Theory on Tarquin and Girard

[Haxonyou]

Hey, I got an idea on how Tarquin and Girard are related...

Girard is really Nale and Elan's father, The "Tarquin" thing is just a BIG hoax.
AKA: a Illusion created by Girard.

[Mutant Sheep]

This has been proposed many times on this forum, and I'm still not seeing any real reason for this besides epileptic trees.

[Sarco_Phage]

This is a silly theory, since we've always known that Elan's dad was a big bad warlord off conquering things somewhere. I don't think Rich Burlew is into massive retcons like that.

[Connington]

Because Chaotic Stupid characters who can't stand next to a champion of the Lawful axis at it's most Good and noble are all about masquerading as brutal Lawful Evil tyrants who crush all hope of freedom and liberty under their boot? :smallconfused:

[ricorum]

Because Chaotic Stupid characters who can't stand next to a champion of the Lawful axis at it's most Good and noble are all about masquerading as brutal Lawful Evil tyrants who crush all hope of freedom and liberty under their boot? :smallconfused:

Quite true.

[XxXU2XxX]

Girard is most likely Tarquin's father and by that account, Elan and Nale's grandfather.

[Xacal]

This has been proposed many times on this forum, and I'm still not seeing any real reason for this besides epileptic trees.

Now, what does "epileptic trees" mean, again? :smallconfused:
Is it just like insanely complex/contradictory family lineage?


EDIT: Ah, it's a term for generic, overly byzantine, unlikely fan theories. Got it. Hmmm.... reference to both the TV show Lost and also possibly to Lovecraft. Probably should have recognized that one...:smallsigh:

[Mutant Sheep]

Now, what does "epileptic trees" mean, again? :smallconfused:

Ah, it's a term for generic, overly byzantine, unlikely fan theories. Got it. Hmmm.... reference to both the TV show Lost and also possibly to Lovecraft. Probably should have recognized that one...:smallsigh:

:smalltongue: Sorry about making you look at TV Tropes, that always hurts me inside.:smallfrown:

[NerfTW]

I'm not entirely clear on how it means what it does, but it's one of the few good things to come out of that site, since it so perfectly describes the "What if it's all a dream? Wouldn't that be AWESOME AND RANDOM?!?" type of suggestions.


This idea makes no sense for MANY reasons. First, Tarquin is very, VERY, EXTREMELY EVIL. Girard is not.

Second, Girard would have recieved the same warning the Sapphire guard and Dorukon recieved. (As mentioned in the Crayons of Time, the trial, and SOD) If a group of good aligned adventurers showed up asking around for Girard, talking about the fate of the world, he'd know darn well what was going on. He wouldn't be screwing around with gladiator fights while a threat was probably heading his way.

Third, it would render this entire storyline completely pointless and moot. It would be an absolute waste of time on everybody's behalf, including the characters, for no reason whatsoever. Girard is just angry with Soon, he's not a complete idiot who'd leave the gate undefended just to run gladiator games for giggles.

[King of Nowhere]

No, Girard cannot be the father of Elan and Nale.
We all know that Girard is Miko's father and Belkar's cousin, and he made an illusion of the guy who shot Haley's mother. On the other hand, we know Tarquin must be real, because it's been recognized as V's stepfather and brother-in-law to Xykon.

[sims796]

No, Girard cannot be the father of Elan and Nale.
We all know that Girard is Miko's father and Belkar's cousin, and he made an illusion of the guy who shot Haley's mother. On the other hand, we know Tarquin must be real, because it's been recognized as V's stepfather and brother-in-law to Xykon.

You forgot Mr. Scruffy somewhere in that equation.

[Xacal]

:smalltongue: Sorry about making you look at TV Tropes, that always hurts me inside.:smallfrown:

Ah yes, TVtropes, that dark place of despair, compiled by innumerable drones and trolls. Hey, it's like Mordor! :smallbiggrin:

Heh, I dunno, doesn't seem that bad to me. Even if it does let writing conventions and pitfalls become very easy for the reader....

Back on topic.
@Haxonyou: I think a lot of people had a similar idea. I guess it could work, but dang, that's one detailed illusion! Eh, it could be true though. At the risk of sounding obvious, that's the thing with illusions, you can never tell if their real or not until after the fact, if even then. It really could turn out that Girard has fabricated an entire empire. But it seems sort of unlikely.

On the other hand, though, it could be Girard's way of testing Elan and the rest of OoTS as to how good they actually are. I guess it could be possible.

It'd just be really, really strange.

[Ceryan]

You forgot Mr. Scruffy somewhere in that equation.

