[3.5] Help with leader fighter build

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Hi everyone. I'm going to start a new campaign as a player in FR. I've been playing too many spellcasters until now, so I want to change to the opposite road.

I want to play a fighter with no spellcasting abilities. I'm the player with more experience in RPGs in our group (in fact the others are almost newbies), I'm sure I'll be the one taking many decisions and treating with NPCs so I don't want a hit-hit-hit everything fighter. I was thinking more of a fighter with a leader role.

My idea is to build a fighter highly resilient, able to deal with NPCs via Diplomacy and Sense Motive, and effective in combat.

I don't want a killing-machine, but I want him able to start fights, to stand alive and to fight with competence.

6th level, core, FRCS and completes allowed
Rolls: 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10

I've thought the following

Half elf (for the diplomacy bonus and the low-light vision)

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14(13+1 at 4th level)

Maxed skills: Diplomacy, Sense Motive, ?

Feats: Able Learner (Sense Motive), Iron Will, Negotiator, ?

Please, note that I don't want an optimized build, so I'm only eager to have two classes (no marshall, no swashbuckler, BTW).

I'm thinking in taking 4 levels of fighter and 2 of hexblade (for the Will Save, the diplomacy skill and the Arcane Resistance)

So, any ideas of what class combo or feats should I take? :smallamused:

Thanks in advance.

[Runestar]

I would recommend warblade with a focus on white raven maneuvers. You still get crucial skills like diplomacy, and can augment players' attacks.

[Treblain]

The Outcast Champion from Races of Destiny sounds like it would really fit your character concept. It's a five-level, full BAB, d10 HD prestige class, it gets Diplomacy, and its class abilities are all focused on teamwork and leadership. The only requirement is to be a half-human, which you already are, and have 8 ranks in Diplomacy or Intimidate, which you'd pick up anyway.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Good idea Treblain. And I just realized that I could use the half-elf fighter substitution levels (from the same handbook) to get the diplomacy skill and 4 skill points per level!

This is taking shape.

Runestar, I don't know warblade at all. Is it a PrC?

[Greymane]

Runestar, I don't know warblade at all. Is it a PrC?

Ao have mercy! :smalleek:

Warblade is a class from the book Tome of Battle. Instead of feats like a Fighter, it gets class features and access to Maneuvers, which are basically Melee-styled spells that include displays of combat prowess, such as disarming or hitting two opponents ( or more ) at once.

White Raven is one of the Disciplines the Warblade gets Maneuvers from, and they're focused around teamwork in the thick of battle. Ideal for a leadership fighter guy.

It also gets Diplomacy as a class skill.

[Thurbane]

I would recommend warblade with a focus on white raven maneuvers. You still get crucial skills like diplomacy, and can augment players' attacks.
*small sigh* Take another look at his list of allowed sources. I don't see any ToB there...

[Goonthegoof]

Races weren't mentioned either.
But yeah, you should try to persuade your DM to let you use tome of battle, a crusader or warblade would fit what you want perfectly.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

I'll try, just in case.

I just took a look at the Warblade in the Tome of Battle excerpt and it looks very nice! No Sense Motive though.

[Telonius]

Another possibility: Paladin/Bard with Devoted Performer. You'll definitely have diplomacy and sense motive covered, and Bard levels would give you some additional skillpoints. Divine Grace will put your Charisma to use for your saves. Just make sure you take Bard first (for the skill points), then alignment change to Lawful for Paladin. Or, if Unearthed Arcana is available (many people consider it part of core), Paladin of Freedom and you don't have to change alignments.

[nedz]

You're request seems quite hard to answer.

No spellcasting rules out lots of classes.

I'm curious why no Marshall ?
It seems to fit the concept well.
Ok - you don't want a multitude of dips - so try :-
Marshall 4/Fighter 2
Its very sub-optimal, but you should be outplaying the newbies anyway.

I'd suggest Bard, but ... you don't want spell-casting.

Anyway: what about Fighter/Rogue ?
Lots of skill points for social skills: so just ignore the stealthy stuff and go for these.

[subject42]

What about the no-spellcasting Paladin Variant? Full BAB, good class skills, good saves, and bonus feats? I believe it's in complete warrior.

