What is anti heroes started showing up?

[TheProfessor]

Would people be confused?

"So,what's your alignment?" "Anti Hero." "What's an anti hero? Don't see it on the alignment chart..."

[Duaneyo1]

Would people be confused?

"So,what's your alignment?" "Anti Hero." "What's an anti hero? Don't see it on the alignment chart..."



Othello,Tony Soprano, Dexter Morgan, Vincent Vega, Hannibal Lecter, John McClaine, Dirty Harry and Wolverine are all examples of anti heros. Simply, an an anti hero is a main character that defers in some way from how we imagine a typical hero. This can range from the tough, quick tempered good guy who doesn't play well with others: Dirty Harry, John McClaine and Wolverine. All the way to people who would fill the south end of a DND alignment chart: Vince Vega, Dexter Morgan, Tony Soprano etc... Also, note that all of these examples still have traits that make them likeable or at least entertaining.

[TheProfessor]

I know what an anti hero is,I was just wondering what Dnd characters would think of a character who doesn't fit on the alignment scale.

[Themrys]

I know what an anti hero is,I was just wondering what Dnd characters would think of a character who doesn't fit on the alignment scale.

Anti heroes do fit on the alignment scale. It doesn't measure "Hero or not hero" it measures "Evil, Neutral or Good".

Either you don't understand the alignment scale and/or what an antihero is, or I don't understand the alignment scale. :smallconfused:

Edit:
This is the antihero alignment scale.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfAntiheroes

[super dark33]

i dont think it belongs in order of the stick discussion forum

[willdelve4beer]

always thought that the CG / N / LE section of the alignment chart ends up being the home for most anti-heroes.

LG is the obvious classic hero "Truth Justice and the {insert identity group of your choice} Way!". LN is the stick in the mud bureaucrat. NG is your basic mother teresa/gandhi do-gooder.

CE is your raving psycho, CN is just raving, and NE is just sociopathic.

CG gives us the robin hood rebel. N can be the selfish bastard with the heart of gold, and LE is the 'noble villain' who can end up a defacto hero.

Or perhaps, this all, y'know, taking the whole alignment thing a tad too seriously.

[sims796]

always thought that the CG / N / LE section of the alignment chart ends up being the home for most anti-heroes.

LG is the obvious classic hero "Truth Justice and the {insert identity group of your choice} Way!". LN is the stick in the mud bureaucrat. NG is your basic mother teresa/gandhi do-gooder.

CE is your raving psycho, CN is just raving, and NE is just sociopathic.

CG gives us the robin hood rebel. N can be the selfish bastard with the heart of gold, and LE is the 'noble villain' who can end up a defacto hero.

Or perhaps, this all, y'know, taking the whole alignment thing a tad too seriously.

Why do I keep hitting the quote button when I mean reply?

At any rate, I think you are right, more or less. However, if my understanding of how the alignment scale works you can still very much be a Lawful Good Anti Hero, and you can be a Neutral Good A-hole. As it was said, Anti Hero has no alignment, and it alignment in general is not a straightjacket. You can have a lawful good guy who doesn't want to help every Tom, ****, and Harry who passes by (for once), cause he's interested in the greater good.

EDIT: Well look, I won't change the censored name, you know what I meant. I forgot that word is usually censored.

[Ronan]

How about Belkar? He's a psychopath, sure. But he's a hero. He's one of the most competent of the order. Likes blood, but who doesn't :smallbiggrin:? He saved the day more than one, even being a Chaotic Eeeeeeeevil *oooooo* character.

Anyway he'll maybe run out of time, against all our wishes. But the true anti hero is not praised in glory. He dies and is soon forgotten or even hated. His deeds, however, live on.

[Earl William]

How about Belkar? He's a psychopath, sure. But he's a hero. He's one of the most competent of the order. Likes blood, but who doesn't :smallbiggrin:? He saved the day more than one, even being a Chaotic Eeeeeeeevil *oooooo* character.

Anyway he'll maybe run out of time, against all our wishes. But the true anti hero is not praised in glory. He dies and is soon forgotten or even hated. His deeds, however, live on.

Or, in the case of Belkar's deeds not live on. Because they're* DEAD.

Also, antihero/hero is narrative not moral.

*They in this case being the people Belkar effected the lives of the most i.e. ending them.

[TheProfessor]

Oh. If the thread doesn't belong here,feel free to remove it. I was just wondering if anti heroes have a place in the alignment system.

