All the broken spells in core?

[Z3ro]

I've seen it posted many times: All the most broken spells are in core! It'd be more balanced just to ban core! Now, I'll admit that I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all non-core sources, so I want to see if this were actually true.

Here's the thing, though. When I say broken, I don't mean powerful or just overpowered; grease and glitterdust are powerful, but not broken. Instead, I'm talking about game breaking, why are we even playing, doing things that weren't meant by the designers broken.

In core, the only real broken spells I would list would be the polymorph line, and Gate, possibly wish as well depending on how the DM plays it.

Out of core, the biggest broken spells I can think of are genesis and the celerity line, along with maybe shivering touch (broken in that the spell was written incorrectly).

So here's what I'm looking for: Instead of simply saying one side is more broken, provide examples and I want to see if one side is more clearly broken than the other.

[Telonius]

The Polymorph line and Gate are (as you've mentioned) the biggest offenders in Core.

Not necessarily game-breaking, but things like Divination and Contact Other Plane can be plot-breaking if the DM isn't careful, or isn't good about making up vague prophecies at a moment's notice.

Specific spells are broken, yes, but even the powerful and not-so-powerful spells are problematic. So Gate's banned; that's good. But the Wizard still has Contact Other Plane to see what's coming, Mirror Image and Displacement and Fly and Invisibility to not get hit, Rope Trick to hide in, Nondetection or Private Sanctum so nobody can find him, Dominate Monster to tell unwanted visitors to leave him alone, and Teleport or Plane Shift as panic buttons to get the heck out of here. Also a load of wands and scrolls of blasty spells just in case he actually needs to deal some damage directly. The individual parts aren't broken, but collectively they add up to something ridiculously more powerful than any non-spellcasting option.

[Mystic Muse]

While I can't think of anything other than knock at the moment, anything that allows the wizard to replace other classes should be banned.

[Z3ro]

Specific spells are broken, yes, but even the powerful and not-so-powerful spells are problematic. So Gate's banned; that's good. But the Wizard still has Contact Other Plane to see what's coming, Mirror Image and Displacement and Fly and Invisibility to not get hit, Rope Trick to hide in, Nondetection or Private Sanctum so nobody can find him, Dominate Monster to tell unwanted visitors to leave him alone, and Teleport or Plane Shift as panic buttons to get the heck out of here. Also a load of wands and scrolls of blasty spells just in case he actually needs to deal some damage directly. The individual parts aren't broken, but collectively they add up to something ridiculously more powerful than any non-spellcasting option.

I think this is what I'm talking about. You're right, the concept of the wizard compared to the concept of the fighter in 3.5 is broken; one can warp reality with a thought, one can kill something with a sword. But that's not what I'm talking about; I'm talking about specific game-breaking spells, not the concept of the wizard. So while fly is more powerful than 90% of what a mundane gets, that doesn' t make it broken. That's what I'm looking for.

[Curmudgeon]

Broken (i.e., mechanically unsound) in core:

Enlarge Person, because of equipment weight issue (x8 usually means stepping up to the next level of encumbrance)
Shatter, because of multiple possible definitions of "solid"
Displacement, because it's a miss chance like concealment, but ambiguously not concealment
Freedom of Movement, because it's ambiguous what "move normally" means
Mind Blank vs. True Seeing
Nondetection vs. True Seeing and See Invisibility
Telekinesis, because violent thrust doesn't address weapon proficiencies or damage for improvised "thrown" weapons
Wall of Force, because it fails if "any object or creature" is in the way ─ this includes a flying gnat or a grain of sand if the caster tries to form it too close to the ground, but what about a speck of airborne dust?
The Alter Self & c. line: where's the knowledge of creature types coming from, and how much of that knowledge is required?

[sonofzeal]

Depending on your definition of "broken"...

In Core
Polymorph (esp. Shapechange)
Wish/Miracle
Lesser Planar Binding
Divination
Contact Other Plane
Enervation
Shadow Evocation
Geas/Quest
Disjunction
Gate
Astral Projection
Time Stop
Rope Trick
???

Out of Core
Shivering Touch
Celerity
Genesis
Power Word: Pain
Streamers
???

...now, given that non-Core has many times more spells than Core overall, the broken-to-nonbroken ratio is completely out of whack. The phrase you're responding to is an exaggeration, yes, but it's one based on a solid grain of truth.

[Eldariel]

Simulacrum and Planar Binding-line are also completely and utterly busted. That is to say, "Why Are We Playing"-busted. Contact Other Plane is also up there, since getting to 22 Int for safe COPs is fairly easy and then your character has obscene amounts of information. Something to the tune of every single time you're seriously threatened and how to deal with the threat with least resources expended. Astral Projection can also amount to something of invulnerability; whether you consider that a problem or not is another matter entirely.

Outside Core, really, Genesis is the only "Why Are We Playing"-broken Wizard-spell, though there's definitely Consumptive Field also. Celerity is closer to Time Stop in that it gives you completely unfair options but it's still not the spell putting it all away, it's just an enabler. Arcane Fusion-loops with Celerity are really the only truly abusable way of using it, though admittedly those are slightly stupid.

[Keld Denar]

The Polymorph line and Gate are (as you've mentioned) the biggest offenders in Core.

Planar Binding says "Sup?"

I guess if you consider Gate to be the ultimate conclusion of the Planar Binding line, then that would be correct.

I mean, Lesser Planar Binding + Nightmare = infinite Astral Projection. That alone is worth something.

Grease and Glitterdust are fine, good but not THAT good, simply because they are very defined in what the upper maximum of their power is. Its the open ended spells like Polymorph and Gate that are the biggest offenders.



In Core
Divination
Enervation
Shadow Evocation
Geas/Quest
Time Stop
Rope Trick


How are these broken? Divination is no COP, and certainly no Commune, especially considering its casting time. Enervation is good, just like Glitterdust is good, but not "broken". Shadow Evocation has utility, but its certainly not the best 4th level spell out there. Geas/Quest have non-trivial casting times and even the penalties for not performing are something that any party above 5th or 6th level could ignore. Time Stop is good, but compare it to Shapechange? Thats...kinda a stretch. And Rope Trick, how is Rope Trick broken?

[TakeABow]

While I can't think of anything other than knock at the moment, anything that allows the wizard to replace other classes should be banned.

Find Traps, Invisibility, and Knock (Rogue). Polymorph, Divine Power, Summon Monster/Nature's Ally (Fighter)

Pretty much every cool ability that has been printed on a non-casting class somewhere in 3.5 can be had as a spell as well. Poor design, if you ask me.

[Eldariel]

Also haven't touched upon Shrink Item (which, when combined with removing the enhancement, can lead to very obvious applications) and Explosive Runes.

[Ernir]

When I say broken, I don't mean powerful or just overpowered; grease and glitterdust are powerful, but not broken. Instead, I'm talking about game breaking, why are we even playing, doing things that weren't meant by the designers broken.

Hmm, by that definition, uh...

2nd level:
Rope Trick (You don't get stabbed in your sleep now. Ever. Hardly the worst, but it is, I think the first step down the road of "magic changes everything".)

3rd level:
Explosive Runes (requires some logistics, but when used offensively, this changes downtime into uncapped damage).
Shrink Item (drop a purse full of shrunk boulders on someone's head)

4th level:
Minor Creation (Black Lotus Extract...)
Polymorph (Hmm, in core this might actually be more "way too powerful" than "broken", actually...)

5th level:
Lesser Planar Binding (This spell line can do anything.)
Magic Jar ("Look, mommy! I'm a Balor!")

6th level:
Planar Binding (As Lesser Planar Binding, but now less restricted.)
Contingency (Get out of jail pretty much anything card. Complete with ignoring the action economy.)
Wall of Iron (Conjure it, sell it.)

7th level:
Simulacrum. (That creature that really scares you? You can now make one of those.)

8th level:
Greater Planar Binding (And now we can get Pit Fiends to top off our infinite Wishes.)
Polymorph any Object (Be who you want to be.)

9th level:
Gate (Gogo gadget Titan chain! Or something. The sky is not really a limit here.)
Astral Projection (You never have to die again.)
Shapechange (Find a monster with a nifty supernatural ability. You now have it.)






This is a "does weird stuff to the assumptions of the game" list (that is, according to my assumptions of what the assumptions are :smalltongue:), not necessarily a "powerful" list.

[Pigkappa]

Dimension Door and Teleport are someway broken too in my opinion.

When you have Teleport prepared, even if you are in the worst possible situation you can survive if you can use a Standard action, unless your opponents found a way to prevent Teleport from working (but this is kinda difficult). It's quite hard for a DM to really threaten you with something different than save or dies.

Dimension Door is likely to work that way too, and you can have it at level 7.


They would be much more balanced (and still useful in some situations) if they had casting times of 1 minute and 1 hour respectively.

[Swooper]

When you have Teleport prepared, even if you are in the worst possible situation you can survive if you can use a Standard action, unless your opponents found a way to prevent Teleport from working (but this is kinda difficult).
So, uh, Dimensional Anchor? :smalltongue:

[Pigkappa]

How often can the enemies cast Dimensional Anchor (or Anti Magic field, or similar spells/effects) and the game be still someway realistic?

[NichG]

My list of horrible brokenness favors non-core.

Core:

-Gate
-Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph any Object, Shapechange
-Miracle, Wish
-Planar Binding series
-Earthquake (no save action denial)
-Divination series ostensibly, but less so when non-omniscience of gods is taken into account
- Maze (no save, just go away for at least a round)
- Otto's Irresistable Dance (no save action denial)

Non-core:

-Tidal Wave from Sandstorm (no save action denial)
-Celerity series
-Starmantle

The irresistable stat drain series:
-Moon Bolt (when metamagicked, take 40 strength damage, save for half!)
-Shivering Ray (as above with Dex)
-Touch of Idiocy (I oneshot all animals and low-Int magical beasts)

-Empyreal Ecstasy (everyone take half damage from everything!)
-End to Strife (okay everyone, stand outside the box and fire in. If they attack us they take 70 damage per strike they make!)
-Delay Death (or 'Immunity to Death by Damage')
-Indomitability (same deal)
-That volcano spell from Faerun (its a quick city destroyer and its clear that was the intent, unlike the Locate City bomb)
-Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos (I can have 500 feats!)
-The Faerun spell that lets you permanently delete abilities from the target.
-Wings of Cover (hey look, I'm immune to one attack a round)
-Sadism/Masochism (exploitable with Delay Death or Indomitability to gain brokenly huge bonuses to skill checks)

There are a couple more, but those are the ones that spring to mind first.

[Swooper]

Depends on the game. In a campaign where you mostly fight humanoids, spellcasting enemies are pretty common.

I'm with you on increasing the casting time on teleport though, bumping it up to 10 minutes in the spellcasting homebrew I'm working on (along with requiring knowledge of a target teleportation circle, 4E style). I'd rather reduce the range on DD than increase the casting time, though.

[Eldariel]

So, uh, Dimensional Anchor? :smalltongue:

It's unfortunately a terrible spell; you need to hit a touch attack, and to pass SR to do anything with it. And it's a 4th level spell. Guess what else you could do with a spell slot and action if you manage both? That's right, kill the guy; dead can't teleport. Dimensional Lock is another story, though. It's actually good at what it does, that is generating unescapable deathcages.

[Ernir]

How often can the enemies cast Dimensional Anchor (or Anti Magic field, or similar spells/effects) and the game be still someway realistic?
What? You're talking about people teleporting, and Dimensional Anchor is supposed to be the unrealistic part? :smalltongue:

If you're referring to "how often do enemies prepare Dimensional Anchor?"... well, they do so every time they intend to have a fight to the death with someone who can teleport.

[Doug Lampert]

In core, the only real broken spells I would list would be the polymorph line, and Gate, possibly wish as well depending on how the DM plays it.

Simulacrum wants a word with you. It says that a level 13 wizard can have a slave able to cast wish three times a day if he can get a single hair from an Efreet. And what do you know! The Planar Binding line is calling spells, one hair is a pretty minor service too. You can also have a slave half Elmister's level or whatever MarySue infests your world. Based on the spell as written it works for gods.

Planar ally also wants a word with you, as does planar binding.

Astral projection is "why are we playing" bad, especially if combined with Genesis.

[Jack Zander]

I am monitoring this thread. I'd like to know what spells people consider completely broken as well as spells that are too powerful for their level.

[Pigkappa]

What? You're talking about people teleporting, and Dimensional Anchor is supposed to be the unrealistic part? :smalltongue:

If you're referring to "how often do enemies prepare Dimensional Anchor?"... well, they do so every time they intend to have a fight to the death with someone who can teleport.

Nope: they do so every time they intend to have a fight to the death with someone who can teleport only if they can prepare Dimensional Anchor.

Most monsters from the MM can't do that.


Also, increasing Teleport's casting time does help in making it worse for running away, but they can still carry a Teleport scroll (which would activate as a standard action IIRC) just in case. :smallfrown:

[Keld Denar]

Activating spell completion magic items (such as scrolls) takes the same amount of time as casting the spell. So...no, if you made teleport take 10 minutes to cast, a scroll of teleport would also take 10 minutes to cast.

[Jack Zander]

Also, increasing Teleport's casting time does help in making it worse for running away, but they can still carry a Teleport scroll (which would activate as a standard action IIRC) just in case. :smallfrown:

I had to look this up becuase I couldn't believe such an oversight. This changes everything! All summons can now be cast as standard actions. Astral Projection, Contact other Plane, Imbue with Spell Ability, Identify, Hallucinatory Terrain, Fabricate (for the snow and ice sculpture) + Simulacrum, Mnemonic Enhancer, Move Earth, Raise Dead, Reincarnate, Resurrection, True Resurrection, Symbol of xxxx can all be cast during combat and used as they were never intended.


