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Kaun
2011-03-14, 05:24 PM
Quick question for all those in the know.

It has been a long while since i have run any Shadowrun and i am thinking of running some small sessions just to get my hand in before contemplating anything larger.

My players will all be new to the game so i am thinking of using the pre made chr's out of the orriginal 4e book so we don't waste time on chr gen before they have any idea about how the game actually works.

I know those premade chrs are under optimised but how are they for balance?

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-14, 05:35 PM
Well, I think a couple of them actually did their numbers wrong, and come a couple of points above or below 400...

Tehnar
2011-03-14, 05:39 PM
I haven't studied the premades in a whole lot of detail, but here are my 0.02 nuyen.

The hacker is actually pretty well made, I would make only minimal adjustments to him. The drone rigger is also not bad. The gun adept is on the poor scale of things.

I think you can run them just fine, and then later let your players make their own characters or modify the existing ones.

Kaun
2011-03-14, 05:51 PM
Yeah the plan is to let them get a feel for the game and the system so when they actually sit down to generate a chr of their own they understand the building blocks with which they are playing.

I am more trying to avoid uterly flawed chrs that strugle to function in their chosen specialities.

Slade
2011-03-17, 03:13 PM
Well, I think a couple of them actually did their numbers wrong, and come a couple of points above or below 400...

Yep. Their numbers are off, +/- 20 points on some of them. However, for a "tutorial" one shot session of SR, they work fine.

Character creation in SR4 is easy peasy, once you figure out where everything is and what it means. As for the actual pre-made characters, they are under optimized for their specialty, but they can get the message across to the players (don't be stupid, never get into a running gun battle, always plan out your missions accordingly, never assume your the biggest one on the block, and the countless others they have) so that they can make their over optimized characters later.

A word of advice from one SR4 GM to another:
Never let the caster be a possession mage or a "home brew" tradition.
Ever. EVER. EVER! EVER!!!
The rest of the traditions from Street Magic are OK, but for newbies, best to stick to Shamans and Hermetics. Unlike Technomancers (see below) these guys are a must.

As for hackers & riggers, they are pretty cool guys, but to really get into the hacker/ rigger, you must understand modern, real world networking concepts. The game uses them, then runs with it to its logical cyberpunk awesomeness. (A word on Technomancers: don't, until you have an experienced group. It will save you headache in the long run, and unlike Mages and Adepts, everything a Technomancer can do, a Hacker can do better at start up, with the exceptions of Sprites.)

As for the fighty types, extra IP's are KEY. You must have them. There is no way around it. 3 is an absolute minimum, 4 is ideal, and also the most you can get. (Hackers can get around this, but I am not telling you how. No one else tell him either).

Your choice on hurty skills is open to debate, but one should almost always favor heavy pistols as your work horse weapon. Real flexible and cheap, with a ton of customizations available in Arsenal. Close Combat and Rifles are good solid secondary choices in hurty skills. Also, everyone should have at least 2 levels worth of pistols skill, if for nothing else, as back up.

And now, the Face character. Played wrong, he is the weakest link of the party. He cannot shoot his way out of a situation like the Street Sams, he cannot whip up a spirit to whisk him out of danger like the Mages. He cannot hack like the hacker or Technomancer, nor can he hop in a drone to shoot his way out. No, the Face must be smarter then that.

Played right, this is one of the best character types in SR4. He can talk his way into the most secured areas, he gets the gang bangers to forget he was there, Lonestar thinks he is a pretty cool guy, and later, the Exec VP thinks this guy works for him somewhere on his staff. No, the magic of the Face requires no bullets, no spells, no gizmos, no 'resonance'. He simply Is. When played correctly. As mentioned before, when played wrong, he is the weakest character. Another archetype for an experienced player.

Hope this helps down the road.

Seerow
2011-03-18, 12:17 AM
As for the fighty types, extra IP's are KEY. You must have them. There is no way around it. 3 is an absolute minimum, 4 is ideal, and also the most you can get. (Hackers can get around this, but I am not telling you how. No one else tell him either).


I'm just going to go out ahead and say it: It's not -just- the fighty types who this is nearly required for. At some point you will enter combat, and characters without extra initiative passes just get left behind, and spend half the session bored doing nothing. We made this mistake with a face and a mage once, where they'd take their one turn, and by the time everyone else finished their 2-3, everything was done and overwith.

