What Scares the crap out of a level 20 party? [Archive]

sonofzeal

2011-03-14, 12:11 PM

Psychological horror. Threats don't have to be physical.

1 - A foe who doesn't care about them, outright avoids them, but keeps slaughtering hundreds of innocents including NPCs they've grown attached to. They can beat this foe in a fair fight, but it's not going to give it to them. All that's needed is a divination-blocker. Vecna-blooded, maybe? They can't beat what they can't find, and the bad guys could win without ever confronting the PCs directly. That'll terrify a 20th lvl party more than a dozen Beholder Magi.

2 - Cosmic horror. This doesn't mean regular horror on a larger scale, as previous posters have suggested. At this point, Cthulhu is just a halfdragon squid with the numbers raised. No, turn the universe itself against them. Choose something that every player in the party uses. If they all have magic, that's perfect. Now, make the source of that magic something terrible, something that corrupts reality itself. Have the true nature of the universe be a darker and more malevolent place than they ever suspected, and their magic is slowly peeling back that veneer of civility to reveal the awful truth. And the worst part is, they can't even use their magic to stop it, because that would just make it worse. They have to save the cosmos, but every step towards saving it just makes the problem worse. Soon there might be no hope at all....

3 - Insanity. Find the best roleplayer in the group, take him aside, and have something attacking his mind. Tsochari are perfect for this; one moment of a lowered guard while asleep, and a Tsochari parasite could take up residence. Or it could just be a descent into madness, for any number of reasons. Mindflayers work too. Whichever way, start passing secret notes back and forth. Have the PC acting more and more erratic. Distract the players with some other threat (say, the Blood War, or Ethergaunts, or other planar politics that'll give them heads to bonk for a bit), while the real threat of their compromised teammate develops out of control.

The Shadowmind

2011-03-14, 12:14 PM

Ten thousand Adamantine Clockwork Horrors.

With a Phrenic Great Wyrm Rust Dragon leading the horde.

Tyndmyr

2011-03-14, 12:18 PM

1 - A foe who doesn't care about them, ...

2 - Cosmic horror. ...

3 - Insanity....

While I love #2, I've found that #1 tends to come off more annoying than challenging or scary. It can be an interesting plot element, but you don't want to overuse it.

#3 has a strong tendancy to be solved by a dead party member.

ScionoftheVoid

2011-03-14, 12:20 PM

An advanced Aboleth, possibly advanced by class level. If that doesn't scare the party, slap on some divine ranks.

A heavily templated (i.e. flying, ranged attack using, etc.) Tarrasque. No more 5th level Wizards taunting this creature!

An NPC from about fifteen (or more) levels ago, who was actually behind everything the whole time, and is either incredibly powerful or is connected to people who are.

Possibly the most dangerous suggestion, an Emerald Legionnaire.

SilverSheriff

2011-03-14, 12:23 PM

A Character, made by a friend of mine, called Venn. Venn is a level 34 Lich Wizard, and in the hands of my friend he is quite capable of out-planning anyone. :smalleek:

arguskos

2011-03-14, 12:27 PM

One of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146964). Designed to challenge high-end parties, they're more than capable of slaughtering unwisely built level 20s, fighting reasonable level 20s to a stand-still (and coming back if they lost), and even being reasonably challenging (though not enough to reliably win) for well-put together level 20s. Highop obviously blows them away though, not debating that one.

If homebrew is out, I definitely suggest something that the level 20s can't directly handle. Any "enemy" that the characters can't actually directly deal with is terrifying, simply because if it can hurt you without actually being there or even vaguely near-by, it's got a level of power the players can't touch. The signs, from the Elder Evils are great for this, having a massive, world-wide, effect without even being THERE.

sonofzeal

2011-03-14, 12:28 PM

While I love #2, I've found that #1 tends to come off more annoying than challenging or scary. It can be an interesting plot element, but you don't want to overuse it.

#3 has a strong tendancy to be solved by a dead party member.
Well, #1 and #3 depend on how you handle them.

With #1, you need to actually be threatening something the players care about. The PCs care about their families, their countries, etc. The players care about different things. If they're good roleplayers, and invested in the game world, this will be easier. Every player has favourite NPCs. If the campaign's been going a while they might have a handfull of NPCs they'd miss. Kill one, put the others in danger. Make sure there's things the PCs can do, fights for them to have, but there should be a feeling of powerlessness, of real worry. Of course the heroes save the day in the end, and you should plan a way for that to happen, but it becomes a much scarier game when the PCs can win every battle and still lose the war. It means they have to try harder, and can't content themselves with merely relying on massive dominating force. If they have to out-think and out-plan the DM, that can scare them.

With #3, yeah there'll probably be PC casualties, and probably the player you choose to be compromised. But unless your PCs are soulless machines of xp and loot acquisition, and "roleplaying" something only chumps do, there'll be drama and passion and danger. A fellow PC might be able to take out the rest of the party, depending on how things go. That's not the plan, and the other player should know that's not the plan, but it's possible. Again, real danger, and a real challenge, no matter what level this is.

Quietus

2011-03-14, 12:31 PM

Accept that you can't scare the characters. They will respond as their players decree, regardless of whatever templates or levels you've given the creature of the day. You have to scare the players, not the characters.

Fastest way to scare the players? The unknown. Throw something at them that they have *no idea* what it is. It could be something as simple as taking the Tarrasque and making it look like something else, but the key to this is you need something that is obviously not an ally, and has abilities that can't be explained by class levels. Good descriptive skills work. But what you're going for is that moment when the two most well-versed people in the party look at each other, both hoping the other knows what's happening.. and realizing they don't know what this thing can do.

sonofzeal

2011-03-14, 12:31 PM

Possibly the most dangerous suggestion, an Emerald Legionnaire.
Good idea! This can be combined with my 1st suggestion - the PCs can win every battle against the Legion, and still lose the war. That makes a plot based around them scary at any level, barring epic spellcasting shenanigans.

Killer Angel

2011-03-14, 12:36 PM

A Character, made by a friend of mine, called Venn. Venn is a level 34 Lich Wizard, and in the hands of my friend he is quite capable of out-planning anyone. :smalleek:

A level 20 party, against a level 34 Lich Wizard, probably won't have the time to be scared.
They'll pass from "unsuspecting" to "dead" with no steps between.

SilverSheriff

2011-03-14, 12:43 PM

A level 20 party, against a level 34 Lich Wizard, probably won't have the time to be scared.
They'll pass from "unsuspecting" to "dead" with no steps between.

True.:smalltongue:

SurlySeraph

2011-03-14, 12:54 PM

A Living Spell of Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

arguskos

2011-03-14, 01:04 PM

A Living Spell of Mordenkainen's Disjunction.
Ooze Puppet. Oh look, a "lolBBEG" toy. :smalltongue:

Hawriel

2011-03-14, 01:15 PM

A Living Spell of Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

About time some one mentioned this.

GoatBoy

2011-03-14, 01:58 PM

Tucker's kobolds. (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/)

graeylin

2011-03-14, 02:09 PM

Combine the best ideas from above:

Your monsters at level 20 should also be in parties and packs: A dragon with some underlings, for example, to help wear down the party with spell casting, divine magic, etc..

Large hordes of smaller stuff: even a corp of Ogre's, with some Ogre Magii or Clerics as buffers/back up artillery, can slow down a party. PRovide some aerial cover with some harpies or so, and let your party wear themselves down a bit on the front lines, before they get to the lich or dragon or whatever is controlling them. Heck, 100 Level 3 mages casting grease, shout, summon swarm, etc. will drive your party crazy after a bit. Give them a bunch of eternal wands, and let them play.

Toss in a end time, so the party can't do 10 minute work days: Every time the party retreats, the BBEG's retreat too, and restock, and refresh, and rebuff. At this level, the BBEG should be able to get reinforcements as needed, if the party gives him time. Sick some evil pixies on the party as harrassment. Make sure that X happens in 24 hours, if the BBEG is not stopped. Hostages are good, you can always have a handful, and the penalty for stopping and recharging the party is death to a couple each time they do.

Summoning works for the BBEG too: Spend some spells calling in help. So do traps. Use them to harrass and bedevil the party, and make the party use up some spell slots, etc. Don't forget to buff your summons for extra fun!

If the BBEG is offensive, go for mass, bodies and numbers. IF the BBEG is defensive, go for traps, weird conditions, tight spaces, etc. to make the party work harder. A whole lot of skills/moves/features don't work so well when the hallway is only 4 foot tall, for example. Or the floor is covered to your chest in water. Or you are fighting in the boughs of 300 foot tall trees.

Basically, don't try to fight level 20 power with power: fight it with tactics, making the party choose paths, make decisions, allocate resources, and be off their familiar ground.

Add extra levels upon level to your BBEG minions: instead of a normal elemental, use a primal form elemental (extra oooomph, same look). Make the pixie larger. Make the rust monster invisible. Disguise the Ochre Jelly. Toss in some spore producing plants to make it tougher to move through an area. Use a swamp to restrict movement. Add Electricity to your Red Dragon. Have fun...

archon_huskie

2011-03-15, 09:17 AM

2 - Cosmic horror. This doesn't mean regular horror on a larger scale, as previous posters have suggested. At this point, Cthulhu is just a halfdragon squid with the numbers raised.

If that is Cthulhu, then you are doing him wrong.

Curmudgeon

2011-03-15, 09:37 AM

The party goes through a one-way dimensional portal, and discovers magic doesn't work/exist on the other side. :smallbiggrin:

archon_huskie

2011-03-15, 09:49 AM

Mechanically speaking, what is the highest DC a party member can make on a roll.