Activating spell completion magic items (such as scrolls) takes the same amount of time as casting the spell. So...no, if you made teleport take 10 minutes to cast, a scroll of teleport would also take 10 minutes to cast.

Source please. Here's the one I found:



This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

[SPoD]

It's not in the class of too powerful per se, but I hate True Seeing for its utter obliteration of the Illusion school after a certain point. One 5th-level cleric spell should not invalidate an entire school of magic. So I guess it counts in a "Why am I even playing an Illusionist?" way.

[nedz]

Find Traps, Invisibility, and Knock (Rogue). Polymorph, Divine Power, Summon Monster/Nature's Ally (Fighter)

Pretty much every cool ability that has been printed on a non-casting class somewhere in 3.5 can be had as a spell as well. Poor design, if you ask me.

Interesting Idea:
Why not just give such spells an XP cost ?
But perhaps only if used to steal another characters role ?

[MeeposFire]

I had to look this up becuase I couldn't believe such an oversight. This changes everything! All summons can now be cast as standard actions. Astral Projection, Contact other Plane, Imbue with Spell Ability, Identify, Hallucinatory Terrain, Fabricate (for the snow and ice sculpture) + Simulacrum, Mnemonic Enhancer, Move Earth, Raise Dead, Reincarnate, Resurrection, True Resurrection, Symbol of xxxx can all be cast during combat and used as they were never intended.



Source please. Here's the one I found:

I think it is in the Rules Compendium.

[Z3ro]

Simulacrum wants a word with you. It says that a level 13 wizard can have a slave able to cast wish three times a day if he can get a single hair from an Efreet. And what do you know! The Planar Binding line is calling spells, one hair is a pretty minor service too. You can also have a slave half Elmister's level or whatever MarySue infests your world. Based on the spell as written it works for gods.

Planar ally also wants a word with you, as does planar binding.

Astral projection is "why are we playing" bad, especially if combined with Genesis.

I completely disagree with the idea that either simulacrum or planar binding/ally are broken. Yes, they are efficient force multipliers that allow access to abilities that the caster might not have. However, they simply give you more firepower; they don't change the fundemental way the game is played. When you compare the power of a spell like gate to a planar binding spell, the difference is quite obvious.

[Draz74]

Blasphemy / Dictum / Holy Word / Word of Chaos aren't as bad as Gate or Shapechange, but they're worse than lots of other spells that have been mentioned on this thread. (They're not so bad if a PC uses them without caster level boosts, but if caster level boosts come into play or the DM uses them ... yikes.)

[Keld Denar]

Rules Compendium clarified this. It's now the casting time of the spell. That means you can use swift spell items as a swift action, and items that take longer. Its aluded to in this statement:


Using Items
To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly. In most cases, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity.

Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
But the RC further expounds on it.

EDIT:

I completely disagree with the idea that either simulacrum or planar binding/ally are broken. Yes, they are efficient force multipliers that allow access to abilities that the caster might not have. However, they simply give you more firepower; they don't change the fundemental way the game is played. When you compare the power of a spell like gate to a planar binding spell, the difference is quite obvious.
If you are using Planar Binding or Simulacrum like a summoned monster, you aren't tapping its full potential. Its when you are using them to circumvent expensive material or XP components of high level spells that you are really breaching their power. A Simulacrum of an Efreet gives you 3 wishes, 3 FULL STRENGTH WISHES. Oh, and since the Simulacrum is under your complete control, you don't even have to worry about Wish corruption.

Similarly, Lesser Planar Binding can get you a Nightmare. Hop on it, order it to Plane Shift you to...anywhere, and then order it to Astrallly Project you back onto the Prime. Now continue adventuring as normal. If you die...oh well, you get sent back to that plane where you bind another Nightmare, reload from the nearest save point, and keep trying. Astral Projection has no duration, so you could keep it up as long as you want. Since it's a SLA, it doesn't cost you or the Nightmare anything, so...free.

[Jack Zander]

Find Traps, Invisibility, and Knock (Rogue). Polymorph, Divine Power, Summon Monster/Nature's Ally (Fighter)

Pretty much every cool ability that has been printed on a non-casting class somewhere in 3.5 can be had as a spell as well. Poor design, if you ask me.

I wouldn't be so quick to invalidate a rogue with invisibility. True seeing or see invisibility or dispel magic or anti-magic field can wipe away that invisibility pretty quickly. The same cannot be said for the Hide skill. And summons are okay with me, but they need to be limited in some way. Either their power needs to be reduced, or the spellcaster should have to concentrate in order to keep the summon on the material plane.


Rules Compendium clarified this. It's now the casting time of the spell. That means you can use swift spell items as a swift action, and items that take longer.

Totally lame. I was all ready to destroy the next high level campaign that someone ran.

[Gavinfoxx]

I completely disagree with the idea that either simulacrum or planar binding/ally are broken. Yes, they are efficient force multipliers that allow access to abilities that the caster might not have. However, they simply give you more firepower; they don't change the fundemental way the game is played. When you compare the power of a spell like gate to a planar binding spell, the difference is quite obvious.

My simulacrumed Noble Djinn with 'real' major creation for any plant matter as well as 3 / day Wish would like to have a word with you.

[Z3ro]

My simulacrumed Noble Djinn with 'real' major creation for any plant matter as well as 3 / day Wish would like to have a word with you.

But this falls into the "how are you getting said piece of Noble Djinn". And I refuse to listen to the answer of "there's some in every spell component pouch, ever".

[vikingofdoom]

@0: Eschew material: noble Djinn body parts (probably hair, or similar) have no cost, so Eschew material removes the need for it. This also makes it possible to simulacrum anything, ever, that is within the limits of the spell.

[lesser_minion]

Source please. Here's the one I found:

Actually, that text is overruled by this, from the Rules Compendium (which takes precedence):


Activating a scroll takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell on the scroll.



@0: Eschew material: noble Djinn body parts (probably hair, or similar) have no cost, so Eschew material removes the need for it. This also makes it possible to simulacrum anything, ever, that is within the limits of the spell.

Incorrect. Check the definition of a material component:


A material component is one or more physical substances that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process.

Or, in other words, the single material component for the spell consists of all of the listed material substances together -- including 100 gold pieces worth of ruby dust.

That is well beyond the limits of eschew materials.

[Jack Zander]

But this falls into the "how are you getting said piece of Noble Djinn". And I refuse to listen to the answer of "there's some in every spell component pouch, ever".


@0: Eschew material: noble Djinn body parts (probably hair, or similar) have no cost, so Eschew material removes the need for it. This also makes it possible to simulacrum anything, ever, that is within the limits of the spell.

:smallcool: Deal with it.

[Z3ro]

@0: Eschew material: noble Djinn body parts (probably hair, or similar) have no cost, so Eschew material removes the need for it. This also makes it possible to simulacrum anything, ever, that is within the limits of the spell.

:smallcool: Deal with it.

I would have to believe that in a world where getting a piece of hair from a Djinn leads to instant wishes, Djinn hair would go for more than a gold piece, thus no eschew materials.

I understand you can argue otherwise, but that road leads to drowning to heal people.

[Jack Zander]

I would have to believe that in a world where getting a piece of hair from a Djinn leads to instant wishes, Djinn hair would go for more than a gold piece, thus no eschew materials.

I understand you can argue otherwise, but that road leads to drowning to heal people.

You are trying to argue RAI as being RAW though.

[lesser_minion]

You are trying to argue RAI as being RAW though.

But as has already been demonstrated, a material component comprises one or more physical substances. If any of those costs more than 1 gp, then the spell's material components cost more than 1 gp.

Simulacrum requires 100 gp in ruby dust and a piece of the creature to be duplicated.

By RAW, what you're proposing does not work.

[Keld Denar]

You could always Planar Bind it, demand a single hair as the bound service (a simple task, should be easy to convince), and then dismiss it. Then create a Simulacrum of it and reap the SLAs with no actual creature to piss off.

[lesser_minion]

You could always Planar Bind it, demand a single hair as the bound service (a simple task, should be easy to convince), and then dismiss it. Then create a Simulacrum of it and reap the SLAs with no actual creature to piss off.

Silly 3rd edition designers, building multiple redundancies into every conceivable exploit...

[vikingofdoom]

But as has already been demonstrated, a material component comprises one or more physical substances. If any of those costs more than 1 gp, then the spell's material components cost more than 1 gp.

Simulacrum requires 100 gp in ruby dust and a piece of the creature to be duplicated.

By RAW, what you're proposing does not work.

The 100 gp of ruby dust is given as an additional requirement, not connected to the statue/hair needed. This could be argued both ways, so just using planar binding to get 1 hair from a Djinn in exchange for something (money always works) is probably the better method. You then use the copy to make more copy's, gaining as many wishes per day as you want.

[Gnaeus]

Or, for another route, I (read a scroll of) Wish for a pile of 700 hairs from noble Djinn placed neatly on the floor in front of me. If you can cast Simulacrum, you can afford the scroll.

[Jack Zander]

But as has already been demonstrated, a material component comprises one or more physical substances. If any of those costs more than 1 gp, then the spell's material components cost more than 1 gp.

Simulacrum requires 100 gp in ruby dust and a piece of the creature to be duplicated.

By RAW, what you're proposing does not work.

Ah, then we were wrong, but not for the reason that Z3ro said we were wrong. :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

Easy corruption of that wish...700 noble djinn hairs are attached to 700 noble djinn...oh, and they aren't happy to see you!

Wish is good for doing the things listed on the tin. Once you start wishing outside the box, you start wading in VERY muddy water...

[Doug Lampert]

I completely disagree with the idea that either simulacrum or planar binding/ally are broken. Yes, they are efficient force multipliers that allow access to abilities that the caster might not have. However, they simply give you more firepower; they don't change the fundemental way the game is played. When you compare the power of a spell like gate to a planar binding spell, the difference is quite obvious.

Gate gives you a servant for a few rounds. Similucrum is a lower level spell that gives you the same servant FOREVER. And it has no upper limit unlike gate.

Anything gate can do Simulcrum can do better, because you can make a slave WITH gate easily enough (one hair from a Planetar).


I would have to believe that in a world where getting a piece of hair from a Djinn leads to instant wishes, Djinn hair would go for more than a gold piece, thus no eschew materials.

I understand you can argue otherwise, but that road leads to drowning to heal people.

Fortunately I can hire someone to cast Gate for me, ONCE, and I get the hair, FOREVER. Or planar binding, or almost anything else. I mentioned Planar binding in my earlier post, this isn't an obscure or difficult thing to do.

DougL

[Frozen_Feet]

But this falls into the "how are you getting said piece of Noble Djinn". And I refuse to listen to the answer of "there's some in every spell component pouch, ever".

I think you fail to see the obvious problem here: the DM can never again challenge the party with monsters whose abilities he isn't willing to give to them. The spells means that a stunning array of tools that should only belong to the DM are now in players' use. That's how it alters the game, and that's why it's broken.

[Jack Zander]

Or, for another route, I (read a scroll of) Wish for a pile of 700 hairs from noble Djinn placed neatly on the floor in front of me. If you can cast Simulacrum, you can afford the scroll.


Easy corruption of that wish...700 noble djinn hairs are attached to 700 noble djinn...oh, and they aren't happy to see you!

Wish is good for doing the things listed on the tin. Once you start wishing outside the box, you start wading in VERY muddy water...

I'm not sure how a neat pile of hairs can be attached to 700 Djinn and still be considered a neat pile of hair.

[vikingofdoom]

Easy corruption of that wish...700 noble djinn hairs are attached to 700 noble djinn...oh, and they aren't happy to see you!

Wish is good for doing the things listed on the tin. Once you start wishing outside the box, you start wading in VERY muddy water...

Aside from the fact that creating things is pretty much exactly what wish is made for?

Relevant section:

A wish can create the following effects:
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

Are the Djinn hairs magical? Then they can be created. Are they non-magical? Then they have to cost more than 25,000 gp to be out of bounds. Perversions of the spell only occur when stepping outside its normal bounds, so thats not an issue.

Now, consider that this is probably the most wasteful method of doing this, and you can see the problem the anti-simicalcrum side has.

[Z3ro]

Gate gives you a servant for a few rounds. Similucrum is a lower level spell that gives you the same servant FOREVER. And it has no upper limit unlike gate.

Anything gate can do Simulcrum can do better, because you can make a slave WITH gate easily enough (one hair from a Planetar).

This I'm confused on; Simulacrum has a limit of twice your caster level for the creature's hit dice, same as gate. What do you mean no upper limit?

Also, simulacrum halves their hit dice, which affects their special abilities. How is that better than a full hit dice Gated creature?

[Z3ro]

I think you fail to see the obvious problem here: the DM can never again challenge the party with monsters whose abilities he isn't willing to give to them. The spells means that a stunning array of tools that should only belong to the DM are now in players' use. That's how it alters the game, and that's why it's broken.

Now this is a legitimate argument for how it alters the game and can make it broken. Though it still does not add a huge number of spells to the core list, versus the non-core list.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And Rope Trick, how is Rope Trick broken?

Quite simple, really, dear Watson.

