[3.5] Battle Sorcerer

[Sacrieur]

I am joining a game with ECL 7. PH and PH2 ONLY (bummer, I know). Races were given more leniency, so my attempt to play a drow half-fey psion was quickly shot down.

And I've wanted to try my hand at something new, so I figured battle sorcerer was the way to go. But, from what I've read online, Battle Sorcerer is useless (on the face he seriously is, he isn't very good at fighting OR spell casting).

HOWEVER, good news ensues. I actually found a way to play a Battle Sorcerer at level 5 with decent enough damage (Metamagic Specialist).

My Drow race, while subtracting -2 from my ECL, does give me some yummy bonuses (especially since I rolled so well). Right now my stats look like:

Str: 18
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 18
Cha: 20

Impressive for an ECL 7... (at least a character that doesn't have hands growing out of its ass or the equivalent absurdity it takes to minmax higher).

---

Anyway, so in going over if I actually want to play Battle Sorcerer, I looked over a number of feats and soon found a fun combination. The level 1 spell True Strike gives you +20 on your next attack roll. Knowing I would be swinging things around at stuff that liked to move out of the way I decided to pick it up.

Nifty, except it takes a standard action to cast (which makes it silly). Well no problems there, just cast your spell and then move into position. Bouncing around the battlefield seems like a good option here if your AC can take it. Perhaps with Mobility I can make opponents have to chase me to minimize them making full attacks.

The spell restriction does pose a bit of a problem for a Battle Sorcerer, he gets -1 to all of his spells per day, and so is pretty limited on casting. My 20 Cha negates this up to level 5 spells (and gives me an extra level 1 spell). In the future I do plan on charisma buffing myself passed this restriction, so it isn't much of an issue.

Next I took the feat Power Attack. Yum, yum, let's see if we buff up my damage to something respectable. I all ready have a BAB of 7, so I can throw all of those points into damage and let the True Strike do all the hitting for me. Of course, if I wield my trusty longsword with both hands I get a nice extra 14 damage total from just power attack.

If I add this all up I get 1d8 + 1.5x str + 14 = 1d8 + 6 + 14 = 1d8 + 20 damage... With an extra 20 to hit.

Still not done yet...

Looking through the books there's another level 1 spell, Shocking Grasp. That's 5d6 touch attack electric damage at my CL. There's a metamagic feat in PH2 called Smiting Spell that allows me to store this spell in a melee weapon and discharge it. It takes an extra standard action (remember, I'm a metamagic specialist) and a level 2 spell slot, but that's no big deal.

If I expel the charge along with the rest of my barrage above (the +20 is what does it, it is like a guaranteed hit), I'll be churning out 1d8 + 5d6 + 20 with a 20 to hit in a single attack. Of course, this would require 2 rounds to prepare, but Smiting Spell allows me to prepare the weapon a minute in advance, giving me plenty of opportunities to do so. As a side question, would it be possible to stack multiple shocking grasps? Naturally they would all discharge at once, but would it be the equivalent of multiple shocking grasps discharging at once (so like 10d6 for 2 spells, then 15d6 for 3, and 20d6 for four, etc...)

At higher levels when quicken spell becomes an option, true strike can easily become a simple swift action (yay for metamagic specialist), enabling a free hit with power attack for a level 5 spell. Or level 4 if I take Arcane Thesis (which doesn't seem quite worth it, since the spell won't benefit from the +2 CL).

And then there are all of the other spells available that can be mixed with Smiting Spell (especially necro ones, stunning my opponent with an attack they can't dodge sounds nice).

And then there's Tenser's Transformation. Such an unused spell (for a good reason). I mean, as a wizard or sorcerer you're **** without your spells. So giving that up as well as giving up your spell caster roll to the party is just plain dumb ({scrubbed}). But our lovely Battle Sorcerer isn't half bad of a fighter; actually, Tenser's Transformation would give him a boost that would push his stats into somewhat respectable of a fighter - what with a BAB of 20th level cleric at level 15 (or is this not how it works?).

So those are my ramblings. What do you guys who know far more about this say? Am I just a crackpot who is spending a bunch on stuff that's really quite worthless?

[Thurbane]

I actually don't mind Battle Sorcerer, it can be handy to get into certain Gish PrCs.

Everyone else will tell you it's horrible...the word "trap" will come up a lot.

[Darwin]

It's a trap! :smallbiggrin:

If you want a Gish sort of character like this I'd recommend Duskblade (available in PH2) over Battle Sorcerer. He does this sort of thing a lot better.

[Sacrieur]

It's a trap! :smallbiggrin:

If you want a Gish sort of character like this I'd recommend Duskblade (available in PH2) over Battle Sorcerer. He does this sort of thing a lot better.

It's funny because I looked him up before I tossed him out because of the lack of Cha, but I'm really being silly, all I have to do is throw in one of my 18s for int and then Use Cha as my dump. And a lot better BAB progression and saves.

---

Maybe I'm just floating around because I really wanted to play a psion who PrC in Master of the Unseen Hand with Arcane Thesis in telekinesis.

*sigh*, my dreams of throwing people into the sky and having them form craters upon impact are forever crushed D=

[Vasja]

How are you getting BaB +7 if your level is 5 (ECL 7 - 2 LA) and Battle Sorcerer has Cleric not Fighter BaB?

[Sacrieur]

How are you getting BaB +7 if your level is 5 (ECL 7 - 2 LA) and Battle Sorcerer has Cleric not Fighter BaB?

/facepalm

I accidently added in my str to the +3 BAB I really had. With that the actual damage I'm doing with this is incredibly lower.

But with Duskblade I'll still have a BAB of +5, so meh. +10 damage instead of + 14.

[Last Laugh]

/facepalm

I accidently added in my str to the +3 BAB I really had. With that the actual damage I'm doing with this is incredibly lower.

But with Duskblade I'll still have a BAB of +5, so meh. +10 damage instead of + 14.

Hmmm, do duskblades get wraithstrike? Take a look at Smiting Spell (Cdiv maybe?) and Spell-storing weaponry for massive channeling goodness (3 spells and a melee attack is a great way to start a round)

[Quietus]

/facepalm

I accidently added in my str to the +3 BAB I really had. With that the actual damage I'm doing with this is incredibly lower.

But with Duskblade I'll still have a BAB of +5, so meh. +10 damage instead of + 14.

You could pick up more BAB if you go with a race that isn't Drow. Is being Drow really that important to you? A standard Elf would get two additional levels, and all the goodies that go with that - including higher BAB and saves.

[Sacrieur]

Hmmm, do duskblades get wraithstrike? Take a look at Smiting Spell (Cdiv maybe?) and Spell-storing weaponry for massive channeling goodness (3 spells and a melee attack is a great way to start a round)

Nope, and I'm only allowed PH and PH2.

Duskblades are limited to their own spell list. It lists Sure Strike as a level 2 spell that gives you + 1 /3 levels. I laugh, because True Strike is a level 1 spell that gives you +20 (but duskblades don't have it).

Duskblade spells are all a joke, I guess that's the trade off. They have two level 5 spells: Slashing Dispel and Sonic Shield. Both of which are terrible for how late you get them, and hardly benefit the duskblade at all. I'd be far better off playing a Battle Sorcerer if I want spell versatility. I get virtually all the spells that Wizards have...

To compare, at level 17 (when duskblade gets his crappy level 5 spells) the battle sorcerer has access to an 8th level spell that's definitely worth something. At 3 8th level slots at 17th level, the sorcerer can use quicken spell on 3 4th level spells.

