Advice for a newbie Cleric? 3.5

[Turok117]

Hey everyone, hope this is in the right area.

I'm playing a 3.5 game with some mates as a human cleric (we're all level 5). I am aiming for the Radiant Servant of Pelor class (my DM has OK'd this) but I was wondering if there are any 'white elephants' I have to look out for in terms of useless feats/spells/whatever.

My feats are Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Heavy Mace), and Extra Turning.

I am the only real melee character in my party apart from the ranger's wolf and the rogue, so it falls to me to bring the pain and outlast the foes in close combat.

At level 6 I'm probably going to take Leadership for a fighter cohort.

Also, are there any two-handed maces? I want to do more damage than 1d8 (also I aim to have an animated shield later, so AC won't be a problem), but since the mace is Pelor's favourite weapon I didn't really want to give it up.

Domains are Sun and Strength.

Cheers!

[Gavinfoxx]

You've already spent a feat in a trap, the Weapon Focus, and indeed, focusing in Heavy Mace! Also Strength domain kinda sucks.

The best thing to do is read the Cleric Handbook.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

[Turok117]

You've already spent a feat in a trap, the Weapon Focus, and indeed, focusing in Heavy Mace! Also Strength domain kinda sucks.

The best thing to do is read the Cleric Handbook.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

Thanks, I have seen that, but the handbook tells me to go for DMM which, IMO, would make me even more OP :P

Also my DM isn't too happy with me taking that feat. He said feats from CD were OK though.

[Amiria]

Weapon Focus feat isn't really worth it, not even if you can retrain it for some 2-handed weapon. Alas, the Greatclub and other 2-handed bludgeoning non-core weapons like the Maul, Warmace and Goliath Greathammer are martial or even exotic weapons and would cost you another feat. Luckily RSoP gets proficiency with all martial weapons.1

Since you want to get a cohort, I guess you have decent Charisma. Along with Extra Turning you'll have enough turning attempts to power some divine feat. I recommend Divine Spell Power (Complete Warrior). With that feat you boost you caster level for spells by up to +4.

1 = which lets me play a Cloistered Cleric / Radiant Servant of Pelor who uses a Longbow with Zen Archery. :smallsmile:

[Gavinfoxx]

Thanks, I have seen that, but the handbook tells me to go for DMM which, IMO, would make me even more OP :P

Also my DM isn't too happy with me taking that feat. He said feats from CD were OK though.

Well you don't HAVE to go for the most overpowered stuff in the handbook. Just choose stuff in the 'blue'. I mean trading Strength domain for Strength Devotion, for example. Or getting some feat OTHER than weapon focus that's useful.

[Tvtyrant]

Seriously, at the very least get Extend so that you can self buff yourself before combat starts.

[Amiria]

A Lesser Rod of Extend should suffice, or two if you really need more. They aren't that expensive.

At 5th level, RSoP gets a bonus domain. Glory makes you even better against undead, but Purification has Recitation as a 3rd ! level domain spell (normally a 4th level spell). So once per day a Lesser Rod of Extend can modify that too, get a Pearl of Power III for 2/day.

[Aergoth]

The Warmace (Complete Warrior) is a two handed that shares focus with Heavy Mace, but you take a -1 to AC. Dire pick is a similar weapon, same book. Around 155 is where you want to look.

Magic weapon and magic stone are both 1st level spells you'll want to look into.

Divine favour and Entropic shield both seem practical as well. If you can get war as a domain, you'd be better off than strength

You'll want to look into anything that makes your squishies less squishy, and backs up your hitters at this point.

[Telonius]

Agreed, Weapon Focus is rubbish.

Strength isn't that great, but is probably the best of a bunch of bad options. (The other main Pelor domains are Good and Healing. There are others as well, but I think those get into fairly obscure sources).

For two-handed maces, there is the Warmace from Complete Warrior. It's technically hand-and-a-half like the Bastard Sword, but you can use it two-handed. Trouble is, it's a Martial weapon, so your Cleric would need a feat to use it without penalty.

Don't get too bogged down about the weapon efficiency though. As long as it's a 2h weapon, you'll be fine. A Spear or even a Quarterstaff is nothing to sneer at. The damage difference (3.5 less than a Greatsword) is going to be trivial at higher levels. In order to get the bigger weapons, any way you slice it, you're going to either need to waste feats or drop caster levels. It's just not worth it.

