Queen of the Spiders

[faceroll]

I'm running my 3.5 party through Gygax's 2e Queen of the Spiders module. The previous DM is pretty stoked to be playing through it again, but I am not that excited about running it. I kind of hate Gygax's work.

I want to subvert it or at least make it less crappy. Anyone familiar with the module?

[Darrin]

I'm running my 3.5 party through Gygax's 2e Queen of the Spiders module. The previous DM is pretty stoked to be playing through it again, but I am not that excited about running it. I kind of hate Gygax's work.

I want to subvert it or at least make it less crappy. Anyone familiar with the module?

"Queen of the Spiders" is a compilation of the 1st edition G1-3 + D1-3 + Q1 modules:

G1 - Steading of the Hill Giant Chief
G2 - Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl
G3 - Hall of the Fire Giant King
D1 - Descent into the Depths of the Earth
D2 - Shrine of the Kuo-Toa
D3 - Vault of the Drow
Q1 - Queen of the Demonweb Pits

(Technically, the last module is more of David C. Sutherland III's work than Gygax's.)

Portions of this campaign are considered "timeless classics" by older grognards. In fact, in 2004 Dungeon Magazine ranked as the single greated D&D adventure of all time. But I can see why large chunks of it might grate on more modern tastes.

You'll have to be more specific about which module you're having trouble with, or more specific "Gygaxisms" that are rubbing you the wrong way.

I'm more familiar with the D-series and I have a copy of Q1 sitting around somewhere, but the G series sounded absolutely boring to me, so I never bothered tracking it down. The older 1st edition material takes quite a bit of getting used to... you have to think of the older modules as "structural outlines" or the "nuts and bolts" of an adventure. A great deal of the "what is really going on", the "why" behind things, or anything resembling a coherent plot just is not in the text. There are two reasons for this:

1) Most of the older modules were designed to be run as tournement events at Gencon and Origins. In a convention setting, you don't have time to work out a complex backstory for each character, describe the backstory or setting elements, or weave a complex plotline through a detailed campaign world. You get a paragraph or two to set up the basic premise, but after that it's pick up your dice and *go*.

2) The 1st edition designers assumed the DM would fill in "the rest", whatever that might be. The "we can't afford real book-binding" staple-booklets had limited space, and were originally designed somewhat like "proto-splatbooks": they were the primary engine to introduce new spells, magic items, and monsters into the game. So the modules were basically highly-distilled crunch: mostly raw stat blocks. The fluff, the "reason why" stuff, you had to fill all that in on your own. The designers also assume that you already know this, or were going to ignore their fluff, since you probably had rewritten half of the "official" rules and already had several notebooks/binders full of your own campaign-specific notes.

[RTGoodman]

I looked into converting G1-2-3 (Against the Giants) for 3.5 a few years ago, and it mostly failed horribly. You can convert based on the "spirit" of the original module, but probably not encounter by encounter.

I mean, seriously, one encounter in the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief section has a cave bear, 8 ogres, 22 hill giants, 3 stone giants, a cloud giant, the subchief, the chief's wife (fights as a male hill giant), and Chief Nosnra himself (fights as a frost giant). Have fun with that, moderately-leveled 3.5 party!

[nyarlathotep]

I looked into converting G1-2-3 (Against the Giants) for 3.5 a few years ago, and it mostly failed horribly. You can convert based on the "spirit" of the original module, but probably not encounter by encounter.

I mean, seriously, one encounter in the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief section has a cave bear, 8 ogres, 22 hill giants, 3 stone giants, a cloud giant, the subchief, the chief's wife (fights as a male hill giant), and Chief Nosnra himself (fights as a frost giant). Have fun with that, moderately-leveled 3.5 party!

This is quite doable in 3.5 as long as the spellcasters still have at least half of their reserve. The biggest problem is that thanks to the hp creep between editions and the nerfing of fighter's extra attacks; the non-casters won't have much to contribute.

[hamlet]

What about the modules gives you agita? Or is it Gygaxianism in general? What about it?

What do you mean by "less crappy"? (by the by, an exceedingly loaded way of putting it that's sure to endear you to those who know the most about the modules):smallmad:

G1-3 are, generally, some of the most remembered and beloved modules from back in the day, and there's a reason for that. They're fun. They're fun to be a part of, and fun to run, though you have to look at them in the right light. Mainly, they're as much or more so a challenge for the players rather than their characters.

