My Biggest Problem With Star Wars 1

[TheArsenal]

This is just a quick notice, its not a huge elaboration on how the entire Star wars Prequel sage makes no sense. Just a quick notice that is my biggest gripe with them:

Villains are totally winning until the plot decides they become stupid.

For example:

The Gassing scene. They open the doors. They held it for what? 3 minutes max? Hold them until the Jedi try to break out and attack them if they do.

Anikin Flies into an open force field to destroy the ship. The Bay is open......I understand that letting ships out is important but....No Precautions whatsoever! No automatic lock-down? Or at least have the interior heavily armored (Lets hope the enemy doesn't have powerful bombs then).

Darth Maul can fight with a Super Inconvenient (Attack only style) weapon against TWO jedi, kill one, but suddenly doesn't just knock Obi wan off the ledge. USE THE FORCE!

Darth maul just stands there as a Jedi flips over him, rather slowly (Not stabbing up) and lets Obi wan kill him.

Thats a few I noticed. Any others?

[Haruki-kun]

Nute Gunray was apparently not aware that Amidala had decoys. It's understandable that the other characters didn't (to a certain extent), but the Viceroy had pretty much the same position as Amidala in another part of the Republic. Surely he expected this?

EDIT: And how did the Decoy get into the palace, anyway? It took the team a long time to sneak in, but the other group just sorta waltzes in?

[Tavar]

Well, for the ship, remember that this is a re-purposed cargo ship, not an actual warship.

[raitalin]

My obligitory rant:

So the question was recently posed “What don't you like about Star Wars?” and while there are several things that bother me, most of my complaints center around the Phantom Menace. While some may cite Jar Jar as the character that kills this movie, I think the real problem goes much deeper than that. Jar Jar is purely a superficial annoyance, like a fly in your soup. The problem I have is as if your soup was prepared with cow manure, and it ruined your entire meal.

I'm talking, of course, about Anakin Skywalker's age.

While the actor chosen to play Anakin has his share of problems, and the writing for the character is terrible (I can not recall a single 9 year old ever saying Yipee! or Wahoo!), the entire concept of his age is flawed and by extension flaws the entire prequel trilogy. The awkward relationship between Padme and Anakin is strained at best and while the choice of actors makes the age difference seem huge and disturbing (Lloyd at 9 and Portman at 17), even their ages as written (9 and 14) create some incredulity in the audience. While one must assume that Anakin's ability to win the podrace as not only a human, but a child is the will of the Force, it stretches even the most suspended disbelief that he's able to accidentally fly a light starfighter through a battle, into a docking bay and run backasswards into victory.

What of all the mentions of Anakin in the original trilogy? That he was the greatest pilot Obi had ever met when they were introduced? This is swept aside so GL can cram one more thing to make the series more relateable to children. Star Wars needs to be more relateable to children ?!? As a kid I was never interested in seeing kids do incredible things, I wanted grown-ups to look up to. Never mind the fact that kids weren't going to drag their parents to see TPM, parents were dragging their kids to see it!

So what would be so great about a young adult Anakin you might ask? Well, besides the increased believability of his and Padme's relationship, the Podrace win and his contribution to the Battle of Naboo it makes his entire fall to the dark side a more realistic story.

Picture this: Upon arriving on Tatooine, Qui-Gon heads to Mos Espa for parts, but can find only one venodor, a black market dealer who's smuggler employee (Anakin!) has just successfully evaded authorities with that very part (cut to Anakin's escape from Republic military ships on his way to Tatooine) Watto tells QGJ that he can make the necessary money for the part by placing a bet on Anakin in the upcoming pod race. QGJ is wary, but after looking around the rest of the town, is unable to find another opportunity. On his return to Watto's he meets Anakin and while the young man is brash and cocky, he is also compassionate and has a great talent for the Force (which QGJ can sense without a #^%$ing blood test) . When QGJ confronts Anakin about his potential Anakin confesses that Watto is planning to have him throw the race (in which he is favored to win, having previously demonstrated his skill on the track) to bilk QGJ out of the Queen's ship. QGJ and Anakin set up a plan for him to win, gaining the part and enough money to pay off Anakin's debt to Watto. The rest of TPM proceeds as planned, except that Anakin is a gifted young adult capable of piloting a starfighter.

It gets better: because of Anakin's age (lets say 19 in TPM, 29 in AotC) he chafes under Obi-Wan's tutelage. Being only a few years younger, and more world-wise, he resents Obi-Wan telling him what to do, even though it's necessary for his training. The Jedi Council seems very wise to question whether someone of his age and questionable moral character can be trained as a Jedi, but his potential seems to great to be wasted. When his mother is killed he doesn't cry or whine, he gets angry. His cockiness has roots in experience, not just the fact that he's the Chosen One. Palpatine twists the distrust of authority away from the government and towards the Jedi, who Palpatine says are manipulating everything behind the scenes. Palps plants evidence for Anakin of a Jedi takeover, which Anakin believes has finally happened when he bursts in on Mace Windu ready to kill the stricken Emperor. Anakin is convinced Order 66 is the only way to save the Republic and heads to Mustafar (no need to kill children as heavy-handed expostition!) to deal with Obi-Wan, who has fled there with Padme seeking safe haven from Order 66 (Mustafar is neutral and remote). The rest of the trilogy proceeds normally.