I'm of course assuming that your definition of fighty-type is someone geared wholly for combat, with little skill outside of that, and working on the assumption that all characters intend to contribute to combat meaningfully regardless of their actual specialization.

Luckily for a mage at least, this lacking can be remedied pretty easily/cheaply via a sustaining focus.

Slade
2011-03-18, 03:51 AM
There is a school of Shadowrun thought the believes that if a shot is fired, the run is lost. I'm not going to talk about that school of thought in this post, since we have assumed that the fight is on and we are past the 'words' part.


We made this mistake with a face and a mage once, where they'd take their one turn, and by the time everyone else finished their 2-3, everything was done and over with.

Wait... mages can't contribute meaningfully to combat? :smallsigh:
Mages can't contribute meaningfully to combat?! :smallmad:
Mages can't contribute meaningfully to combat?!?! :smallfurious:
Mages can't contribute meaningfully to combat?!?!:furious:

Why are they not SUMMONING SPIRITS?! If your worried about your mages being board in combat... let them run the 2 - 3 IP owning spirits! I can't think of anything more terrifying than seeing a spirit of fire bearing down on you, while the earth spirit rips your buddies in half. Never mind the mana only spells like Manabolt and Manaball.

Oh, yes, spirits can contribute VERY much to combat. Spirits can and should be summoned in the middle of combat, if they are needed. And they are ALWAYS needed.

As for the Face, yes, he will be board; combat is not his thing. If you want the PLAYER of the face to do something, have him run a drone or a spirit. Operate a vehicle or drone himself (no one said he can't Rig). There are plenty of options out there for non-combat types to put a hurtin' on people.


I'm of course assuming that your definition of fighty-type is someone geared wholly for combat, with little skill outside of that, and working on the assumption that all characters intend to contribute to combat meaningfully regardless of their actual specialization.

I was. My "IPs are god" statement did apply to fighty types, because IPs are their bread and butter; it pays their bills. The mage, face, hacker, and rigger do not shine in the field of combat without outside assistance of some kind (drones, spirits, sprites, etc...).


Luckily for a mage at least, this lacking can be remedied pretty easily/cheaply via a sustaining focus.

Indeed. And the focus for spirits, if one exists, will also help here too. Fun fact: a mage can get the highest initiative score in the core book. With street magic, adepts once again take the crown. (No, I don't recall with what off the top of my head).

Seerow
2011-03-18, 10:54 AM
There is a school of Shadowrun thought the believes that if a shot is fired, the run is lost. I'm not going to talk about that school of thought in this post, since we have assumed that the fight is on and we are past the 'words' part.


Oh I'm pretty much familiar with this. Our current team includes a pretty well optimized face, a B&E specialist, and a mage. We make it through many sessions/missions without combat, or at least the gunslinging type (a slit throat or a solid knockout punch still has its place).



Wait... mages can't contribute meaningfully to combat?
Mages can't contribute meaningfully to combat?!
Mages can't contribute meaningfully to combat?!?!

Why are they not SUMMONING SPIRITS?! If your worried about your mages being board in combat... let them run the 2 - 3 IP owning spirits! I can't think of anything more terrifying than seeing a spirit of fire bearing down on you, while the earth spirit rips your buddies in half. Never mind the mana only spells like Manabolt and Manaball.

Oh, yes, spirits can contribute VERY much to combat. Spirits can and should be summoned in the middle of combat, if they are needed. And they are ALWAYS needed.


Eh, we actually had a dedicated summoner at one point, who decided her character was retiring and rolled a new one. I think the biggest problem with that was the GM insisted that the spirits were NPCs, that followed directions, not under her direct control. So he controlled them. The result was the summoner would be like "Hey guys I'm summoning my spirit, now I got nothing to do for the next 30 minutes, so I'm gonna go sit in a corner and play WoW on my laptop while you guys have fun"

Probably wouldn't be so bad in a situation where the mage was doing other things as well, but in a situation where that was all the mage was doing, left a pretty bad taste in our mouths. Since then we've pretty much had aspected magicians/mystic adepts.