The original dynamic of Wizard vs Fighter was "Fighter gets to hit on things all day" and "Wizards cast the spells the go Boom, but when they run out of juice, they're nothing more than commoners with no fashion sense".

That was the entire check on the Wizard's power... it runs out.

Rope Trick completely obviates this.

With Rope Trick, a Wizard can, by level 4 (with access to extend spell), or at the latest by level 8, 'go nova' every single encounter, without regard to how many spells he casts, because as soon as he gets done using everything up, he just Rope Tricks and hits the reset button on his spells.

It completely breaks the entire (supposed) check on the power of casting.

[vikingofdoom]

Simicalcrum has a lower cost, without losing spell-like abilities of the creature copied. The most notable benefit is the chaining it with noble djinn, gaining effectively infinite wishes/day, for the cost of 33.3 gp per wish, saving large amounts of money. In combat, it is less useful, but it is more useful for gathering resources.

[Gnaeus]

Easy corruption of that wish...700 noble djinn hairs are attached to 700 noble djinn...oh, and they aren't happy to see you!

Wish is good for doing the things listed on the tin. Once you start wishing outside the box, you start wading in VERY muddy water...

1. That isn't a valid corruption of that wish. Wish cannot duplicate 700 gate spells. If it could, whenever one was fighting armies of demons, one could Wish for 700 solar hairs, attached to their relevant solars.

2. It is from a scroll, not from a hostile entity like a Efreet. there isn't any reason for a corruption of that scale.

3. Creating non-magical items is (as mentioned) listed on the tin.
"# Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
# Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item."

If your DM is going to twist things that are clearly, easily within the power of wish, creating endless Simulacra of Djinn to make more wishes is only going to cause you more pain.

[Frozen_Feet]

Quite simple, really, dear Watson.

The original dynamic of Wizard vs Fighter was "Fighter gets to hit on things all day" and "Wizards cast the spells the go Boom, but when they run out of juice, they're nothing more than commoners with no fashion sense".

That was the entire check on the Wizard's power... it runs out.

Rope Trick completely obviates this.

With Rope Trick, a Wizard can, by level 4 (with access to extend spell), or at the latest by level 8, 'go nova' every single encounter, without regard to how many spells he casts, because as soon as he gets done using everything up, he just Rope Tricks and hits the reset button on his spells.

It completely breaks the entire (supposed) check on the power of casting.
Yeah, because stopping to rest for 8 hours after every encounter is a totally reasonable thing to do... oh wait.

Rope trick does not break the rest mechanic nearly as bad as people say, because using it to implement 15 minute work days squanders resources. Wizard rarely needs to go nova in any single encounter - spreading their resources over greater time would more often than not allow them to achieve more in those 8 hours than using Rope Trick to rest.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, because stopping to rest for 8 hours after every encounter is a totally reasonable thing to do... oh wait. Reasonable? Who said anything about reasonable. These are players, good associate. Since when have they ever done something as banal as being reasonable?


Rope trick does not break the rest mechanic nearly as bad as people say, because using it to implement 15 minute work days squanders resources. Wizard rarely needs to go nova in any single encounter - spreading their resources over greater time would more often than not allow them to achieve more in those 8 hours than using Rope Trick to rest.

The problem is perhaps a bit more vast than that...

I'm not talking about a Wizard going Nova and using up every magical resource at their command in one encounter. I'm talking about being able to spend magic without regard to needing more later, because whenever he *does* run out, he can just Rope Trick.

You never have to say 'Hmm... I've only got one 3rd level spell left. Should I cast Stinking Cloud now, or should I hold off'. With Rope Trick available to you, the answer is always 'use it now, because I can always Rope Trick afterwords if I have too many spell slots gone'.

This lets wizards use combos every single encounter that make the rest of the party cry with uselessness.

[Frozen_Feet]

Yes, the game world will sit completely still for 8 hours while the wizard rests to recover their spells... oh wait.

Time is one of the most valuable resource in D&D. Resting after each encounter, regardless of whether it's safe, squanders it. It's a nice theoretical construct, but in practice it works just as well as being awake for only 15 minutes at time in the real world would - not at all.

[sonofzeal]

Yeah, because stopping to rest for 8 hours after every encounter is a totally reasonable thing to do... oh wait.

Rope trick does not break the rest mechanic nearly as bad as people say, because using it to implement 15 minute work days squanders resources. Wizard rarely needs to go nova in any single encounter - spreading their resources over greater time would more often than not allow them to achieve more in those 8 hours than using Rope Trick to rest.
It does, however, make it extremely difficult for a DM to stop it. Before Rope Trick, you could ambush them at night, or do other things to make resting more difficult in the middle of a quest. One cannot simply take a nap in the Orc stronghold. But with Rope Trick, you can, and the DM has very little way to stop you. Just about the only thing he can do is to have every quest zone be Dimensionally Locked (implausible and frustrating), or disincentivise it by making stuff happen while the PCs are out of the action, which essentially means the DM is playing against himself. Both ways are imperfect.

As for "squandering resources", I call BS. If aforementioned Orc stronghold was intended to be handled by one full spell pyramid, and suddenly the mage gets to completely recharge a couple times in the middle, that dramatically changes the whole dynamic. Top level spells don't have to be conserved, and magic-heavy tactics become far more viable. Mages invariably become more powerful when spell slots are cheapened, and access to Rope Trick certainly cheapens them. It won't work if the PCs are defending a key point, or doing something time-sensitive, but even then it guarantees uninterrupted sleep, whereas without it a paranoid mage might have to save spells in case he won't get his 8 hours rest.

Rope Trick won't break every game, but it goes a huge way towards taking the limiters off spellcasters.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, the game world will sit completely still for 8 hours while the wizard rests to recover their spells... oh wait. It really doesn't matter if it does or if it doesn't. Nothing is going to stop him anyways.


Time is one of the most valuable resource in D&D. Resting after each encounter, regardless of whether it's safe, squanders it. It's a nice theoretical construct, but in practice it works just as well as being awake for only 15 minutes at time in the real world would - not at all. Unfortunately, that is not correct in the slightest, but thanks for trying.

You see, that's exactly what the actually rich people* do. I spend 15 minutes checking up on my investments (be they whatever they are), then have the rest of my day to myself. That's one of the whole points in getting rich, is that you get your time back.

* By 'rich', I'm not talking about people who actually work for a living, even the C level executives, since they're generally even poorer than your middle-class worker since they live off of an even higher percentage of their income, generally over 100%. I'm talking about those who understand the concept of passive income streams.

Which is exactly what a Wizard does with magic. He gets magic on a daily basis. He can be as spendthrift with it as he wants to be, because there will always be more. Cash, contrary to popular belief, is not king. It is an asset. Cash flow is king, because with cash flow, you have a sustainable life, and without it, you are eventually going to be bankrupt.

[Frozen_Feet]

It also gives opposition 8 hours to get reinforcements or otherwise prepare for counter-attack. Or gives any time-sensitive plot effects a chance to time out.

Let's take the stronghold. Suppose it's comprised of 4 encounters, meant to be tackled by one "spell pyramid". The wizard goes in and novas one, then goes to sleep. When he wakes up, will there still be 3 encounters left?

If there are, the DM has just failed in playing the game world in an organic way. Either the orcs have gotten hell out of dodge, or they're all there waiting, meaning that the wizard might need to effectively tackle 3 encounters at once. Due to the way action economy works, a spell pyramid that would've been able to take those encounters down separately might not be potent enough to take them all at once.

Just because resting is safe does not make it a good option.



You see, that's exactly what the actually rich people* do. I spend 15 minutes checking up on my investments (be they whatever they are), then have the rest of my day to myself. That's one of the whole points in getting rich, is that you get your time back.


But the wizard is doing the opposite. Instead of having the rest of the day for himself, he uses up 8 hours of it to do something that is often needless and counter-productive. He isn't getting the time back. He's wasting it.

[sonofzeal]

It also gives opposition 8 hours to get reinforcements or otherwise prepare for counter-attack. Or gives any time-sensitive plot effects a chance to time out.

Let's take the stronghold. Suppose it's comprised of 4 encounters, meant to be tackled by one "spell pyramid". The wizard goes in and novas one, then goes to sleep. When he wakes up, will there still be 3 encounters left?

If there are, the DM has just failed in playing the game world in an organic way. Either the orcs have gotten hell out of dodge, or they're all there waiting, meaning that the wizard might need to effectively tackle 3 encounters at once. Due to the way action economy works, a spell pyramid that would've been able to take those encounters down separately might not be potent enough to take them all at once.

Just because resting is safe does not make it a good option.
Look from the Orc side though. Their perimeter is breached, a squad of guards killed, and... nothing. No trace of the intruders anywhere. They spend several hours looking, but no sign of what happened. The remaining teams are put on high alert for a while, but as the hours tick past that urgency fades. By the time the PCs emerge Clown Car style from a broom closet too small for even one to stand comfortably, a broom closet that had already been searched repeatedly, what do you think the security's going to be like?

Or take a more traditional dungeoncrawl, where there isn't expected to be communication between sections or a timeline to follow. Or a transcontinental marathon, where the DM had planned to use nighttime encounters to prevent the mage from merely solving everything with magic.

Rope Trick always cheapens spells. That's it's primary function, and it's very very good at it. And cheapening spells breaks the game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It also gives opposition 8 hours to get reinforcements or otherwise prepare for counter-attack. Or gives any time-sensitive plot effects a chance to time out.

Let's take the stronghold. Suppose it's comprised of 4 encounters, meant to be tackled by one "spell pyramid". The wizard goes in and novas one, then goes to sleep. When he wakes up, will there still be 3 encounters left?

If there are, the DM has just failed in playing the game world in an organic way. Either the orcs have gotten hell out of dodge, or they're all there waiting, meaning that the wizard might need to effectively tackle 3 encounters at once. Due to the way action economy works, a spell pyramid that would've been able to take those encounters down separately might not be potent enough to take them all at once.

Just because resting is safe does not make it a good option.

Actually, all you've done is made a target-rich environment for the one class who can effectively use area-effect abilities. By jamming three times as many orcs into an encounter, you have not made the encounter three times as dangerous, because it just means that more orcs are going to be affected by the wizard's glitterdust/stinking cloud/grease/fireball/etc. With maybe a Web thrown in front to keep them all crammed together.

So you've turned four encounters into two equally dangerous encounters, one of which has three times the loot and xp gain. Please, sir, may I have some more?

[Frozen_Feet]

Look from the Orc side though. Their perimeter is breached, a squad of guards killed, and... nothing. No trace of the intruders anywhere. They spend several hours looking, but no sign of what happened. The remaining teams are put on high alert for a while, but as the hours tick past that urgency fades. By the time the PCs emerge Clown Car style from a broom closet too small for even one to stand comfortably, a broom closet that had already been searched repeatedly, what do you think the security's going to be like?

If one-fourth of their forces have been slaughtered, the security won't be much, because there won't be orcs. They've had eight hours to get moving. The PCs might pop back in the middle of a burning castle.

In any case, 8 hours is not long enough for security to become lax again in a reasonably disciplined outpost. And the wizard still has to repeat his trick at least twice before victory. If the orcs weren't gone the first time, they will be after the second. The wizard is blowing his chances by refusing to act in a timely manner and giving his opposition time to figure what's going on.

I also disagree on the whole "no trace of intruders" bit. Obviously, there are casualties. They know where the intruders came in. They have a rough idea where they stopped. That's barring any additional evidence the PCs might have left behind them. If you're trying to say the PCs managed to clean up completely after the wizard's nova, they wouldn't have needed that Rope Trick in the first place, in which case they just spend 8 hours dawdling about.


Actually, all you've done is made a target-rich environment for the one class who can effectively use area-effect abilities. By jamming three times as many orcs into an encounter, you have not made the encounter three times as dangerous, because it just means that more orcs are going to be affected by the wizard's glitterdust/stinking cloud/grease/fireball/etc. With maybe a Web thrown in front to keep them all crammed together.

So you've turned four encounters into two equally dangerous encounters, one of which has three times the loot and xp gain. Please, sir, may I have some more?
You're making the rather questionable assumption that just because there are thrice as many orcs, they'll be coming in neatly arranged clusters for those AoEs to target.

Just to spite you: let's assume an encounter of five orcs, arranged in a neat pile. The wizard can burn them all with one fireball. This only takes one round.

Now, lets assume an encounter of fifteen orcs, arranged in three, neat piles. The wizard can burn one group, so he'll be able to kill them all in... three rounds.

That's at least one round during which his typical party of four is fighting against considerable superior force. Two, if the orcs are smart and spread out, and/or drop other party members during their turns.

The wizard's action economy itself creates a chokepoint for nova tactics. Even if he theoretically has enough spells to wipe out the encounter, he can still use only so many during his round.

tl;dr: You're assuming optimal tactics from the wizard, while assuming worst possible from the opposition. I call shenanigans.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If one-fourth of their forces have been slaughtered, the security won't be much, because there won't be orcs. They've had eight hours to get moving. The PCs might pop back in the middle of a burning castle.

Hey guys, they took off. We win! *proceed to credits rolling*. And only had a single encounter to do it.

[Z3ro]

Hey guys, they took off. We win! *proceed to credits rolling*. And only had a single encounter to do it.

Oh crap, were's the McGuffin!

[Frozen_Feet]

Hey guys, they took off. We win! *proceed to credits rolling*. And only had a single encounter to do it.

Yes, I'm sure they like having no loot, having one-quarter the XP, and being in a burning castle. Way to go missing the point.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, I'm sure they like having no loot, having one-quarter the XP, and being in a burning castle. Way to go missing the point.