I think this is a huge improvement, what about you?

[Voldecanter]

The Council in the palace automatically assumes that they are under invasion because their communicates are not working. Why not call the Microsoft hot-line first?

[Forum Explorer]

Darth and Droids plugged all of the plot holes for me quite nicely. Of course I now can't take Star Wars seriously but that's alright.

[TheArsenal]

Well, for the ship, remember that this is a re-purposed cargo ship, not an actual warship.

This is still one of the most blatant mistakes. Its baby logic: "Close doors when enemy attacks". They could have probably destroyed all the fleet from simply firing. This is still inexcusable.

[comicshorse]

Not to mention putting the engines right next to the landing bay, as in there was only a open door between the landing bay and the engines. All it took was one stray shot through the gaping hole in the force field and BOOM. Even if this was a repurposed cargo ship this is a moronic design as it means any ship losing it on landing can take out the whole ship

[Tavar]

This is still one of the most blatant mistakes. Its baby logic: "Close doors when enemy attacks". They could have probably destroyed all the fleet from simply firing. This is still inexcusable.

Their weapons were ineffective at targeting small craft. Thus they were sending out fighters, which were effective. It was just dumb luck that someone managed to land and fire some torpedoes at just the right moment. Again, keep in mind that these were essentially heavily armored aircraft carriers.

You're statements like saying that an Aircraft carrier is stupid for sending up it's planes when under attack, even though it may allow an enemy plane to blow up a plane on the runway.

[TheArsenal]

You're statements like saying that an Aircraft carrier is stupid for sending up it's planes when under attack, even though it may allow an enemy plane to blow up a plane on the runway.

Im saying close the castle doors (That can close in a second) when you have a single troop coming through. Sure you may loose a guy but at least its not a fighter in your ship. Aircraft carriers are a bad analogy. Their wide open, because planes require lots of landing space. This ship is heavily armored, has guns, and sends out ships through tiny holes.

1 second, force field activates, your own ship crashes into it, it dies. Slight burns. The oponents ship crashes. Saves your entire ship. Open force field, send out more guys. Especialy since:

1: W eve seen them destroy ships in the docking bay BIGGER than thier own with no ill effects.

2: These things are disposable. Their robots.

[Tavar]

But they didn't have time. By the time they realized that the enemy ship was attempting to land, it had landed, and by the time they were ready to blow it up with internal defenses, it has launched it's missiles and left.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Well, for the ship, remember that this is a re-purposed cargo ship, not an actual warship.And pirates are not a problem I assume?

[Tavar]

Well, pirates were a problem. That's why they have 80 zillion fighters, the security driods, better armor, shields, and some weapons.

[Gaius Marius]

The problem these movies had is represented in the big battles we've seen:

Everything is aseptized to make us feel as little as possible. The war is fought by mindless droids and copiable clones. What are the stakes? Who actually care if these disposable people gets destroyed?

I cared more for the doomed crew of Tantive IV than for the entire Clone army.

Same for the Jedi, for the protagonists, for anybody: We just didn't cared about them, and they needed to moodswing us with heavy music.

[TheArsenal]

But they didn't have time. By the time they realized that the enemy ship was attempting to land, it had landed, and by the time they were ready to blow it up with internal defenses, it has launched it's missiles and left.

So Nobody is watching the door? No automatic cameras? Like on the droids (Our guys-Open doors, Other guys-Close doors).

Like I said. Baby logic. This is baby logic. Im a 15 year old, and I still know better than those stupid Trade feds.

[Winterwind]

Darth maul just stands there as a Jedi flips over him, rather slowly (Not stabbing up) and lets Obi wan kill him.This one becomes doubly hilarious when you combine this with Episode III's "It's over, Anakin! I have the high ground!". :smallbiggrin:

[Tavar]

Everything is aseptized to make us feel as little as possible. The war is fought by mindless droids and copiable clones. What are the stakes? Who actually care if these disposable people gets destroyed?
Actually, that's one of my big beefs with the series: One side uses disposable, sentient, slave armies. The other uses non-sentient artificial beings. Yet the former is good?:smalleek:

So Nobody is watching the door? No automatic cameras? Like on the droids (Our guys-Open doors, Other guys-Close doors).

Like I said. Baby logic. This is baby logic. Im a 15 year old, and I still know better than those stupid Trade feds.
...
Doors that large take time to open and close. Time which they did not have. Thus, they did not do it.

[Reverent-One]

So Nobody is watching the door? No automatic cameras? Like on the droids (Our guys-Open doors, Other guys-Close doors).

Like I said. Baby logic. This is baby logic. Im a 15 year old, and I still know better than those stupid Trade feds.