As for the Face, yes, he will be board; combat is not his thing. If you want the PLAYER of the face to do something, have him run a drone or a spirit. Operate a vehicle or drone himself (no one said he can't Rig). There are plenty of options out there for non-combat types to put a hurtin' on people.


Doesn't take much to give the face some pistol skill, and 1 extra initiative pass. Our current face started out with some pistol skill, and is currently training exotic proficiency laser pistol, because he thought it would be something cool and unique for his character to have.

That makes him at least as fast as your average NPC, and able to contribute something, if not the frightening numbers that a combat monkey can put out with a high velocity barrel rifle or machine gun.

Slade
2011-03-18, 02:15 PM
Eh, we actually had a dedicated summoner at one point, who decided her character was retiring and rolled a new one. I think the biggest problem with that was the GM insisted that the spirits were NPCs, that followed directions, not under her direct control. So he controlled them. The result was the summoner would be like "Hey guys I'm summoning my spirit, now I got nothing to do for the next 30 minutes, so I'm gonna go sit in a corner and play WoW on my laptop while you guys have fun"

Probably wouldn't be so bad in a situation where the mage was doing other things as well, but in a situation where that was all the mage was doing, left a pretty bad taste in our mouths.

That was a horrible call by the GM. He made more work for himself while alienating a player at the same time. That ruling from him is not in his best interest.



Doesn't take much to give the face some pistol skill, and 1 extra initiative pass. That makes him at least as fast as your average NPC, and able to contribute something, if not the frightening numbers that a combat monkey can put out with a high velocity barrel rifle or machine gun.

Indeed. My face didn't have an extra IP and his pistols skill was only around an 8 (2 stats, 2 skill, then the usual bennys like Smartlink and specialty) until well into playing (around the 60 karma mark IIRC), and it was one of the most fun I ever had playing a character. Aside from a few ghouls and a great form spirit, I never fired a shot in anger. Later, I was able to gain an agility of 6 and skillsofts of 4 for my heavy pistols, which gave me a base of 14 and bioware for an extra IP. So, now I have 2 IP's and 14 dice in my shooty pool. Not bad for someone dedicated to the art of conversation.

Kaun
2011-03-20, 05:45 PM
Sorry about the slow response i have been afk for a few days.

Thanks for the responses guys!


Yep. Their numbers are off, +/- 20 points on some of them. However, for a "tutorial" one shot session of SR, they work fine.

This is bassicly what i want to use the premades for. My players generally hate premade chr's but at least they will have a few to choose from.

All so to my knowledge none of them have played any shadowrun before nor are they to savy on the fluff of the game. They are all mostly DnD players and i want to teach them the diffrences between the mentalities of the two games with out wasting time walking them all through chr gen.


As for the actual pre-made characters, they are under optimized for their specialty, but they can get the message across to the players (don't be stupid, never get into a running gun battle, always plan out your missions accordingly, never assume your the biggest one on the block, and the countless others they have) so that they can make their over optimized characters later.

A couple of them just went through a DH game i ran were hopefully they learnt some of these lessons. (it did end up with the Psyker dieing to an infected chest wound, the Adept and the Arbitrator being executed for misuse of Imperial armed forces, the gaurdsmen being cut down by not so friendly friendly fire and the scum playing possum after being set on fire only to be assasinated later.)


The rest of the traditions from Street Magic are OK, but for newbies, best to stick to Shamans and Hermetics. Unlike Technomancers (see below) these guys are a must.

Ok just to clarify; magic user = must, Technomancer = not needed?



As for hackers & riggers, they are pretty cool guys, but to really get into the hacker/ rigger, you must understand modern, real world networking concepts.

Yeah im good on this one, my problem will be finding a player to embrace the hacker role.


(A word on Technomancers: don't, until you have an experienced group. It will save you headache in the long run, and unlike Mages and Adepts, everything a Technomancer can do, a Hacker can do better at start up, with the exceptions of Sprites.)

Can i twist your arm into expanding on this? Not the hackers are better part but more the hedaches of Technomancers.

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-20, 06:02 PM
Can i twist your arm into expanding on this? Not the hackers are better part but more the hedaches of Technomancers.I'll go ahead and clarify for him: Technomancers, for the most part, do the exact same things hackers do, but in a different, and altogether-more-complex way. And the hacker is a tad better at it at the start, but the Technomancer theoretically has no cap on the stuff he can pull off, where eventually the hacker will hit a glass ceiling.

