Grey Guard?

[byaku rai]

Just need a bit of help finding it. Thinking about playing my next character as a paladin, and I heard Grey Guard was an awesome prestige class for that, but I can't seem to find it in my collection. I know it's a stupid question. :smallyuk: Thanks in advance!

[Rethmar]

It's in the Complete Scoundrel. :)

[byaku rai]

... *facepalm* of course. the one and only Complete I don't have. *grumblegrumblegrumble* Thank you very much, kind sir.:smallbiggrin:

[Pigkappa]

Since the question was answered and I need some help with a Grey Guard, I'll use this topic without opening a new one :P .


I'm DMing and the Paladin wants to become a Grey Guard. Since this PrC's fluff sounds nice to me (and it would fit nice in the party), I agreed, but the PC has to join the Grey Guards' order to join them.

We agreed that he's heard about these people and will eventually ask one of his superiors (named Maurizio) about this, so this will result in a (short and easy) quest and I need to know if the quest sounds appropriate to you.

Maurizio does know who the leader of the Grey Guards is, but his identity is kept secret because he's infiltrated in the local thieves' guild.
After a couple of days, Maurizio gives the player the following mission: he has to gain the trust of the local thieves' guild, and of course give him the contact of a renowned thief.

The thief is of course doubtful about the paladin's intentions (particularly if they meet when he's wearing full armor and spamming Detect Evil), and asks him to steal a golden statue of Heironeus from the local temple. The statue is protected with a few locks (so that the rest of the party isn't 100% useless...) and a trap which triggers if it's touched by someone who is not LG (and deals 9d6 damage, Reflex DC 19 half, which can be kinda dangerous for a level 5 party, and then teleports the statue to a safer location).

Maurizio doesn't really know what the thieves can ask the paladin to do. If the player thinks that this is a trick and he shouldn't steal the statue, he let his being lawful be more important than his quest and this is the opposite of what defines a Grey Guard, so he fails.

[FMArthur]

It's not even that great. Its ability progression is pretty much "Paladin, but the DM now has to go this far to totally hose you for his poorly thought-out reasons".

[Pigkappa]

Yeah, ok, that's from a mechanical point of view.

Fluff exists, too.

[FMArthur]

What fluff? "These Paladins are not retarded?" That's not exactly important roleplaying information.

[Zonugal]

Since the question was answered and I need some help with a Grey Guard, I'll use this topic without opening a new one :P .


I'm DMing and the Paladin wants to become a Grey Guard. Since this PrC's fluff sounds nice to me (and it would fit nice in the party), I agreed, but the PC has to join the Grey Guards' order to join them.

We agreed that he's heard about these people and will eventually ask one of his superiors (named Maurizio) about this, so this will result in a (short and easy) quest and I need to know if the quest sounds appropriate to you.

Maurizio does know who the leader of the Grey Guards is, but his identity is kept secret because he's infiltrated in the local thieves' guild.
After a couple of days, Maurizio gives the player the following mission: he has to gain the trust of the local thieves' guild, and of course give him the contact of a renowned thief.

The thief is of course doubtful about the paladin's intentions (particularly if they meet when he's wearing full armor and spamming Detect Evil), and asks him to steal a golden statue of Heironeus from the local temple. The statue is protected with a few locks (so that the rest of the party isn't 100% useless...) and a trap which triggers if it's touched by someone who is not LG (and deals 9d6 damage, Reflex DC 19 half, which can be kinda dangerous for a level 5 party, and then teleports the statue to a safer location).

Maurizio doesn't really know what the thieves can ask the paladin to do. If the player thinks that this is a trick and he shouldn't steal the statue, he let his being lawful be more important than his quest and this is the opposite of what defines a Grey Guard, so he fails.

I think that is perhaps a little too easy from a mechanical and flavor standpoint. How about you run him through the entire Training Day sequence? Booze, drugs, beating people up for protection money? If you want to get him use to the life of the Grey Guard yo should shove him into the criminal world.

[Pigkappa]

It makes sense that Paladins do have to follow a strict code of conduct, involving both being Good and having a strong sense of honor, loyalty and the such. It's kinda annoying for some people, because this way your Paladin can't do "whatever I want except murdering children", but it's an interesting roleplaying opportunity.

And in such a world, it's also interesting to have a small group of people who are associated with these Paladins, but consider acceptable to get their hands dirty when it's necessary for the greater Good.



How about you run him through the entire Training Day sequence? Booze, drugs, beating people up for protection money?

Can you elaborate?

[sonofzeal]

Or, put him straight to work.

The Order has captured an evil minion, and need to foil the main villain. They don't want to take things to authorities because the authorities might be involved. But the minion isn't talking. They need someone who can torture the information out of the bastard, but the can't go outside the Order for security reasons. So they need someone inside the Order to torture him. Except torture's banned by the Paladin Code.

Enter the PC. He has to convincingly RP a torture scene, falls (because he isn't a Grey Guard yet), and has an atonement and induction into Grey Guard waiting for him when he's done.