Additionally to what Tavar said, Anakin flew in at the same time as several of their ships were flying out.

[TheArsenal]

Doors that large take time to open and close. Time which they did not have. Thus, they did not do it.

Sorry Force fields. Or at least a mounted lazer to blast entering guys.

Edit: Once again. Its already been proven that ships can eplode in the hanger bay with no casualties. Their ships are disposable. Finaly even if all that didnt matter its a

Let an armed enemy ship enter my destroyable innards
Or
Destroy two of my own ships.

edit:
So they dont even try to close the doors then?

Face it, GL writes like this:


And then Daurth Maul tosses Obi wan off using the force......No (Scribing noise). He stands there wacking the saber to make sparks.

[Reverent-One]

Sorry Force fields. Or at least a mounted lazer to blast entering guys.

Edit: Once again. Its already been proven that ships can eplode in the hanger bay with no casualties. Their ships are disposable. Finaly even if all that didnt matter its a

Let an armed enemy ship enter my destroyable innards
Or
Destroy two of my own ships.

You're assuming they knew Anakin was going to enter the bay and had time to make a decision. In you hadn't noticed, fighters are rather fast little buggers, and Anakin had just been in a seemingly uncontrolled spin, which he pulled out of just in time to swing into the bay. Odds are they had no time to react to him flying inside until he was already there.

[CrimsonAngel]

If it takes a long time to close them and ships are still flying out...

[TheArsenal]

You're assuming they knew Anakin was going to enter the bay and had time to make a decision. In you hadn't noticed, fighters are rather fast little buggers, and Anakin had just been in a seemingly uncontrolled spin, which he pulled out of just in time to swing into the bay. Odds are they had no time to react to him flying inside until he was already there.

Once again. A Mounted Camera would activate a lightspeed shield in a blink of an eye. But i guess it would require the reaction time of a smart computer to react fast enough...It would require it to be able to destinguish between friend and foe...*Sigh*. I guess that tech is hundreds of years away from that period of time.


Edit; And if im wrong then that just meens that the trade fedaration are a bunch of IDIOTS! If I built those things I would:

A Instert an inner Lazer to deal with ships in my ship
An Automated force field closing camera on every door.
Heavily Fortified interiors.
Very limited amount of places with air.
Better lazers.
Otherwise there is a risk of the oponents just launching a well aimed missle into my ship.

[Tavar]

Shields don't spring up instantaneously, either. At least, not the kind that stop ships from passing through. Heck, the ship is already surrounded by a shield. So was the Death Star. Didn't help much, did it.


Edit; And if im wrong then that just meens that the trade fedaration are a bunch of IDIOTS! If I built those things I would:

A Instert an inner Lazer to deal with ships in my ship
An Automated force field closing camera on every door.
Heavily Fortified interiors.
Very limited amount of places with air.
Better lazers.
Otherwise there is a risk of the oponents just launching a well aimed missle into my ship.
You know, that's a pretty good idea for a warship. Especially one crewed by droids.

Too bad the ship is, you know, NOT A WARSHIP.

[TheArsenal]

Shields don't spring up instantaneously, either. At least, not the kind that stop ships from passing through. Heck, the ship is already surrounded by a shield. So was the Death Star. Didn't help much, did it.

They seem very fast. Maybe im missing something.
Ugh, this is getting dumber by the minute. The thing is that this is still BABY LOGIC. Wouldnt you add any forms of defence against this sort of stuff?

The Closing fact is: I would have MANY forms of protection for ships trying to enter my ship. And its absolutly dumb that there isnt.

Edit:

Was there a timer on how fast the ships could be remodeled? If so, then the prequels have even LESS tension. Now its the poorly equiped rebelion against the empire.

[Wardog]

The problem these movies had is represented in the big battles we've seen:

Everything is aseptized to make us feel as little as possible. The war is fought by mindless droids and copiable clones. What are the stakes? Who actually care if these disposable people gets destroyed?

I cared more for the doomed crew of Tantive IV than for the entire Clone army.

Same for the Jedi, for the protagonists, for anybody: We just didn't cared about them, and they needed to moodswing us with heavy music.

True.

The original Star Wars opened with exposition explaining that the Evil Empire had the power to destroy whole planets.

We then cut to a scene with a huge, massively armed battleship bering down an a much smaller, near defenceless, fleeing victim.

Shortly after, we saw nervous humans preparing to repel boarders, before being cut down. The leader of the enemy crushed their captain's throat with his bare hands.

Later, we see Luke attacked and beatne by the Sand People, and not long after that, we see the charred corpses of his family spread out on the sand in front of his burning home.

It all works to give the impression of a dirty, dangerous universe, populated with cruel and viscious enemies, that tramples mercilessly on anyone that gets in its way, no matter how much you care about them.


Episode 1, on the other hand, opens with exposition explaining that some traders (yawn) are disputing tax rates (yawn).

