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Griffin
2011-03-15, 05:59 PM
I have a question regarding improvised weapons (sorry if the tread doesn't belong to this section, first time around)

The question is:

Supose we cut a spear, leaving only the tip and a part of the wooden part to act as the grip, then we wrap with cloth the wooden part we left, making the tip and the wood with cloth the size of a normal dagger, will this "weapon" work as a normal dagger or as an improvised weapon?

My guessing:

I'm guessing it should work as a dagger, because, according to the definition of improvised weapon that you can find in the book: objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat, the tip of the spear was crafted to be used in combat, it can pierce, it has been sharpened, unlike a chair or table that can be used as bashing weapons and do count as improvised weapons, altough I think the dmg roll for this dagger of sorts shouldn't be that of the spear, but that as the normal dagger d4 dice

Any toughs?

Thank you

Shademan
2011-03-15, 06:02 PM
cant speak for other DM's, but I think I would allow it. I like smarmyness like that.
'course, the dagger would be easily sundered...

Griffin
2011-03-15, 06:04 PM
cant speak for other DM's, but I think I would allow it. I like smarmyness like that.
'course, the dagger would be easily sundered...

of course, its not made to last, rather to get you out of your present trouble

Shademan
2011-03-15, 06:06 PM
of course, its not made to last, rather to get you out of your present trouble

exactly, which is why I'd allow it.
but I tend to power up imrpovised weapons as well, if I'm running a urban campaign anyhow

John Campbell
2011-03-15, 06:53 PM
That's still an improvised weapon. Spears are intended to be used in combat, but they're intended to be used in combat as spears, not to be cut apart and used as improvised daggers. The blade profile's all wrong, the balance is probably off, the grip kind of sucks, it may not have any guard at all...

I'd give it dagger stats, but maybe without the expanded crit range, and you'd still be taking the improvised weapon penalty.

And if you wanted to put the effort into it, you could use a spear for raw materials to Craft a dagger, and once you'd put in enough Crafting time, it'd stop being an improvised dagger improvised from a spear, and start being just a dagger that used to be a spear. But that's more work than just five minutes with a hacksaw.

Thurbane
2011-03-15, 08:31 PM
There was a character in one of the David Eddings books that used a "sawed off" halberd or poleax as his main weapon, mainly for the intimidation factor.

FlyingScanian
2011-03-16, 12:46 AM
There was a character in one of the David Eddings books that used a "sawed off" halberd or poleax as his main weapon, mainly for the intimidation factor.

A) It was in a book :smalltongue:
B) It was a Lochaber axe
C) At least I got the impression that some thought went into "cutting it down", just to keep it useable (and still darn scary), it was not just a saw taken to the haft at a random place.

Toofey
2011-03-16, 12:53 AM
I think most DM's would really like the idea if it happened in a fight, and would really not like it if they have a specific plot reason for restricting weapons. If the Dm objects you may want to just concede the point for the sake of the narrative.

Thurbane
2011-03-16, 01:08 AM
A) It was in a book :smalltongue:
B) It was a Lochaber axe
C) At least I got the impression that some thought went into "cutting it down", just to keep it useable (and still darn scary), it was not just a saw taken to the haft at a random place.
...been a few years since I read it. With the amount of fantasy novels I've read in 30 years, they all sorta roll into one a bit.

So...um, yeah? Not sure I get point A).

Jack Zander
2011-03-16, 01:24 AM
Supose we cut a spear, leaving only the tip and a part of the wooden part to act as the grip, then we wrap with cloth the wooden part we left, making the tip and the wood with cloth the size of a normal dagger, will this "weapon" work as a normal dagger or as an improvised weapon?

For me, it would entirely depend on the reasoning and the situation. For most characters, turning a spear into a dagger is already penalty enough, we don't have to make the dagger suck even worse. However, for characters that specifically rock in combat with daggers but suck with spears, we have to look at the situation they were placed in. If I placed them in a jailbreak setting and each player was able to acquire spears because I wanted them to think outside the box for an encounter or two with weapons that restrict their class abilities or fighting styles, then allowing the one player to overcome this restriction breaks the encounter that I made to be balanced against a gimped party.

Lyndworm
2011-03-16, 01:29 AM
For me, it would entirely depend on the reasoning and the situation. For most characters, turning a spear into a dagger is already penalty enough, we don't have to make the dagger suck even worse. However, for characters that specifically rock in combat with daggers but suck with spears, we have to look at the situation they were placed in. If I placed them in a jailbreak setting and each player was able to acquire spears because I wanted them to think outside the box for an encounter or two with weapons that restrict their class abilities or fighting styles, then allowing the one player to overcome this restriction breaks the encounter that I made to be balanced against a gimped party.