I guess you could counter and say that duskblade has good BAB and Saves. But really, those spells are terrible and hardly worth looking at or even using. Chances are you'll be rushing and swinging a sword around ANYWAY just because it is so much better than your spells. You'll use quicken spell once or twice, use some arcane channeling, but at the end of the day almost all of your damage is going to be caused by your sword. And if you come up against an opponent who you have to use magic on because they're that dangerous of magic users... You're SoL /because they're like 100x the spell caster you are/. Any magic user who is at your level can be stabbed with a sword once or twice and declared dead. If that's the case just say whatever and be a fighter. You get nifty bonus feats that help you kill things better.

Duskblade is a trap imo.



You could pick up more BAB if you go with a race that isn't Drow. Is being Drow really that important to you? A standard Elf would get two additional levels, and all the goodies that go with that - including higher BAB and saves.

Yeah, I really do want to be a drow for some reason I don't want to give that up. Drow does come with some really nifty SR (11 + HD).

[Ernir]

The Duskblade gets love because it's good for a melee class. The Battle Sorcerer gets hate because it's crap for a caster class.

The Battle Sorcerer is still stronger than the Duskblade.

And a Sorcerer is stronger than the Battle Sorcerer. Still, if you're set on both casting spells and swinging a pointy bit of metal, the Battle Sorcerer might just be your best bet. Most of the "good" melee mage classes are way outside core + PHB2.

[Sacrieur]

The Duskblade gets love because it's good for a melee class. The Battle Sorcerer gets hate because it's crap for a caster class.

The Battle Sorcerer is still stronger than the Duskblade.

And a Sorcerer is stronger than the Battle Sorcerer. Still, if you're set on both casting spells and swinging a pointy bit of metal, the Battle Sorcerer might just be your best bet. Most of the "good" melee mage classes are way outside core + PHB2.

Well, Battle Sorcerer does get d8 HD for what's it is worth. That means, on average, a Battle Sorcerer will have 2x as many hit points. A level 5 Battle Sorcerer, in two turns, can dish out 1d8 + 16 damage with virtually a guaranteed hit - enough to kill a level 5 sorcerer (who can't dish out the same in two rounds). And with my SR as a drow, I can actually take on spell casters stronger than I am.

Additionally, he can wear light armor without the arcane fail penalty. The Duskblade has this too, but his spells aren't worth it.

Spellsword would be the obvious choice here, but that's off limits, so Battle Sorcerer is the best. But really, he has so many spells to choose from and so many potential creative ways to mix them with magic... It really leaves the creativity up to you to create some seriously powerful effects.

Or I could just play a Sorcerer specializing in battlefield control and really take control of the game like mad.

[Douglas]

Duskblades are limited to their own spell list. It lists Sure Strike as a level 2 spell that gives you + 1 /3 levels. I laugh, because True Strike is a level 1 spell that gives you +20 (but duskblades don't have it).
Ah, but Sure Strike is effectively Quickened for free.

Also, True Strike actually is on the Duskblade list. You're probably looking at the list of Duskblade spells that are new in PHB2. The full Duskblade spell list is on page 24.


I guess you could counter and say that duskblade has good BAB and Saves. But really, those spells are terrible and hardly worth looking at or even using. Chances are you'll be rushing and swinging a sword around ANYWAY just because it is so much better than your spells. You'll use quicken spell once or twice, use some arcane channeling, but at the end of the day almost all of your damage is going to be caused by your sword. And if you come up against an opponent who you have to use magic on because they're that dangerous of magic users... You're SoL /because they're like 100x the spell caster you are/. Any magic user who is at your level can be stabbed with a sword once or twice and declared dead. If that's the case just say whatever and be a fighter. You get nifty bonus feats that help you kill things better.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!?!?!:smallamused::smallamused:

*Ahem*

Arcane Channeled Shocking Grasp. Arcane Channeled Vampiric Touch. Scorching Ray. Polar Ray. Chain Lightning. Disintegrate.


Duskblade is a trap imo.
Read the real full class spell list on page 24 and get back to us if you still think that.

[Sacrieur]

Ah, but Sure Strike is effectively Quickened for free.

Also, True Strike actually is on the Duskblade list. You're probably looking at the list of Duskblade spells that are new in PHB2. The full Duskblade spell list is on page 24.


BWAHAHAHAHA!!?!?!:smallamused::smallamused:

*Ahem*

Arcane Channeled Shocking Grasp. Arcane Channeled Vampiric Touch.


Read the real full class spell list on page 24 and get back to us if you still think that.

Eh, still don't think so.

I could just do a Smiting Spell in substitute of Arcane Channeled. Access to level 5 spells (chain lightning) is at level 17. I get access to that spell as a Battle Sorcerer at level 11. The Duskblade gets free quickened spells and arcane channeling, but a fighter is still far better. Or hell, even a paladin has a one up on duskblade.

[FMArthur]

Well, Battle Sorcerer does get d8 HD for what's it is worth. That means, on average, a Battle Sorcerer will have 2x as many hit points. This wouldn't be true even on some kind of idiot melee-sorceror with a +0 Con modifier; average roll on a 1d4 is 2.5, and the average on 1d8 is 4.5; ideally you'd never want anything under 14 (16 is good) Con on a melee caster though.


A level 5 Battle Sorcerer, in two turns, can dish out 1d8 + 16 damage with virtually a guaranteed hit - enough to kill a level 5 sorcerer (who can't dish out the same in two rounds).
What. A Sorceror can cast Scorching Ray twice in two rounds, easily outdamaging that... and that's a fairly poor option especially when compared with normal ECL 7 characters. And your target isn't another Sorceror with a competing build if you want to guage actual usefulness, but a normal monster that the competing builds would each be up against.


And with my SR as a drow, I can actually take on spell casters stronger than I am.
No. That's really far from true. As a Drow, which is a really awful race for its LA, you are two levels behind other spellcasters, who can summon, conjure orb spells, buff, conjure clouds and other game-changing battlefield control spells - affecting you directly, even - without ever interacting with your Spell Resistance. Their spells are stronger than yours and they have access to the next tier up of spells that you don't.


Additionally, he can wear light armor without the arcane fail penalty. The Duskblade has this too, but his spells aren't worth it. At least they deal better damage and don't eat up multiple turns of actions just for one swing. It's true that Sorceror/Wizard spells are better than Duskblade spells, but not if you're trying to enter melee and deal direct damage. They actually do win at that rather handily.

[JohnDaBarr]

OK just so you all know one thing important, Duskblade only needs two spells and they are shocking grasp and vampire touch

first gives you +3 on attack roll if the target has metal armor and extra 5d6 if I'm not mistaken, and you can use Sure strike as a swift action simply to balance the use of power attack

so with full BaB and good str you don't need no true strike and if you do well use quick cast duskblade has that ability x/per day depends on the lvl (you can get lvl 1 spells you think you need by going 1 lvl wizard)

and I hope I don't need to explain how to use the second spell.

everything else depends on the situation and on your spell pick so choose carefully

[Douglas]

Fighter and Paladin better than Duskblade? You obviously haven't been reading these forums very long.

Unless you start pulling out extreme optimization tricks like Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, a Duskblade's damage output is going to make a Fighter or Paladin go cry in a corner at how pathetic he is. The Duskblade also gets some significant buff, debuff, and utility spells that the Fighter and Paladin can't match.

Yes, you could use Smiting Spell to substitute, but that costs a feat and +1 metamagic and at higher levels it can't match the Duskblade's full attack channeling.

Yes, Battle Sorcerer gets better casting than Duskblade. Battle Sorcerer takes a lot more work to be a functional gish, though. Duskblade gets better BAB, better hit points, better armor, better saves, and class features actually designed with combining spells and melee in mind. If you're going straight Battle Sorc, you're not really building a gish, you're building a caster that isn't completely worthless in melee. You'd be better off relying entirely on your casting, but doing that effectively discards the benefits of Battle Sorcerer. If you really want a good gish with a Sorcerer base you'll have to do some multiclassing and/or take certain prestige classes, but again that discards the benefits of Battle Sorcerer while keeping the penalty.