Imagine a level 20 wizard. He has a will save of +12 natually. Let's also say he has magic items and feats that boost that to +20. Now let's add that the wizard has a spell that will further boost it to +25.

The highest will save the character can make is a 45 on a nat 20.
use this thought process to custom make your challenges to your party.

So if the character faces a creature that has a gaze attack with a will save of +46, the character cannot make his save. (That is Cthulhu by the way, your defenses cannot counter him. Your attacks cannot hurt him. Against him you are impotent. Magic does not harm him. And then he eats his followers first sparing them the horrors of watching their world burn. Then he drives you insane. and eats you alive. The only way to stop him, is to make sure he contines to sleep in deep Ry'leh.)

druid91

2011-03-15, 09:53 AM

Something that doesn't follow the rules.

Curmudgeon

2011-03-15, 10:00 AM

Something that doesn't follow the rules.
That doesn't actually work all that well. The players spend their time being confused, with most of the effort in out-of-character discussion about what's going on behind the scenes. That doesn't leave much for in-character fear, so it's counterproductive.

Frozen_Feet

2011-03-15, 10:06 AM

(That is Cthulhu by the way, your defenses cannot counter him. Your attacks cannot hurt him. Against him you are impotent. Magic does not harm him. And then he eats his followers first sparing them the horrors of watching their world burn. Then he drives you insane. and eats you alive. The only way to stop him, is to make sure he contines to sleep in deep Ry'leh.)

You are overestimating Cthulhu, and underestimating ECL 20 parties.

By level 20, the player characters themselves are comparable to smalltime gods. They've fought lovecraftian horrors for at least five levels already. They might be lovecraftian horrors. Any limitations placed on ordinary mortals, they've long surpassed them.

Cthulhu, on the other hand, is nothing more than a priest. While the mythos stemming from Lovecraft's works has come to carry its name, in the actual stories it's made clear that Cthulhu was a small fish. Heck, the ocean was an obstacle to him, and a low-level Expert could survive encounter with it alive and show it the finger by ramming a steamboat at it.

At level 20, Wizards can throw around meteors. That's considered sub-optimal. I think they compare favorably to a steamboat.

To challenge Epic PCs, you have to move to things like Nyarlathothep or Azathoth. Cthulhu really is just a half-dragon squid with numbers raised.

Eldan

2011-03-15, 10:09 AM

Exactly that.

Yes, Cthulhu might drive you insane or eat you. So might any number of critters you have encountered for a long time.

He was defeated by sinking his city beneath the ocean and putting him to sleep. Sinking a small island should be a simple challenge for PCs at this level. They could probably drop a custom-built ocean on Cthulhu with some preparation.

druid91

2011-03-15, 10:18 AM

That doesn't actually work all that well. The players spend their time being confused, with most of the effort in out-of-character discussion about what's going on behind the scenes. That doesn't leave much for in-character fear, so it's counterproductive.

Perhaps your group is different... But whenever I have things doing stuff it shouldn't... Such as a human with hex portals. Or who seems able to become intangible at will. Or who disappears whenever struck.

It freaks people out.

Eldan

2011-03-15, 10:19 AM

Most groups I've seen just look at each other and assume the DM got a weird prestige class from a magazine somewhere, then proceed as normal.

Deathanyl

2011-03-15, 10:24 AM

A level 20 party, against a level 34 Lich Wizard, probably won't have the time to be scared.
They'll pass from "unsuspecting" to "dead" with no steps between.

Yep. my world has a 39th level 40 max named Bob every world should have a master lich necromancer, There great for handing out quests, or being the root of a larger problem:smallbiggrin:

On the thread, i find it depends on the class of the party as to what kind of "fear" i say "motivation" to keep adventuring. I find it's easier to let them make there own fears of failure bu around level 12-15 open up some class secret, or some ancient lore, that becomes a Quest unto itself. and then the chance of failing at that as a player so not "wining" in the end will put fear in 'em! Making the player feel invested in the character is the key.

Eldan

2011-03-15, 10:27 AM

druid91

2011-03-15, 10:32 AM

Most groups I've seen just look at each other and assume the DM got a weird prestige class from a magazine somewhere, then proceed as normal.

After being informed he is a first level commoner?:smallamused:

Eldan

2011-03-15, 10:38 AM

That's just the DM giving them wrong information first. It's obviously not true.

First level commoner can't do this -> Not a first level commoner -> everything's okay.

sonofzeal

2011-03-15, 10:38 AM

If that is Cthulhu, then you are doing him wrong.
That's exactly the point. But if you take a lvl 20 party that doesn't fear anything, and say "omg there's Cthulhu", that's what they'll see. And if his stats are high enough, maybe they'll lose. Still, the whole point I was trying to make was that Cosmic Horror should be so much more than that. Cthulhu isn't terrifying merely because he's bigger and stronger and tougher than us. Cthulhu is terrifying because he represents a fundamentally malevolent and alien universe, in which humanity shrinks beyond insignificance. Go for that, not just halfdragon squids.

Zanatos777

2011-03-15, 10:39 AM

After being informed he is a first level commoner?:smallamused:

Then they assume obscure template.

druid91

2011-03-15, 10:47 AM

Anyway, what they assume doesn't matter. When things like this turn up everywhere but they can't prove it happened.

I like to run my games with a lot of mist in the way.

Grommen

2011-03-15, 10:52 AM

druid91

2011-03-15, 10:58 AM

Telling them that the campaign is over and they have to retire and start 1st level characters again.

O that nothing happend for sooo long that they all died of old age. Even the elves. Nothing stops the march of time!

That's why I play Elans. Take that Father Time! This is one foe you can't beat alone! Now if he teams up with Uncle Probability on the other hand.... :smalleek::smallfrown:

Crow

2011-03-15, 11:02 AM

Something that doesn't follow the rules.

Ditto this.

Depending on how much MM-fu your party does, homebrewed monsters and abilities will scare the crap out of them. Especially if the abilities are put on a creature that the players (not the characters) know.

Take that, metagaming!

archon_huskie

2011-03-15, 12:57 PM

Ditto this.

Depending on how much MM-fu your party does, homebrewed monsters and abilities will scare the crap out of them. Especially if the abilities are put on a creature that the players (not the characters) know.

Take that, metagaming!

I once freaked dwarf paladin out by saying he saw something purple with his dark vision.

Voldecanter

2011-03-30, 10:34 AM

Yep. my world has a 39th level 40 max named Bob every world should have a master lich necromancer, There great for handing out quests, or being the root of a larger problem:smallbiggrin:

On the thread, i find it depends on the class of the party as to what kind of "fear" i say "motivation" to keep adventuring. I find it's easier to let them make there own fears of failure bu around level 12-15 open up some class secret, or some ancient lore, that becomes a Quest unto itself. and then the chance of failing at that as a player so not "wining" in the end will put fear in 'em! Making the player feel invested in the character is the key.

A level 39th Level Lich of ultimate Power, he should just proclaim to be a God.........but Wizard's who are good at shaping reality are always a good way to "Strike Fear" into the hearts of Player's.......You should have seen this one Wizard My fellow Players are going up against, A level 24 Satyr Elementalist who is able to pull out all the stops when it comes to Wizard Cheese, now that is scary.

I find most evil doers to be Evil Wizards regardless of party composition, I think most DM's throw the Wizard at them every time because it sucks knowing that your one: Power Word Death away from "failure".

Malevolence

2011-03-30, 10:37 AM

Properly designed enemy casters.

Tokuhara

2011-03-30, 11:09 AM

I actually love tweaking the rules to do what I want, especially with higher-level players. I once ran an encounter around 22nd level with a Brain in a Jar with levels and a unique ability and 7 or so chumps who were powerful, but not amazing. When the PCs killed off the chump blockers, they did "finish off" the Brain. As the party tried to leave, they realized the barrier that was in place to stop them from retreatin hadn't fallen. Then a mook rose up with a weird blue glow in his eyes: the Brain had transfered his sentience into the chump's corpse. He did that for almost 3 hours alone. They eventually realized that the room had several gems in it that allowed him to do this. They eventually one, but anytime the party's exit was cut off, they freaked out and redied themselves for the insanity above.

As a question however, how are Tucker's Kobolds so terrifying? Is it the fact that they use the terrain, or is it some underlying ability

Tyndmyr

2011-03-30, 11:19 AM

Ditto this.

Depending on how much MM-fu your party does, homebrewed monsters and abilities will scare the crap out of them. Especially if the abilities are put on a creature that the players (not the characters) know.

Take that, metagaming!

That has never scared me. That has merely informed me that the GM has given up on playing the game by the rules, and has resorted to inventing crap. Thus, this is probably the highest point on the power curve they're capable of effectively GMing for.

Note that refluffing and such is all well and good if metagaming is a problem...but that's an entirely separate problem from how to design challenging/scary high level encounters.

Eldariel

2011-03-30, 11:22 AM

CR 21 Gray Elf. They know they're ****ed as soon as they sense the overwhelming magic aura.

archon_huskie

2011-03-30, 03:04 PM

That has never scared me. That has merely informed me that the GM has given up on playing the game by the rules, and has resorted to inventing crap. Thus, this is probably the highest point on the power curve they're capable of effectively GMing for.

Note that refluffing and such is all well and good if metagaming is a problem...but that's an entirely separate problem from how to design challenging/scary high level encounters.

Adjusting the abilities scores of creatures is playing by the rules. have you ever actually read the DMG?

NichG

2011-03-30, 04:48 PM

I've found that one of the scariest things, regardless of your level of power, is being unable to trust your own senses. It takes a good DM to pull it off, because its all based on playing it perfectly straight until the twist, at which point you show that everything you've been saying for the last hour has been a complete lie. Even better if you drop clues that the player can only figure out after the fact.

