it. been in several near death situations..probably even a few fate points burnt already.
Are they balanced? no, the psyker can do alot of things but thats the whole point of the class. This is 40K, psykers arnt found in every imperial guard pack..there the HQ's of the army. There meant to be more powerful then the guardsmen...but there also supposed to have there challenges outside of just phenomina that the other characters wont always need to deal with.
Tier 1 DnD wizard territory is when the one character can take on all the problems a party has...and ensure that the party has little to no effect anymore. This is simply do not believe, This isnt DnD where theres a spell for literally anything you can think of.
Where not at acsension yet..so all that bonus to initiative doesnt exist so the Psyker isnt going first everytime. There is no breaking the action economy..so he can only cast one power per turn OR focus power..lets hope hes not surprised.
There are PLENTY of situations that the other characters can be apart of. and plenty situations where they can contribute to the encounter.
psykers are powerful --> granted.
Psykers arnt balanced as of RAW --> granted (they should be given a hard life by a DM to reinforce a setting)
Psykers are game breaking --> not nearly as much as you seem to think.
I have an optimised party who went from 1 - 8 and one of them was a psyker. He had 69 willpower? or the like because getting max on all willpower increasing things (is hard) and there was perhaps only one or two instances where he soloed a combat. (which the rest of the party had done numerous times at one stage or another).
I never had problems with the psyker taking over the roles of the party...the psyker was always support..or considered "the big guns" for when truly horrifying things came there way (as the psyker should be)

EDIT: also id like to point out that the way the game is with damage and wounds Ive found the greatest threat to any party member is a Sniper out of range. There devistating on a party...and..well who better to shoot at first then the bald guy with the sanctioning marks all over him.

[nyarlathotep]

I think the biggest issue with psykers that ranks them a tier above (not tier 1 but a tier above) other classes is that their powers are outside of context to the other classes. They can radically alter the environment around them effectively being proactive and turning situations on their heads rather than being reactive like most other classes. Tech priests share this distinction to a degree.

Psykers are not above other classes the same way wizards are they are above them the same way bards are. They do their own shtick very well and all other shticks passably well; while the other classes are rogue, fighters, and the like only able to do their own shtick.

[profitofrage]

This i very much agree with.

Though one could argue that any other character could go into a particularly radical daemonic pact to gain epic sorcery...but thats more a GM decision then a game mechanic.

[Surrealistik]

I think the biggest issue with psykers that ranks them a tier above (not tier 1 but a tier above) other classes is that their powers are outside of context to the other classes. They can radically alter the environment around them effectively being proactive and turning situations on their heads rather than being reactive like most other classes. Tech priests share this distinction to a degree.

Psykers are not above other classes the same way wizards are they are above them the same way bards are. They do their own shtick very well and all other shticks passably well; while the other classes are rogue, fighters, and the like only about to do their own shtick.

No, this is simply not true. They do their own shtick better than any one else, and they do several other shticks at least as well as if not better than the specialists in that field. Furthermore, their shtick also encompasses other careers. For example, Force Barrage covers the Guardsman's combat angle, while Seal Wound covers Medicae, and Precision Telekinesis + Divination + Lesser Powers in general covers most skills, particularly Perception and Intelligence based skills. The Psyker at least approaches T1 by R6. Solidly in T1 by the time it gets Psi 5 and access to three Disciplines.



Please I would like for you to give me the part of the book that says you cant dodge a psychic power such as Forcebolt?
You test to hit with your willpower, I.E your making a test that they can subsequently dodge your just using willpower instead of BS.

It doesn't technically count as an attack since it doesn't utilize WS or BS, therefore it is not subject to Dodge as per the RAW.


As to your caclulations You forget the shot is reducced by both toughness and armor and cover because its a hit test which cover can block.

No I didn't. Only in extreme cases will Toughness and Armour allow the Autocannon to surpass Force Barrage. Assuming 4 Toughness and 4 Armour (perfectly reasonable), Force Barrage still deals 84.15 damage on average at Psi 4, Rank 6.

Cover can block Autocannon fire which makes it even worse. It cannot block Force Barrage which does not feature a Ballistic Skill Test.


In fact lets hope the sorcerer doesnt just swallow a bullet and make the psyker completly useless for 1d5 rounds.

Useless? You mean have him resort to KOing with Push? Psychic Blade? Firing a weapon with Precision Telekinesis? The Psyker doesn't even have to stray from this Discipline to still get the job done against an Impact immune opponent, but of course Firestorm is always a useful backup.


Tier 1 DnD wizard territory is when the one character can take on all the problems a party has...and ensure that the party has little to no effect anymore. This is simply do not believe, This isnt DnD where theres a spell for literally anything you can think of.

