The Dweomermass - A Non-Quidditch Wizard Sport

[Welknair]

This was an off-shoot idea from my Magitech System (See Sig). The idea was that in an advanced civilization, there would eventually be a sport which would allow Wizards to display their skills without killing one another and with more intricacy than simply blasting each other to bits (Which is the the purpose of the Dweomerlist tournament given in Complete Arcane). So I had the idea for this sport.

The basic idea is that there are two or more teams competing at once, each starting with a small stone pedestal with a scroll on it. When a team has their scroll stolen and touched to another team's pedestal, the team that is now sans scroll is now out of the competition. So in the case of two teams, the first to capture the other team's scroll wins. When a scroll is touched to a pedestal which it does not start at, there is a large light burst above, signaling the deed. By casting Read Magic on the scroll, you know when it was last successfully touched to a pedestal (This is used for tie-breakers).

The fields vary greatly, from flat stone to lush forests to old ruins. All of these are generated randomly when the game starts. Field sizes range from 50 Feet Squared, to 5000 Feet Squared. The game itself goes until one team is left victorious. Depending upon the strength of the participants, these competitions can take a very long time.

There is always a five-minute prep period before the competition proper begins. During this time a Forcewall spans the middle of the arena. Most teams have one of their participants do something to cloud their side of the wall to hide their other preparations.

Standard non-lethal competition rules hold. Force and Energy spells are pulled, dealing half damage (Or are modified by Nonlethal Substitution). No spells that cause Death Effects are allowed. Weapon-like spells must be made at a -4 to deal nonlethal damage. All summoners must be able to communicate with their summons as to tell them to strike for nonlethal damage as well. Any spell that inflicts negative levels that have a chance of becoming permanent must similarly be pulled. This simply removes the chance of the levels becoming permanent.

If a participant stands over an unconscious or immobile opponent and chants the Incantation of Defeat for a full minute, the opponent is teleported to the nearest edge of the arena. During this minute, the opponent is woken up if they are naturally asleep, or are given an additional Will Save if otherwise compelled.

If any participants leave the area, they forfeit but their teams continue. You are not allowed to re-enter the arena.

If the battle goes on long, food and water are conjured for each participant thrice a day.

Specially marked Arcane Eyes float above the arena, conveying their information to large Major Images for the pleasure of the audience.

The Dweomermass has four divisions for various levels of Wizard.

3-5: Novice
6-10: Adept
11-15: Advanced
16-20: Master

Wizards who are level 1 and 2 really shouldn't be competing professionally, but may still play in small fields and whatnot. Epic Level Wizards will likely level the nation they're in if they try to compete. These levels are based entirely upon their levels in Arcane Casting Classes.

Participants are allowed basic robes, their spellbook (A spellbook. And it can't be a Boccob's Blessed Book), a single familiar, a spell components pouch containing up to 2 pounds of materials, and a number of wands, staves, and scrolls who's market values total no more than an amount based upon their division (1k, 5k, 10k, or 25k, respectively).

The standard is 10 participants to a team. Usually this is one of each specialist with an additional two slots for team oddities. No team may have more than two of any one specialist type. An interesting variation is to allow other spellcasting classes. A single cleric on each teams can be an interesting addition...

So... thoughts? (This does go in Roleplaying, right? It's not making new rules, just using old ones)

Edit: Almost forgot, this would be using my Spell Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190878). Wouldn't last very long, otherwise.

[arguskos]

Would there be considerations for non-arcane casters? Divine casters could easily participate in this.

What about non-casters, or alternative casters? Shadowcasters, binders, psions, warlocks, martialists, thieves, etc?

I like the concept as world flavor... but it's basically unusable in-game unless you have a party with 100% arcanists, which makes me very sad. I may nick it though.

[Jothki]

How exactly is leaving the field defined? Are you allowed to jump to the Ethereal plane? If not, are things like Blinking banned? Does teleporting your enemies out of the field knock them out of the game? How high are the fields, can you push people off the top or bottom of them?

[Welknair]

The system as a whole is pretty easily adaptable. You can use about any primary-caster in this. Heck, you can use just about any kind of caster. Even allowing for a non-caster or two for assistance. You can customize the competition quite a bit just with altering the allowed composition.