[Tvtyrant]

The thing is that strength damage passes the weapons damage fairly early on, and so you want a two hander for the 1.5 str dmg, not for the two handers actual damage increase.

[Turok117]

Thanks for all of the replies, everyone!

I'm liking the sound of this Warmace, I may get it once I take a level in Radiant Servant (since I get martial proficiency then).

So, you all pretty much seem to think that metamagic feats are the bread and butter of melee Clerics? Maybe I'll have a look at retraining, or plan for future feats :)

Thanks again!

[Toliudar]

If you want a slightly less overpowered way to use Divine Metamagic, Quicken works all right too. It allows you to get a buff or two into the mix quickly, without losing too much time in battle.

A lot depends on the other builds in the group. If you're not the only melee-focused character, finding a way to build your cleric that keeps your power in combat roughly on par with theirs will make for a friendlier group.

Before deciding on a cohort, see how the group functions. Leadership is in many ways the most broken feat in the game. I've rarely found it increases the fun of play. If there's a character reason for the cohort - he's your baby brother, he's a walking plot hook that the DM is working with you to use, etc - then great. Otherwise, I'd look at extend or quicken spell at level 6.

[Turok117]

Ok, here's what I'me looking at right now:

Level 6 feat: Divine Vigour
Level 7 class:Radiant Servant of Pelor (which gives me martial proficiency, then get Warmace. Maybe retrain my weapon focus into Warmace focus as well).

Just a quick question, between where I am now (5th level) and when I get the Warmace (7th level) will I get enough dosh to trade my +1 heavy mace for a +1 warmace and to upgrade my +1 heavy steel shield into an animated one?

Is there anywhere (books) I can find out if I will have enough?

[Amiria]

Wealth by Level is on p. 135 of the DMG.

Selling the heavy mace and getting the other stuff (enchanted) means that you have to pay a bit more than 9.000 gp; which should attainable over those 2 levels by the WBL guidelines.

[Dornath]

I'd just like to point out that by not taking the Healing Domain, you're not using one of the RSoP's greatest class features: The Empowering, Maximizing and then Empowered Maximizing domain healing....

Unless your DM has allowed you to cast all healing spells like that?

Also, being a melee fighter with just a d6 hit dice might be rough. Look into some Con boosting items apart from an Amulet of Health if you want to have a Periapt of Wisdom on you.

[Turok117]

Wealth by Level is on p. 135 of the DMG.

Selling the heavy mace and getting the other stuff (enchanted) means that you have to pay a bit more than 9.000 gp; which should attainable over those 2 levels by the WBL guidelines.

Ah, good good :)


I'd just like to point out that by not taking the Healing Domain, you're not using one of the RSoP's greatest class features: The Empowering, Maximizing and then Empowered Maximizing domain healing....

Unless your DM has allowed you to cast all healing spells like that?

Also, being a melee fighter with just a d6 hit dice might be rough. Look into some Con boosting items apart from an Amulet of Health if you want to have a Periapt of Wisdom on you.

My Con is my second highest score (14) so whilst an amulet of health may be useful, it's not a massive problem for the meanwhile (I have about twice the health of the next-toughest character) - where does the periapt of wisdom go?

I guess that whilst I may be missing out on the healing domain boost, I think it may be something I can use to persuade my DM to let me take the class now since he's expressing doubts. If it appears weaker on paper (by me not benefitting from half of the abilities it grants) then he's more likely to let me keep what I want from the class - full spellcasting progression and martial weapon proficiency - the other stuff is largely unnecessary since I don't know how many undead we're going to be fighting. The DM seems more keen to pit us against demons and devils.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The alternate is to take the Healing Domain, then go Spontaneous Domain variant where, instead of spontaneously casting Cure spells, you spontaneously cast from a given domain. Then pick the Healing domain. You still get all the lower end Cure spells, but it also includes Heal!

Well, that and since all your healing will be done from your domain, it all is maximized/empowered/both.

There was a feat... I think it was in PhB II, but I could be mistaken... which let you set up a something between you and the other players, and let you heal from 30'. That can be handy if you can't get to someone because you're playing Tank, and can't move without getting AoO'd to death.

Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments are both spells you will want, as it will save you an extreme expense by not needing to buy +x gear. Once you get 4th level spells, make sure to have a Death Ward on list in case someone starts tossing around negative levels or other unpleasantness.

[only1doug]

Probably worth considering the healing reserve feat as well, I don't remember the specifics but effectively as long as you hold a 2nd level or higher cure spell in reserve (i.e. prepared but not cast) you can heal small amounts each round until everyone is at 1/2 health.