In the game I'm in, there are several places that are basically traps. The Paradox realm, for instance, contains all the universes that were unmade due to alterations of the timeline. If you alter the timeline too much, the rest of the universe just keeps going on its way and you end up in the paradox realm. The thing is, from your point of view, there's no way to tell - events continue just like normal for you, and eventually dissolve into solipsism as your disconnected timeline fails to experience things happening in the rest of the campaign.

At one point we bought a backpack with a random dimensional portal in it at a supernatural auction hall. We decided to go exploring. The place on the other side seemed interesting, and stuff was going on, so we acted as normal. Except occasionally we'd get little bits of static over our comms, or other little weird things we assumed were the local physics acting up. The more we looked into things, the weirder it got. One person in the party had the power to tell what time it was, and got 'Chapter 1' as his answer rather than a normal result.

So we decided to portal home to make sure everything was alright, and that we hadn't gotten stuck somehow. This seemed to work fine, and we got back to our home base. But the weird static continued. We kind of shrugged it off and went about our usual stuff for a bit, but eventually we realized that the static was actually a very faint voice. And that it was the voice of someone from our base, indistinctly asking after us. We went and found him, and he had no memory or knowledge of communicating with us, and the voice static continued even when we were talking with the guy.

So now we're getting worried, since we know about places like this by reputation. We pull out various forms of cosmic power we had acquired (things that eject you from the cosmos as a whole, things that obliterate dimensional walls, etc), and we get self-consistent results - it looks like they work to free us. But we're still a bit unsure... how could we know? And then we get the static again. Worse yet, a few of these require splitting the party (only one of us could survive 'outside', etc), so when they return, we're not sure if its really them or a time-duplicate.

By the end of it, we managed to hear the voice on the comms and formulate an escape plan that involved acting simultaneously on both sides, but even after we got out there was a bit of 'did everyone actually get out, or is he just a copy?' for a few games after.

Endarire

2011-03-30, 06:44 PM

The campaign ending.

paddyfool

2011-03-30, 07:09 PM

There were a few entries in Afro's old Vote up a Villain threads that might suffice... this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5814382&postcount=416) might freak them out, but could require advancement first to be on par. This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5910625&postcount=595), otoh, would be overkill. On the whole, the sweet spot would be to accelerate the timetable intended for the campaign around this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5453448&postcount=492), to keep the PCs running scared for a good few levels.

Firechanter

2011-03-30, 07:18 PM

One very fearsome boss I had (or may have again) to deal with is - in a fairly low-magic setting with lots of nerfed or banned spells - a Huge Troll, Captain of the Orc King's Guard, with an absurd amount of HP, Str through the roof, some 25% physical damage immunity, immunity to certain "bosskiller" spells, fast healing (I forget how much, but significant HP per round), high spell resistance, good saves, and and other ways to make a party's life miserable. Basically you can forget magic, and have to take him toe-to-toe.
Plus he had two deputies that also are pretty tough. The only achilles heel we were able to make out was that he's not crit-immune and not per se immune to ability damage.

Once we were able to get out of it alive because we had a Cleric with heaps of Heal spells. But one day we will have to return, and when the day comes we're going to bring a Rogue who, hopefully, will Crippling Strike him into the middle of the next Age. But seriously, my char for that campaign is level 24 and I'm still seriously worried that bugger will wipe us.

JaronK

2011-03-30, 07:36 PM

I find a single smart enemy to be an amazingly scary thing. A Wizard who's using Astral Projection in fights so he's always engaging the party and then learning about them... then coming back and trying again.

I actually found that keeping to the rules and not making custom monsters made it even scarier... if they know it's a smart Wizard coming after them, they can imagine all the possible attacks he could use. Perception is the key to fear, after all.

JaronK

Kittenwolf

2011-03-30, 09:58 PM

There is one thing that scares the crap out of any party above about 5th level. One thing that no matter who or what you are (barring a few exceptions of course) will result in pants-wetting Terror, something that can make even the most mighty PC cry him/herself to sleep.

Mordenkeinan's Disjunction!

NOTHING scares a party more than all their magic items going bye bye.

So either a mage specialised to be able to throw out at least two of these spells per round, and/or a Living Mordenkeinan's Disjunction.

Even if the party will probably win in the end, it's the ultimate Phyrric Victory

Hida Reju

2011-03-31, 12:43 AM

You want to scare a party many of the best ideas have already been stated. But the one I would use is pretty simple.

War never changes.

Put the characters in the middle of a World war with them being the only ones that know the reasons why its broke out. Put them on a clock to stop it before millions march to their deaths.

Another good one Undead horde marching across the land. It does not sleep, it does not eat (mostly), often the people it kills rise up to join, it will not stop regardless of casualties or defeat of its individual units. Put the players to work trying to find the source and destroy it before the whole world goes dark.

Basically if the enemy numbers in the millions and is stretched over 100s of miles there is no way they can be everywhere at once and have enough power to stop them all. They have to find another way to deal with it and that is the whole point.

Get over the I'm a 20th lvl cosmic power wielding thing and realize that you may be the most powerful group on the planet but like Superman choices have to be made that cost people lives.

Save a few people on one side of the country and watch a bus crash and die somewhere else.

Daftendirekt

2011-03-31, 12:56 AM

Reminds me of a game we were once in, actually...

You see, around the metropolis we had adventured for about 15 levels, there were five very narrow and steep peaks that towered over everything.

At level 16, we found out it was the claws from the hand of a demon that was buried there. When it finally managed to dig it self out.

That. Is so ****ing epic.

I've found that one of the scariest things, regardless of your level of power, is being unable to trust your own senses. It takes a good DM to pull it off, because its all based on playing it perfectly straight until the twist, at which point you show that everything you've been saying for the last hour has been a complete lie. Even better if you drop clues that the player can only figure out after the fact.

In the game I'm in, there are several places that are basically traps. The Paradox realm, for instance, contains all the universes that were unmade due to alterations of the timeline. If you alter the timeline too much, the rest of the universe just keeps going on its way and you end up in the paradox realm. The thing is, from your point of view, there's no way to tell - events continue just like normal for you, and eventually dissolve into solipsism as your disconnected timeline fails to experience things happening in the rest of the campaign.

At one point we bought a backpack with a random dimensional portal in it at a supernatural auction hall. We decided to go exploring. The place on the other side seemed interesting, and stuff was going on, so we acted as normal. Except occasionally we'd get little bits of static over our comms, or other little weird things we assumed were the local physics acting up. The more we looked into things, the weirder it got. One person in the party had the power to tell what time it was, and got 'Chapter 1' as his answer rather than a normal result.

So we decided to portal home to make sure everything was alright, and that we hadn't gotten stuck somehow. This seemed to work fine, and we got back to our home base. But the weird static continued. We kind of shrugged it off and went about our usual stuff for a bit, but eventually we realized that the static was actually a very faint voice. And that it was the voice of someone from our base, indistinctly asking after us. We went and found him, and he had no memory or knowledge of communicating with us, and the voice static continued even when we were talking with the guy.

So now we're getting worried, since we know about places like this by reputation. We pull out various forms of cosmic power we had acquired (things that eject you from the cosmos as a whole, things that obliterate dimensional walls, etc), and we get self-consistent results - it looks like they work to free us. But we're still a bit unsure... how could we know? And then we get the static again. Worse yet, a few of these require splitting the party (only one of us could survive 'outside', etc), so when they return, we're not sure if its really them or a time-duplicate.

By the end of it, we managed to hear the voice on the comms and formulate an escape plan that involved acting simultaneously on both sides, but even after we got out there was a bit of 'did everyone actually get out, or is he just a copy?' for a few games after.

That too.

Firechanter

2011-03-31, 03:34 AM

Mordenkeinan's Disjunction!

That's basically true, but to really create that fear, you have to let the players find out well in advance that the bugger has the spell. Otherwise it's just a typical boss fight, the usual doctrine "geek the mage first!" applies anyway, and if the mage casts Disjunction out of the blue you have your players thoroughly frustrated, but not afraid - there was no time to become afraid beforehand, and now they are already screwed.

But, yeah, have them find out via scrying or rumours or some other event that the villain is able and willing to use Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and they will be very careful, at least.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-31, 04:35 AM

Apocalypse from the Sky, using one the original Pact Primeval as it's material component. :smallbiggrin:

Doomboy911

2011-03-31, 06:17 AM

Make an army made of goblins. Let them fight thinking this is easy, one of them takes a hit no issue.After awhile it gets tiring and scary, they just keep coming and coming.After they've killed some stuff have some of them turn into zombies.

Tyndmyr

2011-03-31, 06:24 AM

Adjusting the abilities scores of creatures is playing by the rules. have you ever actually read the DMG?

Homebrewed Monsters and abilities /= adjusting ability scores.

And adjusting ability scores is not inherently that scary either. Oh, now it's an advanced orc instead of a normal orc. Eh. That doesn't inspire fear.

I find a single smart enemy to be an amazingly scary thing. A Wizard who's using Astral Projection in fights so he's always engaging the party and then learning about them... then coming back and trying again.

I actually found that keeping to the rules and not making custom monsters made it even scarier... if they know it's a smart Wizard coming after them, they can imagine all the possible attacks he could use. Perception is the key to fear, after all.

JaronK

This. The most powerful weapon you can use to create fear is the players own imaginations. Give them a reason to start looking for things to fear...and they'll find them for you.

And yeah...a disjunction being cast on you isn't scary...the threat of a disjunction being cast on you is. It builds tension when you find out your adversary CAN do it, but the tension goes away when it happens.