Teleport means never having to worry about falling structures again.

And does it really matter if we get one quarter of the xp if we win? Then you, as the GM, is caught in a catch 22. On the one hand, if you throw more powerful encounters at them, they'll scream about being unfair with the CR system. If not, then they're going to be leveling eventually.

Furthermore, we're in a burning castle and there's no loot? You think small, my friend.

[Frozen_Feet]

Teleport is a problem separate from Rope Trick. Also, do note that Teleport is a level 5 spell, while Rope Trick is level 2 - there are six character levels between them. (And Rope Trick last long enough to work on maybe two of those...) Note also that by level 10, when the Wizard has teleport, he has vastly more spells than he could feasibly burn down in one encounter, or, if he's build half-smartly, even in the typical four. At which point, the whole 15-minute workday via Rope Trick has been obsoleted - the wizard has little to gain from it. (Or the wizard could, you know, just Teleport to a safe area to sleep.)

(Besides, who fights orcs at level 10 anyway?)

Also, I'm not thinking small. I'm think orcs, who've taken everything remotely desireable away on their own, and the rest is ashes. It's you who is underestimating destructive quality of plain old fire.

[Yuki Akuma]

(Besides, who fights orcs at level 10 anyway?)

People who live in any decently half-realistic world where humans aren't the only ones who take class levels?

Orcs are humanoids you know. They advance by character level.

[Frozen_Feet]

People who live in any decently half-realistic world where humans aren't the only ones who take class levels?


Okay, point. :smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

Also, I'm not thinking small. I'm think orcs, who've taken everything remotely desireable away on their own, and the rest is ashes. It's you who is underestimating destructive quality of plain old fire.

Perhaps because D&D fire actually doesn't have a lot of destructive quality. The damaging objects rules work out that anything Hardness 3 or higher is actually completely impossible to damage with mundane fire (using the 'being on fire' rules of 1d6 damage/round.) In D&D, your standard wooden door is an impenetrable fire bulwark.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Perhaps because D&D fire actually doesn't have a lot of destructive quality. The damaging objects rules work out that anything Hardness 3 or higher is actually completely impossible to damage with mundane fire (using the 'being on fire' rules of 1d6 damage/round.) In D&D, your standard wooden door is an impenetrable fire bulwark.

Like, for example, the stone building they're supposedly setting it in.

Because yea... stone burns real well.

Also, you're saying that in less than eight hours (specifically, eight minus the time it takes to discover your tracks, MINUS the time it takes to determine that the result is something they need to run from), the orcs can, collectively,

a) Loot *everything* of value, down to the silver spoons and the adamantine bars in the prison

b) set a fire which can catch across the *ENTIRE* castle, which is a stone structure

and c) leave said castle with said booty in a timely and organized manner...

There isn't an organized force on this planet who could achieve this. There's no way in hell a group of orcs could.

However, even if they *could*, you've still given the party the CASTLE.

Assuming it's totally burned out, they can then go to a noble and say "Hey, want a castle? Needs some repairs, just flushed some orcs out of it. You'll be wanting to replace the beams and stuff, but that's a mere fraction of the cost of buying one. So is the 20,000 gp we're offering it for."

Like I said, you think small, if you think a burning building is of no value to players.

[Zaydos]

Rope Trick is broken because it does the same thing as an 7th level spell at 5th level with Extend Spell. Mage's Magnificent Mansion is a slightly better (okay more comfortable; for game mechanic usefulness it's an extended rope trick) Rope Trick as a 7th level spell and that's the level the ability to go "oh 15 minute work day" probably belongs. It's also the level where enemies can realistically combat it (Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic is common enough by that point) or get reinforcements (Teleport).

4th/5th level? No it doesn't belong. You fight two encounters, you rest, you finish. Now I'll admit players can still try this without rope trick (is town nearby? I go rest up in town) but Rope Trick makes so many of the counters for this unusable it does break certain things about the game.

[McSmack]

Like, for example, the stone building they're supposedly setting it in.

Because yea... stone burns real well.

Also, you're saying that in less than eight hours (specifically, eight minus the time it takes to discover your tracks, MINUS the time it takes to determine that the result is something they need to run from), the orcs can, collectively,

a) Loot *everything* of value, down to the silver spoons and the adamantine bars in the prison

b) set a fire which can catch across the *ENTIRE* castle, which is a stone structure

and c) leave said castle with said booty in a timely and organized manner...

There isn't an organized force on this planet who could achieve this. There's no way in hell a group of orcs could.

I think setting up a very specific circumstances, and claiming it as evidence of superiority over more general situations.
A) you're assuming that they haven't already looting everything of value, or that this castle is some sort of permanent orc tourist destination. Seems more realistic that the orcs would have already fought amonst themselves for the best loot so it's probably not just lying around.
B) IIRC fire was a common cause of destruction in castles. The structure itself may be mostly stone, but much of the inner fixtures are wood. They would often have rushes on the floor, which are very flammable, tapesries on the walls (also flamable) and large roaring fireplaces.
C) It's not unrealistic at all to assume that a semi-trained army could pick up and move within a few hours. Especially a group as used to the road as an army of ravaging orcs.


However, even if they *could*, you've still given the party the CASTLE.

Assuming it's totally burned out, they can then go to a noble and say "Hey, want a castle? Needs some repairs, just flushed some orcs out of it. You'll be wanting to replace the beams and stuff, but that's a mere fraction of the cost of buying one. So is the 20,000 gp we're offering it for."

Like I said, you think small, if you think a burning building is of no value to players.

Here you're assuming the the party's only goal was to clear the castle of orcs. In most games I've played/DM'd, the PC's are there for more specific reasons. Perhaps the King wants to retake the fortress, in which case letting it burn down cause the wizard needed a nap is not a winning plan. Or perhaps they need to rescue someone/something that the orcs have captured. Both of these are just as likely scenarios as yours. Both are situations where waiting 8 hours is tantamount to failure.

Basically Rope Trick is only broken if you have a DM who's too weak to screw his PC's over for abusing it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here you're assuming the the party's only goal was to clear the castle of orcs. In most games I've played/DM'd, the PC's are there for more specific reasons. Perhaps the King wants to retake the fortress, in which case letting it burn down cause the wizard needed a nap is not a winning plan. Or perhaps they need to rescue someone/something that the orcs have captured. Both of these are just as likely scenarios as yours. Both are situations where waiting 8 hours is tantamount to failure.

Basically Rope Trick is only broken if you have a DM who's too weak to screw his PC's over for abusing it.

How is it failure when the orcs are gone. The king wanted to retake the fortress. It's retaken, the orcs are gone. Huzza, now hand over the loot.

A stone building is NOT going to burn down in eight hours. Period. And that's going on the wildly unrealistic assumption that fires would spontaneously show up right where they would do the most harm the moment the PC's vanished.

That's assuming you go by Real Life and not by the actual rules, which says that the fire won't affect the building *at all*.

The problem with Rope Trick is that it's an enabler, and it's too low level for what it does. It needs to be a 4th level spell, really.

[Ernir]

Basically Rope Trick is only broken if you have a DM who's too weak to screw his PC's over for abusing it.
A spell needing "a strong DM" is a pretty bad sign.

[Draz74]

Anything gate can do Simulcrum can do better, because you can make a slave WITH gate easily enough (one hair from a Planetar).

Conveniently, some artistic D&D depictions of Planetars depict them as being stark bald ... :smallwink:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Conveniently, some artistic D&D depictions of Planetars depict them as being stark bald ... :smallwink:

They've got feathers :smallbiggrin:

[navar100]

I've seen it posted many times: All the most broken spells are in core! It'd be more balanced just to ban core! Now, I'll admit that I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all non-core sources, so I want to see if this were actually true.

Here's the thing, though. When I say broken, I don't mean powerful or just overpowered; grease and glitterdust are powerful, but not broken. Instead, I'm talking about game breaking, why are we even playing, doing things that weren't meant by the designers broken.

In core, the only real broken spells I would list would be the polymorph line, and Gate, possibly wish as well depending on how the DM plays it.

Out of core, the biggest broken spells I can think of are genesis and the celerity line, along with maybe shivering touch (broken in that the spell was written incorrectly).

So here's what I'm looking for: Instead of simply saying one side is more broken, provide examples and I want to see if one side is more clearly broken than the other.

Almost impossible to truly answer, because as already shown, most people are equating "powerful" with "broken". They have a low tolerance level for "power", so anything above their comfort level is "broken" despite you trying to emphasize that's not what you're talking about.

Not even Wish/Miracle are really broken. They have clearly defined parameters. Their issue is really one of metagame - players trying to screw over the game and DMs trying to screw over the players. Maybe in that sense they're broken, but casting Wish to say do over the previous round for everyone keeping the knowledge in character of what had happened is fine for the level Wish can first make a regular appearance.

3.0 Haste was broken. Spellcasters spamming two spells a round for 1 round per level was ridiculous. A 9th level cleric getting answers to 9 questions from Commune is not. It's not a crime against humanity for a PC to know stuff.

[NichG]

Almost impossible to truly answer, because as already shown, most people are equating "powerful" with "broken". They have a low tolerance level for "power", so anything above their comfort level is "broken" despite you trying to emphasize that's not what you're talking about.

Not even Wish/Miracle are really broken. They have clearly defined parameters. Their issue is really one of metagame - players trying to screw over the game and DMs trying to screw over the players. Maybe in that sense they're broken, but casting Wish to say do over the previous round for everyone keeping the knowledge in character of what had happened is fine for the level Wish can first make a regular appearance.

3.0 Haste was broken. Spellcasters spamming two spells a round for 1 round per level was ridiculous. A 9th level cleric getting answers to 9 questions from Commune is not. It's not a crime against humanity for a PC to know stuff.

The difference between Wish and these other examples is that Wish run by-the-book, used as a spell-like ability, can make a magic item that is arbitrarily expensive for free as one of its standard functions. +10 sword? Why bother, when you can make a +10^92 sword. Even 3.0 haste is manageable compared to that (and its worth noting that a Schism psion can basically pull off 3.0 haste).

Used with the xp component mandatory even in the face of SLA status/epic feats to ignore components/etc, Wish is not nearly as bad. Even then you still have to worry about the PCs somehow forcing a third party to pay the xp cost (i.e. dominating a single noble efreet = several million gold worth of free epic items).

[Jack Zander]

Wish isn't so bad in all its function save for one. There needs to be a gp limit on the magic items it can create. I suggest this limit to be twice the limit of mundane items, as the party could take the item and sell it for half cost then break pretty much even with the other guideline given.

[tyckspoon]

Wish isn't so bad in all its function save for one. There needs to be a gp limit on the magic items it can create. I suggest this limit to be twice the limit of mundane items, as the party could take the item and sell it for half cost then break pretty much even with the other guideline given.

That and the transport option, thanks to the ludicrously wide-open clause of "regardless of local conditions." There a place you want to be that is absolutely sealed against teleportation and plane shifting, not even attached to the Astral, completely unknown to the planes at large? Wish can put you there anyway. Target you want to kill (or talk to, IDK, why not) in that invincibly secured and inaccessible demiplane? Wish can yank him out regardless. It's the ultimate level of scry-and-die; all you need is to be able to correctly ID the creature(s) you want.

[Killer Angel]

Back on tracks.

The more obvious ones are already covered, so I'll add something else.

Orb of force.

Of course, it's not broken per se, but... Evocation school has almost only a couple of solid spells, than does almost only damage. Now, let's make evocation even more worthless: a spell of conjuration school, that does direct damage, with no ST and no SR and no DR, with duration instantaneous so it works in AMF!
Again, it's not broken, but it's clearly unfair, in favor of a school that doesn't need any further advantage.

[Drork]

Wish can be used to alter reality with a statement said aloud that the DM can then implement as they see fit. I know if I knew someone who was getting 3 wishes a day for free I wasnt happy players should always be very very very careful with what they wish for less they actually get it.
Simulacrum creates a creature at 1/2 the hit dice of the original. Any DM cant see a loop hole there big enough to stop a wish spell probably shouldnt have wish in their game.
The funny thing about all super broken spells. The are going to raise the eye brows of deities. Deities who probably have access to wish not to mention other epic level spells. The more powerful you are the easier it is to attract attention.

Seriously every spell you consider broken has its counter I am more scared of a player pulling out a wand adept using duel wand twin maximized enervates followed by duel wand quickened enervate than most of the spells mentioned here in. Average of -20 levels in one round makes for one bad day in the first round for anyone with out an awesome touch AC. Sure its a stack of gold gone but its also just about any foe you are likely to be facing in reasonable levels as well.

[peacenlove]

Seriously every spell you consider broken has its counter I am more scared of a player pulling out a wand adept using duel wand twin maximized enervates followed by duel wand quickened enervate than most of the spells mentioned here in. Average of -20 levels in one round makes for one bad day in the first round for anyone with out an awesome touch AC. Sure its a stack of gold gone but its also just about any foe you are likely to be facing in reasonable levels as well.

Enervation = 4th level spell
Defense vs Enervation = Death Ward, 4th level spell (that protects against multiple Threats)

Rope Trick = 2nd level spell
Defense against Rope Trick = ??