Much better than a 5% increase in hit chance.

[navar100]

I disagree Weapon Focus is rubbish. If you're not intending to engage in actual fighting often then sure it's not helping, but if you will do a lot pummeling then it's ok. Every +1 matters. It would not be my high priority for a cleric, but I do consider it if I will be playing a heavy-warrior cleric.

I prefer the morningstar over the mace for the piercing damage in addition to bludgeoning "just in case". It fits thematically since it looks like a radiant star. Put a Continual Light spell on it to make it more like the sun.

[gallagher]

dont forget the glory domain! pelor has access to it IIRC, and you get Holy Sword from that one. it ignores whatever bonus is already on your weapon, but turns it into a +5 holy weapon with a constant magic circle against evil

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I disagree Weapon Focus is rubbish. If you're not intending to engage in actual fighting often then sure it's not helping, but if you will do a lot pummeling then it's ok. Every +1 matters. It would not be my high priority for a cleric, but I do consider it if I will be playing a heavy-warrior cleric.

I prefer the morningstar over the mace for the piercing damage in addition to bludgeoning "just in case". It fits thematically since it looks like a radiant star. Put a Continual Light spell on it to make it more like the sun.

No, a +1 is not worth a feat. Ever. No, not even then. With that same feat, he could do *FAR* nastier things.

[Turok117]

There a few reasons I chose the feats I have.

1) It is the first time my DM has run a group game, so I don't want to push him, because:
2) He has said he would prefer to keep things as core as possible, I am already asking a lot by wanting RSoP and a Warmace.
3) I don't want to break the game.
4) Being skilled with the mace is part of my characters fluff, but I didn't want to take a level in fighter.

[navar100]

No, a +1 is not worth a feat. Ever. No, not even then. With that same feat, he could do *FAR* nastier things.

Not worth it to you, maybe, but I have experienced and witnessed "Missed by 1" or "Just made it because of that +1" way too many times to dismiss it. I still remember a particular combat where my cleric casting Bless gave us the win, including the fighter making a save against Cause Fear.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not worth it to you, maybe, but I have experienced and witnessed "Missed by 1" or "Just made it because of that +1" way too many times to dismiss it. I still remember a particular combat where my cleric casting Bless gave us the win, including the fighter making a save against Cause Fear.

I'd rather pick up something like DMM Chain Spell for Reach DMM Chain Death Ward and be flat immune to that banshee's wail, personally...

[navar100]

I'd rather pick up something like DMM Chain Spell for Reach DMM Chain Death Ward and be flat immune to that banshee's wail, personally...

Oh I've played the Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell cleric and that was way back when Persistent Spell was only +4 levels, but sometimes I'd like to pick something else besides Divine Metamagic for the umpteenth time. If I were to pick Weapon Focus I'd do so at level 3 or have War Domain. It can also matter what source materials are available which could mean it's taken at level 6 if I'm really, really in the mood, i.e. I have proven to myself over the last 6 levels that I want to have a lot of clobbering time. At low level I don't have to worry about Wail of the Banshee. By the time I'm at the level I need to worry about it, I've long since been able to deal with it and am still happy with the +1 from Weapon Focus because every +1 still matters to hit the high ACs.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh I've played the Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell cleric and that was way back when Persistent Spell was only +4 levels, but sometimes I'd like to pick something else besides Divine Metamagic for the umpteenth time. If I were to pick Weapon Focus I'd do so at level 3 or have War Domain. It can also matter what source materials are available which could mean it's taken at level 6 if I'm really, really in the mood, i.e. I have proven to myself over the last 6 levels that I want to have a lot of clobbering time. At low level I don't have to worry about Wail of the Banshee. By the time I'm at the level I need to worry about it, I've long since been able to deal with it and am still happy with the +1 from Weapon Focus because every +1 still matters to hit the high ACs.

I used Chain and not Persist for a reason... if we're going Persist, then DMM Persist Divine Power is strictly better, giving a scaling bonus that also grants iterative attacks.

I was talking about, with a single spell, making the entire party immune to the BBEG at hand, and trivializing the encounter entirely.

Even if you want to go Core, the following are all far more powerful:

Silent Spell: Because Silence can be centered on yourself to give opponent casters a *very* rude surprise when you close with them, at no save

Reach Spell: Because healing someone at 30' is sometimes a very good thing.

Quicken Spell: Because breaking the action economy is fun.