Make an army made of goblins. Let them fight thinking this is easy, one of them takes a hit no issue.After awhile it gets tiring and scary, they just keep coming and coming.After they've killed some stuff have some of them turn into zombies.

Fear is not boredom. The "they just keep coming" might suck in real life, but in game, it's just more of the same. The unknown is scary. Suspense is scary. Another goblin, just like the last is not scary. And in D&D, a zombie goblin really isn't upping the scary level much.

archon_huskie

2011-03-31, 06:59 AM

Homebrewed Monsters and abilities /= adjusting ability scores.

And adjusting ability scores is not inherently that scary either. Oh, now it's an advanced orc instead of a normal orc. Eh. That doesn't inspire fear.

This. The most powerful weapon you can use to create fear is the players own imaginations. Give them a reason to start looking for things to fear...and they'll find them for you.

And yeah...a disjunction being cast on you isn't scary...the threat of a disjunction being cast on you is. It builds tension when you find out your adversary CAN do it, but the tension goes away when it happens.

Fear is not boredom. The "they just keep coming" might suck in real life, but in game, it's just more of the same. The unknown is scary. Suspense is scary. Another goblin, just like the last is not scary. And in D&D, a zombie goblin really isn't upping the scary level much.

In other words, use your players' imaginations but not your own.
Yeah that makes sense.

Malevolence

2011-03-31, 08:30 AM

There is one thing that scares the crap out of any DM above about 5th level. One thing that no matter who or what you are (barring a few exceptions of course) will result in pants-wetting Terror, something that can make even the most mighty DM cry him/herself to sleep.

Game's Disjunction!

NOTHING scares a DM more than a party who just had all their magic items go bye bye.

So either a mage specialised to be able to throw out at least two of these spells per round, and/or a Living Game's Disjunction.

Even if the DM will probably win in the end, it's the ultimate Phyrric Victory

I fixed that for you. It's a great way to scare the DM, as he will have every right to be afraid once he sees his player's reactions. It is however a terrible way to scare the players, as they will be too busy having fury, and then leaving you scared and alone to be at all afraid. And then they will simply carry on without you.

TurtleKing

2011-03-31, 10:47 AM

Here is a creature that could scare them. An advanced Phasm. With the ability to turn into basically anything they can keep the party guessing. So why choose one type of creature when you could throw basically all of them in one package at them. Oh yea it being there messing with you is mostly likely just for the fun it. You caught its fancy, and it wants to see what you're like.

Kantolin

2011-03-31, 11:02 AM

Rust monsters?

faceroll

2011-03-31, 12:40 PM

Anything that's mysterious and seems to circumvent things that shouldn't be circumvented.

I fixed that for you. It's a great way to scare the DM, as he will have every right to be afraid once he sees his player's reactions. It is however a terrible way to scare the players, as they will be too busy having fury, and then leaving you scared and alone to be at all afraid. And then they will simply carry on without you.

Haha, players get so entitled.

Malevolence

2011-03-31, 02:33 PM

Haha, players get so entitled.

There are some things that should always be considered in poor taste, no matter how tolerant and understanding a crowd you are interacting with. Forced retirement of high level characters, who have presumably been played for years is one of those things.

When you do such things anyways, you should not be surprised to get very negative and/or hostile reactions.

Eldariel

2011-03-31, 02:47 PM

There are some things that should always be considered in poor taste, no matter how tolerant and understanding a crowd you are interacting with. Forced retirement of high level characters, who have presumably been played for years is one of those things.

When you do such things anyways, you should not be surprised to get very negative and/or hostile reactions.

Disjunction is a part of the game though and characters better be more than sums of their equipment; they still have their levels to work with far as mechanics are concerned and those can amount to far more than any amount of equipment. Truly powerful characters don't need equipment.

NNescio

2011-03-31, 03:02 PM

Malevolence

2011-03-31, 03:04 PM

Disjunction is a part of the game though and characters better be more than sums of their equipment; they still have their levels to work with far as mechanics are concerned and those can amount to far more than any amount of equipment. Truly powerful characters don't need equipment.

If you want characters to not be equipment dependent you are playing the wrong system. Infinite Wish loops are a part of the game too. Bets on how likely it is the players destroy your campaign immediately after?

If you force characters that have presumably been played for years into forced retirement for reasons that cannot possibly be justified in character, and are therefore just a more elaborate version of rocks dropping and mass deceasing occurring you had better believe you will have a table full of angry players. If they were your friend, they're not anymore. It's called Game Disjunction for a reason. That reason is because it takes about as long to adjudicate as it does to make new, replacement high level characters.

Eldariel

2011-03-31, 04:04 PM

If you want characters to not be equipment dependent you are playing the wrong system.

No. The system works just fine with very few items, it's just the anyways-****ed warriors who are even more effed without equipment. But it's a high level game; friends don't let friends play warriors there anyways. It's only a problem if other bigger problems are in play in the first place. And frankly, CR has broken down long ago so equipment or not, you can't really use it for anything but vague guesses near twenties.

NNescio

2011-03-31, 04:19 PM

Eldariel

2011-03-31, 05:33 PM

Level 20 wizard with no magic items vs Level 17 wizard with full WBL. Level 20 wizard gets splattered.

Level 15 Wizard with full WBL vs. level 17 Wizard with no WBL, level 15 Wizard gets splattered (assuming his whole WBL isn't dedicated to consumables of 9th level spells, which is not sustainable and as such not relevant for a character existing in a game as opposed to a one-shot). Your point? Losing items is a part of the game and WBL is a guideline. A guideline you can throw out of the window if it suits the game/you/your players. Of course items make you stronger but they're in no ways necessary to making a solid caster, beyond some non-magicals like Spell Component Pouch and focuses/material components.

Martial characters are also part of the game, and friends don't tell friends not to play martial characters if they really want to play martial characters.

If you're playing a level 20 game, playing a pure martial character is going to gimp you though.

NNescio

2011-03-31, 06:22 PM

Level 15 Wizard with full WBL vs. level 17 Wizard with no WBL, level 15 Wizard gets splattered (assuming his whole WBL isn't dedicated to consumables of 9th level spells, which is not sustainable and as such not relevant for a character existing in a game as opposed to a one-shot). Your point? Losing items is a part of the game and WBL is a guideline. A guideline you can throw out of the window if it suits the game/you/your players. Of course items make you stronger but they're in no ways necessary to making a solid caster, beyond some non-magicals like Spell Component Pouch and focuses/material components. ...

Point is that "near twenties", assuming both combatants have access to 9th level spells, WBL matters far more than the CL, saves, spellslots, and feat differences. Since well, WBL can buy most of those stuff. And some more.

And Level 15? Far away from the "near twenties" you stated earlier.

NichG

2011-03-31, 07:10 PM

If this is a low-optimization party, the loss of items will be sad but you can count the effect in the difficulty of the encounter you throw at them. Not a big deal since at low-optimization most items will be numerical bonuses and not weird stuff.

If this is a high-optimization party, they should have the means to generate arbitrary amounts of wealth to replace their lost equipment. And besides, why are they failing saves versus the Disjunction consistently? Their saves should far exceed the DC of the effect at that level of play, and items just get popped on a failed save (its the spells that just die, so people with lots of Permanency'd crap have a really bad day).

Disjunction is only really really bad if there are people in the party with, say, Item Familiars, in which case that one save has a disproportionate effect on them compared to everyone else in the party. Mostly it just slows the game to a crawl as everyone has to make four dozen will saves for all their stuff.

Also, easy fix for Disjunction suckage: let Miracle or Wish restore a disjuncted item to normal function. Ostensibly, thats something they should be able to do anyhow (under the 'reverse misfortune' clause).

If you really want to be a jerk, there's always Flux Slime.

Eldariel

2011-03-31, 07:24 PM

Point is that "near twenties", assuming both combatants have access to 9th level spells, WBL matters far more than the CL, saves, spellslots, and feat differences. Since well, WBL can buy most of those stuff. And some more.

And Level 15? Far away from the "near twenties" you stated earlier.

Well, straight Wizard doesn't gain anything substantial other than endurance over the last 3 levels hence that being a rather irrelevant comparison. Wizard 17 and Wizard 20 have very similar peak performance, just Wizard 20 has more endurance. Things change if we add PrCs, of course.

Level 15 though, I'd contest that; it's pre-epic already. But if you will, 16 and 18 will end up very similarly and they're both up there. Yes, if two Wizards have 9s the one with more wealth will likely have an advantage, but the difference between spell levels tends to overshadow the difference between wealth; in other words, as long as new spell levels are being unlocked, the power of class features is more relevant than the power of items.

And again, my original point was that you don't need wealth to adventure on level 20. Hell, it's hard to find CR 20 challenge a Wizard 20 with his WBL could defeat but one without would lose to, other than something mirrorish. I mean, just try it. Play a high level campaign with minimal (mostly mundane) wealth and see for yourself. I can tell you out of experience that if you can make high level D&D work, you can make it work with lots or little equipment.

faceroll

2011-03-31, 11:08 PM

If you force characters that have presumably been played for years into forced retirement for reasons that cannot possibly be justified in character

Yeah, you are way over-valuing the importance of magic items, bro. It's easy enough to make more, once you're at level 15+, anyway. Or buy more. Sell that castle you're sitting on or whatever. But you and I probably play the game for different reasons.

That reason is because it takes about as long to adjudicate as it does to make new, replacement high level characters.

I've never, ever, ever seen anyone ever QQ about using chained greater dispel to get the same effect. Why.

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 07:58 AM

No. The system works just fine with very few items, it's just the anyways-****ed warriors who are even more effed without equipment. But it's a high level game; friends don't let friends play warriors there anyways. It's only a problem if other bigger problems are in play in the first place. And frankly, CR has broken down long ago so equipment or not, you can't really use it for anything but vague guesses near twenties.