If I expel the charge along with the rest of my barrage above (the +20 is what does it, it is like a guaranteed hit), I'll be churning out 1d8 + 5d6 + 20 with a 20 to hit in a single attack. Of course, this would require 2 rounds to prepare, but Smiting Spell allows me to prepare the weapon a minute in advance, giving me plenty of opportunities to do so.
How often will you actually know in advance that combat will occur within the next minute? In my experience, pretty damn close to never. So that 1 round for preparing Smiting Spell will usually come from combat time. Add the 1 round for True Strike, and congratulations on doing an average of 14 damage per round at the cost of a first level spell and a second level spell. Oh, and a pretty significant chance of a lot of it being wasted due to being massive overkill.

Now try the Duskblade instead. First round, he channels a Shocking Grasp. Second round, he channels a Shocking Grasp. Third round he channels a Shocking Grasp. That's 1d8+5d6+6 three times, for 3d8+15d6+24 damage, an average of 90 - and it's a lot less likely to include overkill waste. Granted, this doesn't have the near guaranteed hit from True Strike, but if you hit even half the time you'll still beat the Battle Sorc combo, and with no Power Attack penalty, full BAB, and the +3 vs armored targets from Shocking Grasp you should be able to hit that often quite easily. And if you really do need that much attack bonus, you can whip out True Strike (or Sure Strike for intermediate cases) too.


As a side question, would it be possible to stack multiple shocking grasps? Naturally they would all discharge at once, but would it be the equivalent of multiple shocking grasps discharging at once (so like 10d6 for 2 spells, then 15d6 for 3, and 20d6 for four, etc...)
No. Casting another spell causes any touch spell you have ready to discharge to no effect.


And then there's Tenser's Transformation. Such an unused spell (for a good reason). I mean, as a wizard or sorcerer you're **** without your spells. So giving that up as well as giving up your spell caster roll to the party is just plain dumb (and we're talking Sarah Palin dumb). But our lovely Battle Sorcerer isn't half bad of a fighter; actually, Tenser's Transformation would give him a boost that would push his stats into somewhat respectable of a fighter - what with a BAB of 20th level cleric at level 15 (or is this not how it works?).
Sure, you get the BAB of a 20th level cleric at level 15. Or you could rephrase that as the BAB of a 15th level fighter at level 15. Oh, and you can't cast all those lovely Smiting Spell tricks that were actually giving you an advantage any more. Tenser's Transformation is a pure junk spell, nearly worthless in practically every situation.


So those are my ramblings. What do you guys who know far more about this say? Am I just a crackpot who is spending a bunch on stuff that's really quite worthless?
Yes. Yes you are.

[Teron]

Well, Battle Sorcerer does get d8 HD for what's it is worth. That means, on average, a Battle Sorcerer will have 2x as many hit points.
Only if you have 10 Con (and even then, not quite double). Unless your character concept calls for high Wis, you should swap your Wis and Con, which would give you an average of 41 HP at level 5, compared to 29 for a normal sorcerer -- and the difference will become even less important when you start boosting your HP with spells or items.


A level 5 Battle Sorcerer, in two turns, can dish out 1d8 + 16 damage with virtually a guaranteed hit - enough to kill a level 5 sorcerer (who can't dish out the same in two rounds).
A level 5 sorcerer can deal more damage than that without trying -- two castings of magic missile narrowly top it.


And with my SR as a drow, I can actually take on spell casters stronger than I am.
SR 15 at ECL 7 isn't that great; casters of your own level will beat it on an 8, and it's a lot easier to boost caster level/SR penetration than SR. Even in core, casters also have plenty of ways to hurt or disable you without rolling against SR at all (mostly conjuration). Finally, there's a chance you'll end up dying because the cleric failed to heal you or something.

I don't mean to dissuade you if you really want to play a high Wis drow gish -- just trying to provide some perspective.

EDIT: ...and I posted way too late as a result of leaving the tab alone too long again. Ah, well.

[Leon]

So those are my ramblings. What do you guys who know far more about this say? Am I just a crackpot who is spending a bunch on stuff that's really quite worthless?

Are you going to play the PC or us?

Take anything said on here with a grain of salt and use it to make a PC that you want to play - Try the Battle Sorcerer and see how it fits what you want to do with it. If it doesn't then maybe try the Duskblade or the XYZ class/Prc combo that gets bantered about.

[HappyBlanket]

I'm actually playing in a game right now, and I'm planning to take levels of Battle Sorcerer in the future. It's not optimized, but I still want to get some advice (read as: I'm half hijacking this thread). I'd like to get an idea as to what I can expect - would also like to know if I'm better with Sorcerer or Battle Sorcerer. The main reasons I have for picking Battle Sorcerer is the better BAB and the better hit dice, but I need to know if the loss of spells is worth it.

I'm playing a Fighter right now, but I intend to take levels of a spell casting class in the future. My Charisma is 15, and my Intelligence is 9 (she's a bratty teenager). The spells I'm looking for in particular are True Strike, False Life, and Bull's Strength / Bear's Endurance. Hell, maybe Rage.

If it matters, the other members of the party are a Necropolitan Human Cleric (Undead and Deathbound domain), a Gnome Paladin (Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack), and a Human Wizard (focuses on Acid spells).

Please and thank you :smalltongue: I'm likely to start taking BSorcerer at level six or eight, since I'm trying to get Leap Attack, Combat Brute, and Shock Trooper as soon as possible. We're currently level three.

[The J Pizzel]

I'm not gonna beat a dead horse. I'll just say that I've played Duskblades several times, and I've played a Battle Sorcerer once or twice and the Duskblade is a better Gish than the BS could hope to be.

And "nova striking" with the duskblade is an absolute blast.

Carry a two-handed weapon. (lets say greatsword)
Have a high strength (lets say +4)
Activate Blades of Blood on a previous round.
Quickened true strike for a +20
Power Attack for max amount (let's say level 5)
Channel Shocking Grasp

You're now rocking 2d6 + 6 (str) + 10 (power attack) + 3d6 (blades of blood) + 5d8 (shocking grasp)

So....total is 5d6 + 5d8 + 16

Not bad.

Disclaimer - I haven't played 3.5 in a while so this might be a little off.

[Kylarra]

I'm actually playing in a game right now, and I'm planning to take levels of Battle Sorcerer in the future. It's not optimized, but I still want to get some advice (read as: I'm half hijacking this thread). I'd like to get an idea as to what I can expect - would also like to know if I'm better with Sorcerer or Battle Sorcerer. The main reasons I have for picking Battle Sorcerer is the better BAB and the better hit dice, but I need to know if the loss of spells is worth it.

I'm playing a Fighter right now, but I intend to take levels of a spell casting class in the future. My Charisma is 15, and my Intelligence is 9 (she's a bratty teenager). The spells I'm looking for in particular are True Strike, False Life, and Bull's Strength / Bear's Endurance. Hell, maybe Rage.

If it matters, the other members of the party are a Necropolitan Human Cleric (Undead and Deathbound domain), a Gnome Paladin (Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack), and a Human Wizard (focuses on Acid spells).

Please and thank you :smalltongue: I'm likely to start taking BSorcerer at level six or eight, since I'm trying to get Leap Attack, Combat Brute, and Shock Trooper as soon as possible. We're currently level three.If you're taking caster levels so late, you're kind of better off not taking them at all, or trying to get into either one of the face-track caster prestige classes, like Ur-Priest.