Kaun
2011-03-20, 06:19 PM
I'll go ahead and clarify for him: Technomancers, for the most part, do the exact same things hackers do, but in a different, and altogether-more-complex way. And the hacker is a tad better at it at the start, but the Technomancer theoretically has no cap on the stuff he can pull off, where eventually the hacker will hit a glass ceiling.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooo

If i have got my head around this right.

Avoid Technomancers to begin with because Hackers can do the same thing using easier mechanics. Then Technomancers can be introduced later if desiered when players and GM's have a better grasp on the rule system?

Seerow
2011-03-20, 06:24 PM
I'll go ahead and clarify for him: Technomancers, for the most part, do the exact same things hackers do, but in a different, and altogether-more-complex way. And the hacker is a tad better at it at the start, but the Technomancer theoretically has no cap on the stuff he can pull off, where eventually the hacker will hit a glass ceiling.

On a related note, to my understanding the new WAR! Supplement introduced higher rating programs (up to 8 I believe) which should increase the time before the Technomancer breaks past that glass ceiling that mundane hackers hit.

Having recently been looking at the techno rules, there's two major flaws I see:

1) Technomancers take way too many build points for their stuff. It's 6 build points/12 karma for a rating 6 complex form. The equivalent rating 6 program is 6000 Nuyen, which is just over a single build point worth of money. Sure you need an initial investment in your base commlink's hardware and OS, but even that will cost far less than buying the 6 starting resonance for your Technomancer.

2) Technomancers can't start out able to do everything. You can have a hacker start out with a program for everything, and have more common use programs cranked up to rating 5-6, while leaving more uncommon programs around rating 3 before the price range on them jumps, but still have the versatility of doing everything. There are 24 different complex forms you can invest in as a technomancer, but your max complex forms is Logicx2, meaning barring using the +logic bioware (which is going to hit your resonance and thus your max starting level for your forms), or positive qualities, you're getting at most 12 complex forms at the start, meaning that more than half the stuff out there you will be completely unable to do unless you grab a commlink to do it for you... and really if that's what you have, why not just play a hacker?





That said, most of what technomancers do isn't extremely different from hackers. The big difference is the sprites, which are the technomancer's answer to spirits. Other than that it's simple things like subbing in a stat instead of a firewall and the like.

That said, one thing I have found I don't like about the hacking rules, is if you don't use the optional rule from Unwired, the vast majority of hacking doesn't actually require using your own attributes. This means any half retarded schmuck on the streets can spend a little karma to pick up hacking 1-2, dish out some nuyen on a good commlink and software, and can hack nearly as well as the dedicated hacker.

This setup can actually help a little in situations where you don't want the hacker to be on his own private adventure while everyone else does nothing, just have everyone in the group invest at least a little in it, and let them go along as help/support. But if you do want hackers as a breed apart, consider the optional rule in Unwired where you use Logic instead of the program rating/complex form rating, and then max successes is limited by your program rating (thus making it a closer analogue to how magic works, and makes an effective barrier to keep your average people out of hacking).



Just my thoughts on it.

Science Officer
2011-03-20, 07:08 PM
On Technomancers... probably there was a misunderstanding of the rules, and definitely the character wasn't facing very difficult challenges, but the Technomancer in my game was able to walk through everything with no problem. Just by using "threading". He'd throw a whole pile of dice to boost something with threading, and then throw a larger pile of dice to do the thing.
So I'd definitely ban Technos, over-powered and confusing.

Which leads me to another problem I had with Shadowrun. Over-optimisation. We had an adept that punched things really well, a Technomancer that hacked really well, a rigger that piloted really well, a face that lied really well and a Street Sam that could shoot pretty ok.
When each character was optimised to do something that they threw 12-20+ dice at doing it, it just seemed like "why bother rolling?" They were obviously going to succeed.
So I'd recommend against over-specialisation.

If you want to introduce character creation gently (SR's system can be tricky if they haven't used a point-buy based system before), I'd suggest the Priority system, from the Runner's Companion. Or the PACKS, maybe, in the upcoming Runner's Toolkit.