The enemies are shown to be scared and on the run almost from the moment the heros show up. (If they had been shown to be dangerous and competant, and the Jedi still burst in like the badass knightly-warrior-monks they're supposed to be, and curb stomped them, it could have been a good demonstration of how impressive the Jedi are. As it was... not so much).

The Trade Federation conquer and occupy Naboo with no visible obvious damage to life or property.

Anakin and his mother seem to live a very cushy life for slaves. Whereas Luke's Tatooine seemed to be a dreary, desolate place, where even free men struggled to eak out a living, Anakin seemed to be relatively pleasant life in a thriving society.

All in all, the world of the TPM seemed a much nicer, safer, and duller (at least from a story-telling perspective) place than that of the originals, where no-one really undergoes the hardships necessary to make the viewer fear for them (if they ever cared for them in the first place).

Which could have been fine, if this had been used to emphasise the harm caused by Palpatine's machinations. (E.g. if by the end of TPM, large parts of Naboo's beautiful cities were reduced to rubble, and the fields and forests were scorched and covered with burnt-out war machines; if the Anakin's return to Tatooine had shown that - with the loss of trade caused by the war, the economy had collapsed resulting in something more like that of Mad Max, with the Sand People taking the part of the bikers).

Plus, they really needed to think of a better nickname than "Annie".

[Reverent-One]

They seem very fast. Maybe im missing something.
Ugh, this is getting dumber by the minute. The thing is that this is still BABY LOGIC. Wouldnt you add any forms of defence against this sort of stuff?

The Closing fact is: I would have MANY forms of protection for ships trying to enter my ship. And its absolutly dumb that there isnt.

Except for the fact that 99.99% of the time, they'd be entirely unnecessary. This is not a common event in space battles, it's not even a rare event, it's a once in a lifetime (or longer) event. As such, building defenses specifically against it is not something ship designers are going to have in mind.

[0Megabyte]

Shields don't spring up instantaneously, either. At least, not the kind that stop ships from passing through. Heck, the ship is already surrounded by a shield. So was the Death Star. Didn't help much, did it.


You know, that's a pretty good idea for a warship. Especially one crewed by droids.

Too bad the ship is, you know, NOT A WARSHIP.

Where in the film does it say this again? Really, when critiquing a film, it's only fair to just use... what's in the film.

---

Anyway, amongst the million problems are a few things that strike me at this moment:

Why do we need a prophecy? Why do we need a chosen one? None of this is in the original trilogy, so it wasn't something that needed to be addressed. Worse off, we don't even know what the prophecy is. Who made it. Why people believe it.

Second: Why make the Jedi council the way it is, a group of doddering incompetents who made the brilliant decision to be not only celibate when their powers have at least some genetic basis, but generally idiotic in their demeanor?

Seriously, Yoda in the original trilogy seems to actually be wise. Yoda in the prequels is no smarter than anyone else. The entire council thing, as done, a group of static, boring, lifeless people. Even during the Clone Wars they seem boring and static.

Nothing about these groups, nothing about the way the Republic worked, and nothing except a single mention of the Clone Wars was in the originals in any way, shape or form. Why did we have to get such crappy new ideas?

[Tavar]

Note that the Federation after the prequel is entirely different than before/during the prequel. Plus, they weren't an actual threat, the were the 'Phantom Menace'. Yes, the title does make sense, if you read/look into the lore deep enough. No, it doesn't make the movie better. The Federation's blockade/invasion may have resulted in a victory for Sideous, but that was unlikely. No, they were meant to show how weak and ineffective the Republic was, plus show that other interests controlled the entire thing.

Now, before and during the prequel, the Trade Federation was only slightly breaking the law with regards to it's armament's. This is the only thing that gave Naboo a chance. Remember, this isn't the republic against a poorly equipped merchant force(by first world standards), this is a poor, economic backwater fighting them. They don't need to have all that good of tech in order to win.

Afterward, they started breaking the law completely, and became an actual effective fighting force. Including overhauling the droids, to make them more capable.



Where in the film does it say this again? Really, when critiquing a film, it's only fair to just use... what's in the film.
Which parts are you arguing against?

[grimbold]

i have discovered that i can only watch movies late at night now (1-2 in the morning) because othewise i contemplate the problems and i start to hate the movie

[TheArsenal]

Except for the fact that 99.99% of the time, they'd be entirely unnecessary. This is not a common event in space battles, it's not even a rare event, it's a once in a lifetime (or longer) event. As such, building defenses specifically against it is not something ship designers are going to have in mind.

This is a debatable thing but....Having Doors in case this stuff, In my opinion would be a number three priority. Otherwise this would become a common tactic. Sneek to the door, and try to score a hit.

Edit:

I fail to notice "Economic bakwad" when the capital planet is Corusant. In addition, in every scene we see, the Clones destroy the droids even though it makes no sense. We always see the Republic destroying all trade fed stuff. The Driods are always just hacked through. Nobody is worried at thier arrival. Not even Wookies. Not one point in time does anything feel impact full.


There are too many problems in the Prequels to be debated a minute at a time. I gotta stop again.