[Leon]

Stick with Battle Sorcerer - if you can squeeze it in around the other 3 feats you want to get Battle Caster will let you do your thing in Medium Armour (read as Mithral Fullplate).

The limited selection of Spells to a Battle Sorcerer is less of a issue if you have a small selection that you want anyway.

[Brock Samson]

Please, please consider the heavy investment that trying to use True Strike AND Smiting Spell is going to take.

That being said, don't suppose there's any chance your DM would let you Prestige Class into Spellsword or Abjurant Champion? Man that would be helpful.

Also, instead of Tenser's Transformation (which, sorry to say, would just make your level X Sorcerer a level X Fighter without all the Fighter feats), either invest in UMD so you can use a Wand of Divine Power (Level 4 Cleric spell in PHB that gives you full Base Attack Bonus as well as another benefit or two I think) and DOESN'T stop you from casting spells.

One more thought, you can always think about going Cleric and getting a limitless list of spells to choose from each day, and then taking a good Domain or two, and I believe there's a feat or Alternate Class Feature which allows you to spontaneously cast your Domain Spells (which can be things like True Strike and Haste, Scorching Ray, Teleport, it all depends on what Domain you take). Plus, going Cleric, you get some of THE best buffing spells in the game, and if you're going to go up and hit something with a Sword, you literally CANNOT do better.

[Gaius Marius]

I always wondered how screwed a group of PCs were to go fight a Lich, preparing to face a powerful Wizard or a Cleric, and then find out it's a Duskblade.

[Elric VIII]

I'm actually playing in a game right now, and I'm planning to take levels of Battle Sorcerer in the future. It's not optimized, but I still want to get some advice (read as: I'm half hijacking this thread). I'd like to get an idea as to what I can expect - would also like to know if I'm better with Sorcerer or Battle Sorcerer. The main reasons I have for picking Battle Sorcerer is the better BAB and the better hit dice, but I need to know if the loss of spells is worth it.

I'm playing a Fighter right now, but I intend to take levels of a spell casting class in the future. My Charisma is 15, and my Intelligence is 9 (she's a bratty teenager). The spells I'm looking for in particular are True Strike, False Life, and Bull's Strength / Bear's Endurance. Hell, maybe Rage.

If it matters, the other members of the party are a Necropolitan Human Cleric (Undead and Deathbound domain), a Gnome Paladin (Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack), and a Human Wizard (focuses on Acid spells).

Please and thank you :smalltongue: I'm likely to start taking BSorcerer at level six or eight, since I'm trying to get Leap Attack, Combat Brute, and Shock Trooper as soon as possible. We're currently level three.

Try Suel Archanamach, it's pretty cool.

true_shinken's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159617)

[HappyBlanket]

Try Suel Archanamach, it's pretty cool.

true_shinken's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159617)

I get two skill points a level.
Suel Archanamech isn't happening (but I might use it for a different game).

Also! What do you all recommend for my first 2nd level spell? I'm torn between Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, and False Life.

[Gavinfoxx]

So I'm surprised no one has linked the duskblade handbook...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.0

At least take a look at that, alright?

[Keld Denar]

Also! What do you all recommend for my first 2nd level spell? I'm torn between Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, and False Life.

I like Wraith Strike (SpC) and Whirling Blade (CArc/SpC). Wraith Strike is a swift action cast, meaning you can buff with it and still kick butt. Whirling Blade gives you a melee based ranged attack, with all of the fun melee abilities you already have stacked on top of it. Its a ranged option that is better than blasting for a melee oriented gish.

[FMArthur]

Sacrieur: I just want to add that if you do still want to play a your Battle Sorceror build, you should try to run a couple simulation encounters by picking a monster out of the MM at CR 7 for the character to fight, and not in the most optimal circumstance the character could manage but with realistic awareness of the threat determined by how fast you spot it, how fast it spots you, etc.

The reason I suggest this is that this is a self-buff melee character... and I've played alongside several failure builds at that particular job which looked great on paper but in reality spent too long preparing to attack before doing anything to really help the party. They were a non-DMM Cleric, Transmuter gish, and a Psychic Warrior. They would spend the first several turns buffing up, and then basically mop-up the remains of the encounter, after it had done its damage to the party, and after they'd dealt with its main problems.

They also had serious longevity problems, spending too many resources to deal with the early encounters and not having enough left for the full routine later; for two of them it actually took someone saying out loud that they were more help to the party when they didn't have the resources to waste their turns, and they shaped up and started fighting earlier in the next sessions. The Psychic Warrior never got that and just kept doing it, making his comrades into a 3-man party.

[Jack Zander]

Are you allowed to power attack with touch spells? Because if so I think I know what my next character is going to be...

[Sacrieur]

Sacrieur: I just want to add that if you do still want to play a your Battle Sorceror build, you should try to run a couple simulation encounters by picking a monster out of the MM at CR 7 for the character to fight, and not in the most optimal circumstance the character could manage but with realistic awareness of the threat determined by how fast you spot it, how fast it spots you, etc.

The reason I suggest this is that this is a self-buff melee character... and I've played alongside several failure builds at that particular job which looked great on paper but in reality spent too long preparing to attack before doing anything to really help the party. They were a non-DMM Cleric, Transmuter gish, and a Psychic Warrior. They would spend the first several turns buffing up, and then basically mop-up the remains of the encounter, after it had done its damage to the party, and after they'd dealt with its main problems.

They also had serious longevity problems, spending too many resources to deal with the early encounters and not having enough left for the full routine later; for two of them it actually took someone saying out loud that they were more help to the party when they didn't have the resources to waste their turns, and they shaped up and started fighting earlier in the next sessions. The Psychic Warrior never got that and just kept doing it, making his comrades into a 3-man party.

Yeah I get it all now. There are some very good objections. But I mean, I'm welcome to play whomever I choose, and with my ludicrously high stats I really can excel at anything. We all ready have a sorcerer and a wizard in the party, so clearly buffing isn't necessarily my thing. I was thinking how to become a tactical nuke, but that would be easy as a fighter or cleric.

I suppose I could always fighter it up and then do with a two weapon specialist.

[Jack Zander]

Yeah I get it all now. There are some very good objections. But I mean, I'm welcome to play whomever I choose, and with my ludicrously high stats I really can excel at anything. We all ready have a sorcerer and a wizard in the party, so clearly buffing isn't necessarily my thing. I was thinking how to become a tactical nuke, but that would be easy as a fighter or cleric.

I suppose I could always fighter it up and then do with a two weapon specialist.

Take 4 levels of battle sorcerer and the rest in fighter. Make sure you have nothing but buffs prepared. Equip yourself with several metamagic rods of quicken (minor) and viola! Attack and buff in the same round! Quickened true strike + power attack + expertise? Yes please!

[Douglas]

Assuming you mean "absurdly huge quantities of damage" by "tactical nuke", Duskblade is probably the best choice available in PHB and PHB2. Getting fighters and barbarians to match or beat a Duskblade's typical damage output usually requires certain splatbook options that are not available to you. Plus, a Duskblade can do his damage with standard actions, allowing movement too, while Fighters and Barbarians (especially two-weapon types) require full attacks.

[Keld Denar]

Take 4 levels of battle sorcerer and the rest in fighter. Make sure you have nothing but buffs prepared. Equip yourself with several metamagic rods of quicken (minor) and viola! Attack and buff in the same round! Quickened true strike + power attack + expertise? Yes please!

Metamagic Rods of Quicken don't work for Sorcerers. Metamagic rods explicitly state that sorcerers using them are subject to casting time increases. If your casting time is increased, you can't apply Quicken Spell.