[Ronan]

Oh. If the thread doesn't belong here,feel free to remove it. I was just wondering if anti heroes have a place in the alignment system.

I guess it's ok, I don't post here much but the tread is about oots.

Anyway, Earl William, you said "Also, antihero/hero is narrative not moral".
I'm not a literature scholar, but I think we got ourselves a grey area here. In V for Vendetta, V has a good sense of justice, but does things his way. He *wants* to do it an thinks it's "too bat, but it's the only/best way"

As for Belkar, he wants bloodshed. He kills for fun and tags along oots doing exactly that. At the start, he ended up saving the day because he's pointed in the right direction. He needs to be pointed out to do good things. If unaware(until his epiphany with shojo) he did just so.

And he's my favorite character, that may bias my point :smallredface:

[t209]

Anti heroes do fit on the alignment scale. It doesn't measure "Hero or not hero" it measures "Evil, Neutral or Good".

Either you don't understand the alignment scale and/or what an antihero is, or I don't understand the alignment scale. :smallconfused:

Edit:
This is the antihero alignment scale.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfAntiheroes

I think it's chaotic good or lawful neutral (like A Man with no name).

[Duaneyo1]

I am not a expert on alignments or DND, but let me try to give some examples of alignments and anti heroes. I am also making an effort to draw examples from popular culture....

LG / NG: these are kind of tough as they are usually wind up a typical hero or part of the supporting class. Some examples that come to mind or the geeks /wimps in popular movies: ie. Daniel Larusso and Columbus from Zombieland

CG: This is the typical alignment for modern anti heroes: John McClaine, Robin Hood and Various comic book characters like wolverine.

LN: This "hero isn't always a nice guy" area includes: Dirty Harry, Seth Bullock (deadwood).

N: drawing a blank here. Possibly a recently reformed drug addict? No clue on movie examples.

CN: Almost every character in revenge movies: The Bride, driver, Paul Kersey ( death wish ) and Spartacus

LE / NE: These aren't nice people, but they still have a few qualities typlically honor, class or intelligence that you can respect. They also make for very interesting characters. Examples include: Michale Corleone, Tony Soprano, Dexter Morgan and my all time favorite anti hero.... Dr. Hanibal Lecter.

CE: The aren't many here. I suppose if you want to stretch and consider Vic Vega ( Michael Madsen in Reservoir Dogs ) a protagonist then he is a good example.

[Porthos]

Before she went coo-coo for cocoa puffs, it could be argued that Miko was a anti-hero. She could certainly fit the "Good is not Nice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsNotNice)" template that TV Tropes supplies.

She's also a loner, doesn't get along with her compatriots, and has a somewhat twisted sense of justice and honor. And she certainly sticks out from the rest of her compatriots.

And yet up until the moment she finally rolled a "1" for her personal "Stay Sane Today" check she was still LG. Probably a razor thin step away from being LN, but still LG.

So someone can be an anti-hero and be LG. Whether they stay that way, is the more important question. :smallwink:

[NNescio]

Before she went coo-coo for cocoa puffs, it could be argued that Miko was a anti-hero. She could certainly fit the "Good is not Nice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsNotNice)" template that TV Tropes supplies.

I would argue that she was an antivillain instead, since she was an antagonist, albeit somewhat briefly.

[Porthos]

I would argue that she was an antivillain instead, since she was an antagonist, albeit somewhat briefly.

Oh, no. She was definitely not an anti villain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiVillain). Antagonist? Absolutely. But not an anti villain. Mostly because, until she snapped, was still acting like a "hero". If a very dark and troubled one.

If you want to look for an example of an anti villan in the comic, Redcloak would probably be as close as one can find in the main strip. Although that is not a universally held opinion by any stretch of the imagination. :smallwink:

[NNescio]

Oh, no. She was definitely not an anti villain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiVillain). Antagonist? Absolutely. But not an anti villain. Mostly because, until she snapped, was still acting like a "hero". If a very dark and troubled one.

If you want to look for an example of an anti villan in the comic, Redcloak would probably be as close as one can find in the main strip. Although that is not a universally held opinion by any stretch of the imagination. :smallwink:

I was thinking of Inspector Javert when I said that, and Miko does share some similarities with him. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InspectorJavert)

And Inspector Javert is very much an anti-villain.

[Porthos]

I was thinking of Inspector Javert when I said that, and Miko does share some similarities with him. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InspectorJavert)

And Inspector Javert is very much an anti-villain.