Slade
2011-03-20, 08:12 PM
I'll go ahead and clarify for him: Technomancers, for the most part, do the exact same things hackers do, but in a different, and altogether-more-complex way. And the hacker is a tad better at it at the start, but the Technomancer theoretically has no cap on the stuff he can pull off, where eventually the hacker will hit a glass ceiling.

What he said.



Ok just to clarify; magic user = must, Technomancer = not needed?


Yup. It's another complication for a training game. Read on:

About Magic and Magic Users:
Yes. Absolutely yes, is a must, get one, don't go check your mail without one, necessary.

Magic can:
Instantly heal someone who is almost dead; (Heal)
Summon gods; (i.e. spirits with Force 7+) (Summon skill)
Make someone with 0 idea what a thing is master it; (Analyze Device)
Kill someone with but a touch; (Death Touch)
Kill someone just by looking at them; (Mana Bolt)
Buff yours or someone else's stats; (Increase Attribute)
Grant extra IP's; (Increase Reflexes)
Turn someone into a pile of snot; (Turn to Goo)

In short, yes, these people are a must.

Just by using "threading". He'd throw a whole pile of dice to boost something with threading, and then throw a larger pile of dice to do the thing.

The big difference is the sprites, which are the technomancer's answer to spirits. Other than that it's simple things like subbing in a stat instead of a firewall and the like.

OK, now you have hit upon the head of what makes a Technomancer handy: Threading and Compiling. Example: the runner team needs to drop in an agent program in order to complete a run.

The hacker spends 6 MONTHS coding, compiling, debugging, testing, and running to see if his agent works. And that is 1 roll.

The technomancer snaps his fingers, and boom agent (called a sprite in this case, they are functionally the same). The team continues on.

The other is what is known as Threading; Mr. Technomancer needs to data bomb this data. He snaps his virtual fingers, and now (with a decent roll) has Data Bomb at rating 4. No money, no karma, no fuss no muss.

However, these can harm or kill a Technomancer out right; they have drain (called Fading) much like a mage. So, if a Technomancer wants to check his email, he might just have his head explode for doing it (this a very extreme example mind you, but a Technomancer CAN take damage for doing this).

Technomancers are VERY susceptible to Black Ice attacks. Unlike a hacker in AR, the Technomancer CANNOT jack out or unplug. In fact, they suffer for NOT being able to access the Matrix (such as a dead zone). The mechanical effects of this are a big TL;DR, but trust me they are harsh.

When you consider all of the above, they are a headache for a new player and game master to deal with. Just say no, and save yourself some Tylenol.

Kaun
2011-03-20, 08:32 PM
what he said

Hmmm very interesting thanks.

Follow up question;

When you run a game how often do your players encounter BlackIC?

Slade
2011-03-20, 09:43 PM
Hmmm very interesting thanks.

Follow up question;

When you run a game how often do your players encounter BlackIC?

Black Ice? All the time. The question is not frequency, its the severity, of the Ice in question.

First lets properly define what Black Ice is:
Black Ice, properly named Black IC for Black level Intrusion Countermeasures, in 4th edition, are agents that have Blackhammer or (if you are lucky) Blackout programs, and the ability to use them as defined by preexisting directions (usually set up by a matrix service operator, under some kind of direction by a corporate entity, based on needs and function of the Matrix system in question).
Such agents also have a selection of other programs such as Attack, Armor, Spoof, etc. that enables them to better function at their tasks, again, as determined by the above entities.
Mechanically, running Black Ice in games is an easy enough matter, the rating of the Agent is the highest level of programs that can be installed on it and its (Agent Rating) + (Program rating) for its dice pool, and they usually have 3 IP's in the Matrix. Easy enough.
================================================== =======
For your public Matrix services, the ad spam services, the public Wi-Fi services, and the like, have the Black Ice running in the background armed with Scan and other sensory programs that hunt down illegal users and if they behave, simply kick the offender off the matrix (think Ban-hammer), block that com code's matrix access, and notify the local police (whomever that may be).
If the offender fights back, that's when it gets nasty. Out comes the claws (in the form of Blackout) and the Attack programs, with the intention of violently kicking out the offender, and if it wins, follows the usual steps outlined above.