As has been said, a 3.x conversion is . . . troublesome. Giants got a massive power boost for 3.x and the encounter size dynamics are very different. Giants in 1.0 were tough, but generally could still be handled in droves without too much worry. By 3.x, as I recall, they got to be pretty tough and dangerous, even in very small quantities. I've seen one modest attempt at G1 that did good things by breaking up the big encounter in Norsna's main hall into smaller group encounters, segmenting it off into manageable hunks. IIRC, he treated Norsna's crossbow/ballista almost as a "wandering damage roll" rather than a straight up attack. Essentially, rather than a bull rush at the party, the giants, being the drunken egotistic leaders they are, would send in the lessers to take care of the pests while they stood back and enjoyed the show. As long as the players avoided "pulling agro" I suppose is the term, the fight become more manageable.

Changing the composition of the main room would also be of benefit.

How this would be managed in G2 or G3 I'm not sure, but I'm positive something could be arranged.

D1-2 would be very reasonable as 3.x adventures. Only a few sticky spots that you have to watch for, namely the Kuo-Toa temple which can turn into a mob very quickly, and the Lich, which in a 3.x environment is a TPK waiting to happen.

D3 is less an adventure and more of a setting splat book. It's a sourcebook about the Drow city in Greyhawk. And it's glorious in its way.

There's already a Q1 adaptation, though I've not any clue as to what it did to the original. Actually, out of all the modules, that's the one that I'd think would be most problematic for you if I'm reading you correctly. In terms of theme and style that is.

[Cartigan]

This is quite doable in 3.5 as long as the spellcasters still have at least half of their reserve. The biggest problem is that thanks to the hp creep between editions and the nerfing of fighter's extra attacks; the non-casters won't have much to contribute.
What level is this mass giant beatdown occurring at that it is doable?

[The Big Dice]

What level is this mass giant beatdown occurring at that it is doable?

It can happen surprisingly early. As long as you use the hp the module gives for the monsters, rather than the amounts given in the relevant Monster Manual entries.

[Cartigan]

It can happen surprisingly early. As long as you use the hp the module gives for the monsters, rather than the amounts given in the relevant Monster Manual entries.

It's not the damage that you do to them, it's the damage that they do to YOU.

The changes between 1E and 3.0 are so massive I don't see how a straight conversion is even remotely possible unless you start the game at.. 15? I mean, a cloud giant by itself is listed as a CR 11 encounter.

[RTGoodman]

It can happen surprisingly early. As long as you use the hp the module gives for the monsters, rather than the amounts given in the relevant Monster Manual entries.

Maybe in the original 1E, but I seriously doubt any mid-level party of 5 PCs in 3.x can take out that large of an encounter. Particularly with almost two dozen CR 7 Hill Giants, three CR 8 Stone Giants, a CR 11 Cloud Giant, and several other advanced Giants, probably with multiple class levels.


Even if you take them in small groups of 2-4 giants at a time, that's still a string of multiple encounters, each at EL 13+.

[faceroll]

I will get to the long posts here in a bit. I appreciate everyone that's commented. I really need some help with this module.


I looked into converting G1-2-3 (Against the Giants) for 3.5 a few years ago, and it mostly failed horribly. You can convert based on the "spirit" of the original module, but probably not encounter by encounter.

I mean, seriously, one encounter in the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief section has a cave bear, 8 ogres, 22 hill giants, 3 stone giants, a cloud giant, the subchief, the chief's wife (fights as a male hill giant), and Chief Nosnra himself (fights as a frost giant). Have fun with that, moderately-leveled 3.5 party!

I am more worried about the level 20 lich as a random encounter.

[Sebastrd]

If you were going to do this in 4E, you could make a lot of those big homogenous group minions. It's an option you may want to steal for your 3.5 conversion.

I think the more appropriate method would be to make these non-combat challenges. I doubt a CR20 lich has any interest in killing your mid-level party, but perhaps they have something it wants (information, magic item, etc.). As Obi Wan said, "There are alternatives to fighting."

One idea: One of my groups once encountered an oracle in the form of a faceless humanoid that "ate" magic items. We had to feed it a certain power level in magic items every time we wanted to ask a question. It was a very cool, very memorable encounter, and it was glaringly obvious that we didn't want to fight that creepy thing.