You could do this with a Circlet of Rapid Casting from the MIC, but without that, you'd need either Metamagic Specialist (PHBII) or either of the feats Arcane Preperation (CArc) or Rapid Metamagic (CArc).

[Seerow]

Metamagic Rods of Quicken don't work for Sorcerers. Metamagic rods explicitly state that sorcerers using them are subject to casting time increases. If your casting time is increased, you can't apply Quicken Spell.

You could do this with a Circlet of Rapid Casting from the MIC, but without that, you'd need either Metamagic Specialist (PHBII) or either of the feats Arcane Preperation (CArc) or Rapid Metamagic (CArc).

Wasn't there also a feat in races of dragon that allows for quickened metamagic, or am I misremembering?

[Sacrieur]

Metamagic Rods of Quicken don't work for Sorcerers. Metamagic rods explicitly state that sorcerers using them are subject to casting time increases. If your casting time is increased, you can't apply Quicken Spell.

You could do this with a Circlet of Rapid Casting from the MIC, but without that, you'd need either Metamagic Specialist (PHBII) or either of the feats Arcane Preperation (CArc) or Rapid Metamagic (CArc).

Yup, metamagic specialist =P

Right now I'm kinda at a loss of what to do.

[Jack Zander]

Right now I'm kinda at a loss of what to do.

Metamagic specialist + rods true strike + power attack + expertise. You know in your heart this is what you want to do.

[Douglas]

Yup, metamagic specialist =P

Right now I'm kinda at a loss of what to do.
Duskblade? It seems to fit the general idea of what you want perfectly, it's a respectably powerful option, and it would give you more substantial differences from the existing party casters.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Duskblade is in every way superior to Battle Sorcerer for what you want to do.

[Sacrieur]

See I really don't know about that. I enjoy the huge selection of spells, but then again, I'm only going to be using a select few a lot.

So meh, Duskblade might be the thing (full BAB). But instead I've decided to play a human knight then maybe see if I can prestige in Spellsword... Since I'll be able to cast spells then as well as use heavy armor.

[Keld Denar]

Huge selection? Battle Sorcs only know 2 spells per spell level above 4th, and only 5 per level below that, and thats at the highest levels. Huge selection my foot!

[Sacrieur]

Huge selection? Battle Sorcs only know 2 spells per spell level above 4th, and only 5 per level below that, and thats at the highest levels. Huge selection my foot!

More to choose from though, and gets more powerful spells sooner than duskblade.

[Leon]

Huge selection? Battle Sorcs only know 2 spells per spell level above 4th, and only 5 per level below that, and thats at the highest levels. Huge selection my foot!

Sorcerers have a much much wider spell list - however Sacrieur is interested in a small pool from that vast selection


Edit: Sorcerered

[Talya]

I'm not sure i'd try to play a gish until I was in a campaign that allowed complete mage.

[faceroll]

Take 4 levels of battle sorcerer and the rest in fighter. Make sure you have nothing but buffs prepared. Equip yourself with several metamagic rods of quicken (minor) and viola! Attack and buff in the same round! Quickened true strike + power attack + expertise? Yes please!

How is a battle sorcerer quickening his spontaneously cast spells using metamagic?


Yeah I get it all now. There are some very good objections. But I mean, I'm welcome to play whomever I choose, and with my ludicrously high stats I really can excel at anything. We all ready have a sorcerer and a wizard in the party, so clearly buffing isn't necessarily my thing. I was thinking how to become a tactical nuke, but that would be easy as a fighter or cleric.

I suppose I could always fighter it up and then do with a two weapon specialist.

If you want to do lots of damage, your best option is duskblade. Full BAB with a two-handed weapon, power attack, and channeling spells is going to do a ton more damage than scorching ray or spending bunch of rounds putting buffs up. TWF fighter will be doing marginal damage, comparatively. Your high high ability scores will only carry you so far, too. I recommend going gray elf or something not drow. Drow suck a lot. +2 LA for virtually nothing worthwhile. Losing two class levels on a class that actually get cool stuff (like spells or arcane channeling) is a huge bummer.


More to choose from though, and gets more powerful spells sooner than duskblade.

Unfortunately, you can't use those spells in conjunction with a power attack or trip.

Getting swift cast utility spells, like fly or invis, and great nukes to stack with a smack to the face, makes the Duskblade a great gish. I think it will do more what you want it to do, especially if you really plan on eating to levels of sucktastic drow (stupid emo elves).


I'm not sure i'd try to play a gish until I was in a campaign that allowed complete mage.

Have you looked at Duskblade? It's pretty awesome. Not a T1 gish by any means, but solidly T3 goodness. I put five levels on an annis hag to maul the party. Was awesome.

[only1doug]

I used Duskblade as the BAB and weapon proficiency contributer to my gish build. Add a splash of wizard and use PRCs to advance wizard casting.

Unfortunately you don't have access to Abjurant Champion, which makes for great gish builds.

Duskblade / wizard doesn't make an awful gish, load wizard side with buffs and still have duskblade spells and abilities available in combat.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I used Duskblade as the BAB and weapon proficiency contributer to my gish build. Add a splash of wizard and use PRCs to advance wizard casting.

Unfortunately you don't have access to Abjurant Champion, which makes for great gish builds.

Duskblade / wizard doesn't make an awful gish, load wizard side with buffs and still have duskblade spells and abilities available in combat.

Nah, you're still better off as a straight Duskblade, who already gets spells. Unless you just want to go Wizard and not have to worry about melee, but that doesn't sound like the archetype he's going for.

[arguskos]

Unfortunately you don't have access to Abjurant Champion, which makes for great gish builds.
Yes you do. Lesser Deflect totally is an Abjuration spell, and it's on your spell list. I mean, I don't recommend Duskblade-->Abj.Champ unless you can convince your DM to let you have a few other abjurations (should be a method to get at least Shield and Dispel Magic onto your list; Arcane Disciple, maybe?), but you can totally do it.

[Douglas]

Yes you do. Lesser Deflect totally is an Abjuration spell, and it's on your spell list. I mean, I don't recommend Duskblade-->Abj.Champ unless you can convince your DM to let you have a few other abjurations (should be a method to get at least Shield and Dispel Magic onto your list; Arcane Disciple, maybe?), but you can totally do it.
He doesn't mean rules-wise, he means sourcebook-wise. The OP is only allowed to use PHB and PHB2. Abjurant Champion is in Complete Mage, which is not on that rather short list.

[only1doug]

Yes you do. Lesser Deflect totally is an Abjuration spell, and it's on your spell list. I mean, I don't recommend Duskblade-->Abj.Champ unless you can convince your DM to let you have a few other abjurations (should be a method to get at least Shield and Dispel Magic onto your list; Arcane Disciple, maybe?), but you can totally do it.

Abj Champ is from complete mage, banned source for OP.

Ninja'd due to missus distractions

[arguskos]

He doesn't mean rules-wise, he means sourcebook-wise. The OP is only allowed to use PHB and PHB2. Abjurant Champion is in Complete Mage, which is not on that rather short list.
Yeah, that's true. :smallsigh: Thought he was referring to simple compatibility, in which case, yeah, you totally can do it (just not advised). Of course, the situation with the OP is well in hand with you fine folks, so I'll just be all "I wasn't here" now.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yes you do. Lesser Deflect totally is an Abjuration spell, and it's on your spell list. I mean, I don't recommend Duskblade-->Abj.Champ unless you can convince your DM to let you have a few other abjurations (should be a method to get at least Shield and Dispel Magic onto your list; Arcane Disciple, maybe?), but you can totally do it.