If by just fine you mean spontaneously explodes, and then has its fragments sucked into a black hole before the black hole is OMNONOMed by Cthlulu you are correct. Otherwise you are dead wrong.

If you lose even one item, you are better off dead. You have enough items that you will roll at least 1 natural 1. That is called forced character retirement.

Yeah, you are way over-valuing the importance of magic items, bro. It's easy enough to make more, once you're at level 15+, anyway. Or buy more. Sell that castle you're sitting on or whatever. But you and I probably play the game for different reasons.

It is D&D. Your value as a person is directly proportional to your value, measured in gp of useful magic items being personally used by you.

I've never, ever, ever seen anyone ever QQ about using chained greater dispel to get the same effect. Why.

Chained Greater Dispel turns off buffs, and turns off items for 1d4 rounds. Which means they're down for the rest of the combat, not forever. Chained Greater Dispel produces the same meaningful effect, without completely destroying your own treasure, game, and character. Granted you'll probably die while all your stats are down a FULL D20, or close to it, but that's still a better deal than Game Disjunction.

And if you play a high level anything with low wealth, you automatically lose the moment an enemy gets a single action, because all of your stats are horrid. And enemies WILL get a single action, because your DCs and Init will be terrible.

Eldariel

2011-04-01, 08:13 AM

If by just fine you mean spontaneously explodes, and then has its fragments sucked into a black hole before the black hole is OMNONOMed by Cthlulu you are correct. Otherwise you are dead wrong.

If you lose even one item, you are better off dead. You have enough items that you will roll at least 1 natural 1. That is called forced character retirement.

Who cares? Don't retire the character. You're still fine. And honestly, when death is "25000 GP", there better be fates worse than death. It seems like you've got some idea that the game should be constant acquisition with no losses. No, the game is a cycle of gains and losses. Your characters will gain stuff and they will lose stuff. I don't see what's the big deal about the "losing stuff"-half; haven't you been gaining stuff all game? It's about time you lose some.

And if you play a high level anything with low wealth, you automatically lose the moment an enemy gets a single action, because all of your stats are horrid. And enemies WILL get a single action, because your DCs and Init will be terrible.

Only if you don't know how to cast spells.

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 09:32 AM

Who cares? Don't retire the character. You're still fine. And honestly, when death is "25000 GP", there better be fates worse than death. It seems like you've got some idea that the game should be constant acquisition with no losses. No, the game is a cycle of gains and losses. Your characters will gain stuff and they will lose stuff. I don't see what's the big deal about the "losing stuff"-half; haven't you been gaining stuff all game? It's about time you lose some.

Then you are stuck playing someone who has forcibly been gimped into uselessness by a DM on a power trip. This being after playing a character a while and getting attached to them. There are a series of threads around here that demonstrates how players react to such behavior.

Only if you don't know how to cast spells.

Your enemies have spells, and also have items. They rofflestomp you. You lose instantly. Even things like beatsticks could honestly kill you, as your stats will all be horrid. You're not as equipment dependent as a beatstick, but you ARE equipment dependent, and you're a waste of space without said equipment.

TurtleKing

2011-04-01, 10:13 AM

Has this thread gone off course?

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 10:17 AM

Has this thread gone off course?

I dunno, you tell me.

http://netdna.copyblogger.com/images/train_wreck.jpg

Eldariel

2011-04-01, 10:26 AM

Then you are stuck playing someone who has forcibly been gimped into uselessness by a DM on a power trip. This being after playing a character a while and getting attached to them. There are a series of threads around here that demonstrates how players react to such behavior.

If you don't like losing items, you're playing the wrong system. It's a natural part of every high level encounter since it's the optimal source of action for both parties to use effects such as Disjunction. Items will be destroyed. There is no power trip involved; it's simply a matter of presenting challenging encounters by the guidelines.

And players better use it too or they're at a severe disadvantage (not crippling, mind you). Luckily gear is likewise a guideline so you don't have to face fully stacked up opponents every time and indeed, it's quite logical their wealth will be low due to the plentitude of Disjunctions flying around.

Your enemies have spells, and also have items. They rofflestomp you. You lose instantly. Even things like beatsticks could honestly kill you, as your stats will all be horrid. You're not as equipment dependent as a beatstick, but you ARE equipment dependent, and you're a waste of space without said equipment.

You can replicate almost all (and all the standard) static bonuses with spells. Resistance-line grants save-bonuses superior to the comparable items. Plenty of spells grant enhancement-bonuses to stats. You get more Deflection, Natural Armor, Armor & Shield-bonuses from equipment than you can ever get from items.

Flat numbers are not the reason to have equipment; equipment is used to get more tricks or in the case of casters, make your tricks last longer. What does a DMM Cleric get? A ton of Nightsticks and some caster level buffs; that's literally all he cares about. So without it, he has few less persisted spells and casts at CL 20; onoez! Nor are the numbers be-all end-all in high level spell encounters; those come down to strategy, line of effect, location and prescience. Both have the ability to act at basically any point so it's more of a matter of layered wards, Contingency wordings, effects blocking all vision, divinations and so on.

Tokuhara

2011-04-01, 10:43 AM

I'll fix this:

Like stated above, an unknown enemy is truly terrifying. I know from first-hand experience:

I was running a 10-12th level Eberron campaign (It's been a while, so the details are kinda fuzzy) with a moderately optimized party (a Shifter Agnakok (Primal Wizard)/Incantrix, a Gray Elf Warblade/Eternal Blade, a Changeling Bard/Sublime Chord, a Whisper Gnome Spellthief/Sorcerer, and a Warforged Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard) who were in Waterdeep and had never heared of a Doppelganger. They were sent to find an assassin known as Shiva. I had her being a 15th level Doppelganger Rogue 5/Assassin 2 (found a Monster class for it, which was 8 levels) who was adept at using her unique "talents" to terrify my players. This went on for around 4 sessions where Shiva would kill somebody near the PCs and they never saw her switch forms (I fudged the time of her "Face-Swapping") and they were trying to find an assassin who could be anyone. She then started attacking the PCs using guises of former bosses/shopkeepers/favorite NPCs, but when she hit low HP, she'd play dead and wait for them to leave, then she'd fix herself up and continue with the mind games. Then the PCs would see the NPC and try to kill them, thinking it was them who tried to kill them. So much joy watching them squirm, thinking the whole city of Waterdeep was out to get them. Eventually however, the Spelthief figured out that the assassin could be a "shapeshifter," and they all were petrified of the fact that Shiva could be anyone.

Tetsubo 57

2011-04-01, 11:16 AM

A Living Spell of Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

This gets my vote.

Tokuhara

2011-04-01, 11:22 AM

This gets my vote.

I disagree. This may be a good idea in concept, but in practice, it is a cluster to run against. You basically need to do something sub-optimal just to beat the darned thing. However, an unknown foe is IMO much more terrifying. "Sure, you all are a highly-optimized super party, but that is all useless when you cannot find out what the heck this thing is" tactic is far more satasfying to scare the party. As a side note however, both of these tactics could be combied to allow for the Living Spell to look like any old foe, then suddenly blast a Disjunction. Very satasfying if the target appears to be a non-spellcaster (such as a fighter)

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 11:47 AM

If you don't like losing items, you're playing the wrong system. It's a natural part of every high level encounter since it's the optimal source of action for both parties to use effects such as Disjunction. Items will be destroyed. There is no power trip involved; it's simply a matter of presenting challenging encounters by the guidelines.

No, it is always a horrible idea to destroy your own treasure, and you are always destroying your own treasure with Game Disjunction. The optimal action is Chain Greater Dispel + Save or Die them while their saves are down a full D20, then loot.

How often do you have to get new players, by any chance? Because I'd imagine it's very often, if you actually pull these stunts on people.

And players better use it too or they're at a severe disadvantage (not crippling, mind you). Luckily gear is likewise a guideline so you don't have to face fully stacked up opponents every time and indeed, it's quite logical their wealth will be low due to the plentitude of Disjunctions flying around.

Yes, destroy your own treasure. That's a great idea. It ranks right up there with making full attack actions on yourself, hugging Mind Flayers while wearing a school girl uniform, and playing a Monk.

Hi Welcome

So, back to the actual topic. Which means scaring a level 20 party, not getting yourself excommunicated from your gaming circle.

Enemy casters. Not Game Disjunction herp de derpers, but enemy casters. Who are actually intelligent. Such a caster can easily endure the party's attacks, even if they are caster heavy themselves and throw terrible things right back at them. Those who have the ability to do anything are inherently unpredictable after all. At the very least they are capable of everything the party is.

Eldariel

2011-04-01, 11:59 AM

No, it is always a horrible idea to destroy your own treasure, and you are always destroying your own treasure with Game Disjunction. The optimal action is Chain Greater Dispel + Save or Die them while their saves are down a full D20, then loot.

How often do you have to get new players, by any chance? Because I'd imagine it's very often, if you actually pull these stunts on people.

Never thus far; we play with the same group of friends. Chain Dispel has:
1) CL cap
2) Cares about CL

If your opponent's CL is higher (yeah, the game isn't all about matching up against exactly equal numbers on both sides), Disjunction tends to be preferable. You also can't bring their Wards down with targeted Dispel consistently unless you're a specifically built Abjurer-specialist Wizard.

Yes, destroy your own treasure. That's a great idea. It ranks right up there with making full attack actions on yourself, hugging Mind Flayers while wearing a school girl uniform, and playing a Monk.

It's preferable to dying or getting no treasure. Disjunction isn't the whole game on high levels but it's a relevant part of it. And no, games don't disintegrate because of a Disjunction; that would be an extremely petty group of gamers that probably shouldn't have been playing together in the first place. There's a rather large minigame built around resolving, and defending against, Disjunction.

