The mechanical purpose of DR/+1

[Darwin]

Today I again came to ponder on the mechanical functionality of the DR/+1.

Quoted from the SRD:

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

At low level play, this is impossible to overcome, at later levels; trivial. And then there's the middle ground, where only those who spent the wealth offensively upgrading their weapons.

I can only find few good reasons for this type of DR to exist, even less to actually use them in-game (I personally choose to convert it to something more relevant). One is that at certain levels the characters will only possess one magical weapon, and so are forced to use it against these monsters. This is hardly an inconvenience though, as that one magical weapon will most often be the player's main source of damage. Not much of a reason.

So I'm asking you playground. What sorts of reasons could there be for providing so many monsters with this sort of damage reduction?

[Z3ro]

Um, there are other forms of DR. That's just the most basic one; a challenge at very low levels, trivial at anything above about 4. But then you start seeing more interesting forms of DR, such as silver, cold iron, or good, or combinations of those.

[Chess435]

My guess is that so the DM has a valid response to the question: "Why don't you just round up a bunch of your friends and kill it?"

[Tavar]

Um, there are other forms of DR. That's just the most basic one; a challenge at very low levels, trivial at anything above about 4. But then you start seeing more interesting forms of DR, such as silver, cold iron, or good, or combinations of those.

Right, but why have DR/Magic? You could just use other types of DR and it wouldn't make that much of a difference. That's the question the OP was asking.

[Khatoblepas]

Holdover from AD&D. In AD&D, some monsters were immune to nonmagical weapons altogether. In 3e, they changed the immunity to a reduction. It's still the same thing as before: Sometimes there are monsters that cannot be hurt by mundane weapons. It's like the Spell Resistance of fighters.

I don't know why creatures have it, other than to make them more threatening to unsuspecting low level parties who are scrabbling for some way to fight back. It was very CoCesque way back when (In CoC there are monsters who are immune to nonmagical weapons!) and throwing a monster at the party they couldn't hurt normally was just par for the course.

[Draz74]

It's a stupid mechanic, but I have to give it credit for one thing: It matches a lot of mythological stories where only The Big MacGuffin Weapon could hurt X Monster.

I think that's how magic-weapon-requirements rules got started.

[Eldan]

It serves an ecological function, instead of a purely combat-mechanical one, and is thus utterly essential to the game world, in my opinion.

Really, some creatures should only laugh with utter contempt at mobs of pitchfork-wielding peasants. That's why they are still alive.

[DaTedinator]

It also gives a legitimate reason as to why NPCs need PCs to help them at lower levels. Depending on the size of the town/city the PCs are visiting, there are probably city watchmen, or hunters, or something who's either a higher level than, or at least on par with the PCs. In those situations, the main thing PCs have over NPCs is specialized resources - and often, magic weapons.

At least, that's how I always saw it.

EDIT: Sorta-ninja'd.

[Z3ro]

Right, but why have DR/Magic? You could just use other types of DR and it wouldn't make that much of a difference. That's the question the OP was asking.

And if you used those other types, then someone would have a problem with them. DR/magic is supposed to be easy to get around.

[Darwin]

And if you used those other types, then someone would have a problem with them. DR/magic is supposed to be easy to get around.

Thing is, DR/magic isn't easy to get around at all. At 1st-2nd level it's impossible (following normal wealth guidelines) to bypass unless you have a caster ready to cast magic weapon (which at level 1, is a rare sight, at least in my campaigns and those I've participated in). It is however automatic, as soon as you reach a level where you can afford such a weapon.

I can certainly get behind the fluff aspects of DR/magic. That it's supposed to seperate the commoners from the heroes. But that is, as Eldan put it, and ecological effect, not a mechanical one. I made sure to formulate the thread's title to include "mechanical" which is what I'm looking for, although I welcome any other sort of answers and ideas. :smallsmile:

[Devant]

Considering the rules where built under a generic prespective, it should be noted that a +1 weapon is not easily obtainable in any setting and certainly not by any Master.

Personally I've been running "underdog" adventures pretty much after the first few years of hack & slash. A good old example is the Darksun setting, where obtaining iron (!), let alone magical items, is a quest worthy objective.

Basically the rules are felxible enough to permit the focus of the adventure to be cast at any level. It is commonly understood that the "cheesy" parts are at levels 15+, and the epic rules put no upper limit. But it is very feasible to play an adventure where goblins and kobolds pose a real threat, and +1 weapons have an artifact-like status. Any creature with DR/Magic is practically the stuff of nightmares. In such a setting, all the DR/Material and DR/Magic actually become relevant.