He only has access to PH I and PH II, so while a Duskblade is perfectly able to qualify for Abjurant Champion without shenanigans ( in fact I think it is the fastest entry to Abjurant champion, it gives everything you need practically free IIRC)

Edit: Swordsage'd quite a bit of times, and I didn't know until now. :smallannoyed:

[VirOath]

I can't believe that the duskblade has been mentioned without providing the link to the handbook. The Duskblade Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.0) covers the class pretty in depth way, as well as what it is good at, what it is not (Being awesome damage, but not a utility caster)

It's a bit of a read, but well worth it. Because the power of the duskblade isn't his spells levels, it is sheer number of spells per day and which spells he actually gets and the way those spells interact with his class features. It's the gish in a can base class, and it strong enough to go to 20 without PrCs or multiclassing.

But first things first, LA is bad. Playing LA is bad, and Drow are hurt because of it. Yes, the stat boosts are nice, but being 2 HD behind means that you are going to get rooked by HD dependent spells like Holy Word/Blasphemy. You lose saves, BAB (you would have a 2nd attack already otherwise), Hitpoints (I'm going to say about 16, enough to make the difference between hurt and bleeding out at your level) and caster levels (which directly affects your damage output) as well as Spells Per Day.

I'm going to tell you not to play a Drow (They were a 3.5 DM tool, then overpriced on LA to discourage players, or hurt them if they wanted to anyways) but to still play a 'Drow' since you have your heart set on it. Since your DM is being a little lenient on races, ask if you could have the PF Drow instead. It still has most of the bonuses yet doesn't come at an increased LA, it's straight up by class levels. Even offer to take a hit, since PF races are balanced a little differently, like -2 to a stat of his choice.

Failing that, I'd recommend playing any other flavor of elf from the mechanical standpoint and benefits, but just writing yourself up as a Drow. Agreeing to play something 'reasonable' for your DM will give you a bit more leeway, as that Drow-Half-Fey Psion was kinda screaming cheese as a knee-jerk, even though I know just how much that would hurt the build.

As pointed out, the SR isn't going to help you much, it's easy to beat and doesn't stop a lot of the damage that is going to be tossed about. The stat boosts are nice, but the simple fact that it is coming at the cost of everything else is crushing the bonus, stats are strong but are there to supplement classes, not cover the loss of their levels.

And if you can work with him to get some wiggle room with the books, take a nice little Gish feat out of Complete Warrior. I'm going to link directly, but understand that the Duskblade is a spell battery, the numbers of spells per day for the class is insane and was practically designed with this feat in mind.

See here why Arcane strike is godly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2252831%22)

I'm not saying that you shouldn't play your choices, because a character can be fun and awesome just by being the character, but you should understand that the duskblade isn't as weak as you think it is. Power isn't measure by spell levels, class levels, spells per day or even the spells themselves, it is what you can do with them that gives them weight. The duskblade is able to really make use of the action economy is a way that fighters can't, and really make their spellcasting mesh with their melee power out of the box in a way that takes a lot of work with other casters.

[Jack Zander]

How is a battle sorcerer quickening his spontaneously cast spells using metamagic?

With the feat in the PHBII. Read the few post right after the one you quoted. It's already been discussed.

[Thurbane]

With the feat in the PHBII. Read the few post right after the one you quoted. It's already been discussed.
Rapid Metamagic, CM. It costs a feat, but it's better than the ACF from PHB II.

[Sacrieur]

Yes, the metamagic specialist variant in PH2 allows me to bypass the added time restriction.

---

Here's the thing, and it's been touched on before by some people. Duskblade is a more powerful class. It has full BAB, the ability to wear light armor, and some very respectable abilities. Which does make it an excellent gish class.

Now look at their spell progression. They get level 5 spells at level 17th. Beyond that you only get 1 spell known per level... Which is fine because they get spells so slowly (and so few). At level 5 they get access to level 2 spells, and at level 9 they get spells at level 3. That's just laughable when compared to the Battle Sorcerer.

The Battle Sorcerer gets access to a new level spell every two levels. The difference between the two adds up in later levels. This proves that the Battle Sorcerer is more of a spellcaster than a fighter (I think we all knew that). For what I wanted to play, yes Duskblade is better. But going to so far as to say it's better than Battle Sorcerer I don't know.

At level 20 a Battle Sorcerer is a force to be reckoned with. The ability to cast Time Stop and spells like Mage's Sword and Power Word Kill/Stun can really make him a completely devastating opponent, far more devastating than a Duskblade at level 20 (which is largely due to time stop).

I mean seriously, we're talking about a guy who can stop time, and then throw simply buff himself to insanity or put you in a terribly awkward situation, and then run you through with a sword, without fearing your BAB.
---
The objection then is why not just be a pure wizard or sorcerer? Why use a sword since 9th level spells are so much more powerful?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

At level 20 a Battle Sorcerer is a force to be reckoned with. The ability to cast Time Stop and spells like Mage's Sword and Power Word Kill/Stun can really make him a completely devastating opponent, far more devastating than a Duskblade at level 20 (which is largely due to time stop).

I mean seriously, we're talking about a guy who can stop time, and then throw simply buff himself your put you in a terribly awkward situation, and then run you through with a sword.

Mage's Sword is worthless. Power Word Kill/Stun is even MORE worthless since they will be completely ineffective against the Duskblade, since he'd damn well BETTER have more than 100hp by level 20.

Also, Time Stop? Really? It's one of the weakest 9th level spells, to be honest. It's called Shapechange, my friend. Learn it, love it, live it. After all, you only get ONE 9th level spell, since you're butchering your Spells Known to be able to use a pointy stick only half-way bad instead of completely bad.

If you're going Sorcerer, do it right. If you want to do Time Stop, then freeking at least USE it.

Time Stop:

Cloudkill
DBFx2
Forcecage
DimLock

Proceed.

[Sacrieur]

Mage's Sword is worthless. Power Word Kill/Stun is even MORE worthless since they will be completely ineffective against the Duskblade, since he'd damn well BETTER have more than 100hp by level 20.

Also, Time Stop? Really? It's one of the weakest 9th level spells, to be honest. It's called Shapechange, my friend. Learn it, love it, live it. After all, you only get ONE 9th level spell, since you're butchering your Spells Known to be able to use a pointy stick only half-way bad instead of completely bad.

If you're going Sorcerer, do it right. If you want to do Time Stop, then freeking at least USE it.

Time Stop:

Cloudkill
DBFx2
Forcecage
DimLock

Proceed.

2 at level 20. But thank you for correcting me.

[VirOath]

The objection then is why not just be a pure wizard or sorcerer? Why use a sword since 9th level spells are so much more powerful?

And this is where it sits, just what do you want to play? Because it is never about the level of spells available, but rather what you do with them.

Do you want to be a full caster, as a caster? Do you want to use magic to mess up their day by ripping the threads of reality? Do you want to sit with an answer to almost anything you face? if so, then a Sorc or better yet Wizard is the choice for you to play.

But are you wanting to be a character that uses melee power to win fights, but stays augmented by magic, uses spells to hit harder or make the situation better for him to hit things? That is a Gish, and the Duskblade does it better than the Battle Sorc does.

The Sorc class can be used for a Gish, and with some work and access to more books for classes it can out perform the Duskblade at what it does. Heck, with what you have access to it's still possible. But it's a different level of Charop, the Duskblade comes out better at the Gish role from the start, no tinkering required.

We aren't saying that the Duskblade is more powerful than a Wizard or Sorc, but rather that the different classes use different means to handle the problems they face. Some are able to handle much more than others as well.

In terms of raw power and potential, that's the tier system. Wizard is with the gods in T1, Sorc shares the same power as the Wizard but not the adaptability in T2, and the Duskblade sits firmly in T3 at not having world bending power but being very flexible and able to adapt and do well in a variety of things as well as having his niche (which is dealing out raw damage).