[Reverent-One]

This is a debatable thing but....Having Doors in case this stuff, In my opinion would be a number three priority. Otherwise this would become a common tactic. Sneek to the door, and try to score a hit.

That's why they have shields, which are sufficient in nearly all cases. They don't need anything more than that.

[TheArsenal]

That's why they have shields, which are sufficient in nearly all cases. They don't need anything more than that.

Which is why there wherent any at the doors.

Even if it was to let ships out, there should have been emergency blast shield/Door. I will never understand the logic of not having emergency blast doors. So many good uses.

"Missile heading towards entrance? BLAST DOORS!"
"Huge explosion neer entrance? BLAST DOORS!"

I think that in this techno future they could have some rapid closing form of doors.

Remember how big of a deal this was in the first death star?

A tiny hole (Yes, its existence still boggles me), not even target-able by computers. Is held secret, surrounded by turrents, and fighters.


But screw it. I guess that it was the will of the plot force.

[Tavar]

Remember who had input on this whole process? One Darth Vader? Now, what was he doing when he was a kid....


Also, as it's been said, shields can be pierced by some objects. Look at...well, every Star Wars movie. If they're flying close to a ship in a starfighter, then they've gone through the shields. That's just how the systems their work.

And they do have doors. It's just the doors take time to open and close, and during a battle where you're fighters are constantly flying in and out, you want to keep them open, so they can do that.

Really, the fact that this was a 1 in a Million event needs to be stressed. In fact, I was wrong. There were guns calibrated to shoot down fighters on the Trade Federation ships. They were clustered around those bays. They just missed their shots.

[TheArsenal]

One Darth Vader? Now, what was he doing when he was a kid....

Acting horribly, staining the image of his adult form, saying cheesy lines, acting like a crybaby, saying NOOOOOOOOOOO, falling in love in a crapy romance story.

And Again, I mention that emergency super powered doors able to crush fighters would be a great idea in case of a starfighter trying to get in.

And all the clustered computer aimed Lazers miss. How convenient.

Your not protecting a blank wall, its the most vulnerable part of your ship! Have the lazers shoot perfectly. THEN dont worry about blast doors.

Edit: And even if your loosing five fighters per close of the door, its the protection OF THE ENTIRE SHIP! Its not a

"Aw man, I lost five fighters" type deal. Its a "Thank God we have emergency doors in case something like this happens".

Having a catapult inside your own ship is stupid. Having emergency doors is not.

I could sent out a ship with a good targeter. And Send out a Few missles or Lazers into the docks. The "Lazers ALL MISS" and then your dead.

[Reverent-One]

And Again, I mention that emergency super powered doors able to crush fighters would be a great idea in case of a starfighter trying to get in.

Right, because incredibly massive doors that close within a second's time make perfect sense. Generally shields are going to be more useful.


And all the clustered computer aimed Lazers miss. How convenient.

Yeah, it's not they're shooting at a ace pilot who happens to be immensely strong in the force or anything.


Your not protecting a blank wall, its the most vulnerable part of your ship! Have the lazers shoot perfectly. THEN dont worry about blast doors.

Right, rely on something that doesn't even exist to protect yourself, that makes perfect sense.


Edit: And even if your loosing five fighters per close of the door, its the protection OF THE ENTIRE SHIP! Its not a

"Aw man, I lost five fighters" type deal. Its a "Thank God we have emergency doors in case something like this happens".

Having a catapult inside your own ship is stupid. Having emergency doors is not.

What part of there was no time to close any hypothetical doors is hard to understand?

[Dr.Epic]

Thats a few I noticed. Any others?

How about in Episode II when instead of killing the two Jedi and the Senator real quick by shooting them, they instead come up with a contrived Bond-villain method.

[TheArsenal]

Right, because incredibly massive doors that close within a second's time make perfect sense. Generally shields are going to be more useful.
Unless their aiming specifically for the doors (The Most vulnerable part of the ship).



Yeah, it's not they're shooting at a ace pilot who happens to be immensely strong in the force or anything.

Machina Machina, Dues ex Machina. A little boy, that never flew a ship (Only a Pod). And how does one aim with the force anyway? I thought he became an ace Pilot after Training. Not: "The force". Luke used the force to hit a target, but Generaly he avoided gunfire like a standard being.


Edit:
Watch the Scene again:Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_qaoJYmP5k&feature=related)

3:05-3:15.

There wherent even any ships moving out of the bay. He flies in easy peasy lemon squeezey. No Lazers surrounding it, nothing. Not even shields.


Right, rely on something that doesn't even exist to protect yourself, that makes perfect sense.

So it would be difficult to create computers that aim perfectly? We have supersonicaly fast dribbling robots (Robots that can dribble a ball super fast, perfectly) yet no auto aim? And if you dont have any then build emergency (Emergency being the keyword here) blast doors.


What part of there was no time to close any hypothetical doors is hard to understand?

What Part of make Doors that close quickly do you not understand? Their in every other part of the ship. They close in a second. Just make larger versions.

