My DM says you can't use Trip, Disarm, and Sundering as part of a Full Attack

[Sims]

He actually got really pissed off at me for even thinking that. I always thought you could Attack->Disarm->Trip->Attack. Is there anything in the rules (preferrably in the 3 core books) that covers this?

EDIT: Assume I have Improved Versions of all these special attacks

[DarkEternal]

I'm pretty sure you need the improved versions of those maneuvers to use them as a part of a full attack and not as everything in a full attack, though frankly I'm not too sure. I would recommend Rules Compendium for this.

[Sillycomic]

Well, there's a difference between your DM saying you can't do it, and the rules saying you can't do it.

Is he saying you can't do it per the rules? Or is he saying you can't do that sort of thing in his game?

[Sims]

Well, there's a difference between your DM saying you can't do it, and the rules saying you can't do it.

Is he saying you can't do it per the rules? Or is he saying you can't do that sort of thing in his game?

He doesn't think its in the rules. If he saw that you could, he'd probably let me. But I don't know where to find it either.

[Apophis]

From the SRD
Disarm
As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent.

SRD
Sunder
You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

SRD
Trip
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack.

They all count as a single melee attack, so you can full attack and do all of them, provided you have enough iterative attacks.

[Bakkan]

More explicitly, look at page 141 of the Player's Handbook, under action types. Trip, Grapple, and Disarm all have a footnote which explicitly says they can be used as part of a charge or multiple times in a full attack, or as an Attack of Opportunity.

However, Sunder is listed in that same section under Standard Actions, so it is logical to conclude that a single sunder attempt takes a standard action.

[KillianHawkeye]

Note that doing so does not even require the "Improved X" feat for that special attack.

[jguy]

If you look at the Improved Trip feat, it even gives an example of using it during a full attack!

Edit: The only time I got personally annoyed at Improved Trip during a full attack was when one of my player would use it on his last attack. His first attack was almost guaranteed to hit, which is fine, his second attack had a less chance to hit which is fine, but his third could only hit on a really good roll. He'd use that last attack to be a touch attack to trip, it'd almost always succeed, and then his free attack would get a +4 to hit prone. I was tempted to put in a ruling of you take a penalty to your strength check equal to your penalty to BAB but decided against it. Was just annoying though.

[Runestar]

The only time I got personally annoyed at Improved Trip during a full attack was when one of my player would use it on his last attack. His first attack was almost guaranteed to hit, which is fine, his second attack had a less chance to hit which is fine, but his third could only hit on a really good roll. He'd use that last attack to be a touch attack to trip, it'd almost always succeed, and then his free attack would get a +4 to hit prone.

Won't it be a better idea to trip on your 1st attack? This way, all your subsequent attacks would benefit from the +4 to-hit. :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

Why penalize him for using good tactics? It's even thematically/logically appropriate, too - you've just whacked someone in the face a few times, they might not be expecting you to sudden switch up and go for their legs.

[gallagher]

i am curious... are you allowed to make, say, a disarm attack as part of the attack granted after a trip attempt with improved trip? it'd be one helluva way to use that attack at the end of a charge if you dont have a form of pounce

[Runestar]

i am curious... are you allowed to make, say, a disarm attack as part of the attack granted after a trip attempt with improved trip? it'd be one helluva way to use that attack at the end of a charge if you dont have a form of pounce

Yes. Special attacks like trip and disarm are attack actions, so you can use them in place of normal attacks, including AoOs. :smallsmile:

Did this once with a spiked chain. Foe tried to move in, provoked an AoO, managed to trip him and disarm him with the extra attack. :smallbiggrin:

[Elric VIII]

You could even try explaining it to your DM that attacking someone's legs/weapon takes the same amount of time as attacking their torso (or other vital area) so there isn't even a logical reason to say it doesn't happen. The extra aim involved is simulated by requiring specific training (Improved x feat) or concentrating on making a hit (Provoking AoO).

Not to derail the thread, but can you replace natural attacks with trip/disarm attempts as well?

[Curmudgeon]

Not to derail the thread, but can you replace natural attacks with trip/disarm attempts as well?
If the natural attack is listed as being a tripping weapon, yes.

[jguy]

Why penalize him for using good tactics? It's even thematically/logically appropriate, too - you've just whacked someone in the face a few times, they might not be expecting you to sudden switch up and go for their legs.

I didn't penalize him, I thought about it but decided not too because he just did 1 thing really well and I'd be handicapping him pretty bad by doing that. It just annoyed me a little since it would make his turn go longer because he'd constantly switch up his routine of when he would or would not trip and he had a lot of immediate actions/swift action he'd pull at the last possible second... We had to start making him state right at the beginning of his turn what he planned to do so he didn't suddenly decide in the middle of an attack routine to suddenly Two Weapon Fight even though he knew he couldn't. Nice guy, just that got to me after awhile.

[Elric VIII]

If the natural attack is listed as being a tripping weapon, yes.

So, if I have a Warhorse with Imp Trip and class levels I can't replace hooves with trips since the MM entry doesn't say anything about it?

[Curmudgeon]

So, if I have a Warhorse with Imp Trip and class levels I can't replace hooves with trips since the MM entry doesn't say anything about it?
That's right; the rules are quite picky about how you're allowed to make trip attacks. Even though a quarterstaff is pretty good at sweeping someone's legs out from under them, it's not an allowed tripping weapon according to the 3.5 rules.

[Runestar]

You can trip with any natural attack, no provision is required.

So a dragon with 6 natural attacks can opt to make 6 trip attempts instead of its normal full-attack routine. A minotaur can trip with its gore etc. Odd as it seems. :smallsmile:

[Cyphrus]

-snip-

Well and a fine hello to you too, J.

Though really now, making use of the free attack from improved trip to do something like a disarm, that's a fantastic idea!