In security zone, the process is similar, but much more lethal. The Ice in question, is of far better quality (rating 6, if not higher made custom), loaded up with Blackhammer, and its sole purpose is to kill. Not kick out, not isolate, but to kill the intruding hackers.
And it often works with several of its fellow programs while under the eye of white hat hacker (i.e. one that works for the area in question) that he too will kill at the drop of a hat (or at the word of his bosses). So, it depends on the area, the situation, and the purpose of the Black Ice in question.

Now, with the TL;DR out of the way, Black Ice should be and ever present assassin in the dark waiting to spank a hacker for anything he might be doing wrong. The mere threat of Black Ice keeps the script kiddies and wanna bes at home, but Shadowrunners have to work around that problem.
The easiest solution is to run a legal cheap disposable comlink that is on active broadcast mode and skin-linked to your illegal as all get out comlink that is running on hidden mode and if something untoward happens to your legal link, you can kick it off and reboot it later. In fact having 2 or 3 extra throw away commlinks ready to go is not bad advice.

Remember: NOT having a com-link with an active com code being broad cast is a crime in most civilized areas, with arrest very likely for vagrancy, and while not a capital offense, could be the very end for a Shadowrun.

Now, no doubt some of you reading this are going "that seems a bit over kill". But remember the world you are in: people have been marginalized to the point were only a certain people have any status what so ever. So, anyone breaking the established (read: corporate) laws can be slain without any recourse what so ever. And black ice only costs money.
To answer your question, Black Ice should be EVERYWHERE. Its only the severity of it that changes.

Some first time player advice for anyone regardless of specialty:
1) Always have a cheap throw away commlink to conduct "business" on. Meets, drops, Johnsons, and so on. Commcodes can be switched out like underwear, and it should be, frequently, and often. In fact doing it after a mission is a reasonable rate of doing so.

2) Your real commlink, the one that runs all that juicy cyberware and hacking programs should NEVER have its wireless turned on. EVER. Invest in skinlinking everything you own. Then, once your main commlink is skinlinked, skinlink your main commlink to your throw aways. However, NEVER slave it to your commlink. EVER. Slaving just means "I'm an extension of this device over here", and once they break your slave, they break your system.

3) While we are talking about skinlinking, all your effects should be skinlinked as well, with the wireless shut down or removed if possible. This goes double for cyberware as well. Nothing like hacking your wired reflexes and reaction enhancers, and the hacker shutting down your nervous system. This also goes for your guns, smartlinks, grenades (yes, grenades come in wireless varieties too), vehicles, and the like. This goes double time for the Street Sams and cyberware junkies. Do this at start up, write it on your character sheet, tattoo it to your forehead!

4) Drones- cannot be made wireless, its what lets a rigger do his thing. Here, you have to hope for as high a firewall + system as you can get. Don't forget your leg work part of the mission and find out what kind of anti-rigger tech they have, and plan accordingly. This is also why I made my team hacker code up a firewall 10 ASAP.

5) Mages- Don't think I forgot you guys. Skinlink your stuff- distractions while spellcasting can be deadly. Those awesome shades you have? They can be hacked too- see rules #2 and #3 for this.

6) Technomancers- yes I know I said don't play this, but some one will want to play a Technomancer eventually. Might as well get it said now. Technomancers, there is no reason to NOT own a commlink. Do you want to suffer drain just to access your email? Didn't think so. Therefore, follow all the advice above and get your common use programs and use them normally. It keeps the corps and the cops off your butt and helps to resist drain against common tasks like Analyze, Encrypt, Decrypt, etc. However, this means you need to invest in the corresponding skills to use them.

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-20, 10:30 PM
On a related note, to my understanding the new WAR! Supplement introduced higher rating programs (up to 8 I believe) which should increase the time before the Technomancer breaks past that glass ceiling that mundane hackers hit.Not really. See, even in Unwired, it talked about the possibility of having higher-rated hardware and software (up to 12, in fact), but that such things are both experimental and not commercially available...

So in our game, one of the first things my character did was set aside some time and script up a rating... I think 10... yeah, we'll go with that... a rating 10 Firewall program. Had to burn an Edge to do it, too, but considering the massive intervals for making software (especially compared to making hardware), I considered it a worthwhile investment...