[Cartigan]

I am more worried about the level 20 lich as a random encounter.

...what?

I know a solution! If you roll 100 on percentile dice, the party rolls new characters.

[hamlet]

I will get to the long posts here in a bit. I appreciate everyone that's commented. I really need some help with this module.



I am more worried about the level 20 lich as a random encounter.

That would be in, I believe, D2. He's a guy that always stuck out of the module like a sore thumb, but some of the best stories get told about him.

Easiest way to survive it is to simply not turn it into a combat encounter. Party can simply apologize for invading his space and walk away virtually unharmed, or maybe just short a bribe (there's metric bucketfuls of treasure in these mods).

Or, simple solution, just lower his CR. Done.

[faceroll]

Darrin, thanks for the explanation of older edition modules.


You'll have to be more specific about which module you're having trouble with, or more specific "Gygaxisms" that are rubbing you the wrong way.

A lot of it strikes me as capricious and arbitrary. The lack of explanation for anything. Also, I feel like a lot of the monsters have magic items or equipment, but the most they do is blow a horn for their mates. It seems sort of, I dunno, kick in door, acquire treasure.

All of giant kind hanging out and working together for Lolth kind of grates on me, and what's the deal with the Kuo-Toa?

I also don't like how proscriptive it is without really explaining what's going on. It just seems to be one giant dungeon crawl with lists of loot and monsters. I'm really not sure what to do with it, seeing as how the grognard in my game has already read the module and played through it a long time ago and really liked it.

Should I just make stuff up that ties all these giants together and then they end up on Lolth's space ship?


What about the modules gives you agita? Or is it Gygaxianism in general? What about it?

Yeah, gygaxianism just seems dated. Kind of silly, or arbitrary, or just hackneyed. I understand that it was the original, but I also feel like fantasy RPGs have kind of moved on, and gygax's assumptions, play style, and world building grate on my more modern tastes.


What do you mean by "less crappy"? (by the by, an exceedingly loaded way of putting it that's sure to endear you to those who know the most about the modules):smallmad:

Sorry bro. I just mean having the module feel more like a real campaign as opposed to a handful of monsters that are hanging out waiting to get their stuff stolen from them. It's a little more detailed than that, but the module is pretty story-lite, motive-lite, etc.


G1-3 are, generally, some of the most remembered and beloved modules from back in the day, and there's a reason for that. They're fun. They're fun to be a part of, and fun to run, though you have to look at them in the right light. Mainly, they're as much or more so a challenge for the players rather than their characters.

As has been said, a 3.x conversion is . . . troublesome. Giants got a massive power boost for 3.x and the encounter size dynamics are very different. Giants in 1.0 were tough, but generally could still be handled in droves without too much worry. By 3.x, as I recall, they got to be pretty tough and dangerous, even in very small quantities. I've seen one modest attempt at G1 that did good things by breaking up the big encounter in Norsna's main hall into smaller group encounters, segmenting it off into manageable hunks. IIRC, he treated Norsna's crossbow/ballista almost as a "wandering damage roll" rather than a straight up attack. Essentially, rather than a bull rush at the party, the giants, being the drunken egotistic leaders they are, would send in the lessers to take care of the pests while they stood back and enjoyed the show. As long as the players avoided "pulling agro" I suppose is the term, the fight become more manageable.

Changing the composition of the main room would also be of benefit.

How this would be managed in G2 or G3 I'm not sure, but I'm positive something could be arranged.

D1-2 would be very reasonable as 3.x adventures. Only a few sticky spots that you have to watch for, namely the Kuo-Toa temple which can turn into a mob very quickly, and the Lich, which in a 3.x environment is a TPK waiting to happen.

D3 is less an adventure and more of a setting splat book. It's a sourcebook about the Drow city in Greyhawk. And it's glorious in its way.

There's already a Q1 adaptation, though I've not any clue as to what it did to the original. Actually, out of all the modules, that's the one that I'd think would be most problematic for you if I'm reading you correctly. In terms of theme and style that is.

Yeah, I'm just going to wing it with the giants. The party is around level 10, with 6 characters. The giants will be tough, but they've got some capable spell casters and have found a handful of nicely abusable spells for them to work with. The melee does pretty good damage. 'Course, giants are really good at laying the smack down in 3e.