Do we really need to mention something so obvious? Clearly, Mr. Scruffy is Haley's mom under a Baleful Polymorph and Dominate Monster spell.

[faustin]

No, Girard cannot be the father of Elan and Nale.
We all know that Girard is Miko's father and Belkar's cousin, and he made an illusion of the guy who shot Haley's mother. On the other hand, we know Tarquin must be real, because it's been recognized as V's stepfather and brother-in-law to Xykon.

Tarquin killed Girard many years ago and remove his sharingan for himself, which Tarquin used to create the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears in people´s mind. the Snarl was only a side effect.

:smallsigh: Nothing as an epic illusionist for improving everyone´s paranoia levels or giving birth wackiest theories ever.

[H Birchgrove]

I am Girard, and I have tricked you all into believing you live in a "mundane" world without magic, monsters or experience points. :smallamused:

[ThePhantasm]

All these theories are absurd.

But on another note, I'm getting a kick out of the fact that Girard has made half the people on this forum paranoid. Everyone seems to expect half the strip to be a lie forged by Girard.

[skim172]

One question I have - how could Girard still be alive? We know that Soon is dead, presumably of old age, since in a world where every single living thing can be restored to life at material cost, it'd be the only thing keeping him down.

We also know that Soon passed on control of the Sapphire Guard to Shojo's father, when Shojo was still a young boy. Presumably, Soon had already been head of the Guard for a long time, since it generally takes time to design, fund, assemble, codify, and popularize a large elite paramilitary organization sanctioned by the gods, particularly since it involved building a giant castle as well. (And since the castle is built around the sapphire and the city is built around the castle, that would imply Soon was responsible for the founding of Azure City itself.)

And when Shojo's father passed on, he gave control to Shojo, who, when we meet him, is quite aged. So I would guess I'm looking at at least a century of time elapsed here. In any case, it's enough for two generations to have passed of old age and one more to be on the verge of it.

So how old is Girard, then? If he's alive, he must be ancient. He appears to be quite human, which I personally find to be limiting to my plans for eternal life. Thinking of a real-world equivalent, Girard's being alive in Roy's time would be like one of us meeting Abraham Lincoln in a Starbuck's. And he's not a zombie.

I suppose you could say this is one of those fantasy settings where age is somehow linked to the number of PC levels you have. Or one where you conveniently find life-extending artifacts every time you get a wrinkle. But Soon was also a PC, and he's dead as a doornail.

On the other hand, Dorukan was clearly alive and kicking as little as a few months before the beginning of the strip, and as a magic user, it's not like he ever really got fresh air or exercised. Perhaps he watched his sodium intake, but the guy lived isolated in a dank underground pit - he should've succumbed to disease before he hit 50.


I dunno - I'm wondering if Girard could possibly be alive at all. And why the OOtS expects him to be alive either.

Although - the recorded message could easily have been much older in origin. And perhaps Girard has passed on and merely his "confederates" live on.

Actually, I just thought of something: maybe Girard's confederates are, in fact, Tarquin and his five buddies.

[Talvereaux]

I'm not entirely clear on how it means what it does, but it's one of the few good things to come out of that site, since it so perfectly describes the "What if it's all a dream? Wouldn't that be AWESOME AND RANDOM?!?" type of suggestions.


This idea makes no sense for MANY reasons. First, Tarquin is very, VERY, EXTREMELY EVIL. Girard is not.

Second, Girard would have recieved the same warning the Sapphire guard and Dorukon recieved. (As mentioned in the Crayons of Time, the trial, and SOD) If a group of good aligned adventurers showed up asking around for Girard, talking about the fate of the world, he'd know darn well what was going on. He wouldn't be screwing around with gladiator fights while a threat was probably heading his way.

Third, it would render this entire storyline completely pointless and moot. It would be an absolute waste of time on everybody's behalf, including the characters, for no reason whatsoever. Girard is just angry with Soon, he's not a complete idiot who'd leave the gate undefended just to run gladiator games for giggles.

Not to mention, from the little we've gleaned of Girard's personality, he's ridiculously anti-authority. Unless it turns out Girard has pulled a 180 from every clue the story has offered on his personality, I presume he doesn't moonlight as head of a shadow government for a lawful evil dystopia. Most likely, Tarquin knows of him from an antagonistic relationship.

[Red XIV]

Wasn't Soon a good bit older than the other members of the Order of the Scribble? Well, except for Lirian, since as an adult elf she had to be over 110 years old. So the fact that Soon died of old age doesn't necessarily mean any of the other Scribblers would have done so yet. He could very well have been near the top end of Middle Age category during the group's adventure.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

And when Shojo's father passed on, he gave control to Shojo, who, when we meet him, is quite aged. So I would guess I'm looking at at least a century of time elapsed here. In any case, it's enough for two generations to have passed of old age and one more to be on the verge of it.
Who said Shojo’s dad passed of old age? Even if he did, he need not have been young when he sired Shojo.