This is pretty obviously made for a High-Magic game (I seem to like those, even though I'm DMing a Moderate-Magic one...). Without large quantities of casters in the first place, this kind of competition could never take place.

Again at the adaptation thing - You could alter it such that Casters are each allowed to bring in a single "Lackey". This, in conjunction with allowing Divine Casters, would allow most adventuring parties to participate pretty readily. However, the focus should remain on the casters. Lackeys would be allowed an amount of magical armor and weaponry which would be drawn from the caster's budget. Perhaps you would want to double that budget for this modification, for better gear?

Edit: And that's what I get for being verbose. There's a large shimmering barrier that extends 10 miles up and down along the border. Said border is determined when the game is set (and is thus not randomly generated). Given that you can't teleport without going yourself, that'd be a bit of a kamikaze tactic, though viable... You can be forcibly removed from the arena and it does count as you leaving. However, due to the size of most arenas, this isn't a common occurrence. Traveling to coterminous planes is entirely allowed, and the previously mentioned border remains visible on these planes.

One of my other sub-systems was the Convention of Arcane Limitations, which basically is a restriction system for Arcane Casters. Using that background, this sport would have been founded by the group of Epic Wizards who laid those ground rules. As such, there's an incantation that any Arcane Casters can recite which summons forth an Arena, which is up to CLXCLX5ft on a side. Multiple casters may combine their CLs for the calling of this. This calling would also create the pedestals and scrolls. Target areas must be devoid of any life larger than Fine size, and may contain no magical items or effects. After the battle the field reverts to it's previous form.

[Jothki]

Given that you can't teleport without going yourself, that'd be a bit of a kamikaze tactic, though viable... You can be forcibly removed from the arena and it does count as you leaving.

Maze is a way of teleporting someone without going yourself, and there are probably others.

Edit: Whoa, just checked, and Maze has no immediate save. That's an instant 'kill' if you can target the opponent.

[Welknair]

Maze is a way of teleporting someone without going yourself, and there are probably others.

Point. Well, that's a fabricated plane so... it doesn't count? :smallconfused:

I wouldn't want to ban Maze and similar spells, but I also don't want them to automatically disqualify the subject.

[DragonSinged]

So, am I missing something, or is this just "Capture the Flag, but with Wizards"?

Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just wondering if there are some sort of hidden complexities I'm missing here. I'd figure that a sport for high-level wizards would have some more complicated and complex rules.

[Welknair]

In a nutshell, it is indeed "Capture the Flag". However, you'll notice a lack of "Tagging". Capture the Flag lends itself to a relatively simple simulation of a conflict without being centered around slaughtering the other team (which is frankly barbaric (The Barbarians would love to see this, however)).

With Upper Level Wizards this can get quite complex. There's a deal more than just running around slashing one another and taking a pointy stick. You have defenses to set up, summons to prepare, fortifications to raise, all the prior to destroy... Need it be more complicated? We're going for something to showcase a Wizard's talents, not to obfuscate it to such a point that no one but the participants can track what's going on.

Edit: On second thought, perhaps you should say that forcible removal from the playing area is prohibited, unless the target remains out of said area without any attempt to return within one minute. If they do attempt to do so, they are teleported back after a minute or at the end of the triggering spell's duration (The latter case is dominant and the matter of return is as normal). The result is that kamikaze-ports and Maze-ports don't count towards randomly disqualifying targets, but using Enchantment to force an opponent to forfeit does work.

[Yeturs]

I would like to say, I REALLY this idea. So much so, im using it for my next campaign.

In order to make it suit my players a little better, I have revised some of the rules.

These are the rules I am using



Dweomermass

The idea was that in an advanced civilization, there would eventually be a sport which would allow Wizards to display their skills without killing one another and with more intricacy than simply blasting each other to bits .

The Game:
There are two or more teams competing at once, each starting with a small stone pedestal with a scroll on it.

The standard is 5 participants to a team.

When a team has their scroll stolen and touched to another team's pedestal, the team that is now sans scroll is now out of the competition. So in the case of two teams, the first to capture the other team's scroll wins.

When a scroll is touched to a pedestal which it does not start at, there is a large light burst above, signaling the deed.