But frankly, I'm not gonna bother responding here anymore; it's eminently clear that we'll never see eye-to-eye on the matter and it's extremely derailing to the thread.

Tyndmyr

2011-04-01, 12:10 PM

In other words, use your players' imaginations but not your own.
Yeah that makes sense.

You misunderstand. You are not trying to make yourself afraid...you are trying to make the players afraid.

Not showing everything is a horror movie staple for the simple reason that nothing you can portray is as scary as the unknown. You use the unknown to allow those you wish to scare to fill in things that are scary to them.

Sure, you can SAY it's a shambling zombie...and then the player immediately knows what it is, and all fear is gone. Sure, if a zombie appeared in real life, it'd be scary...but in D&D? Not at all. They know what it is, they know how to kill it, and it presents no real threat. There is no reason for fear.

Haha, players get so entitled.

Not really the problem. The problem is that fear is something you need to build. Something bad happening does not always evoke fear. Say a completely unexpected trap hits a player, and he dies from it. Bam. He's not afraid...he might be annoyed, or dissapointed, or whatever, but the bad event appeared and was past almost immediately.

Fear is instilled by the knowledge that something bad is coming. Once it happens, the fear is gone.

So, discovering the BBEGs backup spellbook and realizing it has Disjunction and other nasty spells in it is scary. Just getting hit with a random Disjunction is not.

That said, Disjunction is ALWAYS something to use with extreme care. I won't say to never, ever use it...but be aware of the level of cost it imposes, and in games where you expect to destroy huge quantities of items, you should probably compensate in some way. Also note that, IC, Disjunction would tend to be avoided in many cases simply because destroying potential loot is undesirable.

Tokuhara

2011-04-01, 12:20 PM

Tyndmyr, you deserve a cookie for that brilliance.

Fear isn't a one-shot effect like getting hit by a Heavily Metamagic-ed Fireball. It's subtile, like being hit by a Vampire's Con-drain ability while being dominated. Sure, shock value is good, but true fear takes a long time to accomplish. Think of how a truly scary movie is: It doesn't just slam you with shocking images, it draws you into the story, then drops subtile hints that something is amiss, then it builds up, scaling graually until..... BAM! The bad thing happens.

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 01:47 PM

Never thus far; we play with the same group of friends. Chain Dispel has:
1) CL cap
2) Cares about CL

If your opponent's CL is higher (yeah, the game isn't all about matching up against exactly equal numbers on both sides), Disjunction tends to be preferable. You also can't bring their Wards down with targeted Dispel consistently unless you're a specifically built Abjurer-specialist Wizard.

It's trivial to get Dispel checks up. And items have CLs of 8 for almost every item that matters. That means you automatically succeed in turning off every item that matters even with zero optimization. And you don't destroy your own loot.

Also, are you by any chance related to Psycho? You two would get along great.

It's preferable to dying or getting no treasure. Disjunction isn't the whole game on high levels but it's a relevant part of it. And no, games don't disintegrate because of a Disjunction; that would be an extremely petty group of gamers that probably shouldn't have been playing together in the first place. There's a rather large minigame built around resolving, and defending against, Disjunction.

If you die, you lose less than if you cast Game Disjunction, or an enemy does, regardless of what else is happening. If you're getting no treasure, it's probably because you cast Game Disjunction.

Eldariel

2011-04-01, 01:54 PM

It's trivial to get Dispel checks up. And items have CLs of 8 for almost every item that matters. That means you automatically succeed in turning off every item that matters even with zero optimization. And you don't destroy your own loot.

Disjunction's primary purpose is to remove buffs, not shut down items... There's no check necessary for that. And Dispel-checks are trivial to buff but so are the DCs to dispel. And Dispel-checks cap out while the DC doesn't. And I'm pretty sure you know all this and are just posting for the sake of argument. I really didn't wanna respond but posts like that don't really leave much choice do they?

Also, are you by any chance related to Psycho? You two would get along great.

Yes, ad hominems. Excellent argument there.

If you die, you lose less than if you cast Game Disjunction, or an enemy does, regardless of what else is happening. If you're getting no treasure, it's probably because you cast Game Disjunction.

If you let the BBEG ascend to godhood, it doesn't really matter what loot you do, or do not get.

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 01:57 PM

Tyndmyr

2011-04-01, 01:58 PM

Eldariel

2011-04-01, 02:02 PM

If he even has the capability to consider being a god, you automatically lose no matter what. Casting a spell to disjoin the game in no way changes this. You might as well make your action be to put on a jester suit and river dance.

Why are you so vehemently determined that a game is spoiled if Disjunction is cast? How many times have you DMed a game where that has happened?

And frankly, if the BBEG is a level 20 caster performing some elaborate plan that leads to him becoming a divinity, it's eminently interruptable. That's the plot of some classic modules, for example. Chances are Disjunction is a helpful piece for winning such a fight; in some cases it may even be necessary (I can think of a few builds where you need Disjunction or few extremely esoteric classes you aren't necessarily guaranteed to have access to to truly threaten the target).

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 02:04 PM

For what it's worth, I've been on these boards a while, and Eldariel and Psycho have never seemed particularly similar.

Disjunction is the optimal choice in certain situations, yes. Those situations where the greater potency is more important than the loot. Typically, situations where you don't expect to win. Nuke and teleport out is a viable strategy, and you've weakened your adversary in the long term.

This is not a strategy you should be using as your bread and butter, but they are cases where it comes up.

In such an instance, you screw yourself worse than if said enemy kills the entire party, and you delete and reroll. If, as is more likely the case you win anyways, well you've cheated yourself out of a ton of nice loot. Not to mention if they outclass you that bad they'll just scry and fry you, and that's that.

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 02:05 PM

Why are you so vehemently determined that a game is spoiled if Disjunction is cast? How many times have you DMed a game where that has happened?

Because games are immediately and irrevocably ruined once Game Disjunction is cast, that is why it is Game Disjunction.

The Cat Goddess

2011-04-01, 02:12 PM

"What Scares the crap out of a level 20 party?"

The idea of me playing my LE Necromancer. I can describe my character's motivations and actions so calmly and eerily that the players just beg me to stop.

Also, the idea of me playing a Mindbender. :belkar:

Eldariel

2011-04-01, 02:12 PM

Because games are immediately and irrevocably ruined once Game Disjunction is cast, that is why it is Game Disjunction.

"Because"; you haven't given any reasons other than "just because". You haven't even posted personal experiences, let alone any hard crunch as to why possibly losing wealth is somehow game-ruining. It can be more expensive than dying; so what? Why is it bad that something is more expensive than dying? Why is it bad if the game doesn't strictly follow WBL guidelines? Hell, on those levels generating wealth is pretty trivial; see F&K's Wish-based currency model as an example.

Never in my time in the Char Ops forums did anyone frown upon Disjunction being a piece of the solution to a problem. Indeed, e.g. Twice-Betrayer's defenses are layered behind AMFs; Disjunction is one of the very few ways, and the only commonly available way of affecting those defenses. If Disjunction is not used, what do you do when faced with a foe with magical defenses under AMF? Do you try to Invoke Magic your way through? Seems unlikely 4th level spell is going to do much good there. Hope you have Incantatrix/Initiate to shape it or act through it? That's far less of a given than access to Disjunction. Why would you not use the only available solution?

Tyndmyr

2011-04-01, 02:13 PM

In such an instance, you screw yourself worse than if said enemy kills the entire party, and you delete and reroll. If, as is more likely the case you win anyways, well you've cheated yourself out of a ton of nice loot. Not to mention if they outclass you that bad they'll just scry and fry you, and that's that.

Scry is defeatable. At the level at which you have disjunction, you should be using Mind Blank. If not, well...you deserve to get destroyed.

This tactic is utilized when you stumble into a situation you can't win, and need to get out anyhow. The point is not to use Disjunction to win...if you can win without Disjunction, you do not use Disjunction. The point is to limit their capability to act, reducing their relative power to you, on your way out. In general, this will take place in a single round, before they can act.

This does not in any way hurt you...you were not getting that loot anyway. It's merely a giant "screw you" to them as you get out. A strategic victory, not one that is about garnering more power.

I would not assume that a TPK would lead to an increase in party power, personally. Not every DM is going to let you start at the same level with the same loot.

Daftendirekt

2011-04-01, 02:21 PM

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 02:26 PM

"Because"; you haven't given any reasons other than "just because". You haven't even posted personal experiences, let alone any hard crunch as to why possibly losing wealth is somehow game-ruining. It can be more expensive than dying; so what? Why is it bad that something is more expensive than dying? Why is it bad if the game doesn't strictly follow WBL guidelines? Hell, on those levels generating wealth is pretty trivial; see F&K's Wish-based currency model as an example.

If you are playing high level D&D at all, and you have not long since learned WBL is vital for your very ongoing existence, then I question whether you have self awareness or not, because it really is that obvious. Your hand waving and dragging someone's houserules in this doesn't change anything. In fact using those particular houserules means you lose things that can never, ever be replaced, as they have values in excess of 15k. So instead of just being down wealth and never getting it back, you're down wealth and never getting it back, and even with new wealth you don't get new items.

Never in my time in the Char Ops forums did anyone frown upon Disjunction being a piece of the solution to a problem. Indeed, e.g. Twice-Betrayer's defenses are layered behind AMFs; Disjunction is one of the very few ways, and the only commonly available way of affecting those defenses. If Disjunction is not used, what do you do when faced with a foe with magical defenses under AMF? Do you try to Invoke Magic your way through? Seems unlikely 4th level spell is going to do much good there. Hope you have Incantatrix/Initiate to shape it or act through it? That's far less of a given than access to Disjunction. Why would you not use the only available solution?