Wish = 9th level Spell
Defense against wish = ?? (mainly due to the open ended nature of the spell)

Thats why those spells are problematic from a DM's perspective

[Veyr]

Wish can be used to alter reality with a statement said aloud that the DM can then implement as they see fit. I know if I knew someone who was getting 3 wishes a day for free I wasnt happy players should always be very very very careful with what they wish for less they actually get it.
Simulacrum creates a creature at 1/2 the hit dice of the original. Any DM cant see a loop hole there big enough to stop a wish spell probably shouldnt have wish in their game.
The funny thing about all super broken spells. The are going to raise the eye brows of deities. Deities who probably have access to wish not to mention other epic level spells. The more powerful you are the easier it is to attract attention.

Seriously every spell you consider broken has its counter I am more scared of a player pulling out a wand adept using duel wand twin maximized enervates followed by duel wand quickened enervate than most of the spells mentioned here in. Average of -20 levels in one round makes for one bad day in the first round for anyone with out an awesome touch AC. Sure its a stack of gold gone but its also just about any foe you are likely to be facing in reasonable levels as well.
If the DM has to use a non-rules-based "counter", then that is the very definition of "broken".

[Killer Angel]

Assuming that the orcs were not in an orcish tower in the deep of the wilderness, that PC and npc cares nothing for


How is it failure when the orcs are gone. The king wanted to retake the fortress. It's retaken, the orcs are gone. Huzza, now hand over the loot.


The king: go and retake that castle for me, and bring to me the McGuffin held by the orc shaman. You can keep all the loot and I'll pay generously for the McGuffin.
The king will have his castle and all the more valuable loot (gems, gold and magic) was taken away from the fleeing orcs, togheter with the McGuffin.
Huzza, two dozen of silver forks and butterknives!

(It's not a certain scenario, but it could well be)

[Teln]

How is it failure when the orcs are gone. The king wanted to retake the fortress. It's retaken, the orcs are gone. Huzza, now hand over the loot.

Yay, now the PCs have the treasure map hidden in the library! Oh, wait, the castle burned down, and the king is now going to have to spend a lot of money to recover a castle he wanted intact.


A stone building is NOT going to burn down in eight hours. Period. And that's going on the wildly unrealistic assumption that fires would spontaneously show up right where they would do the most harm the moment the PC's vanished.
You have no clue just how fast a fire can spread, can you? Also, arson.


That's assuming you go by Real Life and not by the actual rules, which says that the fire won't affect the building *at all*.
Borked rules.

[Veyr]

Borked rules.
But that is the point!

Yes, the rules are borked. That's why things like Rope Trick are so good in the first place. You can't argue that something isn't broken because you can change the rules to make it not-so. There is no easy way within the rules of 3.5 for a low-ish level army to destroy a castle in just a few hours. They cannot simply set a fire and run.

[Z3ro]

But that is the point!

Yes, the rules are borked. That's why things like Rope Trick are so good in the first place. You can't argue that something isn't broken because you can change the rules to make it not-so. There is no easy way within the rules of 3.5 for a low-ish level army to destroy a castle in just a few hours. They cannot simply set a fire and run.

I must admit I've never understood this level of slavish devotion to The Rules (not saying you do, just that there are people who do). You know the player, the one who gets upset because his perfectly crafted, "rules legal" plans falls apart when the DM tells him he can't do it because fire doesn't work like that. I just never understood the attitude that rules trump all, rather than letting the DM be the arbiter he's supposed to be.

[Ernir]

Seriously every spell you consider broken has its counter I am more scared of a player pulling out a wand adept using duel wand twin maximized enervates followed by duel wand quickened enervate than most of the spells mentioned here in. Average of -20 levels in one round makes for one bad day in the first round for anyone with out an awesome touch AC. Sure its a stack of gold gone but its also just about any foe you are likely to be facing in reasonable levels as well.

The original premise of the thread was "broken", not "overpowered". People have been assigning those terms all kinds of meanings since the thread starts. =/

Killing stuff too fast is overpowered, but it doesn't fundamentally change the game.

[Veyr]

I must admit I've never understood this level of slavish devotion to The Rules (not saying you do, just that there are people who do). You know the player, the one who gets upset because his perfectly crafted, "rules legal" plans falls apart when the DM tells him he can't do it because fire doesn't work like that. I just never understood the attitude that rules trump all, rather than letting the DM be the arbiter he's supposed to be.
It has nothing to do with a "slavish devotion to the rules", it has everything to do with identifying the parts of the rules that are in need of change because they do not work.

Basically, this is what I'm confused on: What is the point of a thread asking about broken spells, if your response to every suggestion is going to be "That's not broken, you can always do this, that, or the other thing because you're the DM and have Rule-0." Rule-0 does not make anything not-broken - it just means you have the means to fix it. If you have to invoke Rule-0 for something to work or be fair, then it is broken.

Also, for another thing: it's one thing to change broken rules to make them fairer. It's quite another to pull them out from under a player's feet mid-game. I don't know about this fire thing (I never realized how piddly it actually was), but there are lots of situations where a DM has made an argument from "well that just doesn't make sense" where I've disagreed with him and been rather upset that he felt the need to Rule-0 my plans away. Especially if I've already taken irrevocable steps towards that plan. Most especially if there was no warning, even though my character would presumably have known that the rules don't work that way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I must admit I've never understood this level of slavish devotion to The Rules (not saying you do, just that there are people who do). You know the player, the one who gets upset because his perfectly crafted, "rules legal" plans falls apart when the DM tells him he can't do it because fire doesn't work like that. I just never understood the attitude that rules trump all, rather than letting the DM be the arbiter he's supposed to be.

I think we need to define 'broken', to be able to continue to discuss these spells which we consider 'broken'.

My definition of 'broken': Any game effect which requires Rule 0 to avoid breaking the mechanics of the game to the point where the game no longer functions as intended.

What you are talking about is the very definition of why I consider Rope Trick to be broken. You need to use GM Fiat to keep it from working. That is MY definition of Broken.

This is why Wish is inherently broken, because it requires GM Fiat in order to function. This is why Shapechange is broken, because without the GM limiting the sources available to the player, it *will* break the game. Up to, and including, a weaker version of Pun Pun.

If you have to make a house rule, or arbitrarily change the way the game works, in order to mitigate the effect a spell has on your campaign, then that spell is broken for your campaign.

And that's the description of everything that has been proposed as a solution to the use of rope trick... either a house rule, or arbitrarily changing the way the game works.

[Z3ro]

It has nothing to do with a "slavish devotion to the rules", it has everything to do with identifying the parts of the rules that are in need of change because they do not work.

Basically, this is what I'm confused on: What is the point of a thread asking about broken spells, if your response to every suggestion is going to be "That's not broken, you can always do this, that, or the other thing because you're the DM and have Rule-0." Rule-0 does not make anything not-broken - it just means you have the means to fix it. If you have to invoke Rule-0 for something to work or be fair, then it is broken.

Also, for another thing: it's one thing to change broken rules to make them fairer. It's quite another to pull them out from under a player's feet mid-game. I don't know about this fire thing (I never realized how piddly it actually was), but there are lots of situations where a DM has made an argument from "well that just doesn't make sense" where I've disagreed with him and been rather upset that he felt the need to Rule-0 my plans away. Especially if I've already taken irrevocable steps towards that plan. Most especially if there was no warning, even though my character would presumably have known that the rules don't work that way.

Oh, my response to broken spells was never to rule 0 them. That is what I would do to handle them, but you are right in that I was trying to identify what is broken, not proposing the solutions.

And I almost never have a problem with dm-fiat, that's the reason the DM is there. If I wanted a system that always ended up the same, I'd play a video game.


I think we need to define 'broken', to be able to continue to discuss these spells which we consider 'broken'.

My definition of 'broken': Any game effect which requires Rule 0 to avoid breaking the mechanics of the game to the point where the game no longer functions as intended.

What you are talking about is the very definition of why I consider Rope Trick to be broken. You need to use GM Fiat to keep it from working. That is MY definition of Broken.

This is why Wish is inherently broken, because it requires GM Fiat in order to function. This is why Shapechange is broken, because without the GM limiting the sources available to the player, it *will* break the game. Up to, and including, a weaker version of Pun Pun.

If you have to make a house rule, or arbitrarily change the way the game works, in order to mitigate the effect a spell has on your campaign, then that spell is broken for your campaign.

And that's the description of everything that has been proposed as a solution to the use of rope trick... either a house rule, or arbitrarily changing the way the game works.

That is my definition of broken; things that make the game work not as intended. By that definition, rope trick can be broken, as it removes limits on spellcasters. Now, rope trick is not so bad as something like wish, as the DM can counter this without fiating (i.e. changing monster behavior).

[Killer Angel]

Also, for another thing: it's one thing to change broken rules to make them fairer. It's quite another to pull them out from under a player's feet mid-game. I don't know about this fire thing (I never realized how piddly it actually was), but there are lots of situations where a DM has made an argument from "well that just doesn't make sense" where I've disagreed with him and been rather upset that he felt the need to Rule-0 my plans away.

My impression is that part of this (heavy) derailment, was due to a teoric situation, where a DM shouldn't pretend that someone (maybe with a dozen of flask of oil) can set a castle on fire (a structure with wall of stone, but full of tapestries, wooden furnitures, wooden roofs, maybe a stable with straw or a library), only because it isn't explicitly supported by RAW. Which is a different thing that pulling something out from nothing, only to screw the smart players and their characters in the rope trick.

Unless, of course, I'd lose something in the debate.

[Doc Roc]

It has nothing to do with a "slavish devotion to the rules", it has everything to do with identifying the parts of the rules that are in need of change because they do not work.

Basically, this is what I'm confused on: What is the point of a thread asking about broken spells, if your response to every suggestion is going to be "That's not broken, you can always do this, that, or the other thing because you're the DM and have Rule-0." Rule-0 does not make anything not-broken - it just means you have the means to fix it. If you have to invoke Rule-0 for something to work or be fair, then it is broken.


Mad props, Veyr. I find this to be very well said.
Good rules don't need fixing.

[Curmudgeon]

Broken (i.e., mechanically unsound) in core: ...

The original premise of the thread was "broken", not "overpowered". People have been assigning those terms all kinds of meanings since the thread starts. =/
I tried to establish a distinction there early on in this thread, but it failed to catch on. :smallsigh:

[lesser_minion]

it just means you have the means to fix it. If you have to invoke Rule-0 for something to work or be fair, then it is broken.

That is not strictly true -- the rules simply cannot be comprehensive, and it's often better to fall back to DM judgement than it is to waste six hundred pages trying. An example is the rule against rogues sneak attacking targets whose vitals are out of reach -- while it's absolutely trivial to work out whether it's the case or not on a case-by-case basis, the rules simply cannot hope to specify it in any real detail.

And of course, 'fairness' is only desirable when a situation actually is fair. A 1st level commoner should have a hard time killing a great wyrm force dragon.

Broken things are generally holes (places where the rules should cover something, but fail to do so properly) and quirks (places where the rules produce a result that would be nonsensical in the world they are intended to model, such as a character using a tiny dagger to shatter the planet).

[Doc Roc]

That is not strictly true -- the rules simply cannot be comprehensive, and it's often better to fall back to DM judgement than it is to waste six hundred pages trying. A good example is the rule against rogues sneak attacking targets whose vitals are out of reach -- while it's absolutely trivial to work out whether it's the case or not on a case-by-case basis, the rules simply cannot hope to specify it in any real detail (I'm told that a lot of DMs who know about that rule houserule it away, but usually only because "rogues have a hard enough time as it is" or some such).

And of course, 'fairness' is only desirable when a situation actually is fair. A 1st level commoner should have a hard time killing a great wyrm force dragon.

Wait, why do I care if the rogue can hypothetically reach the vitals of his foe? Of course he can reach. That's what the attack roll is for. That's way below the granularity of simulation, and seems to me like a kick in the teeth for playing a short character.

Yes, of course, systems can either be complete or consistent, but there are degrees of incompleteness. And it should probably be at least approximate one of the two.

[lesser_minion]

Wait, why do I care if the rogue can hypothetically reach the vitals of his foe? That's way below the granularity of simulation, and seems to me like a kick in the teeth for playing a short character.

Ask the designers. I didn't write that rule.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ask the designers. I didn't write that rule.

The designers didn't write them either.


A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Says he has to be able to see the target well enough to pick them out. Nothing about reaching them in that paragraph.

[Savannah]

Says he has to be able to see the target well enough to pick them out. Nothing about reaching them in that paragraph.

Uh....

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

It rather specifically does say that (although it's kinda buried).

[MeeposFire]

Well it does not actually define what "vitals" are so it is probably a reference to your reach and that is all.

[Larpus]

Well, considering the "broken" vs. "overpowered" argument, I think that Rope Trick is more overpowered or "broken in certain circumstances" at most, since there are so many situations where it simply would be no good (at least with the DMs I've played time is usually essential and/or what the group is after is either something in possession of the enemies or info on the enemies themselves, in which case they fleeing is a failure).

Another thing to consider that, while not in the rules, is just common sense, just like a character is assumed to be breathing even if no one states that: In order to recover the used spell slots, the spellcaster needs a "good night's sleep", which means 8 hours of absolute rest, which won't happen to someone who overslept too much lately and is more likely to just lie on his own portable dimension for hours awake and unable to rest, thus not regaining his spell slots.

[sonofzeal]

RE: "broken" vs "overpowered"


No spell breaks the game in every application. Gate can summon an Orc. Shapechange can replicate a goblin. Wish can be used for things that don't involve more wishes. If we're going to define "broken" in a non-trivial sense, then, it has to take that into account. A broken spell is one that has the potential to break the game, and does so in circumstances one could reasonably expect to encounter at some point in a normal game.