Yes... but you're also punishing the character for thinking outside the box into which you placed him, which was your goal anyway. I get that you're not so much penalizing as not helping, but still... it seems sort of contradictory, to me.

Jack Zander
2011-03-16, 01:35 AM
Yes... but you're also punishing the character for thinking outside the box into which you placed him, which was your goal anyway. I get that you're not so much penalizing as not helping, but still... it seems sort of contradictory, to me.

I dunno, while turning your spear into a dagger is creative thinking, it still doesn't show me you are capable of playing your build any differently than it was intended.

Zeful
2011-03-17, 03:17 PM
I dunno, while turning your spear into a dagger is creative thinking, it still doesn't show me you are capable of playing your build any differently than it was intended.

That's simply disingenuous. Why would anyone that skilled in the use of anything bother trying to "play their build" any differently than intended in a life and death situation? It's one thing to put players in a situation where creatively using their skills allows victory, it's another to go "Lol, you don't have any of your stuff and not allowed to use anything resembling what you're specced for" which you seem to be doing.

John Campbell
2011-03-17, 03:49 PM
I don't even see how "thinking outside the box" or "playing your build differently" are even relevant. You improvised a weapon. Therefore, it's an improvised weapon. It works like an improvised weapon.

OverThoughtName
2011-03-17, 04:36 PM
At the very least, I would let them roll for reducing the penalty associated with improvised weapons, maybe with modifiers on the roll depending on how rushed they were in making it. I've always thought of improvised weapons as "Random Object A" instead of more makeshift examples, like grabbing a particularly sharp rock and trying to stab someone instead of the situation proposed above.

Jack Zander
2011-03-17, 11:46 PM
"Lol, you don't have any of your stuff and not allowed to use anything resembling what you're specced for"

Yeah, this is pretty much it. Someone's gotta take the tricks away from a one-trick pony every now and then. Its cool that your spike chain fighter is invincible when he's got his precious custom made magically enhanced weapon. Now show me what he can do when he fights like regular folk.

Han Solo had never lost a blaster duel and as such it started getting boring watching him fire at stormtroopers in hallways after a while, but when he had to grapple that scout trooper on Endor's moon, the fight became more interesting to watch since this was obviously an area that he was not specialized in. Sure, we know he's gonna win cuz the scout trooper was still just some mook, but its nice to see that he is capable of holding his own in a different situation than he is used to when the time is needed.


I don't even see how "thinking outside the box" or "playing your build differently" are even relevant. You improvised a weapon. Therefore, it's an improvised weapon. It works like an improvised weapon.

The only problem I have with this is that players have no reason to break their spear down into a dagger now. They are just better off keeping the spear and finding something else to use instead. I would like to reward players who think creatively. Example: The party enters a dungeon where they quickly learn that a vast majority of the encounters will be using grapple attacks. Not being a fan of "weakling" weapons, the barbarian was not prepared with anything small enough to be used in a grapple. Then he decides to break the tip off of the spear of a fallen enemy and use that as a dagger. I'd allow him to use it without penalty for at least a few encounters before it breaks or whatnot, just to reward his creativity.

John Campbell
2011-03-18, 01:17 AM
The only problem I have with this is that players have no reason to break their spear down into a dagger now. They are just better off keeping the spear and finding something else to use instead.
Yes. That's because breaking a perfectly good spear to make a lousy dagger is a bad idea, unless don't have a dagger, and you really need one for something that you can't use a spear for. In which case, having the dagger, even if it is kind of a poor one, is plenty of reason by itself.


I would like to reward players who think creatively. Example: The party enters a dungeon where they quickly learn that a vast majority of the encounters will be using grapple attacks. Not being a fan of "weakling" weapons, the barbarian was not prepared with anything small enough to be used in a grapple. Then he decides to break the tip off of the spear of a fallen enemy and use that as a dagger. I'd allow him to use it without penalty for at least a few encounters before it breaks or whatnot, just to reward his creativity.
His reward is that now he has a weapon that he can use in a grapple, even if it is a poor improvised one. Why should he get the same reward as the guy who was smart enough to just bring a dagger?

(What is up with characters not carrying backup weapons, anyway? My characters have specialties, but in addition to their ludicrously blinged-out primary weapon, they'll carry a decent ranged weapon (or melee weapon, if their primary is ranged), and a dagger, for tight spots and just eating dinner, and usually a couple other this and that for whatever purpose. Yet I keep seeing people get rendered completely useless because they got disarmed of their primary - only! - weapon, or put into a situation where it's no good (Melee monster vs. flying thing! Archer vs. melee monster in a phone booth! Primary caster in the monster's belly!), and it never occurred to them to drop the 2 gp to get a dagger, or pick up a completely free sling, so that maybe they can at least contribute a little in situations where their one trick doesn't work.)