By casting Read Magic on the scroll, you know when it was last successfully touched to a pedestal (This is used for tie-breakers).

The fields vary greatly, from flat stone to lush forests to old ruins. All of these are generated randomly when the game starts. Field sizes range from 50 Feet Squared, to 5000 Feet Squared. The game itself goes until one team is left victorious. Depending upon the strength of the participants, these competitions can take a very long time.

There is always a five-minute prep period before the competition proper begins. During this time a Forcewall spans the middle of the arena.

Qualifications:
To qualify for dweomermass tournaments (and therefore to be allowed to play) you must have an arcane caster level equal to half your HD at all times. Feats that inflate your caster level do not count, not do class features. CL=base class arcane caster levels+prestige class levels that grant arcane or unnamed casting advancement.

Damage and Defeat:
Standard non-lethal competition rules hold. Force and Energy spells are pulled, dealing Nonlethal damage instead of lethal. Weapon like spells and conjurations, along with attacks from magic weapons, are altered in such a way as to deal only nonlethal damage.

Spells that cause death effects are altered to instead cause instant teleportation to the outside of the field.

Any spell that inflicts negative levels that have a chance of becoming permanent must similarly be pulled. This simply removes the chance of the levels becoming permanent.

Ability damage that drops you to zero in a score results in either paralysis or mental vegetableization. This includes constitution.

When your temporary hit points taken equal your max hit points+10, you are teleported out of the arena and cannot renter.

If a participant stands over an unconscious or immobile opponent and chants the Incantation of Defeat for a full minute, the opponent is teleported outside the nearest edge of the arena. During this minute, the opponent is woken up if they are naturally asleep, or are given an additional Will Save if otherwise compelled.

If any participants leave the area, they forfeit but their teams continue. You are not allowed to re-enter the arena.


Divisions, wealth, and Spellcasting alterations:
The Dweomermass has four divisions for various levels of Magus.

3-5: Novice
6-10: Adept
11-15: Advanced
16-20: Master
21+: Grandmaster

Participants are allowed basic robes, their spellbook (A spellbook. And it can't be a Boccob's Blessed Book), a single familiar (Or, on the off chance, an animal companion, but not both), a spell components pouch containing up to 2 pounds of materials (above mundane materials, ones that "eschew materials" would make irrelevant.), and a number of wands, staves, scrolls, and other magical equipment who's market values total no more than an amount based upon their division (1.5k, 7.5k, 15k, or 37k, respectively).


DM note:These numbers are subject to change, if all teams playing the game agree upon such a change. They can never be lower then these base values, however.

Any spells that cause troubles (like maze) have been altered in such a way to not cause grief.

They have been changed, but the alterations made are so buried in the game rules no one knows how it will work until it goes off.


DM note:This gives me breathing room, with all the spells out there working in unique ways with each other

Other Rules and Regulations:
There's a large shimmering barrier that extends 10 miles up and down along the border. Said border is determined when the game is set. You can be forcibly removed from the arena and it does count as you leaving. However, due to the size of most arenas, this isn't a common occurrence. Traveling to coterminous planes is entirely allowed, and the previously mentioned border remains visible on these planes.

Spells function normally outside of the game of Dweomermass. However, using harmful spells outside of a game is illegal.

If the battle goes on long, food and water are conjured for each participant thrice a day.

Specially marked Arcane Eyes float above the arena, conveying their information to large Major Images for the pleasure of the audience.







Anything I changed that's too drastic? Im not sure how it would work for the rest of those interested, but I know my group loves it.

The campaign world is of my own device, sort or like a sports league, where Dweomermass is the sport. My campaign is starting at level three, and the only combat ever in in the context of the game.

[Sacrieur]

First wizard to cast time stop wins.

[Jothki]

You didn't put in protection against Maze, either to ban it or say that it (and I guess non-dimensional spaces like bags of holding or the like) don't count as leaving the area.

Maze has no save against the teleportation effect, so that's critical.

[Welknair]

You didn't put in protection against Maze, either to ban it or say that it (and I guess non-dimensional spaces like bags of holding or the like) don't count as leaving the area.

Maze has no save against the teleportation effect, so that's critical.