Rope Trick, for example, I'd still call "broken". It doesn't break the game as easily as Gate/Shapechange/Wish, but it does break the game far more easily than any other 2nd level spell I can think of. One can reasonably expect to encounter situations where there isn't a time crunch, and where doubling/tripling/etc your number of available spells will render otherwise-difficult quests easy. In those situations, it fundamentally alters the gameplay dynamic - it "breaks the game". Not as often as Gate/Shapechange/Wish, and not as badly either, but it still has the potential to radically alter the experience by removing limiters on spells-per-day. And it's only a 2nd level spell, accessible even at low levels and pocket change at mid levels. Gate/Shapechange/Wish only really do their damage very late on, and that limits the damage they cause somewhat.



Glitterdust, by contrast, is merely overpowered. A stealth-beater is reasonable at that level. A temporary-blinder is reasonable at that level. Both, in a nice area, is overkill. But it doesn't break the game, it just makes invisibility slightly less powerful. You'd have to be in a really bizarre campaign for the existence of Glitterdust to completely define the gameplay experience. It's "overpowered", but not "broken".

[stainboy]

I'll throw in for Plane Shift. It's simply impossible to prepare enough game material for everywhere the PCs could go with it. Going to Avernus should, at the very least, require more effort than walking down the street. Planescape is all about plane traveling and it still had to severely limit Plane Shift.

Also because it's on the cleric list as a 5th level spell, so the party gets it during the "playable" level range and without making any conscious choice to take it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, even if you ARE playing fair and not having fifteen minute adventuring days, it still completely obviates needing to set watches and possibility of nighttime ambush.

[Larpus]

Also, even if you ARE playing fair and not having fifteen minute adventuring days, it still completely obviates needing to set watches and possibility of nighttime ambush.
In all fairness, that is sort of the point of the spell.

Plus, its window can still be viewed by something that sees invisible stuff and/or reacts to Detect Magic, a successful spellcraft check of the opposing party can mean they can get an ambush ready for the heroes as soon as they leave the space.

Still, yeah, overall a great way to avert night ambushes and the such, while not being very clear if that was an intended use.

But I still consider it more "overpower" or "broken on occasion" than just broken.

[sonofzeal]

In all fairness, that is sort of the point of the spell.

Plus, its window can still be viewed by something that sees invisible stuff and/or reacts to Detect Magic, a successful spellcraft check of the opposing party can mean they can get an ambush ready for the heroes as soon as they leave the space.

Still, yeah, overall a great way to avert night ambushes and the such, while not being very clear if that was an intended use.

But I still consider it more "overpower" or "broken on occasion" than just broken.
My argument was that "broken on occasion" is, by necessity, the very definition of "broken".

Even Planar Sheppard has non-exploitive cases.

[Larpus]

My argument was that "broken on occasion" is, by necessity, the very definition of "broken".

Even Planar Sheppard has non-exploitive cases.
Good point.

Though I just wanted to put it as "much less offensive than most other options", especially when it dims in usefulness as the levels go by.

[sonofzeal]

Good point.

Though I just wanted to put it as "much less offensive than most other options", especially when it dims in usefulness as the levels go by.
It's less gamebreaking than Shapechange, certainly. But it is also far, far more accessible. And it serves its function just as well higher up. A lvl 15 Wizard will likely still be using it regularly, for exactly the same purpose.

A game where Shapechange is banned is going to be identical to a normal game in at least 95% of cases. It simply doesn't come up that much, and only breaks the game at a point where the game is already breaking for a dozen other reasons. Adding or removing Rope Trick, on the other hand, will significantly change many, many games - I dare say most. Banning Rope Trick alters one of the fundamental dynamics of the game, and makes mages far less reliable since it suddenly becomes much harder to guarantee a good night's sleep.

Overall, I'd say Rope Trick has a much more significant impact on gameplay than Shapechange does, in a majority of campaigns. And it's going to be "offensive" in many of those, ranging between "overpowered" at a minimum to "broken" in many cases.

That's enough for me to call the spell broken.

[Veyr]

What about changing Rope Trick's duration so you can't stay in it all night: that obviously fixes the problem, but does it relegate the spell to worthlessness?

[Infernalbargain]

What about changing Rope Trick's duration so you can't stay in it all night: that obviously fixes the problem, but does it relegate the spell to worthlessness?

Not worthless, but too situational to be regularly used. Mostly to just disappear for a little while. While invis can do the same, it does hide the entire party with a single casting.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not worthless, but too situational to be regularly used. Mostly to just disappear for a little while. While invis can do the same, it does hide the entire party with a single casting.

But if it is being used to hide from opponents, they can simply camp out and wait for it to wear off, since they can't move the entrance at all. At least while invisible, they can move.

[Gnoman]

I altered Rope Trick in my campaign so that it didn't allow perfect rest, and you couldn't teleport out of it. In other words, while it counts as sleeping for the purposes of not being tired, you don't heal or regain spells. It's still useful if you need to get away for a while to burn some charges off a wand of CLW or wait for the duration of a spell to time out, but it doesn't screw things up as bad.

[Infernalbargain]

But if it is being used to hide from opponents, they can simply camp out and wait for it to wear off, since they can't move the entrance at all. At least while invisible, they can move.

Depends on the nature of the situation. If they see you cast it and can correctly identify the spell, then it's reasonable for them to camp there. If not, they should behave as if you pulled off a good hide check. They'll conduct a thorough search and move on. In order for me to rule that they enemy camps out at your entrance, they need reason to believe that you rope tricked in the area, and it'll have to be more than just "we lost them". If the party found themselves at a dead end, then I'd allow the camp. It isn't guaranteed that their entrance is going to get camped.

[Larpus]

I think that it does shove it pretty close to useless.

I mean, given the fact that every person must climb the rope one after the other, on an average 4 person party it means taking about 6 rounds to escape (1 to cast the spell, 1 for each person to climb and 1 more to pull the rope), or 36 seconds, which means that unless you're running away from really sluggish creatures, chances are they'll at least see as you pull the rope and close the dimensions; and then having a spellcaster among them will pretty much mean he or she will know which spell is it and that they can just camp 'till everyone gets out.

So, the way I see it, it's a pretty weak escape spell.

Though it will still be useful if the condition for it is "the caster must be awake" (sort of a Concentration check that you automatically pass as long as you're awake), so it can be used to scribe scrolls or the such or give emergency medical care to someone in need and even for rest, but not for the caster, which is mainly what makes it broken.

[Veyr]

Though it will still be useful if the condition for it is "the caster must be awake" (sort of a Concentration check that you automatically pass as long as you're awake), so it can be used to scribe scrolls or the such or give emergency medical care to someone in need and even for rest, but not for the caster, which is mainly what makes it broken.
That is an interesting idea.

EDIT: Eh, on second thought — all it takes is a Rogue with UMD and a Wand of CL 9 Rope Trick to make it so the caster can sleep again. Maybe make it so no one can sleep in it? Or you just can't regain spells in it?

[Firechanter]

Or maybe just leave well enough alone? Really, there's so many threads devoted or derailed to this that I am tempted to bookmark these boards as "The Rope Trick Forum". As I've pointed out before, Rope Trick is _supposed_ to be a convenient "Save Game" feature, including the ability to regain spells.

If you deny the application of RT to regain spells, players _will_ find another way to rest, and most likely one that doesn't involve setting up campfire guards in a high-threat zone. If you want to limit resource refresh, you must impose a time limit. And that will work with or without RT.

[lesser_minion]

The problem with all of the in-rules solutions that get proposed for Rope Trick -- strings of final boss fights; dynamic adventures; and high-stakes-short-fuse -- is really the same: none of those things would be necessary to having a fun adventure if Rope Trick and its relatives did not exist.

When one spell heavily limits the scope of your games, you have a problem on your hands.

[Yora]

My problem with rope trick is, that it completely violates all rules of natures as a humble 1st level spell. It just doesn't seem appropriate for 1st level wizards to cast spells that warp inter-dimensional space. The next thing that does something similar is Genesis, which is 9th level.

But I played 3rd Ed. since the first day and not once have I seen any player even aknowledging that a spellcaster in the group could possibly learn it.

[Firechanter]

This is just a minor nitpick, but RT is a 2nd level spell, so the wizard gains access at 3rd level. However, 3 hours of RT per day won't be interesting veryoften. But yeah, you start to see why wizards go bragging about their ability to "alter the fabric of space and time in the blink of an eye" and so forth.

Edit/P.S.:
If RT is an offender by giving lowlevel characters powers that should be highlevel, then I say Fly and Mass Fly are even more so. The spells are not broken per se, but they do create an entirely different game experience than in other systems, where the Fly equivalents are more limited and/or highlevel.

[Aricandor]

Or take out Rope Trick entirely and make them use Magnificent Mansion and its cousin, which seem far more intended to be used in tha "rest and recharge" kind of way. :smallsmile:

Other spells may be greater offenders in other areas, but it's still strangely low level for such a convenience.

[lesser_minion]

To be honest, at least some of the spells and items that exist solely to trivialise mundane concerns could probably be dispensed with safely, even though they aren't broken.

What's the point in having rules for starvation, thirst, exposure, encumbrance, and convalescence when every single one of those concerns can be almost completely eliminated by spells that become available before even breaking 5th level?

There are even spells for dealing with mundane concerns that the rules simply don't mention anyway, such as equipment maintenance, cooking, and cleanliness.

[Veyr]

If RT is an offender by giving lowlevel characters powers that should be highlevel, then I say Fly and Mass Fly are even more so. The spells are not broken per se, but they do create an entirely different game experience than in other systems, where the Fly equivalents are more limited and/or highlevel.
Absolutely agreed. Teleport and Greater Teleport, too.

[Gnaeus]

Edit/P.S.:
If RT is an offender by giving lowlevel characters powers that should be highlevel, then I say Fly and Mass Fly are even more so. The spells are not broken per se, but they do create an entirely different game experience than in other systems, where the Fly equivalents are more limited and/or highlevel.

Disagree. That edit requires a LOT of work. Fly is actually very balanced, considering how many ways there are to get it by level 4-6.

Warlocks can do it with an invocation.
Arcanists can do it with Polymorph/alter shape (level 3).
Druids can do it with WS (level 5-6).
Druids and rangers can do it with a flying mount available by level 4.
Winged elves. The Winged template, and lots of other templates let you fly based on race. Other races can fly with one or two feats. At will, normal flight appears to be worth about ecl+1 or 1-2 feats.
I know it can be done with Psi. I'm suspect it can be done with ToM. ToB will let you do it temporarily.

3.5 really sort of assumes that someone in the party can fly by about level 6, and that everyone can fly (at least temporarily) by level 8-10. It is part of why some monsters (like dire animals and dinos) are CRed as low as they are.

[Firechanter]

Yes Gnaeus, that's exactly my _point_. I don't see what you are disagreeing with, you are confirming my previous point.
In D&D, you are _expected_ to Fly some of the time from around 5th level on - some sooner, some later - and practically most of the time at high levels. You could say the entire game becomes airbourne around mid levels. Similarly for Teleport. This has a ton of implications. It's certainly a completely different game than it would be if Fly was a 6th- or 7th-level spell, there weren't cheesy "winged" templates, and there were no Mass Fly and Teleport was a 9th level spell. This is, by the way, roughly how most other fantasy RPGs have it.

[Gnaeus]

Then I'm sorry I misunderstood.

The difference is that fly is easily accessable in a lot of ways by a lot of different classes, and the game assumes that parties can fly.

Rope Trick is only a wizard trick (or something that duplicates wizard tricks, like a scroll using rogue or STP Erudite). It in many ways opposes the 4 encounter day, which the game is supposedly designed around.

[Tehnar]

I think the default setting (and what the designers balanced the game on on) is the dungeon. I dare even say, a megadungeon.

Cramped spaces, repopulating monster population, random encounters on a hourly basis. When you think about spells from that perspective, and indeed the whole ruleset, they start to make more sense, and be "more" balanced.

Flying is not of much use if hallways are 5-10 ft high, and teleportation in some places is impossible (DM's discretion). Rope trick doesn't really matter if the monsters respawn.

[DeltaEmil]

Rope Trick matters even more if there is a strange respawning monster populuation in the megadungeon that appears out of nowhere, because only then can you actually go sleep savely before you get Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.

[peacenlove]

If RT is an offender by giving lowlevel characters powers that should be highlevel, then I say Fly and Mass Fly are even more so. The spells are not broken per se, but they do create an entirely different game experience than in other systems, where the Fly equivalents are more limited and/or highlevel.

In Pathfinder flying is slightly less convenient because you need to make an (easy) fly skill check to move forward, and progressively difficult checks for more complex move actions.
Also when you take damage and fly (using wings unfortunately) you lose altitude.
You can tweak those spells to grant wing based fly speed so they are more manageable (and not granting instant immunity to trip, another melee speciality).

[Tehnar]

Rope Trick matters even more if there is a strange respawning monster populuation in the megadungeon that appears out of nowhere, because only then can you actually go sleep savely before you get Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.

Yeah, but I personally am not irritated by the "sleep safely" portion of Rope Trick. Since, as on other threads was shown, its not such a safe place to sleep.

The respawning monsters negate the problem of the 15 min adventure day, which rope trick exacerbates.. Sure you can clear one or two rooms with ease by blowing through all your spells and then "safely" rest in the rope trick, but if those rooms are repopulated the next day, you didn't really accomplish anything.