Fair enuf. I would point out that Miko was on far friendlier terms with Roy at least than Javert ever was with his prey. But I still have a hard time seeing Miko as an anti villain. But, then again, the line between anti villain and anti hero is purposefully very vague and fuzzy.

Even so, my point is more that we have someone like Miko running around in the first place. Even if you accept the fact that by being an antagonist (and her role in the story) she gets cast as an anti villain, her qualities when she is just acting normal put her in the anti hero camp. Her actions with dealing with remnants of the Bandit Camp show the anti hero side of her character, IMO. Thus we already have an example of anti heroes in the comic, and by extention in DnD. That's all I was really striving for. :smallsmile:

[Jay R]

Would people be confused?

"So,what's your alignment?" "Anti Hero."

They'd only be confused by the refusal to answer the question. Any protagonist who isn't a stalwart hero is an anti-hero.

"I didn't ask for your literary classification; I asked for your alignment. I'm an antihero too -- a Chaotic Good ranger. Over there is the Neutral thief, and there's our Lawful Neutral wizard. We're all anti-heroes, except for the paladin. So what's your alignment?"

[hamishspence]

"I didn't ask for your literary classification; I asked for your alignment. I'm an antihero too -- a Chaotic Good ranger. Over there is the Neutral thief, and there's our Lawful Neutral wizard. We're all anti-heroes, except for the paladin. So what's your alignment?"

And even paladins can have ethical codes closer to antihero than hero- the Shadowbane Inquisitor in Complete Adventurer, the Grey Guard in Complete Scoundrel.

[Geordnet]

First off, I think the proper literary term for this is "Byronic Hero".

Second...

Othello,Tony Soprano, Dexter Morgan, Vincent Vega, Hannibal Lecter, John McClaine, Dirty Harry and Wolverine are all examples of anti heros. Simply, an an anti hero is a main character that defers in some way from how we imagine a typical hero. This can range from the tough, quick tempered good guy who doesn't play well with others: Dirty Harry, John McClaine and Wolverine. All the way to people who would fill the south end of a DND alignment chart: Vince Vega, Dexter Morgan, Tony Soprano etc... Also, note that all of these examples still have traits that make them likeable or at least entertaining.There is not one guy on that list who wouldn't on the bottom-right diagonal half of the alignment chart. I personally haven't seen all those tv shows/movies/etc to personally place them myself for you, but I'm fairly certain that once you start doing bad things for the greater good your alignment starts shifting too the right a bit. The same is even true of those who are evil; you can be CE just by being inconsistantly evil, not just by going on destructive rampages.

Lastly, the point of Miko being brought up as an obviously Byronic Hero/Anti-Hero seems to indicate that even LG characters can be one. However, I would like to point out that she lost her paladinhood, and therefore her alignment is no longer fixed at LG. (Personally, I was of the opinion that the alignment 'stress' had built up over time, and that when she killed Lord Shojo she snapped all the way to CG or TN.)

[NNescio]

First off, I think the proper literary term for this is "Byronic Hero".

Second...
There is not one guy on that list who wouldn't on the bottom-right diagonal half of the alignment chart. I personally haven't seen all those tv shows/movies/etc to personally place them myself for you, but I'm fairly certain that once you start doing bad things for the greater good your alignment starts shifting too the right a bit. The same is even true of those who are evil; you can be CE just by being inconsistantly evil, not just by going on destructive rampages.

Lastly, the point of Miko being brought up as an obviously Byronic Hero/Anti-Hero seems to indicate that even LG characters can be one. However, I would like to point out that she lost her paladinhood, and therefore her alignment is no longer fixed at LG. (Personally, I was of the opinion that the alignment 'stress' had built up over time, and that when she killed Lord Shojo she snapped all the way to CG or TN.)

Literarily (not 'literally') speaking, a Byronic hero (or rather, a Byronic character) is a specific type of character-archetype. They tend to have many of the following traits:


* high level of intelligence and perception
* cunning and ability to adapt
* sophistication and education
* self-criticism and introspection
* mysteriousness, magnetism and charisma
* struggle with integrity
* power of seduction and sexual attraction
* social and sexual dominance
* emotional conflicts, bipolar tendencies, or moodiness
* a distaste for social institutions and norms
* being an exile, an outcast, or an outlaw
* disrespect of rank and privilege
* a troubled past
* cynicism
* arrogance
* self-destructive behaviour

Note the similarities to the real-life Lord Byron. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Byron) Most Byronic heroes are also considered to be anti-heroes because these traits aren't particularly... heroic.