On second thought, perhaps you could say that forcible removal from the playing area is prohibited, unless the target remains out of said area without any attempt to return within one minute. If they do attempt to do so, they are teleported back after a minute or at the end of the triggering spell's duration (The latter case is dominant and the matter of return is as normal). The result is that kamikaze-ports and Maze-ports don't count towards randomly disqualifying targets, but using Enchantment to force an opponent to forfeit does work.

...

And Yeturs, that looks quite good. I realize that each group would have their own preferences and as such the game's mechanics are quite easy to swap up as you did there. I'd like to hear how it goes. My players will be participating in a "Tournament Arcane" in my world soon, and I intend to use this game as a focal point. As such, any prior information as to how it's likely to play out could be useful.

[VirOath]

Why do I see a Belt Of Battle and movement magic just flat out winning the game? Done right, you could cross most fields and back with the scroll in hand on your turn.

The objective isn't to blast people to bits after all. Improved Init would actually be very good here.

[Welknair]

Well I'd assume that they'd have some sort of defense set up in those first five minutes to prevent some guy just running (or porting) in to take the scroll. But yes, speed and reaction time become quite important, especially when you're dealing with upper-level spells.

[The Rabbler]

Why do I see a Belt Of Battle and movement magic just flat out winning the game? Done right, you could cross most fields and back with the scroll in hand on your turn.

The objective isn't to blast people to bits after all. Improved Init would actually be very good here.

What you want is a specialist conjurer wizard (with abrupt jaunt) with greater invisibility, a belt of battle, and a crusader cohort. Two "go again"s and instant teleportation would get your wizard to the scroll and back pretty quickly.

[Welknair]

What you want is a specialist conjurer wizard (with abrupt jaunt) with greater invisibility, a belt of battle, and a crusader cohort. Two "go again"s and instant teleportation would get your wizard to the scroll and back pretty quickly.

I'd make sure that somebody on my team cast Dimension Lock on our scroll. Teleportation tricks like that would be one of the first things people would try, and as such would be one of the first things people would think to defend against. Hmm. At lower levels, you would likely have somebody (or a summoned monster) standing guard with a readied action to attack anyone on the enemy team who teleports within attacking range. "Ah ha! The scroll's right--- AAAH CELESTIAL DOG EATING MY ARM".

Hmm, the invisibility is still a problem though. Perhaps have a dust cloud in the area? :smallconfused: The aforementioned dog would have scent, but wouldn't be able to find the target fast enough...

[VirOath]

I'd make sure that somebody on my team cast Dimension Lock on our scroll. Teleportation tricks like that would be one of the first things people would try, and as such would be one of the first things people would think to defend against. Hmm. At lower levels, you would likely have somebody (or a summoned monster) standing guard with a readied action to attack anyone on the enemy team who teleports within attacking range. "Ah ha! The scroll's right--- AAAH CELESTIAL DOG EATING MY ARM".

Hmm, the invisibility is still a problem though. Perhaps have a dust cloud in the area? :smallconfused: The aforementioned dog would have scent, but wouldn't be able to find the target fast enough...

1st level spell, Expeditious Retreat, adds 30 ft to your base movement. A choker from ToM can give you the Dark Template, adding to your move speed further. Toss in the run feat for good measure.

Assuming Dim Lock on the scroll, the person that grabs it can still run 300 ft per full round action assuming a 60 ft move speed (easy to get). White Raven Tactics gave give them a full round run, so can the Belt of Battle.

At this point the flag runner just needs to be willing to take a hit or two. Being that in many objective based games I like to find a way to royally abuse the objective, this is actually fun. And the thought of a person running down the field at 60+ KPH per full round action is just amusing, right to the point of Anime.

[The Rabbler]

1st level spell, Expeditious Retreat, adds 30 ft to your base movement. A choker from ToM can give you the Dark Template, adding to your move speed further. Toss in the run feat for good measure.

Assuming Dim Lock on the scroll, the person that grabs it can still run 300 ft per full round action assuming a 60 ft move speed (easy to get). White Raven Tactics gave give them a full round run, so can the Belt of Battle.

At this point the flag runner just needs to be willing to take a hit or two. Being that in many objective based games I like to find a way to royally abuse the objective, this is actually fun. And the thought of a person running down the field at 60+ KPH per full round action is just amusing, right to the point of Anime.

