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Serpentine
2011-03-14, 11:06 PM
I'm having a bit of trouble working out resources - especially primary ones - for my (oh so very overdue :smallsigh:) thesis. There's lots of well-read people here, so I thought I'd ask.

Note before I start: Please don't discuss my topic here. It lands solidly in the "no religion" part of the rules. I'm just after texts etc.

The topic is this: "A comparison between the serpents and dragons in early Judeo-Christian religion and those of contiguous polytheistic* religions."

The religions I'm covering, and need primary sources for, are:

Judeo-Christianity (duh) - the Old Testament, obviously, but also some folklore, apocrypha and archaeological evidence.

Canaanite - Need to track down a translation or two of the Ba'al Cycle/Epic of Ba'al.

Egyptian - Book of the Dead, The Books of Overthrowing Apep, various wall-paintings.

Assyrian-Babylonian - Need a copy of the Enuma Elis. Art, but what else?

Hittite/Hurrian - Mostly need the myth of Illuyanka.

Persian - Maybe.

Sumerian - Particularly sources about Lahmu and Lahamu.

Traditional African - Seriously, I have no idea what a primary source for this would be. Collections of myths? Some archaeology? Guess I particularly need to ask my supervisor about that...

Greek - I'm afraid that part of my problem here is going to be a glut of information, but in the form of passing mentions all over the place. Are there any texts that go into detail about the gods, particularly Hermes, Apollo's snake aspects, Asklepios, Typhon and the various drakaina? I'm sure there are, I just need to find them...

Mesopotamian - In particular Ningishzida, but also Labbu and Istaran. Are there any surviving texts about them, or will I have to rely on art and archaeology?


So. Does anyone know their ancient myth well enough to point me in the direction of some good primary texts? What about archaeological papers and books? For that matter, does anyone know of any secondary sources relating to this topic? I have looked, and will obviously continue to look, but I haven't found much yet...


*Zoroastrianism removed, cuz it'd be a bitch to work in.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2011-03-14, 11:09 PM
What do you feel about novels that cover religion in detail? Traditional African is a bit broad, but for the traditions of the Ibo or Igbo people, Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart is quite good, though I'm not sure exactly how much of the traditions were changed to fit the story, and the presentation will obviously present a much larger bias problem than other sources...

Serpentine
2011-03-14, 11:14 PM
No, nonfiction only. However, if the novel makes a note of its sources, it could still be worth a look.

Maethirion
2011-03-15, 01:32 AM
I haven't read it in a while, and my memory's a little fuzzy, so it may not go into the sort of detail you're looking for, but have you had a look at Hesiod's Theogony for Greek mythology? It's mostly genealogy, but it might have tidbits you can use.

Cyrion
2011-03-16, 12:48 PM
Depends on what you're comparing, but Beowulf could be useful. If you can include Norse, look in the Eddas for information on Jormungandr, the midgard serpent. I'd imagine that looking for stuff on St. George will lead you to some interesting stuff on Judeo-Christian dragons.

Icewalker
2011-03-16, 01:02 PM
I'm not sure where to point you for texts on the subject you're looking for, but I can point you here (http://www.sacred-texts.com/), which is a website which has a huge number of old texts online. So when it comes to actually reading your source once you've found it, it could be handy.

Also, you could check out Jormungandr in Norse mythology. The Prose Edda is up on that site.

Serpentine
2011-03-16, 10:05 PM
I haven't read it in a while, and my memory's a little fuzzy, so it may not go into the sort of detail you're looking for, but have you had a look at Hesiod's Theogony for Greek mythology? It's mostly genealogy, but it might have tidbits you can use.Noted, thanks.

Sorry guys, but I'm looking much more ancient and much more specific than that. Specifically, the religions that had (preferably reasonably direct*) contact with early Judaism during its formative centuries - Greek, Egyptian, Canaanite, Babylonian, Mesopotamian, Arabian, African, Sumerian... All the ones I listed at the start.



*I could look at Hinduism which had contact with Zoroastrianism and Babylonian religion, which would in turn lead me to all those other Far East religions... but that would be excessive.

Lord Seth
2011-03-16, 11:11 PM
The topic is this: "A comparison between the serpents and dragons in early Judeo-Christian religion and those of contiguous polytheistic* religions."

The religions I'm covering, and need primary sources for, are:

Judeo-Christianity (duh) - the Old Testament, obviously, but also some folklore, apocrypha and archaeological evidence.You brought up dragons, so I feel I should point something out: In regards to the Old Testament, modern translations seem to translate the word that the King James Version rendered dragon as either "serpent" or "jackal" due to (I believe) both the evolution of English (dragon means something different than it did 400 years ago) and better understanding of ancient Hebrew.

Now, barely knowing any ancient Hebrew (or modern Hebrew, for that matter), I can't say much about which way to translate it is more accurate, but if you planned to bring them up in regards to dragons rather than serpents, you'll definitely need to do some research of lexicons and the like to support that claim in your dissertation. It's possible you already knew everything I just said, but I felt I should point it out in case.

Serpentine
2011-03-16, 11:32 PM
Yes, the dragon/jackal thing is certainly something I need to look into. In particular, where it has in more recent times often been translated as jackal it is also connected to one "night bird", "daughter of owls" and similar, which may be a reference to Lilith. Or maybe ostriches. I don't know. I need to find out why they've changed these translations...
"Serpent", elsewhere, is pretty flexible. From what I understand, the reference in Genesis could be anything from a snake to a worm to a crocodile to a full-blown dragon. Again, yeah, something I know I need to look into, but thanks.

More on-topic and relating to this, I'll be using four different Bible translations: King James, New International, Young's Literal and English Standard. I'm alright for Judeo-Christian stuff, more or less (except for extra-biblical folklore and the like), it's more the other religions I need some direction for.