[mikau013]

Yeah, but I personally am not irritated by the "sleep safely" portion of Rope Trick. Since, as on other threads was shown, its not such a safe place to sleep.

The respawning monsters negate the problem of the 15 min adventure day, which rope trick exacerbates.. Sure you can clear one or two rooms with ease by blowing through all your spells and then "safely" rest in the rope trick, but if those rooms are repopulated the next day, you didn't really accomplish anything.

So why not just change rope trick into, you can only rest inside a rope trick once every day. Though that could allow a wizard to do something like this: sleep in rope trick -> use all spells in a 15 min adventure day -> cast rope trick to wait -> cast another rope trick to wait -> cast a rope trick to rest. But that is no different than running away to rest etc anyway.

[DeltaEmil]

Yeah, but I personally am not irritated by the "sleep safely" portion of Rope Trick. Since, as on other threads was shown, its not such a safe place to sleep.

The respawning monsters negate the problem of the 15 min adventure day, which rope trick exacerbates.. Sure you can clear one or two rooms with ease by blowing through all your spells and then "safely" rest in the rope trick, but if those rooms are repopulated the next day, you didn't really accomplish anything.If you can advance two rooms, that's already a net gain. Of course, having respawning monsters is a video-gamey thing to do in the first place, and some would then rather go and play a real video game than a lowly pen-and-paper dungeonhack, but eh, that's the way it is.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Rope Trick, as written, breaks the entire experience point system by undermining one of the fundamental principles in calculating CR and XP gain, which is the concept of the four-encounter game day.

If you have to alter it to get it to 'work', it is, by definition, broken. Which is what this thread was originally about.

[Killer Angel]

Rope Trick, as written, breaks the entire experience point system by undermining one of the fundamental principles in calculating CR and XP gain, which is the concept of the four-encounter game day.


I wonder if we can consider "broken" also teleport. It let you come back home after your 15 minutes of work, and it's the basic for other cheesy thing (Scry 'n die, bypassing dungeons, etc)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I wonder if we can consider "broken" also teleport. It let you come back home after your 15 minutes of work, and it's the basic for other cheesy thing (Scry 'n die, bypassing dungeons, etc)

Teleport is a 5th level spell, not a 2nd. By that time, there are other counters (Dimension Lock available by 4th level spells) to that trick.

[lesser_minion]

Rope Trick, as written, breaks the entire experience point system by undermining one of the fundamental principles in calculating CR and XP gain, which is the concept of the four-encounter game day.

Actually, not so much. XP awards aren't based on the idea that the players will have four encounters before resting, they're based on the idea that the players could have four encounters before resting -- specifically, that a 'challenging' encounter will use up approximately 20% of the resources available to the party.

Neither the game nor the CR system is automatically 'broken' by the mere act of having an in-game day that didn't consist of four encounters each of EL roughly equal to the mean level of the party.

There is an assumption that the players will be trying to minimise resource expenditures because they never know when they'll be next able to rest, which Rope Trick does break, but it's not critical, since the system already has to be able to account for the possibility of players expending more resources than they wanted to.

[Tehnar]

If you can advance two rooms, that's already a net gain. Of course, having respawning monsters is a video-gamey thing to do in the first place, and some would then rather go and play a real video game than a lowly pen-and-paper dungeonhack, but eh, that's the way it is.

By respawning monsters I don't mean that the exact same set of monsters occupy the two rooms you just cleared. What I mean, that in a megadungeon, there are enough allies that the surviving minions can call to their defense and bolster the next N rooms.

Teleport has a built in clause that allows DM's to say no to it. When I DM, that usually means players can teleport to the dungeon entrance, but not when inside the dungeon (when talking about higher levels).

Try to award fixed XP (modified by player actions, RP, advancing the story etc) but not based on the encounters the PCs defeat, basically using the free form experience variant. It does wonders for the 15 min adventure day.

[ShriekingDrake]

I think Time Stop is not getting enough love/hate here. Used against a party it is pure wreckage and no fun at all to play against. In one of my groups we ban it altogether along with the celerity line of spells and the various psionic time manipulations. With that group all we allow are Haste, Nerveskitter, snake's swiftness and the like. But I think Time Stop is a beast when played well.

[Doc Roc]

I think Time Stop is not getting enough love/hate here. Used against a party it is pure wreckage and no fun at all to play against. In one of my groups we ban it altogether along with the celerity line of spells and the various psionic time manipulations. With that group all we allow are Haste, Nerveskitter, snake's swiftness and the like. But I think Time Stop is a beast when played well.

Timestop is basically a guaranteed TPK in my experience.

[Endarire]

Time stop changes the game radically. Now, you can feasibly release enough pain (summons, walls, damage over time effects, dimensional lock) to practically auto-win, and you can ready an action to time stop again after the last one ends.

[Firechanter]

Time Stop doesn't even require any creativity if all you want to do is kill enemies in range. Greater Maximize Rod + Timestop, then keep piling on Quickened / Maximized / Empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs (if necessary with Energy Substitution).

Actually being creative does not make Time Stop less deadly, either. I agree the main problem with it is that it spells TPK when used against the party. So in practice the DM mustn't use it because it is no fun sitting there and watching getting yourself slaughtered without being able to do anything. If the DM can't use it, it's only fair that the PCs don't use it, either.

[sonofzeal]

THE ONLY WAY TIME STOP SHOULD BE USED (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCw7ysE--5Q)

[JaronK]

The annoying thing about flight is that it seems some of the designers thought it should be a really high level power available only to a select few, while others seemed to think it would be extremely commonplace. Notice how little of the art has anyone but Wizards flying (if even they are doing it), and how you still have monsters like the Terrasque that are supposed to be amazing threats and yet can't hurt flying enemies at all. And notice how few classes actually have flight abilities, and how many of the items that give flight cost so much. You're supposed to trudge about and climb and jump for a lot of the game.

And then at the same time so many classes are supposed to get up close and melee things, yet so many monsters are airborne. This means flight is often a critical necessity, often at relatively low levels. A few flight items are far cheaper. As the game progressed and designers noticed how critical flight was, you started seeing flying races with no LA (Dragonborn, Raptorians), though even they don't get full flight until much later.

Really, D&D desperately needed a design bible where they decided things like "by level X, people should be able to fly. By level Y, people should be able to alter reality." They never did that and it shows.

As for teleport, it would be fixed wonderfully if you could only teleport to locations you had personally seen (so you could teleport jump with a spy glass to shorten times if you really needed, or teleport back to a major town for supplies, but you couldn't just skip any traveling adventures as soon as you got that spell).

JaronK

[stainboy]

Eh, a high fantasy game should have flight in it. You should be able to play a game with aerial combat if you want to. I just wish flight wasn't built into the wizard and druid classes, so they had to pay something to get it and they could take something else in a game where flight wasn't appropriate.

Flight is fine, nerf Tier One.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Shades of grey:

Broken:
polymorph line (actually not too bad if DM forces you to pick only 1 form to use. shapechange breaks that idea to hell though)
planar binding line
COP
Gate
Atral Projection
FoM (has no counter. RAI FoM should counter itself so you if you had it you could grapple someone else with it)
Temporal acceleration/ Time Stop (auto win / tpk)
Delay Death/indomitability/etc
starmantle (and that stupid item)
similacrum
ice assassin

Broken but usable:
shrink item (aside from tin foil tricks. there is an obscure source for simple reflex saves for things dropped iirc)
Explosive Runes (its magic, not a bomb. All sorts of RAI limitations)
DCFS (if only allowed for non psy-refable feats, not used by cohorts, nor used on class proficiencies.)
Find Traps/Knock/ other spells that make classes useless
wish (high powered uses invite the DM to twist it around)

Not broken:
miracle (the top standard for 9th level spells IMO)
Divination (make it cryptic, and true only if followed)
Enervation (melee soul-eaters do better...)
shadow evocation (similar to miracle imo)
Geas (10minute casting time near the target...)
power word line (including pain)
Shivering touch
minor/major creation
contingency (without craft contingency)
Earthquake (by 8th level spells, everything can fly)
wings of cover (it isn't total cover...)
Rope Trick (clearly too strong for a 2nd level spell even with the possible TPK by bringing a bag of holding in)
Orb of x (not fair to poor evocation school)

[Keinnicht]

How often can the enemies cast Dimensional Anchor (or Anti Magic field, or similar spells/effects) and the game be still someway realistic?

If their fighting a powerful spellcaster? Every. Single. Time.

[navar100]

Teleport already has dangers if you try to teleport to a place you know nothing about. Still, getting somewhere quickly is not a bad thing. Using Teleport is just a means to get to the main adventure already. It's not much different than the DM saying "three weeks later you arrive". If dangerous/bad things always happened whenever you traveled, then no one would be traveling. Not every road has bandits, orcs, or insert monster. Not every boat trip gets a pirate attack, a sea monster attack, or a storm. If time is not of the essence, then whether it took three weeks or three seconds to get there is irrelevant. If time is a factor but it takes three weeks to get there non-Teleport regardless, the game is over if that's too long, so traveling the three weeks or teleporting there in three seconds again makes no difference for there to be a game. For time being a factor to make a difference, the time factor has to count from when the party starts the actual adventure, not traveling to where the adventure takes place. If anything, Teleport could be a necessity because three weeks would be too long, so the party has to get there immediately.

[navar100]

Just because a monster is written in the monster manual does not mean it's in the campaign. The necessity of flight because of monsters is proportional to how much the DM forces it by use of monsters with flight. It is reasonable to expect there will exist some monsters with flight at some point over the entire campaign because it can offer an interesting challenge, but the overindulgence of it forcing the PCs to have flight or die is the DM's doing.

[JaronK]

If their fighting a powerful spellcaster? Every. Single. Time.

Problem there is that means they're wasting actions to prevent possible attacks, but a good caster can simply respond by hitting them with something else entirely. That means the action is wasted. Bad plan. Better to try and stun or daze the caster instead thus removing all actions.

JaronK

[cfalcon]

This isn't an MMO. It's ludicrous to assume wizards can't open doors, because "that's the rogue's job". Even the famed "I can punch stuff really well" still has a bunch of vulnerabilities, and polymorph actually is broken- in addition, it's also dispellable.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This isn't an MMO. It's ludicrous to assume wizards can't open doors, because "that's the rogue's job". Even the famed "I can punch stuff really well" still has a bunch of vulnerabilities, and polymorph actually is broken- in addition, it's also dispellable.

It's not an MMO, but it *IS* a multiplayer game. And it is no fun for someone who likes to play a lock-picking trap-springing Indiana Jones type, only to have the entire character concept obviated by two spells. So he gets to sit around and do nothing while the Wizard does everything solo. Yea, that's some fun...

[stainboy]

Teleport already has dangers if you try to teleport to a place you know nothing about. Still, getting somewhere quickly is not a bad thing. Using Teleport is just a means to get to the main adventure already. It's not much different than the DM saying "three weeks later you arrive".

Teleporting to the dungeon entrance or to the city halfway across the continent isn't bad. Scry + Teleport directly into the final boss room needs to not work.

One of the best judges of whether a spell is broken is how often TSR/WotC modules won't let you use them. Modules where all the dungeons are impervious to teleport, scrying, and plane travel are pretty common.

[navar100]

Teleporting to the dungeon entrance or to the city halfway across the continent isn't bad. Scry + Teleport directly into the final boss room needs to not work.

One of the best judges of whether a spell is broken is how often TSR/WotC modules won't let you use them. Modules where all the dungeons are impervious to teleport, scrying, and plane travel are pretty common.

If you don't know who the BBEG is you can't scry him. It is adventure dependant, but generally you often don't know who the BBEG is until you actually meet him in the final encounter.

[JaronK]

If you don't know who the BBEG is you can't scry him. It is adventure dependant, but generally you often don't know who the BBEG is until you actually meet him in the final encounter.

Contact Other Plane: What's the first name of the guy who's behind this invasion?

Next Casting: What race is the guy who's behind this invasion?

You get the idea. Just ask an appropriate god (god of secrets should do the trick...).

JaronK

[Doc Roc]

Contact Other Plane: What's the first name of the guy who's behind this invasion?

Next Casting: What race is the guy who's behind this invasion?

You get the idea. Just ask an appropriate god (god of secrets should do the trick...).

JaronK

Secret: Vecna adores fruitcake.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Port n Pwn is a nasty technique, but like others have said, it requires a bit of effort to actually use, since it's difficult to scry something you've never seen before.

Locally, it can be used at the start of the encounter, having seen the BBEG (Greater Prying Eyes, perhaps), then port directly around him and win in the surprise round.

[Tehnar]

Teleport...

.....You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible. .....



Which is why, villains tend to have their lairs in semidormant volcano's or are performing some powerful magical ritual to end the world (TM).

[Z3ro]

Port n Pwn is a nasty technique, but like others have said, it requires a bit of effort to actually use, since it's difficult to scry something you've never seen before.

Locally, it can be used at the start of the encounter, having seen the BBEG (Greater Prying Eyes, perhaps), then port directly around him and win in the surprise round.

Maybe it's just me, but my BBEG tend to start around 7-8 levels higher than the party, with the assumption that the party will gain 3-4 levels getting to them. If the party wants to teleport directly to him, it's not the BBEG that's getting the pwning.

[Boci]

Contact Other Plane: What's the first name of the guy who's behind this invasion?

Next Casting: What race is the guy who's behind this invasion?

You get the idea. Just ask an appropriate god (god of secrets should do the trick...).