So the Wizard and the Sorc have more raw power as a class, but that doesn't mean they are a fit for what you want to play, or that they are more fun. You said you wanted a Battle Sorc because you wanted to use magic to mix things up in melee, a self magic enhanced bruiser. Doing it that way requires proper use of the Action Economy (more notably, being able to buff and attack in the same round, instead of wasting time buffing yourself in the battle) which can be hard to build towards and is often the mark of success or failure for the builds and their effectiveness.

The Duskblade was designed to do that as a class, and makes good use of the Action Economy with access to Swift Action spells as well as having most of their offensive power come from Standard Actions, yet not needing to burn such actions to 'prep for nova', their strikes cast spells through them. The class also gets to move up to Medium armor, which opens the door for heavy armor as well, depending on how your DM handles Mithril.

And more raw power doesn't mean more fun either. I personally find myself bored with Sorcs and Wizards easily, I feel I have more room to improvise with other classes rather than just taking the answer off of the sheet.

Edit:



Time Stop:

Cloudkill
DBFx2
Forcecage
DimLock

Proceed.

Don't fall for this, this is a bigger trap than Battle Sorc, a complete waste of spell slots and resources, as well as spells known, for the result (which might just have the person inside laughing at you).

Click here for why, thanks to Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61295)

Edit 2:

And you are already looking at level 20, which is fine to plan ahead, but how soon will your build be playable? Will it be fun at level 7? Will it work at level 7? Characters aren't stamped out as a finished product, they grow as you play them.

[Fizban]

Are you allowed to power attack with touch spells? Because if so I think I know what my next character is going to be...

Didn't see anyone answer this. The answer is no: a touch spell isn't really a proper attack, just a roll to see if you connect with the spell, though it can crit on a natural 20. There's a magic item that will let you take a -5 to get an extra 1d6 with a touch spell, but it's hardly worth it, even for the price.

However, you can power attack with the effect created by a Flame Blade spell. Since you wield it the same as a normal weapon and make attack rolls to hit (against touch AC), it benefits from combat feats like Power Attack the same as a normal weapon would. You can even wield it two handed. There are a lot of sorcerer spells that create effects like this: Scimitar of Sand, Flame Dagger (light wepon, no power attack), Shadow Claws, Decastave, Flame Whips, and so on. Scimitar of Sand is the easiest to use since it's basically just an untyped Flame Blade, but the others have some cool effects, and Decastave makes it absolutely clear you're two-handing (since it creates a staff) for that increased PA damage.

[Sacrieur]

Sure that's an a bad combo, but what about incendiary cloud instead? There's ways to get around to immunity to poison or fort saves.

---

That said, what about Energy Drain? It's unavoidable and the target loses up to 8 levels.

[faceroll]

With the feat in the PHBII. Read the few post right after the one you quoted. It's already been discussed.

Huh, the only feat I know of is in CM, which is on the banned books.


Rapid Metamagic, CM. It costs a feat, but it's better than the ACF from PHB II.

Are battle sorcerers eligible for the ACF?


Mage's Sword is worthless. Power Word Kill/Stun is even MORE worthless since they will be completely ineffective against the Duskblade, since he'd damn well BETTER have more than 100hp by level 20.

Also, Time Stop? Really? It's one of the weakest 9th level spells, to be honest. It's called Shapechange, my friend. Learn it, love it, live it. After all, you only get ONE 9th level spell, since you're butchering your Spells Known to be able to use a pointy stick only half-way bad instead of completely bad.

If you're going Sorcerer, do it right. If you want to do Time Stop, then freeking at least USE it.

Time Stop:

Cloudkill
DBFx2
Forcecage
DimLock

Proceed.

Wat.
Time Stop is one of the top 3 9th level spells. Extra actions = win. And you spend that time putting buffs on, not setting up an expensive trap. Furthermore, this isn't a discussion of a duskblade fighting a battle sorcerer. That just doesn't make much sense.


The objection then is why not just be a pure wizard or sorcerer? Why use a sword since 9th level spells are so much more powerful?

Well yes, exactly. If you're going to be relying on (mediocre) spells to kill your enemies, why bother with 3/4 BAB and such a small spell selection? Go duskblade if you want to play a legit gish. Trust me, you'll get enough fun utility spells and terrific nuking abilities to not feel like a chump.


Are you allowed to power attack with touch spells? Because if so I think I know what my next character is going to be...

If you make your touch attack an unarmed strike. But then it's no longer a touch attack.

[VirOath]

Sure that's an a bad combo, but what about incendiary cloud instead? There's ways to get around to immunity to poison or fort saves.

---

That said, what about Energy Drain? It's unavoidable and the target loses up to 8 levels.

IC is as bad as DBF, Fire damage is the easiest form to find resistance or immunity to. And Energy Drain is about the worst 9th level spell ever written, ignoring the fact you can't use it in a time stop, it's 2d4. Compare that to Enervation at 1d4 at 4th level, then Split Ray it for 2d4 at the cost of a 6th level slot. Empower for 2d4*1.5 for a max of 12 at 8th level spells. And that's not eating your only 9th spell known, nor getting into extreme optimization of it.

And that is ignoring the simple fact as to how limited energy drain is at level 20, it's great for the level 7-14 range if you aren't facing loads of non-con monsters, but beyond that immunity starts to pile on really quickly.

Once again though, you are looking at ECL 20 without LA, and coming in at ECL 7 with LA. If you are going to drool over 9th level spells then drop the Battle Sorc, because that will make you Epic before you can cast 2 9th level spells a day.

A better thing to do is look at what your character will be able to do the instant he sets foot in the game, and then 5, then 10 levels down the road. So far, you seem to be skipping right to the end at 15 levels down the road, which can be hard to survive to even if the game lasts that long.


But Force Cage is just bad overall because of the cost involved. 1.5k gp per casting, as well as eating a spell known. It's more of a wizard thing, the spell is just too limited.

[Sacrieur]

Well yes, exactly. If you're going to be relying on (mediocre) spells to kill your enemies, why bother with 3/4 BAB and such a small spell selection? Go duskblade if you want to play a legit gish. Trust me, you'll get enough fun utility spells and terrific nuking abilities to not feel like a chump.

So it comes down to do you want to play a gish that's /fun/ or something that's /powerful/, in its own right.

There's also the way it meshes into the rest of the group. With a sorcerer and a buffing wizard in the group, playing Battle Sorcerer isn't as bad. By the time it's your turn you're going to be hasted and bull strength'd.

---

Time stop is indeed powerful. You can cast it then cast a ton of delayed fireballs all at least at 17d6 damage each.


A better thing to do is look at what your character will be able to do the instant he sets foot in the game, and then 5, then 10 levels down the road. So far, you seem to be skipping right to the end at 15 levels down the road, which can be hard to survive to even if the game lasts that long.


But Force Cage is just bad overall because of the cost involved. 1.5k gp per casting, as well as eating a spell known. It's more of a wizard thing, the spell is just too limited.

Oh, let me explain, my group is the power gamers of power gamers. We removed components for spells. Additionally we gain levels quickly. Very quickly (once per session, sometimes twice). There's no sense optimizing for levels 5-10 because I won't be there very long.

Additionally, fun magical items that give fighters cool abilities are found often enough.

[VirOath]

Time stop is indeed powerful. You can cast it then cast a ton of delayed fireballs all at least at 17d6 damage each.

Which, by level 17, Fire immunity or resistance of 50 or higher isn't that hard to find. And being that each DBF hits as a separate spell, each faces resistance on it's own by RAW. If your group handles it differently, then go right ahead. If not, then finding a way of dealing something other than fire damage is advised. Even elemental substitution would work.