[WinWin]

Swashbuckler from complete warrior. Combine with rogue or fighter and some class synergy feats from complete scoundrel. Not high op, but respectable.

[Zaq]

I'll try, just in case.

I just took a look at the Warblade in the Tome of Battle excerpt and it looks very nice! No Sense Motive though.

Take the feat Martial Study. It gives you an extra maneuver known (from any discipline) and makes that discipline's key skill into a class skill for you forevermore. Setting Sun's key skill is Sense Motive. Take Counter Charge or something.

[subject42]

Swashbuckler from complete warrior. Combine with rogue or fighter and some class synergy feats from complete scoundrel. Not high op, but respectable.

The OP mentions that Swashbuckler isn't available, unfortunately.

[WinWin]

Reading fail. Thug fighter variant. Or just play a rogue and be dione with it.

[Amiria]

If you can live with a BAB hit, how about starting in Half-Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfElfParagon) (if Unearthed Arcana / SRD counts) as core and then going into Paladin ?

I currently play a Half-Elf Bard 1 / Half-Elf Paragon 1 / Paladin 4 with the feats

Artist (PgtF), 1st level
Versatile Performer (CAd), 3rd level
Devoted Performer (CAd), bonus feat from Half-Elf Paragon
Initiate of Milil (CoV), 6th level (changed to a deity of our homebrew setting)

Along with the Harmonious Knight Paladin Substitution Levels from the CoV Web Enhancement.

We use fractional BAB and saves. Versatile Performer could be switched out for something else, but it has been always a mandatory feat for all bards I ever played.

The plan is to take the other 2 levels of Half-Elf Paragon asap (adding the spell casting level to Bard) and up to 4 more levels of Bard so that BAB doesn't take more than another -1 hit. But probably not so much Bard for more Paladin's fighting prowess.

[Seerow]

What Im getting out of this thread is "I want to be socially adept, but I intend to play the class that is the worst suited for it, and any other classes that could do it while still being similarly themed are off limits"

[Doc Roc]

What Im getting out of this thread is "I want to be socially adept, but I intend to play the class that is the worst suited for it, and any other classes that could do it while still being similarly themed are off limits"

Sounds like you want a Divine Crusader with the Time domain!

Err.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

What Im getting out of this thread is "I want to be socially adept, but I intend to play the class that is the worst suited for it, and any other classes that could do it while still being similarly themed are off limits"

And what it really means is "I want a melee build, resilient and with Diplomacy and Sense Motive maximized". :smallwink:

Really, I don't want a highly optimized build. Just a melee combatant able to stand in the front for long (so high AC, high HP, moderate Will save).

The paladin of freedom/bard idea is not bad, though I'm not confortable with the idea of a paladin being the leader of a group. He's unable to take care of the group as he cares for the greater good only (well that and his stick in his ass).

WinWin pointed out the Thug variant, and it's not a bad idea. If I can convince my DM to substitute Bluff and Gather Information for Diplomacy and Sense Motive, it could be a good start.

[nedz]

Really, I don't want a highly optimized build. Just a melee combatant able to stand in the front for long (so high AC, high HP, moderate Will save).


Oh - why didn't you say so.
Try

Half Elf Fighter Racial Varient from Races of Destiny. It gives you exactly this, albeit your HD drop to d8s. You also get 4+ Skill Points and Bluff. And your a half elf, which you also mentioned.

HexBlade you've already found. Marshall and Swashbuckler do this, but you don't like them.

And from the left of the field we have Aristocrat :smallbiggrin:

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Oh - why didn't you say so.
Try

Half Elf Fighter Racial Varient from Races of Destiny. It gives you exactly this, albeit your HD drop to d8s. You also get 4+ Skill Points and Bluff. And your a half elf, which you also mentioned.

HexBlade you've already found. Marshall and Swashbuckler do this, but you don't like them.

And from the left of the field we have Aristocrat :smallbiggrin:

Lol, I also considered taking one level in Aristocrat (noble), for just a very brief moment, and on behalf of Lord Soho :smallwink:

But I'm thinking about the half elf racial variant. Not so bad, I think it wouldn't hurt just d8 insteand of d10 in 3 levels, would it? Although the 6th substitution level ability seems worthless... :smallsigh:

[nedz]

Actually all the feat replacements are fairly poor.
You don't have to take all three optional levels, you could just take one.
You only gain the skill point bonus etc. for the levels you do take.