[hamlet]

A lot of it strikes me as capricious and arbitrary. The lack of explanation for anything. Also, I feel like a lot of the monsters have magic items or equipment, but the most they do is blow a horn for their mates. It seems sort of, I dunno, kick in door, acquire treasure.

Well . . . what's arbitrary? Specifically?

Yes, a good deal of the stuff in these modules was in there originally for the coolness factor. I would count the lich as one of those. It was left up to the DM to either decide whether or not to use it, or to decide the why of it being there sometimes.

As for magic items . . . why oh why wouldn't you have the monsters using said magic items? Assuming they were capable (had the anatomy and intelligence for it) they most certainly would be using them! That's one of the reasons they're listed there!



All of giant kind hanging out and working together for Lolth kind of grates on me, and what's the deal with the Kuo-Toa?


Ok:

1) Common misconception. The giants are not working for Lolth, either directly or indirectly. They are working for Eclavdra who is using them to foment chaos on the surface realms and gain cash and power enough for her to follower her true plan, which is to challenge the Lolth centric society of the drow and topple it in favor of her Elder Elemental Evil deity (remember him from T1-4?). In actuallity, smart players can, and often do, make allies of the Lolth-ites in confronting and toppling Eclavdra, though there's no specific "dungeon" devoted to the event. It's assumed that the DM will manufacture the situation to suit how his players have performed up until that moment. That's why D3 has such a long discourse on the society and politics in the city.

2) The Kuo-Toa are actually explained within the module. They set up the temple there and have engaged in some trade with the drow, but despise them. They are not inherently confrontational and might be persueded to permit PC's to pass unharmed, possibly even provide covert aid. However, this might scotch any deals with the Svirfneblin, other potential allies.



I also don't like how proscriptive it is without really explaining what's going on. It just seems to be one giant dungeon crawl with lists of loot and monsters. I'm really not sure what to do with it, seeing as how the grognard in my game has already read the module and played through it a long time ago and really liked it.

That's an Old School thing. Very much so. The modules are there to provide you with the map and the contents and sometimes an overarching function, but it was expected that the DM would craft the connective tissue so to speak that binds the module to his campaign. It's up to you to figure out how these things fit in and, sometimes, what's going on. There isn't a pre-determined story or plot.

If you want to see how it can be done, I recommend heading over to the Dragonsfoot forums and reading some of the campaign journals there. Especially that of the Crazy Canuks. That's really a stellar example of how to make it work very well. Heck, dude ported it from Greyhawk to Forgotten Realms almost seamlessly.



Should I just make stuff up that ties all these giants together and then they end up on Lolth's space ship?


The ties that bind the giants together are already stated in the modules, though you have to look closely since they're only mentioned in passing in the introductions, I think. Also important to note, the giants, as a whole, aren't working together so much as they are working in separate, independant groups towards a broadly similar goal with a common impetus (i.e., Eclavdra) behind them. She's set them up, sort of, as terrorist/pirate cells to screw with the normals on the surface. Her motives are explored, briefly, in later parts of the modules.

And, for the record, yes, you're supposed to make stuff up either when you can't find the reason written down, or when you don't like the reason given. That's really the spirit of the thing. Go wild, man!

Also for the record, Lolth's lair is . . . sort of a big lipped alligator moment for all of the GDQ series. The party's beef, up until that point, has never been with Lolth, but with Eclavdra . . . so why the module focused around beating up the spider witch? Also also, the module itself is a little wonky, and some folks don't like it (me included for much of it). However, some nice gentleman at Dragonsfoot created an alternate Q1 that is probably a little better in terms of form and function. Worth a look for the $0 cost eh?



Yeah, gygaxianism just seems dated. Kind of silly, or arbitrary, or just hackneyed. I understand that it was the original, but I also feel like fantasy RPGs have kind of moved on, and gygax's assumptions, play style, and world building grate on my more modern tastes.

Yeah, Gygax's style is dated. Not because it's "not good" or "bad" or anything like that, but because, largely and for better or worse, the RPG industry has simply moved on to different things. The products being produced are different and the general tastes of the target audience have changed modestly towards more plot and story involved matters where they're written down rather than invented by the DM.