Oh, let me explain, my group is the power gamers of power gamers. We removed components for spells. Additionally we gain levels quickly. Very quickly (once per session, sometimes twice). There's no sense optimizing for levels 5-10 because won't be there very long.

It's less about being optimized for those levels, and more about when your build comes into it's own. When does it actually do anything. Fiend of Possession is a good example of this, it's a build that really doesn't get it's main cornerstone until around level 12 or 14, IIRC. Before that, it's really crippled until it grows into what it is trying to be.

It's not about being able to be the strongest you can for the levels in between, it's about being able to do -something-. If I was to build a crazy Telekenisis specialized Master Of The Unseen Hand, even though the cornerstone of the build won't be until level 10 or later (MotUS levels), it comes into it's own at level 1 because of the spells and style I play. Right from the get go it can do something useful, even if it's not nearly as good or as fun as the main point of the build will be. And the best part is that when it comes to spells, early level spells are often still useful and powerful deep into the later levels.

So don't just look at 9ths, look at what you can do with 3rds, 4ths and 5ths as well.

Having the components removed for spells makes forcecage nicer, but it's still limited by size and by movement types. Not a strong spell, but atleast now it won't be hitting your pocket book as a punishment. It's still just an easy spell to deal with and looses strength as the game gets closer to ECL 20.

[faceroll]

So it comes down to do you want to play a gish that's /fun/ or something that's /powerful/, in its own right.

There's also the way it meshes into the rest of the group. With a sorcerer and a buffing wizard in the group, playing Battle Sorcerer isn't as bad. By the time it's your turn you're going to be hasted and bull strength'd.

Well, the gish will be both fun, powerful in combat (does damage, can take a hit), and will have access to a limited number of abilities that let him get around tough situations. His class abilities and spells share a lot of synergy.

The Battle Sorcerer, on the other hand, really requires a lot of material outside of what you're allowed to both be good at hitting stuff and be good at casting. Within your set of material, it can of course get access to some really neat stuff, like Shapechange or Web, but if you're wasting time with delayed blast fireball, then not only are you playing the wrong class, you're playing both class archetypes rather un-optimized. With an extremely small number of spells known, you either have to pick blasting, or pick buffing, or pick utility, but you really can't get into all of them very well. Furthermore, your action economy is going to be a bit borked, as every buff or blast you put out is going to set you back an action worth of attacks.

Even then, should you be using that outside material to get really good synergy, you'd be better off using a different arcane class, like sorcerer or wizard.

I guess I'm saying, to get the most power out of the Battle Sorcerer, you're either abusing polymorph (yawn) and inefficiently buffing, or trying to play it as a mailman, GOD, or Batman, and you lack the sources and/or spells known to really do that.

17d6 fire damage, save half, minus resistances, isn't very much damage compared to a power full attack from a buffed up spell channeling duskblade.

[Sacrieur]

Which, by level 17, Fire immunity or resistance of 50 or higher isn't that hard to find. And being that each DBF hits as a separate spell, each faces resistance on it's own by RAW. If your group handles it differently, then go right ahead. If not, then finding a way of dealing something other than fire damage is advised. Even elemental substitution would work.


It's less about being optimized for those levels, and more about when your build comes into it's own. When does it actually do anything. Fiend of Possession is a good example of this, it's a build that really doesn't get it's main cornerstone until around level 12 or 14, IIRC. Before that, it's really crippled until it grows into what it is trying to be.

It's not about being able to be the strongest you can for the levels in between, it's about being able to do -something-. If I was to build a crazy Telekenisis specialized Master Of The Unseen Hand, even though the cornerstone of the build won't be until level 10 or later (MotUS levels), it comes into it's own at level 1 because of the spells and style I play. Right from the get go it can do something useful, even if it's not nearly as good or as fun as the main point of the build will be. And the best part is that when it comes to spells, early level spells are often still useful and powerful deep into the later levels.

So don't just look at 9ths, look at what you can do with 3rds, 4ths and 5ths as well.

Having the components removed for spells makes forcecage nicer, but it's still limited by size and by movement types. Not a strong spell, but atleast now it won't be hitting your pocket book as a punishment. It's still just an easy spell to deal with and looses strength as the game gets closer to ECL 20.

Mmmm yes. I have actually been wanting to make an optimized MotUH Psion. But psions are out. Meh.

---

Btw, in case everyone is interested, I ended up choosing a human knight. I'll make a new thread about it, because I actually have a spell theme going on.

[VirOath]

Mmmm yes. I have actually been wanting to make an optimized MotUH Psion. But psions are out. Meh.

---

Btw, in case everyone is interested, I ended up choosing a human knight. I'll make a new thread about it, because I actually have a spell theme going on.

Why must it have been a psion? A wizard works just as well with it and can get the Master Specialist PrC with it as well.

And adding Chain Spell to Telekinesis to wield a crapton of weapons just pictures awesomeness in my mind.

[Jack Zander]

Didn't see anyone answer this. The answer is no: a touch spell isn't really a proper attack, just a roll to see if you connect with the spell, though it can crit on a natural 20. There's a magic item that will let you take a -5 to get an extra 1d6 with a touch spell, but it's hardly worth it, even for the price.

However, you can power attack with the effect created by a Flame Blade spell. Since you wield it the same as a normal weapon and make attack rolls to hit (against touch AC), it benefits from combat feats like Power Attack the same as a normal weapon would. You can even wield it two handed. There are a lot of sorcerer spells that create effects like this: Scimitar of Sand, Flame Dagger (light wepon, no power attack), Shadow Claws, Decastave, Flame Whips, and so on. Scimitar of Sand is the easiest to use since it's basically just an untyped Flame Blade, but the others have some cool effects, and Decastave makes it absolutely clear you're two-handing (since it creates a staff) for that increased PA damage.

Thanks for the reply. Are any of these spells actually any better than wielding a normal weapon?

[HappyBlanket]

Didn't see anyone answer this. The answer is no: a touch spell isn't really a proper attack, just a roll to see if you connect with the spell, though it can crit on a natural 20. There's a magic item that will let you take a -5 to get an extra 1d6 with a touch spell, but it's hardly worth it, even for the price.

However, you can power attack with the effect created by a Flame Blade spell. Since you wield it the same as a normal weapon and make attack rolls to hit (against touch AC), it benefits from combat feats like Power Attack the same as a normal weapon would. You can even wield it two handed. There are a lot of sorcerer spells that create effects like this: Scimitar of Sand, Flame Dagger (light wepon, no power attack), Shadow Claws, Decastave, Flame Whips, and so on. Scimitar of Sand is the easiest to use since it's basically just an untyped Flame Blade, but the others have some cool effects, and Decastave makes it absolutely clear you're two-handing (since it creates a staff) for that increased PA damage.

If I'm reading Wraith Strike correctly, it also lets you Power Attack a Touch Attack, right? By making your melee rolls Touch Attacks?
It's a swift action cast as well.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, it's Greater Shadow Evocation to create Forcecage. Sure, it gives them a Will save, but if they fail, it's a component-free Forcecage. Of course, there's ways to make it work, even then, by making it more than 100% 'real' on a save, but that takes a bit of optimization.

Also, unless it's immune to poison, cloudkill + Forcecage = no-save-just-die. Take con damage every round. For the next fifteen hours. Have a nice day. DimLock is just to keep them put.

The point stands: If you're going to be a Gish, then Duskblade is 1000% better than Battle Sorcerer. If you're going to be a full caster, then Battle Sorcerer is about the WORST thing you can ever do to yourself. Battle Sorcerer is the red-headed stepchild. It sucks as a Gish, and it sucks worse when pretending to be a caster.