This can then tie into a sideplot to actually stop whatever villainous plan the information was for in the first place.

[The Glyphstone]

I think that is perhaps a little too easy from a mechanical and flavor standpoint. How about you run him through the entire Training Day sequence? Booze, drugs, beating people up for protection money? If you want to get him use to the life of the Grey Guard yo should shove him into the criminal world.

The problem is that you don't get the loosened Code until you become a Grayguard, so your solution would have the paladin Fall before he qualified.:smallcool:

[Zonugal]

The problem is that you don't get the loosened Code until you become a Grayguard, so your solution would have the paladin Fall before he qualified.:smallcool:

Atonement?

[Pigkappa]

The problem is that you don't get the loosened Code until you become a Grayguard, so your solution would have the paladin Fall before he qualified.:smallcool:

I wouldn't make him fall for facing a quest to enter a PrC which makes it harder to fall :smallconfused:. Screw the rules-as-written...



They need someone who can torture the information out of the bastard, but the can't go outside the Order for security reasons. So they need someone inside the Order to torture him.

Yeah but since there are already some Gray Guards, this sounds like something they would handle instead of asking a new recruit to do this...
They don't really need him to do something (because he could screw it up), they just need to see if he's fit for the order.

Also, I'm planning to start Ravenloft (and already know how to involve the group in that adventure) as soon as possible, so I'd like to make something short and simple :smalltongue:.

[sonofzeal]

Yeah but since there are already some Gray Guards, this sounds like something they would handle instead of asking a new recruit to do this...
They don't really need him to do something (because he could screw it up), they just need to see if he's fit for the order.

Also, I'm planning to start Ravenloft (and already know how to involve the group in that adventure) as soon as possible, so I'd like to make something short and simple :smalltongue:.
A Paladin Order wouldn't ever induct new Grey Guards just because one of their members want it. It's something only undertaken under dire need, when conventional Paladin methods are failing and the cost for failure is too high. They need him. And they need him badly enough to risk sullying one of their shining innocent children.

There are only ever a bare minimum of Grey Guard, and the others are busy. Bam, problem solved. =P

[Lord.Sorasen]

Maurizio does know who the leader of the Grey Guards is, but his identity is kept secret because he's infiltrated in the local thieves' guild.

After a couple of days, Maurizio gives the player the following mission: he has to gain the trust of the local thieves' guild, and of course give him the contact of a renowned thief.

The thief is of course doubtful about the paladin's intentions (particularly if they meet when he's wearing full armor and spamming Detect Evil), and asks him to steal a golden statue of Heironeus from the local temple. The statue is protected with a few locks (so that the rest of the party isn't 100% useless...) and a trap which triggers if it's touched by someone who is not LG (and deals 9d6 damage, Reflex DC 19 half, which can be kinda dangerous for a level 5 party, and then teleports the statue to a safer location).

Maurizio doesn't really know what the thieves can ask the paladin to do. If the player thinks that this is a trick and he shouldn't steal the statue, he let his being lawful be more important than his quest and this is the opposite of what defines a Grey Guard, so he fails.

For the sake of fluff, I should mention:


Nevertheless, if you commit unforgivably evil acts (such as slaughtering innocents or despoiling a temple of your faith) . . . you risk permanent expulsion from the holy order.

Technically, Grey Guards can't steal from their Gods, even for the Mission. Of course, you can hand-waive this, but it's worth noting.

I'm also not too fond of the idea of a Grey Guard blindly following orders to commit what is considered an evil act. I would far rather see a Grey Guard forge the relic and present the fake. A Grey Guard uses tactics considered evil, but he doesn't commit evil. He backstabs, he kills people who may not be truly evil, he interrogates and manipulates, but it's hard to see a Grey Guard actually betray his God, even if for his god. Especially if he doesn't know the real reason why.

Though of course, it's all up to you.

[Zonugal]

I would just present it like any undercover police officer being initiated into a criminal organization/enterprise. It shouldn't be about testing them with a single obstacle but assaulting them with a corrupting and vile lifestyle.

[sonofzeal]

I would really hit the ethical dilemma side hard. Playing a Grey Guard should be an exercise in tortured conscience. A Grey Guard isn't like Rorschach, committing crimes remorselessly because he fully believes himself justified in them. A Grey Guard is like the Operative from Serenity, who is keenly aware of just how terrible his deeds are, and who never really forgives himself for them even as he commits more. A Grey Guard should hate himself for the things he's done, even though he believes they were necessary.

How you get to that state is up to you. Torture is a good way, especially of the torturee is sympathetic. He doesn't have to be a vile scumbag, he just has to know something you need, and can't be convinced to talk any other way. Even better is if the guy won't talk out of a code of honour, he won't betray his friends, even though he knows his friends do evil things. RP it well, and by the time the (ex) Paladin character leaves the room, he really will be a Grey Guard, with or without the PrC.