In any case, Shojo explicitly stated at the trial that the first rift was discovered by Soon sixty six years prior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). That would be 67 years ago at the current point in the comic.


I suppose you could say this is one of those fantasy settings where age is somehow linked to the number of PC levels you have. Or one where you conveniently find life-extending artifacts every time you get a wrinkle. But Soon was also a PC, and he's dead as a doornail.
Of note—as epic level characters, the Scribble had access to a feat called Extended Life Span[/i]. So high levels can bring a longer life span, if you choose to spend your feats on it.

And Soon was implied to be a fair bit older than the rest of the Order. In the Middle Age category, at least. Throw in a bad roll on the maximum age chart, and he certainly won’t make it 66 years. And that’s also discounting the hypothesis that Soon may have sacrificed himself to start the Ghost Martyrs, shortening his life by a decade or two.


On the other hand, Dorukan was clearly alive and kicking as little as a few months before the beginning of the strip, and as a magic user, it's not like he ever really got fresh air or exercised. Perhaps he watched his sodium intake, but the guy lived isolated in a dank underground pit - he should've succumbed to disease before he hit 50.
I’m pretty sure he kept his castle cleaner than that.


I dunno - I'm wondering if Girard could possibly be alive at all. And why the OOtS expects him to be alive either.
Well, even without Extended Lifespan, [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age]the maximum human age is 110 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#extendedLifeSpan). So, if he maxed his roll, he could have been as old as 53, and still last long enough for the Order of the Stick to come knocking on his door. (Just barely)


Actually, I just thought of something: maybe Girard's confederates are, in fact, Tarquin and his five buddies.
Any reason for Girard to oh-so-dramatically shift his views on tyranny?

[Sarco_Phage]

On the other hand, Dorukan was clearly alive and kicking as little as a few months before the beginning of the strip, and as a magic user, it's not like he ever really got fresh air or exercised.

Lirian would probably disagree.:smallamused:

[skim172]

Who said Shojo’s dad passed of old age? Even if he did, he need not have been young when he sired Shojo.

In any case, Shojo explicitly stated at the trial that the first rift was discovered by Soon sixty six years prior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). That would be 67 years ago at the current point in the comic.


Thanks, didn't catch that part on previous read-throughs. That does clear things up a bit.

It also seems that in that same comic, Soon is literally handing Shojo's dad the sapphire with the rift inside. So that would suggest that the founding and rule of Azure City was independent of the Sapphire Guard and Soon merely gave the sapphire and the Guard to the rulers of Azure City. I guess the rift is portable? How handy. :smallsmile:

Though that seems to contradict Hinjo later saying that the "throne, platform, and castle" were built around the sapphire, but perhaps that was all constructed later.


Any reason for Girard to oh-so-dramatically shift his views on tyranny?

It was just a thought. I suppose I was thinking that Girard was dead and his confederates turned out to be less noble than he was. Just thought it would ratchet up the drama if it turned out the confederates who'd been notified were the enemy.

I guess I could still argue that it's possible that Tarkers was Girard's associate and killed him and set off his own grand designs.

Just idle thoughts, mind you - I'm not taking any of this very seriously. I'm sure Girard will be revealed in time. It's just fun to speculate.:smallsmile:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It was just a thought. I suppose I was thinking that Girard was dead and his confederates turned out to be less noble than he was. Just thought it would ratchet up the drama if it turned out the confederates who'd been notified were the enemy.
Oh, yeah. Girard’s friends could have had the changing attitudes toward tyranny. Which wouldn’t necessarily have been as dramatic a change over.

Hell, now that I think of it, we already know that Girard is a poor judge of character. Adventure for years with a guy, saving the world from a god-killing abomination, and you don’t even grasp how Lawful Stupid the guy is when it comes to silly oaths? :smallsigh:

[Sarco_Phage]

Adventure for years with a guy, saving the world from a god-killing abomination, and you don’t even grasp how Lawful Stupid the guy is when it comes to silly oaths? :smallsigh:

It's funny, because Girard seemed to be assuming everyone is as chaotic as him.

Speaking of which, we have yet to see any of the other members of the Order of the Scribble, besides Soon.

[EmperorSarda]

Speaking of which, we have yet to see any of the other members of the Order of the Scribble, besides Soon.

Well Lirian was killed years ago. Durokan was killed 6 months before the comic began, so it is hard to really see them. Unless flashbacks count.