JaronK

Isn't contact outer planes yes and no answers only?

[Eldariel]

Isn't contact outer planes yes and no answers only?

No, that's Commune. Which is extremely useful for pinpointing...anything, btw. Formulate binary questions to determine on which plane it is, and then start splitting the map in half until you've got a relatively small area pinpointed. This is a technique we've used to find objects rather often. Contact Other Plane, though, gives you a one-word answer.

[Fox Box Socks]

One of the best judges of whether a spell is broken is how often TSR/WotC modules won't let you use them. Modules where all the dungeons are impervious to teleport, scrying, and plane travel are pretty common.
As a DM, my yardstick for how powerful things are is "how often do I have to go out of my way to counter them, and what happens if I don't?". If the Wizard is consistently using Rope Trick to make the party virtually immune to ambushes, how often do I have to have the wandering ambush party include a Warlock with See Invisibility, Detect Magic and a Wand of Dispel Magic? If the Cleric is using Divine Metamagic, how often do I need to hit him with Dispel Magic? If the Druid is getting the most out of Natural Spell, how often do I need to set encounters in 5 foot hallways, or put him up against mooks armed with beast bane or plant bane weapons?

If the answer is "At least every other day, just to keep him on his toes", then the option in question is too powerful.

[stainboy]

If you don't know who the BBEG is you can't scry him. It is adventure dependant, but generally you often don't know who the BBEG is until you actually meet him in the final encounter.

I was thinking more about stuff like how you can't teleport into Undermountain, or how any divination about the Tomb of Horrors automatically fails, or how the entire Forgotten Realms Underdark scrambles scrying and teleportation.

[Mystic Muse]

Secret: Vecna adores fruitcake.

:smalleek: He's a monster! A MONSTER I SAY!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Maybe it's just me, but my BBEG tend to start around 7-8 levels higher than the party, with the assumption that the party will gain 3-4 levels getting to them. If the party wants to teleport directly to him, it's not the BBEG that's getting the pwning.

This is assuming your party doesn't have enough optimization to pull it off anyways.

Furthermore, You missed my point. Party grinds through dungeon, then finds the BBEG. At that point, he's only around 3-4 levels higher than the BBEG, and with the surprise round from the Teleport, they should be able to one-round him.

[Z3ro]

This is assuming your party doesn't have enough optimization to pull it off anyways.

BBEG always optimized to the level of the party.


Furthermore, You missed my point. Party grinds through dungeon, then finds the BBEG. At that point, he's only around 3-4 levels higher than the BBEG, and with the surprise round from the Teleport, they should be able to one-round him.

Sure, but that means that 1) they went through the entire dungeon (or whatever), thus didn't teleport to bypass everything and 2) caught my BBEG by suprise with no defenses up. The second point almost never happens, as any bad guy worth the title should have multi-layet defenses up all the time, and getting the drop on the BBEG is what every party tries to do. They're just doing it through a spell rather than kicking in the door. No biggie.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

BBEG always optimized to the level of the party.



Sure, but that means that 1) they went through the entire dungeon (or whatever), thus didn't teleport to bypass everything and 2) caught my BBEG by suprise with no defenses up. The second point almost never happens, as any bad guy worth the title should have multi-layet defenses up all the time, and getting the drop on the BBEG is what every party tries to do. They're just doing it through a spell rather than kicking in the door. No biggie.

It's a little bit more of a biggie than I think you realize. Being able to teleport directly into the encounter means an arbitrary number of buff rounds available to the party.

Unless your BBEG has Anticipate Teleport up, it *will* be a surprise-round KO. There's just too much punishment a party can dish out while focus-firing.

As an example case:

Party consists of:

Pounce Barbarian/PsiWar/Slayer. Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, EWP: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip. Basic combination of charger and battlefield control.

Rogue/Swordsage: Painbringer. TWF chain. Craven. Assassin's Stance. Wand of xStrike (depending on what the BBEG is, so that sneak attack *WILL* work)

Silverbrow Human Bard/Warblade/Warchanter: White Raven Song, Song of the Heart, DFI, Draconic Heretage (sonic damage), WRT. Starts the song up before the party pops in, so that everyone is affected by the song during the surprise round. Everyone is doing +7/+7 and +7d6 sonic damage on every hit.

Spontaneous Cloistered Cleric (with Travel domain)/Sovereign Speaker. This is the party taxi cab and Buff Bot. DMM Chain Spell and Reach Spell, and Pearl of Power. Depending on the abilities of the BBEG, the party will have effective counters to his nastier stuff (Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, and Protection from Evil to blunt mind-affecting) and also did GMW and MV earlier today. Can also drop Barkskin (plant domain) and Shield of Faith (spell known) to further increase party's AC.

Wizard/whatever full spellcasting PrC presents itself. Magical toolkit, battlefield control, Save or Loose specialist, with some of the Orb spells for damage output when the situation requires. Greater Mirror Image before the port-in.

Now here's where it gets fun.

Assuming they can get a disposable minion in there to see what is going on (rat familiar, Prying Eyes, etc...), they have a good enough picture for a teleport. As they are peeking through a crack or around a corner, the BBEG shouldn't be able to detect this. That's why they avoid using things like Scry, because too many things have defenses against it and alarms that go off when people use it.

However, before they ever set foot in the dungeon, the bardblade can use Bardic Lore, since the BBEG, being that much higher than the party, will certainly be seen as a Legendary creature. This should at least give them the Type, and if it is a caster or not. Failing that, drop the money on a scroll of Legend Lore.

As Teleport is being used, I'm assuming a party of around 9-10 when the party gets there, which means a BBEG of around 13-14.

So the party buffs up, and ports in.

You've got three melee beatsticks hitting him. This alone should drop anything CR 13-14, considering that each hit has 7d6 sonic damage and a +7 morale bonus to damage on every hit.

Barbarian is hampered by the fact that he cannot charge, so he 'only' gets a regular Power Attack, mitigated by the +7 on attack roll from the song, although if he Hustles, he still gets to apply Leap Attack modifier.

Rogue/Swordsage gets his sneak attack. First off, it's a surprise round. Second off, he's flanking with someone. If it's undead, Gravestrike wand. If it's a construct, Golemstrike. If it's a plant, Vinestrike. Then he gets his sneak attack (including bonus damage from Craven), the bonus damage from the songs, and probably drops the bastard right there. If it's got Improved Uncanny Dodge, he uses Sapphire Nightmare Blade and applies sneak attack damage anyways.

The Bardblade gets to hit him, using whatever maneuver he wishes to use to increase his single-hit damage output. Assuming he doesn't WRT to give everyone an extra move action during the surprise round.

The two casters have options, depending on what the BBEG is.

If the BBEG is a caster, Cleric hits him with a Dispel Magic, and Wizard hits him with a Dimensional Anchor, or possibly an Orb, if he thinks that will finish the job.

So yea, I don't think any CR 13-15 encounter can withstand that surprise-round beatdown.

[Z3ro]

So yea, I don't think any CR 13-15 encounter can withstand that surprise-round beatdown.

Yes, you've successfully shown that a well optimized party at about 10th level can in fact kill just about anything in one round. This is not news. At that high of a level, why does the villain not have something like dimensional lock up on his lair? And why no minions or underlings? The PCs have been cutting their way through his lair, after all.

And more importantly, if the party has gone through the entire dungeon, slaughtered all his minions, then formulated a great battle strategy, that's a win for me as a DM. If the players want to spend their time preparing rather than fight, so be it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, you've successfully shown that a well optimized party at about 10th level can in fact kill just about anything in one round. This is not news. At that high of a level, why does the villain not have something like dimensional lock up on his lair? And why no minions or underlings? The PCs have been cutting their way through his lair, after all. Because Dimensional Lock is an 8th level spell... unless you're wanting to throw something 6-8 CR higher than the party, AND wants to completely nerf his ability to escape via the same means, it's probably not going to happen.


And more importantly, if the party has gone through the entire dungeon, slaughtered all his minions, then formulated a great battle strategy, that's a win for me as a DM. If the players want to spend their time preparing rather than fight, so be it.

Why would anyone want to bypass all the treasure and xp gain involved in clearing out a dungeon anyways? However, it is the counter to your assumption that any attempt to port n pwn is going to end up in a TPK.

[Z3ro]

Because Dimensional Lock is an 8th level spell... unless you're wanting to throw something 6-8 CR higher than the party, AND wants to completely nerf his ability to escape via the same means, it's probably not going to happen.

You're the one who selected the levels, not myself. It's possible the party is 11th and the BBEG 15th. And if it's his last battle, escape is not a problem.


Why would anyone want to bypass all the treasure and xp gain involved in clearing out a dungeon anyways? However, it is the counter to your assumption that any attempt to port n pwn is going to end up in a TPK.

That situation is fine. I was responding to the idea that a party would teleport into the BBEG's lair at the beginning of the adventure, rather than at the end. If it's at the end my comments don't apply.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You're the one who selected the levels, not myself. It's possible the party is 11th and the BBEG 15th. And if it's his last battle, escape is not a problem. So the BBEG deliberately prevents himself from using his most powerful abilities (and his only 8th level spell slot, assuming LA +0 race, otherwise impossible) on the off hand chance that some party might try to use port n pwn tactics? Wow... that's using your genius-level intellect...

[navar100]

Contact Other Plane: What's the first name of the guy who's behind this invasion?

Next Casting: What race is the guy who's behind this invasion?

You get the idea. Just ask an appropriate god (god of secrets should do the trick...).

JaronK

1) Risk Insanity
2) Being you contact may lie to you.
3) Being you contact may not even know the answer.
4) Why would a god of secrets tell you anything?

[Mystic Muse]

4) Why would a god of secrets tell you anything?

Technically, he's just the god of secrets, not the god of keeping secrets.

[Tehnar]

Technically, he's just the god of secrets, not the god of keeping secrets.


Once a lot of people know something, it is not a secret anymore. Or you can go with; three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead.

So yeah I can totally see Vecna not sharing out stuff, or sharing knowledge and then killing people off a little later.

[sonofzeal]

Technically, he's just the god of secrets, not the god of keeping secrets.
We're talking about a god who kills off all his higher level clerics, because he's worried they'll try to replace him. This is not a rational mind. And being a god of Secrets implies a degree of, y'know, secrecy.

You're better off contacting Boccob.

[Larpus]

Just thought of one: up to level 5, Darkness is quite broken, regardless of who uses it: big area of effect, lasts for enough time for anyone to escape/do something even at level 1 and can only be dispelled by a very situational and otherwise rather useless 3rd level spell, which is only available for Sorcerers/Wizards of level 5 and up and even so is a bad pick for a Sorcerer and an unlikely one for a Wizard, at least as one of his first choices.

Yes, I'm well aware that Darkness is touch-ranged, but follow this: get one of the muscle heads of the party and make them hold a rock, then cast Darkness on said rock and have him or her throw it at the enemies' general location, not sure what the DC for that would be, but since it's not meant to damage anyone I guess it's a DC 10 or 15 throw attack? Which will, most of the time, envelope them in complete darkness without knowing where to go to get out of it, allowing your party plenty of time to run away or surprise them easily with Ghost Sound (so it sounds like your party left the room) if they do get out.

Forgot to add: In core-only games, as there must be some form of counter in other books.

[Tehnar]

Actually darkness creates "shadow illumination". Basically this means everybody that relies on sight has a 20% miss chance. Which is ok, but nowhere near gamebreaking.

In the lower editions of the game it caused total darkness and was much stronger.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, in 3.0 Darkness was one of my faves, in 3.5 it was nerfed to ridiculousness, and I've stopped bothering with it altogether.
In fact, in absence of a Light spell you can even use Darkness to _illuminate_ a pitch-black area! After all, it does create "shadowy illumination"... Gah.

[Corrik]

Personally I don't mind the nerf to darkness. Playing battleship in D&D gets old REALLY fast, especially when it happens almost every encounter.

[Z3ro]

So the BBEG deliberately prevents himself from using his most powerful abilities (and his only 8th level spell slot, assuming LA +0 race, otherwise impossible) on the off hand chance that some party might try to use port n pwn tactics? Wow... that's using your genius-level intellect...

What powerful abilities? Teleport? I don't want him to leave, it's the final battle. And as you pointed out, if PCs that much lower level than him can finish him off in one round, using a tactic to prevent it is not foolish, but rather intelligent. After all, at that level very few things end up coming through the front door.

[Tehnar]

Yeah, in 3.0 Darkness was one of my faves, in 3.5 it was nerfed to ridiculousness, and I've stopped bothering with it altogether.
In fact, in absence of a Light spell you can even use Darkness to _illuminate_ a pitch-black area! After all, it does create "shadowy illumination"... Gah.

The part about creating illumination is certainly a bit silly, but it is not a bad spell at all, though it is not as brutal or overpowered as before.

Its nice for creating places to hide monsters. If you are in its area it usually denies others the right to make sneak attacks on you.

Some creatures are also immune to its effects, and blanketing the area in darkness creates a more difficult fight.

[Mystic Muse]

We're talking about a god who kills off all his higher level clerics, because he's worried they'll try to replace him. This is not a rational mind. And being a god of Secrets implies a degree of, y'know, secrecy.


Well, he just said god of secrets, he never specified Vecna.

Although, I should have just assumed it was Vecna anyway.

[navar100]

Technically, he's just the god of secrets, not the god of keeping secrets.

Point.

Still, it's now by the whim of a particular DM rather than a guaranteed thing of every wizard everywhere all the time.