[Tavar]

TheArsenal, are you reading what were're posting? Cause it seems like you aren't.

First off, yes, the shots missed. This thing happens. I mean, look at footage from WW2. Many, many shots are fired at planes. They miss a lot. This happens. Sometimes, you're strategies fail.

Secondly, the big door thing? There are doors like that. But, to close them in time to have stopped Anikin, the one operating them would have to have seen the future and closed them before there was a reason to. Here's and example. Build a track that has a garage door off of a small turnoff(~30 ft or less). Have someone drive around at ~60 miles or so. At any point, they can take the turnoff, and go through the door. Meanwhile, there's a a man, sitting in a booth with heavy metal playing. The booth has restricted vision, so all he can see is the turnoff, not the track itself. His job is, once he see's the car going down the track, to hit the button to lower the garage door. This door, however, will close at the same rate as a standard, residential garage door would.

Do you think that's going to be easy? No. It's probably going to be a a miracle if the man actually closes the door in time to catch the car. Now factor in that the ships are going faster, in a 3d environment, and there are many, many more. Hundreds of them.

Yeah. Your proposed solution doesn't work.


Thirdly, Anikin in the movies was an ace pilot. From the begining. Part of his force powers is limited precog, heightened reflexes, extra. Also, as much as I know everyone hates to, remember the podracing scene?

For scaling...no. Scaling doesn't work that way. To do that you need much, much stronger gears, engines, shock absorbers, etc. That increases wear and tear. On a merchant ship.

Please, why would you be making a merchant ship with features that only make sense on a warship? Because that's what you're suggesting.




Edit:

I fail to notice "Economic bakwad" when the capital planet is Corusant. In addition, in every scene we see, the Clones destroy the droids even though it makes no sense. We always see the Republic destroying all trade fed stuff. The Driods are always just hacked through. Nobody is worried at thier arrival. Not even Wookies. Not one point in time does anything feel impact full.


There are too many problems in the Prequels to be debated a minute at a time. I gotta stop again.
Huh? The first movie's action sequences all happen on tatooine or Naboo. Naboo is effectively a minor, backwater economy. Really, can you explain what you mean here?

[Reverent-One]

Unless their aiming specifically for the doors (The Most vulnerable part of the ship).

Shields are still better in that case.


Machina Machina, Dues ex Machina. A little boy, that never flew a ship (Only a Pod). And how does one aim with the force anyway? I thought he became an ace Pilot after Training. Not: "The force". Luke used the force to hit a target, but Generaly he avoided gunfire like a standard being.

Pod racing is supposed to be impossible for a human to do, and he did it as a child, so yes he's an ace pilot, thanks to the force. Luke's piloting skills are similarly enhanced. When you have a sixth sense that improves your reaction time, things like dodging and such become much easier.


So it would be difficult to create computers that aim perfectly? We have supersonicaly fast dribbling robots (Robots that can dribble a ball super fast, perfectly) yet no auto aim? And if you dont have any then build emergency (Emergency being the keyword here) blast doors.

Given that perfection is pretty much inattainable, yes, it would be quite difficult. Why make doors when shields can do the same job?


What Part of make Doors that close quickly do you not understand? Their in every other part of the ship. They close in a second. Just make larger versions.

A) The doors don't close that quickly, B) the very fact that you're making them many times more massive in only going to increase the time it takes it close them by a similar amount.

[TheArsenal]

TheArsenal, are you reading what were're posting? Cause it seems like you aren't.

[QUOTE]First off, yes, the shots missed. This thing happens. I mean, look at footage from WW2. Many, many shots are fired at planes. They miss a lot. This happens. Sometimes, you're strategies fail.
But not if you have computers that by all means should be able to shoot perfectly. And this is the Primary, and only defencive strategy.



Secondly, the big door thing? There are doors like that. But, to close them in time to have stopped Anikin, the one operating them would have to have seen the future and closed them before there was a reason to.

I rewatched the Scene. They had like FIVE seconds to close it. There were absolutly no defences. Whatsoever. Just Dropping a heavy chunk of metal would have saved them all.




Thirdly, Anikin in the movies was an ace pilot. From the begining. Part of his force powers is limited precog, heightened reflexes, extra. Also, as much as I know everyone hates to, remember the podracing scene?

So I guess its dues ex machina TO THE RESCUE! I guess I cannot argue with " Cause the Force".


For scaling...no. Scaling doesn't work that way. To do that you need much, much stronger gears, engines, shock absorbers, etc. That increases wear and tear. On a merchant ship.

Please, why would you be making a merchant ship with features that only make sense on a warship? Because that's what you're suggesting.

Bieng used as a warship. So why not Just Dropping a large heavy door down? And "Wear and tear" vs "Immanent death"


Huh? The first movie's action sequences all happen on tatooine or Naboo. Naboo is effectively a minor, backwater economy. Really, can you explain what you mean here?

A huge lush planet with a huge energy reactor. I guess thier own lack of an army was thier downfall.