Also, Batman is usually considered to be a Byronic hero (or at least this is what the sheer amount of term papers on the subject has led me to believe), and Complete Scoundrel describes him as a Lawful Good character.

(And let's ignore the Batman alignment sheet for a moment please.)

Bear in mind, however, that most of the Byronic character traits are somewhat chaotic.

Also...

First off, I think the proper literary term for this is "
Second...
There is not one guy on that list who wouldn't on the bottom-right diagonal half of the alignment chart. I personally haven't seen all those tv shows/movies/etc to personally place them myself for you, but I'm fairly certain that once you start doing bad things for the greater good your alignment starts shifting too the right a bit. The same is even true of those who are evil; you can be CE just by being inconsistantly evil, not just by going on destructive rampages.

So Redcloak is Chaotic Evil? :smallconfused: Sounds pretty Lawful to me.

[Burner28]

Fair enuf. I would point out that Miko was on far friendlier terms with Roy at least than Javert ever was with his prey. But I still have a hard time seeing Miko as an anti villain. But, then again, the line between anti villain and anti hero is purposefully very vague and fuzzy.


I have to disagree with you

[Clertar]

Woody Allen's characters are perfect examples of antiheroes, too.

[TheProfessor]

Red Cloak is an Anti Villain because his motivation is from his Rage Against The Heavens mindset. He wants revenge on the gods.

As for Miko, Tvtropes defines her as Lawful Good to Lawful Neutral.

I guess her problem was she that she was too lawful good,and she turned into a Knights Templar character.

[Ceaon]

There are anti-heroes in the OotS comic. Roy is probably a hero, even though his sarcasm almost kept him out of the LG afterlife. However, he snarks more than a typical classic literature or Disney-movie hero, which would make him somewhat of an anti-hero according to some definitions.

Vaarsuvius seems very anti-hero-ish to me, and pre-character development Haley had anti-hero traits as well. If we go into NPC territory, Scribble-era Girard was already an anti-hero (what he is now is still undetermined). Shojo perhaps is one. Eugene meets the definition. If you seek somewhat 'eviler' anti-heroes, I think Miko could qualify.

IMO, Belkar is not an anti-hero. He's more of a Villain Protagonist or Token Evil Teammate. But yes, to me, anti-heroes seem common enough in OotS-world.

[Kish]

As for Miko, Tvtropes defines her as Lawful Good to Lawful Neutral.
...

"TVTropes defines her as" means "at least one person on the Internet considers her." It means no more than that. Please don't cite it as if it was supposed to have some kind of authority.

[CletusMusashi]

How about Julio Scoundrel?

[Souhiro]

always thought that the CG / N / LE section of the alignment chart ends up being the home for most anti-heroes.

LG is the obvious classic hero "Truth Justice and the {insert identity group of your choice} Way!". LN is the stick in the mud bureaucrat. NG is your basic mother teresa/gandhi do-gooder.

CE is your raving psycho, CN is just raving, and NE is just sociopathic.

CG gives us the robin hood rebel. N can be the selfish bastard with the heart of gold, and LE is the 'noble villain' who can end up a defacto hero.

Or perhaps, this all, y'know, taking the whole alignment thing a tad too seriously.

You Know... Judge Dredd IS Lawful Neutral, and he isn't a mud bureaucrat at all. In VtM there is the "Honorable Path" for Sabbath, that literally live from and for the honor. The Genius of the Lamp from Aladdin is Lawful Neutral (By contract, by convincement he is more a Chaotic Good type)

For me, Anti-hero is more a narrative thing. Even an unfortunate Lawful Good character can be an anti-hero (I'm looking at the Dirty Pair: They aren't chaotic, just are That Unfortunate!!)


In this comic, the only ones doing heroic things are the Orders: the sacred Order of the Stick, and the sacred Order of the Scribble... plus Miko and O'Chul. (Yeah, for all those Miko haters, she DID charge in to help the Dirt Farmers)

So, the only Anti-Hero of the comic can be Darth V, and perhaps (Only perhaps, because time will tell) is Eugene Greenhilt. Even Julio Scoundrel don't do any heroic things. And for Redcloak... he is more an aberration than anything: A Medium Sized Goblin! Slay that insult to the nature and to the monster compendium!!!

[TheProfessor]

...

"TVTropes defines her as" means "at least one person on the Internet considers her." It means no more than that. Please don't cite it as if it was supposed to have some kind of authority.

I'm not. I'm simply stating another persons view on it that I happen to follow.
That's what everyone does on forums. Say what they think.