[Dr.Epic]

This has been proposed many times on this forum, and I'm still not seeing any real reason for this besides epileptic trees.

Yes.

Also how old would that make Girard? And how old would he have been when he met their mother?

[faustin]

I guess I could still argue that it's possible that Tarkers was Girard's associate and killed him and set off his own grand designs.

I agree with this one, except the possibility Girard was still alive and imprisoned, and it´s up to the Order to rescue him.
And I would not be surprised if Whitesnake was the one who prolonged Girard´s life (in a painful, disgusting and humiliated way).

[M.A.D]

Not to mention, from the little we've gleaned of Girard's personality, he's ridiculously anti-authority. Unless it turns out Girard has pulled a 180 from every clue the story has offered on his personality, I presume he doesn't moonlight as head of a shadow government for a lawful evil dystopia. Most likely, Tarquin knows of him from an antagonistic relationship.

Actually, since Girard distrusts ALL authorities, but authorities would have still keep on existing without him, it would be easier to take matters in his own hands and create his own government, one that he could actually trust.


Thanks, didn't catch that part on previous read-throughs. That does clear things up a bit.

It also seems that in that same comic, Soon is literally handing Shojo's dad the sapphire with the rift inside. So that would suggest that the founding and rule of Azure City was independent of the Sapphire Guard and Soon merely gave the sapphire and the Guard to the rulers of Azure City. I guess the rift is portable? How handy. :smallsmile:

Though that seems to contradict Hinjo later saying that the "throne, platform, and castle" were built around the sapphire, but perhaps that was all constructed later.


The jewel is inside the throne, which Shojo's dad's back was covering when Soon handed him something else. What give you the idea that whatever Soon was giving to Shojo's dad was the Gate?

[skim172]

It's actually the comic immediately after, #277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). Shojo's dad is sitting on what looks very much like the same throne, except the part where the gate is supposed to be is just grey. And Soon is handing Shojo's dad a blue oblong object that looks a lot like the sapphire on Shojo's throne.

It's all speculation.

[Thanatosia]

I really wish people were required to have even some shred of evidence or logic supporting their theories before posting these threads. It would'nt have to be much, but for god sakes, have SOMETHING. There is ZERO reason to suppose that Girard = Tarquin, and heaps of evidence against it - not the least of which being that from what we know of Girard he's halfway between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Stupid, while Tarquin is halfway between Lawful Evil and Lawful Super Genius, they couldn't possibly be more different.

[Mutant Sheep]

Originally Posted by Mutant Sheep
This has been proposed many times on this forum, and I'm still not seeing any real reason for this besides epileptic trees.
________________________________________
Yes.

Also how old would that make Girard? And how old would he have been when he met their mother?

Yay Dr. Epic quoted me! My forum crawling life is now complete.
Back onto Girard's age, he is 6 years old, because hes a time traveling reincarnation of Roy's little brother, to whom time is relative ( he is also O-chul's twin, separated at birth by a robotic witch)

[Dr.Epic]

Yay Dr. Epic quoted me! My forum crawling life is now complete.
Back onto Girard's age, he is 6 years old, because hes a time traveling reincarnation of Roy's little brother, to whom time is relative ( he is also O-chul's twin, separated at birth by a robotic witch)

I might have to sig that?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It's funny, because Girard seemed to be assuming everyone is as chaotic as him.
Hell, you don’t have to be anywhere even near “Lawful with Neutral Tendencies” to recognize such a thing as Extenuating Circumstances. You can be very Lawful and still know even the most sacred of Oaths may need to be broken to defend what is really important.


There is ZERO reason to suppose that Girard = Tarquin, and heaps of evidence against it - not the least of which being that from what we know of Girard he's halfway between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Stupid, while Tarquin is halfway between Lawful Evil and Lawful Super Genius, they couldn't possibly be more different.
Well, they could be completely Chaotic Stupid and completely Lawful Super Genius, respectively. :smalltongue:

[JSSheridan]

The scrying/divination spell that shows up in 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) is green colored.

I just noticed in 357 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) someone who uses green magic and has a squiggly tattoo on his face.

What IF they teleport to Cliffport for their supplies?

[Mutant Sheep]

I might have to sig that?

If you wanna sig it go ahead, would make me even happier:smallbiggrin:
And i highly doubt the generic magic user guy from the Inn who was with about a dozen plus other people at the Inn in a stampede to kill a kobold is related to the story in anyway shape or form besides saving Belkar's life. :smallannoyed: Ah logic, I do miss thee.:smallsigh:
Edit: And, of course, if they DO go to Cliffport for their supplies- "We're screwed, obviously"