So at 1st level you go Half Elf Fighter, mainly so that you get 4 ranks in the skills you want, and so that you can always max them out (albeit at double cost). This costs you a feat choice for Weapon Focus, but since you are going to be a fighter you will have plenty of feats anyway, eventually.

You take the 2nd level, if that fits your choice of fighting style, but not otherwise.

You take the 6th level, well maybe, but probably not.

The only problem you are left with is how to get 4 skill points per level to keep your Skills up ?
Int 14, Int 13 bumped to 14, Int 12+Nymph's Kiss, etc. are all obvious.

[Endarire]

Define "optimized." You can be a Warblade with Martial Study: Counter Charge to get Sense Motive as class.

You can do lots of damage, shrug off save-based effects via Diamond Mind maneuver, and be the warrior type, but a caster who understands and uses his spells- even his core spells- will still eventually outshine you.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Define "optimized." You can be a Warblade with Martial Study: Counter Charge to get Sense Motive as class.

You can do lots of damage, shrug off save-based effects via Diamond Mind maneuver, and be the warrior type, but a caster who understands and uses his spells- even his core spells- will still eventually outshine you.

Well, when I say I don't want my character being too optimized, I mean I don't want to multiclass into 4 classes and taking 5 level dips into PrCs. The further I would go is 2 classes and 1 PrC. I like keeping characters with class sobriety.

Taking that into account, in this case what I want is, for roleplaying reasons and in no particular order: 1) High HP and AC, moderate will Save, 2) Competent melee combat ability (I don't want a über specialized Spiked Chain master, but a warrior fighting elegantly and efficiently with a sword or a spear could do, the highest BAB the better) 3) Maximized Diplomacy/Sense Motive skills.

No Paladin (I don't want to be restricted by a code), Marshal (I want more BAB) neither Swashbuckler (too MAD for my build).

The Warblade and the Tome of Battle stuff is very good, but unfortunately my DM doesn't allow it. :smallsigh:

Until now, the best I got is the Half-Elf fighter substitution levels from Races of Destiny (ignoring the 6th level) or the Thug fighter variant from Unearthed Arcana (convincing my DM of changing Bluff/Gather Information for Diplomacy/Sense Motive).

[Cog]

...neither Swashbuckler (too MAD for my build).
It doesn't need to be. You could go for a Daring Outlaw build; Rogue 3/Swash17. Daring Outlaw is a feat from Complete Scoundrel that stacks Swash levels with Rogue for determining your sneak attack damage. You have almost full BAB, so with power attack and sneak attack plus free Weapon Finesse, you're not highly reliant on either Str or Int.

[Denomar]

I think the hardest thing justifying fighter here is just that they don't get either diplomacy Or sense motive as class skills. And while you don't want to take Marshall. The Marshall is exactly the kind of figure that you are describing.

I'd suggest looking into the book Heroes of Battle if possible. There are systems in there for becoming a military officer as well as things like teamwork feats and the prestige class Legendary Leader.

[Abemad]

Id second the half-elf fighter, going for outcast champion, but i'd make it a shield fighter (see personmans excelent guide on this), for a "first in, last out" type fighter :smallwink:

[super dark33]

take leadership as feat. get a santa-little-helper-killer-machine and an army of 1st level warriors at your back, its VERY useful for roleplaying.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Id second the half-elf fighter, going for outcast champion, but i'd make it a shield fighter (see personmans excelent guide on this), for a "first in, last out" type fighter :smallwink:

Yeah, for combat style I was thinking in the shield way too. With shield specialization, agile shield fighter and shield ward, I should be able to stand for long in a fight and still get a few good hits in the monsters' faces.

Outcast champion is a very good PrC for my idea, and although it lacks Sense Motive, it has only 5 levels, so I guss I could the half elf substitution level at some point and spend all skills points on Sense Motive. :smallamused:

[nedz]

Maybe two levels of Half-Elf Fighter then ?
You'd have enough skill points for Bluff 5 (for synergy) and the re-fluffed TWF.

Add in Improved Buckler Defense and you could still take your shield feats.

[dextercorvia]

I started a post earlier, but lost it. So you get the short version. Play a cleric. Beatstick, Face +more