[Suzuro]

All right, I'm here to be on neither side but argue against both:

1) Blast doors. The American ICBM silos have doors that weight about 12 tons (24000 pounds, 10900 kilograms) that can be opened in about a quarter of a second with an explosive that isn't much larger than an average persons head, Yes, it can be done.

2) Auto-Aim. It can be done. It cannot be done perfectly. To be able to aim perfectly, you would effectively have to be able to tell the future. What an aiming device does is determine direction and velocity and extrapolate where the vehicle would most likely be when the shot hits. So, unless there is a device which can precisely tell exactly where the ship would be, no, it cannot be done.


-Suzuro

[Reverent-One]

1) Blast doors. The American ICBM silos have doors that weight about 12 tons (24000 pounds, 10900 kilograms) that can be opened in about a quarter of a second with an explosive that isn't much larger than an average persons head, Yes, it can be done.


And how much distance do the doors actually have to cover? And you mention opening, can they close at the rate?

[Traab]

The real problem isnt the shields or otherwise blocking anakin from getting inside, its the fact that there was something in the launch bay that could be easily shot to cause the entire ship to explode. I mean, what the hell? Enemy attacks aside, all it takes is a mistake in landing, or a weapons misfire and you blew up your own ship. What kind of nimrod puts a critical, explosive device in an area as easy to access as the HANGAR BAY!

[TheArsenal]

Alright, Lets go through this again.

You Have a Merchant Ship that you Retooled to become a Battleship.
You have shields, shielding the ship
You have a single (Or two) Docking Bay For Sending Ships out. It is either not shielded, or shields let physical stuff through. This is because you need to send ships out.


This is My Argument. In That Scene3:05-3:15 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_qaoJYmP5k&feature=related) there was no protection in case somebody tried to fly in. There was a battle Droid behind annie but it disapeared for some reason. There was no lazers surrounding the docking bay, and no anti aircraft shields, and no door.

I Suggested a simple heavy Door that quickly drops down Just in case something flies through your defences. Or Have highly sophisticated auto aiming stuff employing the same accuracy tech as employed Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfdHY26E2jc&feature=player_embedded) shoot down any oponent by having dousens of lazers clustered around the entrances. But Mostly I suggest both

Your Argument.

[XiphonIII]

Um...those shields were defence shields of the (insert number kind). Those force shields weren't opening and closing. They were just UP. They stop lasers and such. Not physical objects.

[Reverent-One]

Alright, Lets go through this again.

You Have a Merchant Ship that you Retooled to become a Battleship.
You have shields, shielding the ship
You have a single (Or two) Docking Bay For Sending Ships out. It is either not shielded, or shields let physical stuff through. This is because you need to send ships out.

Incorrect, they do have shields that block physical objects, they merely lower them momentarily to let their ships out. Anakin exploited this slim window to get in.


This is My Argument. In That Scene3:05-3:15 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_qaoJYmP5k&feature=related) there was no protection in case somebody tried to fly in. There was a battle Droid behind annie but it disapeared for some reason. There was no lazers surrounding the docking bay, and no anti aircraft shields, and no door.

Incorrect again, about at 3:10, when anakin starts getting close to the bay, we see laser bolts shooting from around the bay. As previously mentioned, they merely had their anti-aircraft shields down for a moment while they let their fighters out.


I Suggested a simple heavy Door that quickly drops down Just in case something flies through your defences.

If they're aware of something about to get through their defenses, they'd be better off just raising their shields again, instead of needing to add in some door.


Or Have highly sophisticated auto aiming stuff employing the same accuracy tech as employed Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfdHY26E2jc&feature=player_embedded) shoot down any oponent by having dousens of lazers clustered around the entrances.

And you think the accuracy to bounce a ball is the same as that required to track a starfighter capable of accelerating at 3,750 Gs that's dodging. Riiiight.

[Wardog]

I agree that making blast doors that could close fast enough (and were strong enough) to stop an enemy fighter getting in would be difficult.

The real problem, as Traab said, is that the design of the ship means that an accident in the launch bay (fire, weapons malfunction, fighter crashing on takeoff or landing) could easily take out the whole carrier.

Additionally, having just watched that clip, I don't think it actually would require an ace pilot with force powers to get in there (not least because Anakin basically blundered in there while semi-out of control).

A good pilot on a bombing run could probably get a bomb or missile in there, and a guided missile (or a desparate pilot making a kamikaze attack) could get through. Alternatively, a dropship or assault transport could probably get in as well and unload a squad of marines (or droids, if you're worried about casulties).

Now, if the carriers were (as some have said) cargo ships repurposed as warships, then "being vulnerable to kamikazi attacks or commando raids" is understandable. But the still doesn't excuse that an accident in the launch bay could destroy the whole thing.

[TheArsenal]

Incorrect again, about at 3:10, when anakin starts getting close to the bay, we see laser bolts shooting from around the bay. As previously mentioned, they merely had their anti-aircraft shields down for a moment while they let their fighters out.