To play devil's advocate: this also completely depends on how big the field is. If the the field is 50x50, you only need to move a little more than 70' (pythagorean) or 75' (D&D diagonal rules) and back to grab the scroll. If the field is 5000x5000 though, you need to move thousands of feet and back before the enemy can take a turn or else you're in for a world of hurt. And White Raven Tactics isn't available until level 9 for that cohort, so you'd be in the Advanced bracket.

EDIT: And there's no reason a spellcaster can't simply put up a wall of iron in the way before you get even close.

[Welknair]

So these are actually the kinds of things that you could expect from participants. When you have access to these tools, of course you're going to try to use them. Then the challenge is how does one attempt to defend against these measures? For that... Perhaps the aforementioned readying of an action, but reading Daze-- Crud. Will save. Hmm. There's a spell that dazes the target and allows a fort save, right?

Common defenses that I'd imagine people using:
Dimension Lock
Wall spells
AMF
Guards (Whether team members or summons)

[VirOath]

You give five minutes of prep time, but the problem is a wizard has means to defeat a wall or defensive lock before that lock comes into play. At the lower levels, without insanely large fields, it becomes a matter of who goes first.

The stage should be set to be more than just a grab and run. Like the scroll is in a box that has to be unlocked, and the keys are magical to the point that they always ping themselves on the field.

That adds so much more. Sure, a Knock spell could break it, or shatter, but now you are adding another spell into the rotation so you break the instant grab and run on a single turn.

[Welknair]

Hmm. You have a point. I'll consider some additional twists like that...

[Yeturs]

Right on, I'll let you know how it goes. My groups not huge into exploiting the mechanics of the game, like the speed thing is. But I will let you know of any instant wins they come up with, even though I've implemented rules to allow me to retcon instawins out :P

(By game, I mean dweomermass, not dnd.)

My group is playing this in about a week starting at third level. I'll post how it goes, and thanks again for the great idea!

[WildPyre]

I love putting games like this in my setting. I currently have a goblin sport called "Sklunk", but no mechanics for actually playing it... I suppose disarm attempts for stripping the ball would work, not sure how exactly to determine making baskets aside from ranged attack rolls...

[The Rabbler]

So these are actually the kinds of things that you could expect from participants. When you have access to these tools, of course you're going to try to use them. Then the challenge is how does one attempt to defend against these measures? For that... Perhaps the aforementioned readying of an action, but reading Daze-- Crud. Will save. Hmm. There's a spell that dazes the target and allows a fort save, right?

orb of fire dazes with a fort save.



Common defenses that I'd imagine people using:
Dimension Lock
Wall spells
AMF
Guards (Whether team members or summons)

I would disallow AMF, as it completely negates the purpose of a wizard's contest. Imagine an ubercharger with a continuous item of antimagic field. K.O. their entire team and you win. Every single time. If the ubercharger is built right, you can even down multiple targets in a single round.

[Fable Wright]

I would disallow AMF, as it completely negates the purpose of a wizard's contest. Imagine an ubercharger with a continuous item of antimagic field. K.O. their entire team and you win. Every single time. If the ubercharger is built right, you can even down multiple targets in a single round.

Item of AMF is affected by AMF = ?

Regardless, there's always things like the Orb spells to prevent that, along with flying wizards. If he tries to take it, the entire team bolts him to death. Or readies an action to put a wall of iron right outside the range of the antimagic field while he's on the path to charge into it. And/or the scroll is in the air. Regardless, without the item, the AMFs would fit in surprisingly well. They have to be placed correctly, or else you nerf yourself with them, and the other team can use that for their advantage... it could actually work fairly well.

[VirOath]

Item of AMF is affected by AMF = ?

Regardless, there's always things like the Orb spells to prevent that, along with flying wizards. If he tries to take it, the entire team bolts him to death. Or readies an action to put a wall of iron right outside the range of the antimagic field while he's on the path to charge into it. And/or the scroll is in the air. Regardless, without the item, the AMFs would fit in surprisingly well. They have to be placed correctly, or else you nerf yourself with them, and the other team can use that for their advantage... it could actually work fairly well.