Whichever way, get him to do something a Paladin would never forgive himself for, and then give him the PrC as a consolation prize. Heck, make the PrC more powerful, make it really tasty from an optimization perspective. But make it ashes in his mouth, for the character.

Grey Guard is an RP class. Make the player RP for it.

[Cerlis]

I agree with what someone said about it not being a big orginization. it should be a small group. like an special force, maybe even one teacher, old gruff vet, who teaches him. Most members of the church wouldnt look fondly at a grey guard, so it wouldnt be that big or supported.

The second thing, is motivation. what does the teacher want to teach his student.
everyone has touched on the obvious. Doing things you have to do for good, even if they are unpleasant.
But i dont think we put as much emphasis on him teaching the PC about NOT doing it.

Before they give officers a stun gun, they have to test it out themselves, so they know what its like.

I have this image of three things
-a situation in which he is has to stop someone but he hurts himself as well. whether its a straight out duel, or a detective game of tag, everytime he hits someone (probably best for this to all be unarmed or with sticks) he feels the pain too. Takes the subdual damage equivelant. His teacher wants to teach him that if he is going to go to far, that he needs to know what he will put others through.
-the second is humiliation. whether his teacher digs up something about his past, or tricks him into a situation in which he looks like an incompitent fool in front of many, he needs to know what its like to be humiliated. To be strung up before a people and laughed at and looked down upon. How he will make each prisoner feel when he drags them into jail, or each witness or accompliss he harasses will feel like. Having a city guard come up to you and ask you about your dark dealings in public can ruin a man in a town, and he risks doing that to many.
-the last is to put him in some sort of scenario. a test. its obviously a test perhaps. He needs to stop someone or figure out who the "murderer" is. the trick here, and i dont have the details is that there is no right answer. Those who he doesnt seek are violent or terrible people (acted as such, if this is all fake,) who are almost or just as responsible for the problem as the main person. perhaps the main villian has done something horribly wrong but they did it out of desperation. Might actually be best for this to be a real mission in which he is asked to take them back alive. or a illusion sequence he thinks is real. He might have to choose between letting the culprit get away, and forgoing proof or evidence that would get a major criminal put in jail, or witnesses a man beating his wife, but has to make a split decision.
The key here is there is no right answer to any of his decisions. He has to learn that it is people he is dealing with, people he is judging, and whether he makes those decisions right or wrong he has to TRY to do the right thing, whatever he thinks it is because there IS no right thing to do.

thats my 2 cents

[Doughnut Master]

I believe RoboCop was a paladin. So they're not all bad.

Just sayin...

[Callista]

Don't use torture. There's no reason for a D&D paladin to torture anyone--all you need are Zone of Truth and spamming Charm Person.

May I note that Grey Guards are actually more dedicated to the paladin's code than run-of-the-mill paladins are.

In most D&D worlds, the paladin literally has his god on his side; or he has the forces of Good on his side at the very least. In quite a few settings it is literally impossible for a paladin to be placed in a situation where he is forced to commit an evil or chaotic act because the gods are involved enough to always provide a third option.

In the settings where that is not the case, enter the Grey Guard. The Grey Guard is every bit as idealistic as the paladin who knows there's always a third option; but in this case, the third option may not be there, and the Grey Guard knows it. He is just as dedicated to finding it; but, unlike the regular paladin, he is in a world where it may not be there and he may have to choose the lesser of two evils.

If your player has a paladin in a gritty setting where shades-of-gray have him seeking atonement often, then the Grey Guard is an excellent PrC option.

Regarding the "golden statue of Heironeus" idea, what's to stop the paladin from simply buying the statue or requesting to have it to aid in his investigation of the thieves' guild? That's what most would do. Infiltrating a thieves' guild in and of itself is probably enough for the Grey Guards to notice and offer membership to the PC. Having to lie and play a deceptive role runs contrary to what paladins tend to value, especially contrary to honor; and doing it anyway would prove that the PC is willing to discard his honor and do this when it's absolutely necessary, for the cause of good.

[The Winter King]

Don't use torture. There's no reason for a D&D paladin to torture anyone--all you need are Zone of Truth and spamming Charm Person.

True, except paladins and clerics do not get charm person. You do not have to speak at all in a zone of truth nor do you have to talk about what the interrogater wants. You could also speak in code or a language they dont know. So there are plenty of reasons to use torture.

[sonofzeal]

And Charm Person does not work that way.

[Pigkappa]

Regarding the "golden statue of Heironeus" idea, what's to stop the paladin from simply buying the statue or requesting to have it to aid in his investigation of the thieves' guild?

I don't think the other paladins would likely give him the statue to accomplish this quest.

Nothing prevents him from trying to obtain a fake one or buy it (but that would be expensive). It would be a nice way to solve the problem and I would likely grant (a little) bonus experience for that.

[Rethmar]

Sonofzeal, you understand this prestige class well. I'm proud of you. :D