[Curmudgeon]

You can trip with any natural attack, no provision is required.
I think you'll need to back that up with a rules quote. There's nothing in the description of natural weapons (Monster Manual, page 312) or trip attacks (Player's Handbook, pages 158-159) which says this. Only unarmed attacks and tripping weapons may be used by default; creatures who can trip with natural weapons (such as the Cheetah) have that specially mentioned in their descriptions.

[Echoes]

The trip attack mentioned in monster entries as an (Ex) ability actually functions differently than a regular trip attack, and closer to someone using the "Improved Trip" feat. I think it's a very murky area that's ill-defined by the RAW ruleset, but personally I would rule that, if humanoids can use their fists to make an unarmed trip attempt, so should monsters be able to with their claws, paws, and talons.

[Curmudgeon]

I would rule that, if humanoids can use their fists to make an unarmed trip attempt, so should monsters be able to with their claws, paws, and talons.
Unarmed attacks are just one type of natural attack, with special characteristics. Extending from a special case to general use is how a lot of problems get created.

[jguy]

Well and a fine hello to you too, J.

Though really now, making use of the free attack from improved trip to do something like a disarm, that's a fantastic idea!

Speak of the tripping devil!

[Runestar]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg

Let your DM read the articles on tripping. :smallsmile:

Still can't find the clause which lets you trip with natural weapons, but it seems to make sense.:smallannoyed:

[John Campbell]

AFAICT, you don't even get to make trip attacks, per se, with natural weapons that have the Trip special ability. You make regular attacks, and if you hit, you just get a free trip as part of that.


The trip attack mentioned in monster entries as an (Ex) ability actually functions differently than a regular trip attack, and closer to someone using the "Improved Trip" feat.
Like Improved Trip, but the other way around, really.

I've been trying to come up with a way (in Pathfinder, with most 3.5 stuff that wasn't replaced available) to get my wolf animal companion Improved/Greater Trip (and Combat Reflexes, but that's easy enough). Greater Trip, in Pathfinder, doesn't just give a free attack... it causes the trippee to provoke an AoO. And the rule that AoOs happen before the event that provoked them resolves, that keeps you from tripping someone with the AoO provoked when they try to stand up, cuts both ways... when the AoO they provoke for being tripped happens, they're not yet tripped. Which means they can be tripped again.

So a critter with both the Trip special ability (which wolves get) and Greater Trip can make an attack, and if the attack hits, it gets a free trip attempt against the target. If that trip attempt is successful, the target provokes, and the critter can make another attack against the target as an AoO. And if the AoO hits, it gets another free trip attempt, which, if successful, provokes another AoO, which can be used to make another attack, another free trip attempt, another AoO... etc., until the tripping critter misses an attack, fails a trip attempt, or runs out of AoOs, at which point the successful trips, like German verbs, all resolve at once and the target becomes very, very prone. (Also probably very, very dead.)

And as a bonus, if I've got my saber out, I, riding the wolf, get to make AoOs until my wolf fails a trip (my Large wolf with the 25+ Str and Improved and Greater Trip...) or I run out, too. (And the wolf runs out of Dex mod before I do.)

I can't figure out a way to avoid the 13 Int, Combat Expertise prereq, though, or meet it without burning way too much cash and resources on wishes or the like to give the wolf sufficient inherent bonus to Int. Awakening him could work, but would render him ineligible to continue as my animal companion. Anyone got any suggestions for how I can teach my wolf to juggle?

[Keld Denar]

Note that EVERYTHING has an Unarmed Strike attack available. Humans, dogs, cats, otyuths, and dragons alike, and thus can trip with those attacks. If a creature who normally attacks with natural weapons makes UASs, his primary natural attack reverts to secondary status, he gets iterative UASs according to his BAB, and then makes ALL natural attacks as secondary attacks.

[MeeposFire]

Unless it had improved unarmed strike all their unarmed strikes would provoke AoOs.

[Killer Angel]

Edit: The only time I got personally annoyed at Improved Trip during a full attack was when one of my player would use it on his last attack. His first attack was almost guaranteed to hit, which is fine, his second attack had a less chance to hit which is fine, but his third could only hit on a really good roll. He'd use that last attack to be a touch attack to trip, it'd almost always succeed, and then his free attack would get a +4 to hit prone. I was tempted to put in a ruling of you take a penalty to your strength check equal to your penalty to BAB but decided against it. Was just annoying though.


but...but... I've never played with you! :smalltongue:

Jokes apart, yes, I've done it sometime, but more with: my first 2 attacks on the almost untrippable critter, and the third on his trippable ally.

[Douglas]

For a rules reference, see footnote number 2 on this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#tableMiscellaneousActions).

More generally, anything that says "as a melee attack" (or similar phrasing) rather than "as a standard action" can be used as part of a full attack or even as an AoO.

[manyslayer]

Unless it had improved unarmed strike all their unarmed strikes would provoke AoOs.

Or had Improved Trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTrip). That specifies that unarmed trip attempts do not provoke AoOs. Strangely, though, the follow-up attack from Improved Trip would provoke an AoO if you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike (of course, your opponent would be prone).

But back to the OP, our bard/fighter in our last campaign would periodically place 3 or 4 people on their buts with dagger-whip trips each round.

[Sims]

Why is Sundering a full Standard and Tripping isn't? Attack someone, and attacking someones weapons can't take that much longer in diffrence.

[Douglas]

Sundering has the "melee attack" wording too, it's just not included in that particular table.

[Sims]

Sundering has the "melee attack" wording too, it's just not included in that particular table.

Well, my DM is kind of a jerk sometimes, and probably still won't let me have more than 1 Sunder attempt in any given round, unless it was on that particuler table. T_T

[Douglas]

You could try referring him to this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a).