Precision Telekinesis (use WP instead of the normal Characteristic for anything that involves physical manipulation) + Glimpse/Lucky alone can pretty much allow the Psyker to outperform at almost any skill. Then there's his host of developed skills and other powers. He may not have a spell book as extensive as the Wizard's but the Psyker can still do virtually almost anything as well as if not better than the specialist.


Where not at acsension yet..so all that bonus to initiative doesnt exist so the Psyker isnt going first everytime. There is no breaking the action economy..so he can only cast one power per turn OR focus power..lets hope hes not surprised.

At R6, the Psyker can still have a ridiculous Initiative bonus that puts him heads and shoulders ahead of anyone else with Preternatural Dodge:

5.5 x 4 (Psi Rating) + 2 (Power Well) + 2 (Discipline Focus) + 7 (Invocation) + 7 (WP Bonus) = 40 which means 3 units of Overbleed, so the Psyker gains a 'mere' +28 bonus to his Initiative; he still goes first. Always. To add awesome to amazing, he gains a nice +20 Awareness bonus to enhance his already ridiculous Perception so he will never be caught by surprise.

Also, in my own experience in playing the Psyker, I basically dominated by R6 to Ascension and beyond; I diversified my powers, got utilities like Precision Telekinesis and Glimpse, and essentially did it all. Rarely were the other acolytes able to outshine me. The GM and me had to come to a gentleman's agreement so the game literally would not collapse under the weight of said imbal awesome.

[Ranos]

Eh, I think Surrealistik's convinced me, actually. The psyker class is much more powerful than I thought, and I did already consider it Tier 1.

I always thought that by properly optimizing other classes, you could compete with it, but looks like you just end up a little bit better at your own specialty, and a lot worse at everything else. Shame.

[profitofrage]

I suppose since you cant dodge force barrage by RAW (though you should via RAI) It does make force barrage rather broken.

The preternatural awarness is a sustained power. You have to reroll sustained powers every 10 rounds. considering a round is but a few seconds..youd have to make a new test every minute at least. So going first is extremly unlikely unless they know exactly when to put it on or there making hundreds of rolls each one having that chance at phenomina.

but asides from those two things, I suppose the psyker is unbalanced very late game. key word being late game.

If you can convince me a level 5 or lower psyker is broken then ill agree with you. but 2 levels out of 8 in my opinion is pretty damb good. Especially since at that point youll be fighting other psykers for which you need the psykers efforts in countering -- that or Daemons.
This is also in heavily optimised games, where the Psyker has literally done nothing but hoard the willpower he needs for these things. making it more likely that they die prior.

[Surrealistik]

The preternatural awarness is a sustained power. You have to reroll sustained powers every 10 rounds. considering a round is but a few seconds..youd have to make a new test every minute at least. So going first is extremly unlikely unless they know exactly when to put it on or there making hundreds of rolls each one having that chance at phenomina.

You don't get Phenomena when you sustain a power.


If you can convince me a level 5 or lower psyker is broken then ill agree with you. but 2 levels out of 8 in my opinion is pretty damb good. Especially since at that point youll be fighting other psykers for which you need the psykers efforts in countering -- that or Daemons.

Unfortunately unless the Psykers are about as twinked out as you are, it will be effortless, and if they are as twinked out, your party will get slaughtered wholesale. This is one of the things that necessitated said gentleman's agreement. Daemons aren't really fearsome unless they are essentially reskinned super Psykers.


This is also in heavily optimised games, where the Psyker has literally done nothing but hoard the willpower he needs for these things. making it more likely that they die prior.

I was very conscious of my own fragility and so horded Toughness, Perception and Agility alongside my WP. WP was always top priority, but I made advancing these things, picking up Armor and Dodge a priority. Chameleon and Distort Vision also helped a great deal.

[profitofrage]

If they fail to sustain it, they have to reroll to bring it back up is what i meant by chancing phenomina.
The big "always goes first" was a major issue and they dont have that unless there prepared to roll dice every minute in game time.
though this is trivial when they can still one hit kill almost anything.
More bothersome that they can steal the niches of other party members...though most careers can do that to other carreers anyway (though not as easily).
Optimised Psykers I suppose are broken, but I still think that DMing can help it to a degree. Unless there starting AT 6th level you have a whole lot of time to push the psyker to other options.
Of course in the end a player is probably more likely to die then give up a chance of optimisation.
I have yet to see these situations occur in all my games..but that doesnt mean it cant happen. And although I have yet to see how easily one could actually build a psyker to that level it cant be to hard if others have seen it to (have they?)
I guess youve convinced me to a point...but at least unlike the DnD wizard balancing it with homebrew would be rather easy.