Runescarred barbarian gets to create an anti-magic field around himself. Being a dwarf would let you double dip into Con for AC, and there are a few more dips and tricks to get your AC high enough without magic that a wizard couldn't hope to hit your AC.

And AMF the spell is centered on the caster. So you could have it centered on familiars, but that's about it. Unless you have it in an item then it's going to be on someone, and familiars are open game.

And an item of AMF works by casting the spell itself, turning the item into the caster. It's not continuous, so the item works just as if a wizard cast the spell. After all, a Wizard casting AMF doesn't suppress the same spell, and AMF only ever suppresses, never removes. Making this continuous would mean it's recasted the moment it isn't suppressed at the caster level of the item, renewing the spell and suppressing the item once again. At most meaning that during the turn of the item's creation, once every (Caster Level) passes, magic isn't suppressed for that number on the init scale.

My vote is to completely remove the spell. AMF is banned, it's a magic duel and a challenge of the minds and tactics, not how can you get an IWIN button.

[Sacrieur]

Yes, AMF is most certainly banned. Since that would mean someone would put up an AMF and then use prismatic sphere to protect their trophy thing.

And don't forget these are wizards. As much as we would all love to see a bunch of female sorcerers wrestle in a mudpit, watching a bunch of wizards do the same is not quite so interesting.

[VirOath]

Yes, AMF is most certainly banned. Since that would mean someone would put up an AMF and then use prismatic sphere to protect their trophy thing.

Actually, doesn't work. You can't cast an Prismatic Sphere in an AMF, and the Sphere blocks line of effect for the AMF. So the source would have to be outside, and you would need more than one. One counters the passing of the other, but they also counter each other in setup as well.

Besides, Cheaters Of Mystra wouldn't be impeded at all anyways, they are allowed to cast spells inside an AMF if they meet the cost.

Not that would really come up much, most gameplay for this isn't high end anyways since it is about teams and leagues. Harder to find Wiz 20 than it is to find Wiz 5.

[Sacrieur]

Actually, doesn't work. You can't cast an Prismatic Sphere in an AMF, and the Sphere blocks line of effect for the AMF. So the source would have to be outside, and you would need more than one. One counters the passing of the other, but they also counter each other in setup as well.

Besides, Cheaters Of Mystra wouldn't be impeded at all anyways, they are allowed to cast spells inside an AMF if they meet the cost.

Not that would really come up much, most gameplay for this isn't high end anyways since it is about teams and leagues. Harder to find Wiz 20 than it is to find Wiz 5.

AMF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) explicitly states that it has no effect on Prismatic Sphere. And I wasn't aware that AMF used a line of effect...

[Goonthegoof]

Why don't we test it out? This is exactly the kind of thing that would work for PBP.

[Sacrieur]

Why don't we test it out? This is exactly the kind of thing that would work for PBP.

Sounds good to me.

What level are we going to play?

[VirOath]

AMF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) explicitly states that it has no effect on Prismatic Sphere. And I wasn't aware that AMF used a line of effect...

The first point is true, but the effect of the spell has to actually go off, the center of the spell for any area spell cannot be inside an AMF for this purpose.

That is because a spell isn't that exact spell until it is finished casting, a partially cast spell fails and fizzles.

To put this in an analogy, AMF is the whiteout of the magic world. Once the Prismatic Sphere is written into the pages of the universe it is immune to AMF, but trying to write that page inside an active AMF blots out the words as they are written, before they are whole and complete to gain that immunity.

To say that an AMF does nothing to a person trying to cast Prismatic Sphere is to say that Golems have Magic Immunity -during- their creation process, before they are complete.

AMF can do nothing to a Prismatic Sphere, but it can stop the source of it from making one.


And the second issue is that any area spell needs to draw a line of effect to it's targeted square. Prismatic Wall blocks spells, so an AMF can't push through one, but it can around one. This means that the AMF can't affect the outside world if it is inside a Prismatic Sphere, and the size of the two spells keeps them from getting the perfect coverage needed to have a Prismatic Sphere inside the coverage of a single AMF. And even if you could, the source of the AMF would have to be outside of the protection of the sphere. Both are a 10 feet radius, centered on the caster.