For whatever its' worth, though, there are still quite a number of old school style modules being published out there even now of varying quality and entertainment value.

I feel, also, that I should note that the Spider Queen GDQ series is actually the latter half of what was the original "adventure path" of AD&D. It was noted in later 1e products that one could, quite literally, start a 1st level character in T1-4, play through that, the A series (slavers), and then into the GDQ sequence and end up with a high level character with minimal side adventures to fill in the gaps. So, in fact, it's the TAGDQ series. Something I've actually always wanted to try to run.




Sorry bro. I just mean having the module feel more like a real campaign as opposed to a handful of monsters that are hanging out waiting to get their stuff stolen from them. It's a little more detailed than that, but the module is pretty story-lite, motive-lite, etc.



*shrug* You aren't offending me. I'm just pointing out that those words and attitude tend to stick in the craw of the people who know the most about these modules and can give you lots of help. Kind of like poking your waitress in the eye at the local diner.



Yeah, I'm just going to wing it with the giants. The party is around level 10, with 6 characters. The giants will be tough, but they've got some capable spell casters and have found a handful of nicely abusable spells for them to work with. The melee does pretty good damage. 'Course, giants are really good at laying the smack down in 3e.

I see you've discovered the true spirit of Old School! Pulling the good stuff out of places best left unmentioned!:smallsmile:

[faceroll]

Well . . . what's arbitrary? Specifically?

I know it must be the system, but for instance, in the frost giant lair, you roll 1d6, followed by another 1d6, to see if a player falls off a cliff. It's kinda like 1d6 investigators a round. All that takes is adding some DC10 and DC15 balance checks, but the underlying mechanic of "roll dice, players fall" just... bugs me. I don't have an old school MM, so I can't read a lot about the monsters, but some of the monster choices are odd, like hill giants in temperate mountains with carnivorous apes or ropers hanging out with lolth in the demonweb. And what the heck is an Ice Toad? Intelligent, flesh eating toads that are very cold?

But thanks for all the advice and story explanation, I will certainly be coming back here for more of it. Going to be starting the hill giant encounter this Friday, I think. I'm going to run it as is, straight out of the 3.5 monster manual/module. Boss monsters will get max HP and elite array, maybe a couple feats repicked. Other than that, I'll see how it goes and how the party fairs. Later areas may require more or less tinkering, mechanically.

[hamlet]

I know it must be the system, but for instance, in the frost giant lair, you roll 1d6, followed by another 1d6, to see if a player falls off a cliff. It's kinda like 1d6 investigators a round. All that takes is adding some DC10 and DC15 balance checks, but the underlying mechanic of "roll dice, players fall" just... bugs me.

Well, keep in mind that not only was this module published before the invention of the "ability check" which rapidly became the standard, but before the PHB IIRC. Or at least one of the core books. Gary was still perfeting the craft so to speak.

And, as you said, easily fixable.


I don't have an old school MM, so I can't read a lot about the monsters, but some of the monster choices are odd, like hill giants in temperate mountains with carnivorous apes or ropers hanging out with lolth in the demonweb. And what the heck is an Ice Toad? Intelligent, flesh eating toads that are very cold?

That is precisely what Ice Toads are. They were a monster somewhere in one of the monster manuals. Can't remember which now. Old School D&D has a strange fascination with toads . . .

Carnivorous apes with giants is actually listed in the manual, I think. They are kept as pets/guards. In fact, if you look through it, most humanoid, giantish, and demi-human "monsters" in the MM are listed with non-human/animal side-kicks. It's what we've been calling Gygaxian Naturalism in the last 5 or so years.



But thanks for all the advice and story explanation, I will certainly be coming back here for more of it. Going to be starting the hill giant encounter this Friday, I think. I'm going to run it as is, straight out of the 3.5 monster manual/module. Boss monsters will get max HP and elite array, maybe a couple feats repicked. Other than that, I'll see how it goes and how the party fairs. Later areas may require more or less tinkering, mechanically.


Hey, happy to help. And good luck to you and the players. Let us know how it goes.

[The Big Dice]

You could always check out the Enworld Conversions (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4554954-post5.html). I found the Temple of Elemental Evil and D1-2 conversions quite helpful.

They don't give you a reason to be there, but then that's not really what 1st ed AD&D modules are about. Come up with that stuff yerself, already!