Another interesting point (besides the very important one posed above by DaTedinator about the specialization of adventurers as a good reason to be summoned by communities), is the relevance of such DRs in massive combat. Maybe a single creature with DR/+1 is not exactly a threat for a typical adventuring party, but in adventures where war is actually rolled, such miniscule details make up for extreme advantages.

Moreover some visual effects are actually interesting and ambient relevant. DR is explained either as "instant regeneration" (Like most outsiders), as "impenetrable" (Like dragons), and as "passes through harmlessly" (usually asociated with deities). So, although a creature with DR 30/+1 is not exactly imprevious to the fresh-out-of-the-store +1 longsword of the fighter, jumping from a cliff 100 feet high, is a tactical option, that the party probably does not have.

As a final note, I think that the rules are made with very different playing groups in mind. Some rules are relevant to some, and irrelevant to others. In a typical hack & slash adventure, the DR/+1 is just an ignorable statistic. But it can also be a defining factor, in the proper adventure. :)

[The_Jackal]

Just one more in a litany of holdovers from basic D&D.

Typed damage resistances are 'bad'™. Well, that's not fair, but they're a bit of mechanical sugar that should be used very rarely, and I find that D20 tends to lean on it a lot, which is where you get the 'Golf Bag of Weapons' syndrome.

[Z3ro]

Thing is, DR/magic isn't easy to get around at all. At 1st-2nd level it's impossible (following normal wealth guidelines) to bypass unless you have a caster ready to cast magic weapon (which at level 1, is a rare sight, at least in my campaigns and those I've participated in). It is however automatic, as soon as you reach a level where you can afford such a weapon.

I can certainly get behind the fluff aspects of DR/magic. That it's supposed to seperate the commoners from the heroes. But that is, as Eldan put it, and ecological effect, not a mechanical one. I made sure to formulate the thread's title to include "mechanical" which is what I'm looking for, although I welcome any other sort of answers and ideas. :smallsmile:

I already gave a mechanical explanation; it's to challenge low-level parties to think outside the box. Maybe you don't prepare magic weapon, but you would, if you face DR/magic on a regular basis. Or maybe you have to prepare some other sort of attack (like alchemist fire) to defeat the encounters.

[mikau013]

I believe DR/+1 no longer exists in 3.5.

But if the dr is low, it just means that the pcs will do less dmg to it, so nothing wrong with that.
If the DR is high the pcs should either be able to overcome it, or run and prepare for it.

Encounters aren't always supposed to be fair :smallbiggrin:

[Tehnar]

I don't see it as a poor mechanic at all.

It gives monsters a extra defense and rewards players who are creative or think to prepare.

Its not so large that it makes a monster immune to attacks, but it can be a major hinderance.

Besides Oil of Magic weapon is 50g, so unless you are starting at level 1, your character ought to be prepared.

[Eldan]

You can still kill something with DR/magic with other means. You can drown them, suffocate them, starve them, burn them, get them hit by lightning...

So, tie them to a rock and throw them in the ocean, bury them alive, nail them to a wall, light them on fire, tie them to a copper stick on a mountaintop...

[ken-do-nim]

Did you see the movie Predator? Arnie's character realizes that he can't effectively shoot or punch the Predator, so he lays a trap with a very heavy weight and crushes its skull.

[DeltaEmil]

The Predator had total concealment, not DR, which would have only made it more difficult for the Arnie-nator. :smalltongue:

[dspeyer]

It nerfs armies, letting adventurers shine. Without it, a thousand level 1 archers will dominate most encounters.

[Amnestic]

I recall reading an article in one of the Dragon Magazines (can't remember which issue) about this. The devs saw DR/+X as a line of "You must be this tall to fight this monster", which they didn't like, so they switched it around for the currently used DR XY/[Something]. A DR 10/Bludgeoning can still be broken through with a slashing weapon, DR/+1? Not unless you happen to have a magic weapon on hand.

[faceroll]

I preferred 3.0's DR/+X, and in fact, still use it. I basically ret-con every DR5/magic as a +1. So DR 20/magic becomes DR20/+4.

That puts a higher value on not getting goofy flaming shocking yodeling ninja kicking swords or whatever.

[DeltaEmil]

The best thing would be to give the monster a lot more hit points, and make them vulnerable to the specific materials of the weapons, instead of the golf-carting effect that is imposed by the different DR types needed. And yet, it's still thematically a little bit better to have specific weapons be more effective than one +5 to rule them all.

[tonberrian]

The purpose of Dr/Magic is to provide a simple baseline for DR - its most easily overcome version. It also helps when mixing and matching various DR types - DR/Magic and Cold Iron is a very good DR type, for example, much better than DR/Cold Iron or DR/Magic.

[Mastikator]

I kind of like that mechanic actually, it makes it more obvious that damage reduction/magic and magic comes in tires. I think it adds to the immersion of the game.