[Sacrieur]

The first point is true, but the effect of the spell has to actually go off, the center of the spell for any area spell cannot be inside an AMF for this purpose.

That is because a spell isn't that exact spell until it is finished casting, a partially cast spell fails and fizzles.

To put this in an analogy, AMF is the whiteout of the magic world. Once the Prismatic Sphere is written into the pages of the universe it is immune to AMF, but trying to write that page inside an active AMF blots out the words as they are written, before they are whole and complete to gain that immunity.

To say that an AMF does nothing to a person trying to cast Prismatic Sphere is to say that Golems have Magic Immunity -during- their creation process, before they are complete.

AMF can do nothing to a Prismatic Sphere, but it can stop the source of it from making one.


And the second issue is that any area spell needs to draw a line of effect to it's targeted square. Prismatic Wall blocks spells, so an AMF can't push through one, but it can around one. This means that the AMF can't affect the outside world if it is inside a Prismatic Sphere, and the size of the two spells keeps them from getting the perfect coverage needed to have a Prismatic Sphere inside the coverage of a single AMF. And even if you could, the source of the AMF would have to be outside of the protection of the sphere. Both are a 10 feet radius, centered on the caster.

Then how about 2 AMF, each outside of the the prismatic sphere, and on either side. It would fully cover the outside of the sphere. Then, on the inside, fill it with cloudkill + dimensional anchor. Would work right?

[Welknair]

Sounds good to me.

What level are we going to play?

Hmm. Sounds interesting. Given that we don't have too many posters here, would we be having just a couple each playing for a team of five? And may I suggest level 12 characters?


Then how about 2 AMF, each outside of the the prismatic sphere, and on either side. It would fully cover the outside of the sphere. Then, on the inside, fill it with cloudkill + dimensional anchor. Would work right?

Using Cloudkill may be a bit risky... You need to get to the pedestal yourself. You could have your team dispel the Cloudkill so you could reach the pedestal, but if you were being pursued...

There's also the issue of hiding the scroll. Is a team allowed to move their own scroll? Must they move their pedestal as well? Perhaps the pedestals are in slightly different positions, despite the map being symmetrical in all other ways?

Oh, and if we get enough participants for the PBP, I'd love to give the set-up. I'd say perhaps two teams of two posters, each poster controlling two or three characters? And would we be using my previously mentioned Spell Shield?

[VirOath]

Well right now I'm in this for the pure theory and tactics, trying to round out bumps before they make it to practical play. So much of getting things right is getting them flattened before they hit the table (or in this case, boards)

And, I find myself too distracted to play PBP. It needs to be in a realtime media for me, and even then I find casters boring because of the simple encouragement to look at the character sheet for an answer which can leave me feeling hampered on free thinking.

The two AMFs on either side would work, but it's not invincible. It's cast by an item or a caster, and either way it's a nice little bubble where the wizard is little more than an old man, while a charger teammate designed for it can hit the source of the AMF and knock it out.

And unless you use items, two AMFs will locks down two casters, one caster would have to stay at the Sphere to make use of it. And the bad thing is if someone has the saves and abilities, Prismatic Wall is one of the few wall spells you are allowed to walk right through, you just have to suck up all of the harmful effects.

But, a Dimensional Lock on the scroll, then covered in a block of lead or something similar by Creation would do quite well, the block would have to be burned first.

And I strongly advise against asymmetrical placements of the flags on symmetrical maps, doing so could leave one team's flag closer to the contested midfield and give the other a tactical advantage by virtue terrain before the match is even booked. Having them reversed or quarter flipped is all well and done, but for the sake of a tactical game, both sides have to start even.

[Welknair]

Using the AMF fields would also hinder summoned guards...

Well, if there were to be asymmetrical scroll placement, they would still be equidistant from the mid-field...

[Sacrieur]

Leave AMF in and see how it goes.

[Chess435]

1. Cast Dimension Lock on scroll
2. Cast Prismatic Sphere while standing next to scroll
3. Cast AMF
4. Leave Sphere
5. ????
6. Profit!

Remember that a caster is immune to their own prismatic sphere and therefore doesn't have to worry about LoE. It'd take a lucky disjuction to drop the whole thing!