I haven't read WAR!, but if they do make rating 8 stuff commercially available, I suppose that'd keep hackers in the lead for just a little longer, mostly because he now no longer has to spend three months sitting at a chair, watching his code compile...

Seerow
2011-03-20, 10:44 PM
Not really. See, even in Unwired, it talked about the possibility of having higher-rated hardware and software (up to 12, in fact), but that such things are both experimental and not commercially available...

So in our game, one of the first things my character did was set aside some time and script up a rating... I think 10... yeah, we'll go with that... a rating 10 Firewall program. Had to burn an Edge to do it, too, but considering the massive intervals for making software (especially compared to making hardware), I considered it a worthwhile investment...

I haven't read WAR!, but if they do make rating 8 stuff commercially available, I suppose that'd keep hackers in the lead for just a little longer, mostly because he now no longer has to spend three months sitting at a chair, watching his code compile...


Honestly if the compile times for making your own stuff is that horrid, that seems like a problem that probably needs addressing. Especially since in one of the books I distinctly remember reading something like "No self respecting hacker uses other peoples software. Or at least they won't admit to it if they do", which implies hackers are supposed to be writing their own code. I don't know about average games, but in my games we generally have 1-2 weeks between missions, not 3-6 months.


But yeah, I haven't read WAR! yet, I'm just going by what I read on another forum while researching stuff for my rigger a few days ago.

Slade
2011-03-21, 07:50 AM
Not really. See, even in Unwired, it talked about the possibility of having higher-rated hardware and software (up to 12, in fact), but that such things are both experimental and not commercially available...

Yup; yippie on higher rating programs.


So in our game, one of the first things my character did was set aside some time and script up a rating... I think 10... yeah, we'll go with that... a rating 10 Firewall program. Had to burn an Edge to do it, too, but considering the massive intervals for making software (especially compared to making hardware), I considered it a worthwhile investment...

Perhaps one of the best examples of burning an edge in game for non-combat uses that I approved of (not that it was my call, mind you, just an opinion). Go Team Fulcrum! P.S.-- Yes it was 10, I was the one who specifically asked for a Firewall of 10.


I haven't read WAR!, but if they do make rating 8 stuff commercially available, I suppose that would keep hackers in the lead for just a little longer, mostly because he now no longer has to spend three months sitting at a chair, watching his code compile...

'Bout time for some Commercially available software rating 7+.

As for the Technomancer vs. Hacker question, not having to code up rating 7+ programs would indeed keep the Hacker in the lead; now its just a question of karma (and time) vs. money. And money is easy to get compared to Karma.


Honestly if the compile times for making your own stuff is that horrid, that seems like a problem that probably needs addressing. Especially since in one of the books I distinctly remember reading something like "No self respecting hacker uses other peoples software. Or at least they won't admit to it if they do", which implies hackers are supposed to be writing their own code. I don't know about average games, but in my games we generally have 1-2 weeks between missions, not 3-6 months.

Ah, but think about this in real world terms: how often does Microsoft release a new version of Windows OS? Answer 3 years. That is the release cycle of major Windows operating systems. (don't get me started on my view of how Linux is all there is in Shadowrun)

In SR terms, that is 6 checks made from TEAMS of 1000 programmers (this number does NOT include all the beta testers out there) in those 3 years (just for Windows 7 alone). Those programmers with around 4 to 6 dice each, each adding their hits to the lead programmer of a project. By these numbers, that means there are over 4,000 to 6,000 dice being rolled in this project. And the release cycle requires 3 years. (as an aside, Microsoft has around 135,000 employees world wide.)

Now, lets contrast that to the Shadowrunner hacker. He has maybe 15 dice in his pool to code up a program (7 logic, 6 software, +2 spec if it applies, + any cyberware he may have). So now, compare 15 dice to 6,000 dice. 6 months? That's being VERY generous to the shadowrunner. The books do not talk about how much actual code he has to compile to write his personal programs, nor how much beta testing and debugging he has to do. Since it ONLY requires 6 months to code and recompile his own OS, I am guessing that he is just tweeking previously released material and making his own changes.

Anyways, the TL;DR rebuttal to your statement is: "6 months is being very generous for your own OS and Autosofts."

(Note: TheCountAlucard's firewall required 3 month checks. He burned it in one pass to get it over with.)