No one takes TO crap seriously, with one notable exception who shall remain nameless.

NNescio

2011-04-01, 02:27 PM

How has a changeling (or a player playing a changeling) never heard of a doppelganger? Not sure if you mean the players hadnt heard of them, or the characters. Either way, changelings are literally just lesser doppelgangers. In character or out, how would that character/player at least not know?

It's sort of like a half-dragon not knowing what a dragon is.

Hmm...

"I thought Pa was a regular human and my powers just came out of nowhere!" (or alternatively: "I'm a mutant!")

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 02:33 PM

Scry is defeatable. At the level at which you have disjunction, you should be using Mind Blank. If not, well...you deserve to get destroyed.

You are minimum level 17+. The enemy is assumed to hopelessly outclass you. This means they have Epic Spellcasting and laugh at your Mind Blank.

This tactic is utilized when you stumble into a situation you can't win, and need to get out anyhow. The point is not to use Disjunction to win...if you can win without Disjunction, you do not use Disjunction. The point is to limit their capability to act, reducing their relative power to you, on your way out. In general, this will take place in a single round, before they can act.

Except that you had to scribe Game Disjunction into your spellbook and ready it today or select it as a spell known in advance. So if you do stumble into a situation you can't win, even if disjoining your game would help, and it would not you can't do so, so you delete and reroll instead. Not to mention that by the time the enemy has established they hopelessly outclass you, at least half of you are dead, because that is what hopeless outclassing means.

Having everyone die, and make new characters is still a better deal than continuing any campaign in which Game Disjunction is cast by anyone at any time.

Eldariel

2011-04-01, 02:40 PM

If you are playing high level D&D at all, and you have not long since learned WBL is vital for your very ongoing existence, then I question whether you have self awareness or not, because it really is that obvious. Your hand waving and dragging someone's houserules in this doesn't change anything. In fact using those particular houserules means you lose things that can never, ever be replaced, as they have values in excess of 15k. So instead of just being down wealth and never getting it back, you're down wealth and never getting it back, and even with new wealth you don't get new items.

WBL is a guideline, not a rule. It means nothing concrete and is completely irrelevant for real games. What in the game is based on WBL? Let's see:
- CR: An already-unusable system and as such, losing it loses nothing.
- ...that's about it.

So yeah, you ignore WBL guidelines 'cause you want to place wealth at a different point in the game or better, let it evolve organically and in the process you lose CR. Are you saying that ignoring a guideline means it a different game? Even though it's, y'know, not even a rule and as such is still being played by the exact same rules?

And for the record, Wish-economy works in RAW 3.5; has nothing to do with F&K's houserules though it continues to function under them too. It was merely codified by them since it wasn't suggested in Core 3.X; it's more or less only a natural conclusion of bound outsiders being forced to grant wishes.

Also, AMF-functioning casters are definitely still within practical optimization ranges, though at the higher ends of the optimization scale. The game is not inherently unplayable with them, no numbers scale infinitely and it's really just an efficient means of defense (though very efficient at that). Games on that level are, and have been played.

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 02:46 PM

ITT: More handwaving substituting for actual solid arguments. Who cast Topic Disjunction? And is there anything left productive here?

Tyndmyr

2011-04-01, 03:21 PM

You are minimum level 17+. The enemy is assumed to hopelessly outclass you. This means they have Epic Spellcasting and laugh at your Mind Blank.

Not necessarily. You may not be facing merely one opponent. Consider an instance where you, the level 17 wizard, stumble(or sneak, or teleport, or whatever) into a hoard of similarly powered foes. Evil caster cabal, whatever. You are detected.

The logical thing to do is celerity, fire off whatever you can in that single round, then contingent teleport your way out(typically triggered by a word, in my case). Then probably keep teleporting, just in case anyone has Trace Teleport, and get to somewhere safe. Depending on the cabal, "safe" may be fairly hard to do.

If you have a Disjunction prepared in such a circumstance, it is a prime candidate. It will actually matter to the wizards. First, among those who have buffs affected, it'll force them to choose between pursuing you lacking defensive buffs and delaying to rebuff. Secondly, it'll cause them permanent damage by destroying items.

Except that you had to scribe Game Disjunction into your spellbook and ready it today or select it as a spell known in advance. So if you do stumble into a situation you can't win, even if disjoining your game would help, and it would not you can't do so, so you delete and reroll instead. Not to mention that by the time the enemy has established they hopelessly outclass you, at least half of you are dead, because that is what hopeless outclassing means.

I will admit that I prefer more general purpose spells to highly situational ones like disjunction. Not everyone shares these preferences. I might run one disjunction eventually, after I get a nice collection of 9th level slots, but many other spells would take priority in most situations. The exception would be if I knowingly prepared for a situation similar to the above.

The idea of dying and rerolling every time you run into a fight you can't win would mean, in my games and other games run reasonably close to RAW, you're unlikely to ever reach levels high enough for disjunction to matter.

Having everyone die, and make new characters is still a better deal than continuing any campaign in which Game Disjunction is cast by anyone at any time.

5% of encounters are supposed to be overwhelming. IE, run away time. In such fights, things that help you escape or prevent your opponents from killing you are of the utmost important. Avoiding death is a significant component of optimization. If you just attack everything, you'll probably die in most of that 5%. So, you'll probably make it to ooh, about level three before you have to reroll. Good luck with that.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-01, 03:26 PM

It's sort of like a half-dragon not knowing what a dragon is.

Hmm...

"I thought Pa was a regular human and my powers just came out of nowhere!" (or alternatively: "I'm a mutant!")

That is quite possible, if no one ever tells them their parentage.

TurtleKing

2011-04-01, 03:55 PM

@ Malevolence: If you think D&D is like a video game as you coming off as then check out the several MMORPGs past Stage Left. Death is not trivial in D&D. In WOW and several others they are by waiting to respawn. D&D does not have that so surviving should be one of your top goals not always getting loot. Plus if you continue to always try to get loot then have fun with the cursed items.

Edit: Spelling.

Malevolence

2011-04-01, 05:07 PM

Not necessarily. You may not be facing merely one opponent. Consider an instance where you, the level 17 wizard, stumble(or sneak, or teleport, or whatever) into a hoard of similarly powered foes. Evil caster cabal, whatever. You are detected.

The logical thing to do is celerity, fire off whatever you can in that single round, then contingent teleport your way out(typically triggered by a word, in my case). Then probably keep teleporting, just in case anyone has Trace Teleport, and get to somewhere safe. Depending on the cabal, "safe" may be fairly hard to do.

You get a turn, you cast Time Stop, you enact a no save, you die combo. You profit. You do not destroy your game. See how easy that was?

The idea of dying and rerolling every time you run into a fight you can't win would mean, in my games and other games run reasonably close to RAW, you're unlikely to ever reach levels high enough for disjunction to matter.

Or you just win anyways, which isn't that hard, especially given that you can't run. Worst case, you have no choice.

5% of encounters are supposed to be overwhelming. IE, run away time. In such fights, things that help you escape or prevent your opponents from killing you are of the utmost important. Avoiding death is a significant component of optimization. If you just attack everything, you'll probably die in most of that 5%. So, you'll probably make it to ooh, about level three before you have to reroll. Good luck with that.

I am very much aware of the 5% rule. But in such a case, your only option is to stand and deliver or die trying.

@ Malevolence: If you think D&D is like a video game as you coming off as then check out the several MMORPGs past Stage Left. Death is not trivial in D&D. In WOW and several others they are by waiting to respawn. D&D does not have that so surviving should be one of your top goals not always getting loot. Plus if you continue to always try to get loot then have fun with the cursed items.

Edit: Spelling.

Video games have nothing to do with it.

Hi Welcome

Death is trivial in D&D, as it's a minor gold tax. It's also inevitable in D&D, the only question is how much. For properly designed characters, the answer is not often, so you aren't crippled by the death tax. For poorly made characters, you lose because you can't progress. Obvious straw man is obvious.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-01, 05:21 PM

Death is trivial in D&D, as it's a minor gold tax. It's also inevitable in D&D, the only question is how much. For properly designed characters, the answer is not often, so you aren't crippled by the death tax. For poorly made characters, you lose because you can't progress.

"Roleplaying is about WINNING!"

TurtleKing

2011-04-01, 05:45 PM

Hiro Protagonest

2011-04-01, 06:01 PM

So the Beholder Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190796) Thread made me wonder...

What CR 20-24 Encounter can really give your average (Not Tainted Scol, Non-ubercharger) level 20 party not only a run for it's money, but really make them crap themselves?

And then really, is there anything in that CR range that can scare a well optimised (not TO) party at 20?

A 20th level gestalt adventuring party made up of a factotum/warblade, factotum/swordsage, sorcerer/wizard, and crusader/cleric.

NNescio

2011-04-01, 06:12 PM

A 20th level gestalt adventuring party made up of a factotum/warblade, factotum/swordsage, sorcerer/wizard, and crusader/cleric.

Sorcerer//Wizard is a bit underwhelming. (compared to factotum//wizard)

Hiro Protagonest

2011-04-01, 06:14 PM

Sorcerer//Wizard is a bit underwhelming. (compared to factotum//wizard)

Eh, factotum/sorcerer or factotum/wizard is better, I guess.

paddyfool

2011-04-01, 07:09 PM

A 20th level gestalt adventuring party made up of a factotum/warblade, factotum/swordsage, sorcerer/wizard, and crusader/cleric.

I see you and raise you a Factotum // Wizard, a Crusader // Druid, a Swordsage // Cleric, and a Warblade // Artificer.

Runestar

2011-04-01, 07:51 PM

Why are you so vehemently determined that a game is spoiled if Disjunction is cast? How many times have you DMed a game where that has happened?

To me, it is not spoiled, in that the game can still continue, but much of the motivation for playing may already have been ruined. It is just not worth the time to play with what is a shadow of his former self.

It is like if you were playing Diablo2, and after having spent countless hours and resources acquiring really powerful gear, only to have your account hacked into and all your stuff stolen. You can still play with your lv90 character, but without all that uber gear (and faced with the mind-numbing prospect of having to farm/trade for that gear all over again), I would probably go "Just forget it, I will roll up a new character and start a new game".

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-01, 08:19 PM

It is like if you were playing Diablo2, and after having spent countless hours and resources acquiring really powerful gear, only to have your account hacked into and all your stuff stolen.

:|

Okay, I guess this is more of my personal preference than anything, but if I wanted to play Diablo 2, then I'd play Diablo 2.

If your aim is to get phat lootz, kill monsters, and level up - your only aim - I'd want to ask what you're doing playing a Roleplaying game in the first place.

Runestar

2011-04-01, 08:56 PM

If your aim is to get phat lootz, kill monsters, and level up - your only aim - I'd want to ask what you're doing playing a Roleplaying game in the first place.

Obviously for the roleplaying, but the thing is that dnd isn't wholly about roleplaying.

It has its fair share of combat (or at least my games do), and it is not the best roleplaying in the world which determines if your rogue dodges that dragon's fiery breath or whether you hit the balor, but hard cold stats. What does your disjuncted party do when the talk is over and it is time to roll the dice?

Given the heavy reliance on magic gear in dnd, the most beautifully roleplayed elf in the universe is just another stain in the wall without her gear, because "fluffing" it only gets you so far. That's the sad, hard truth.

I rollplay, and I roleplay. I find I can't really divorce one from the other. Well, maybe I can, it just wouldn't be fun (at least for me).

NichG

2011-04-01, 09:58 PM

I really think this is a player psychology thing. There's nothing at all stopping a DM from giving you weaker challenges when your gear has dropped precipitously, such that your loss of gear is just an event, not a death sentence.

I know players who absolutely cannot stand the idea of themselves or even the party getting at all weaker, due to anything whatsoever. They're the type to sacrifice their PC permanently to prevent someone else from permanently losing a level (they wouldn't do it to save their family, mind you, just to prevent them from losing a level). In extreme cases, you get behavior like 'let the kingdom burn, I'm saving my sword'.

That said, if you have players like this, and you're willing to run for that sort of person, it'd be bad form to have a campaign all about losing power.

herrhauptmann

2011-04-02, 12:36 AM

You misunderstand. You are not trying to make yourself afraid...you are trying to make the players afraid.

Not showing everything is a horror movie staple for the simple reason that nothing you can portray is as scary as the unknown. You use the unknown to allow those you wish to scare to fill in things that are scary to them.

Sure, you can SAY it's a shambling zombie...and then the player immediately knows what it is, and all fear is gone. Sure, if a zombie appeared in real life, it'd be scary...but in D&D? Not at all. They know what it is, they know how to kill it, and it presents no real threat. There is no reason for fear.

I agree here so badly that it hurts. However, I really don't think that most "scary/horror movies" these days really do that. Just up the gore and do shaky camera effects. :(

Things that are scary to a high level party.
I'd say that a balor fight they're unprepared for would be scary. Especially if it seems likely the balor has class levels.

Present them with things they don't expect. They're sneaking around during 'daytime' and discover a coffin on a raised bier in a ruined temple. Numerous tracks of footprints overlapping each other lead to and from the coffin. The party will likely lift the lid to try and kill the vampire.
Too bad it isn't a vampire, but a deathknight or other intelligent undead having a little fun. Imagine their terror when their normal anti-vampire stuff doesn't work.

Malevolence

2011-04-02, 07:36 AM

Many people play D&D and other table top RPGs to have fun in a cooperative way. Many people play many different types of video games competively so as to win. So which one do fall under?

I stand by an advanced Phasm by class levels and/or templates is the scariest. Basically the vast majority of the monster manuals in one creature. The unkown part is not knowing in what way it will try to kill you. So why choose one creature to be afraid of when you could choose them all.

You are competing with the enemies, who are trying to kill you and take your stuff.

And speaking of stuff, there's gear checks everywhere at these levels. Fail a gear check = head explode. Guess what Game Disjunction greatly raises the chances of through no fault of your own? That's right, failing the ever present gear checks to continue playing.

NNescio

2011-04-02, 07:41 AM

:|

Okay, I guess this is more of my personal preference than anything, but if I wanted to play Diablo 2, then I'd play Diablo 2.

If your aim is to get phat lootz, kill monsters, and level up - your only aim - I'd want to ask what you're doing playing a Roleplaying game in the first place.

On a tangential note... (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/diabloitems)

TurtleKing

2011-04-02, 07:41 AM

Gear check:smallconfused:? Where in 3.5 do you find gear check? Besides it is possible to play without gear. The main way being through VoP feat.

Eldariel

2011-04-02, 10:25 AM

Gear check:smallconfused:? Where in 3.5 do you find gear check? Besides it is possible to play without gear. The main way being through VoP feat.

I'll say this: VoP only gives you the numeric bonuses; not all the effects you'd actually want. It's not really a replacement. That said, it's not in any way relevant to the question at hand. Which is not really in any way relevant to the thread at hand.

Tyndmyr said it the best; fear of the potential threat yet to occur. Fear of the unknown also works; "What the hell is this?!" kind of reactions tend to be saturated with it.

archon_huskie

2011-04-02, 01:37 PM

I'd like to revisit my suggestion of Cthulu two pages back.

If the evil cult successfully performs its ritual, Cthulu wakes.

But Cthulu is an on-level challenge for them. they can defeat him.
But to spice it up, if Cthulu is defeated, Dagon, Hastur, the King in Yellow , and all the rest awaken and go looking for their priest. (Individually, these guys are just above the player's level. Collectively, these creatures are way above level for the party.)

So if Cthulhu wakens, the party needs to focus on getting him back to sleep instead.

It is fine to use your own homebrewed monsters for this too so the players will have the unknown challenge added.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-02, 01:42 PM

ScionoftheVoid

2011-04-02, 03:01 PM

Cthulhu alone is more than enough for a fairly optimized 20th level party.

Wasn't Cthulu fairly severly damaged by a ship ramming into it? 20th level PCs are far, far more powerful than that. Some will be able to throw ships. Multiple times in six-second combat rounds. Not seeing this as a challenge, somehow.

I could be wrong, I don't know much about the mythos, but 20th level PCs are often thought of as nearing or passing demigods for a reason. Optimised 20th level characters are going to obliterate a great many challenges without breaking a sweat.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-02, 03:13 PM

Actually, that ship didn't solidly hit him.

Cthulhu is basically the laziest high priest there ever was. The ship didn't ram him, but he didn't bother getting out of the way. He exploded and reconstituted - letting the ship move through him, rather than it having to stop or go around - presumably because he was too sleepy to notice that he could have just moved a few feet over instead of making the laws of physics cry.

Dude is LAZY.

Anyway, were you to stat Cthulhu as represented in the mythos for d20, he'd basically have a constant HD based save-or-die [based on will]. Depending on how far he is awake, the first hit are the Commoners. Anyone higher level than that can resist the effects until he's fully awakened, in which case they're essentially taking the full force of unreality in the face. Keeping the save DC conservative, I'd put it at only around 30, so you'll probably be able to hit him.

There's also the fact that most elder beings in the first place are not affected by mundane weaponry. A level 20 party should have no problem overcoming this, assuming we translate that as DR[X]/+5. He'd be less of a threat than he would be to regular people, but still a very viable threat. I'm fairly certain majority of a wizard's save-or-die options won't work, since despite being a horrifying abomination, he's technically native to the plane he sleeps in - majority of the elder beings are. I'd say the best bet the casters have is smacking him with Orbs, overriding his SR.

Cthulhu would be able to cast certain Divine spells at-will, for example presumably any spell that would allow him to call his spawn.

Then there's also the fact that he can and does fly, and has some pretty nasty properties for his melee. In Call of Cthulhu his melee attack has a 100% hit chance, which means that it hits no matter what. The effect of this attack, if I remember correctly, is that 1d4 [PCs] per round are scooped up in his flabby claws to die hideously. I don't know if we'd make that a save-or-die [fort] or if we'd simply represent it with Improved Grab and assorted other grappling feats.

If any of the above makes no sense, forgive me. I haven't slept yet.

Tvtyrant

2011-04-02, 03:18 PM

One of the ways I have found effective in creating elder evils is to give them a reverse effect of the Shadow spell line: All spells now have SR and a disbelieve chance against the elder evil. The stronger the god the more % of damage is taken off.

archon_huskie

2011-04-02, 06:36 PM

Woah, dude. Father Dagon is much weaker than Cthulhu in terms of the hierarchy and in terms of personal power.

Hastur, on the other hand, his main power isn't a save-or-die. It's just a die. Mention him thrice and he manifests, completely obliterating you and whatever consciousness you have and turning you into a ten foot puddle of amorphous PC (also he IS the King in Yellow).

Cthulhu alone is more than enough for a fairly optimized 20th level party.

1) I chose to write Dagon, and Hatsur because those were the two I could spell. I did include "all the rest." That's every deep old one.

2) There was a guy on page 2 claiming Cthulhu was a level 15 encounter. (I disagree. Any elder god should be a challenge for a demi-god)

3) you don't have to follow the Mythos exactly.