What fighters? There where absolutely ZERO fighters coming out. And there were none even close to coming out (We see the innards of the ship). With something as precise as shields Id expect them to be able to be raised and lowered in the blink of an eye.
And yes I noticed the two shots fired halfheartedly at the ship. I didnt notice a cluster of Lazers rapid firing at the ship, especialy once it was near the bay.



If they're aware of something about to get through their defenses, they'd be better off just raising their shields again, instead of needing to add in some door.

YES! And they dont! I clearly see that anikin flies by at a Fast but not too fast rate. They should have raised them on time. They had a solid five seconds. They clearly saw him (Lazers), but not closed the shields.



And you think the accuracy to bounce a ball is the same as that required to track a starfighter capable of accelerating at 3,750 Gs that's dodging. Riiiight.

No. Your right about that. And Spinning. Thats a good trick. I meant that computers see the world in slow motion. It should have been easy for the targeting system to plow down the ship.

[Muz]

"Rapid-closing doors? Sensors? Anti-intruder turrets? Defenses? Competent crews?

These things cost money, man! We're the Trade Federation! How are we supposed to make a profit if we're spending money? Cut some corners! What's the worst that could happen?"

</satire> :smallwink:

[Sholos]

Pod racing is supposed to be impossible for a human to do, and he did it as a child, so yes he's an ace pilot, thanks to the force. Luke's piloting skills are similarly enhanced. When you have a sixth sense that improves your reaction time, things like dodging and such become much easier.

Don't forget that Luke had extensive experience actually flying (and, IIRC, the craft he had experience in had very similar controls to an X-Wing) as well as experience nailing targets approximately the same size as the vent. Anakin had none of those advantages and should have had no idea how to fly or do anything in the fighter, Force or no.

[Reverent-One]

What fighters? There where absolutely ZERO fighters coming out. And there were none even close to coming out (We see the innards of the ship). With something as precise as shields Id expect them to be able to be raised and lowered in the blink of an eye.
And yes I noticed the two shots fired halfheartedly at the ship. I didnt notice a cluster of Lazers rapid firing at the ship, especialy once it was near the bay.

Here, watch a non-crappy quality video (http://www.youtube.com/user/FilmFTW1#p/c/7BB8A1F38AB6DA71/11/8KQk5pBMhwM)(watch from 8:15-8:25 and set quailty to highest for best visibilty), you'll see fighters coming out as Anakin flies in. At some point he'd be too close for the lasers to get shots on him, like for example, right as he's entering the bay.


YES! And they dont! I clearly see that anikin flies by at a Fast but not too fast rate. They should have raised them on time. They had a solid five seconds. They clearly saw him (Lazers), but not closed the shields.

Yes, the lasers saw him and opened fire, that doesn't mean A) whoever controlled the shield did, B) or, since he was spinning seemingly out of control at the time, even if they did, they could have thought it wasn't a threat, or C) that they had time to figure that out, issue the command to activate the shields, and then have the shields actually go through the activation process in that time.


No. Your right about that. And Spinning. Thats a good trick. I meant that computers see the world in slow motion. It should have been easy for the targeting system to plow down the ship.

Which doesn't mean they see it slow it enough that a starfighter looks slow to them (which would be far, far, far faster than a simple bouncing ball), that they can predict the erratic movements of a dodging starfighter, and at the same time bring the guns to bear on whatever the predicted position is. You're making wild assumptions about the technicle capabilities of the star wars universe, if turrets could be automated to shoot down fighters easily, fighters would not longer be used in the SW universe. Obviously, that is not the case, so obviously perfectly aiming turrets do not exist.


Don't forget that Luke had extensive experience actually flying (and, IIRC, the craft he had experience in had very similar controls to an X-Wing) as well as experience nailing targets approximately the same size as the vent. Anakin had none of those advantages and should have had no idea how to fly or do anything in the fighter, Force or no.

That depends on the controls, obviously they were similar enough that he could fly the fighter. That said, he obviously didn't know a number of things about the fighter, as we can see when he fires off the torpedoes by accident.

[Sillycomic]

I think the problem is that the Trade Federation is just a corporation, not an army. They deal with trade so they don’t know how to occupy a planet. They don’t know how to fight in a war. They’re response to a war is to buy a bunch of droid machines that will do all the fighting for them. They’re just bumbling around in a not funny way.

They don’t know what they’re doing. Here are a few examples:

They bring in way too many ships to occupy a planet that has no army.

They land their attacking droids on the opposite side of the planet of where the droids need to be.

They succeed in their goal of capturing the Queen and then just kinda stand around for a bit. (Oh, wait, she needs to be processed. That’s very important to the story’s plot. The processing part.)

The entire robot army is being controlled by one central computer on one ship.

They’re so scared of two jedi that when they realize these elite fighters escape they just pretend nothing happened.

When the rebel forces all conjure on a battle field for a last stand, the Federation sends their entire army out to attack.

At one point in time 800 ships surrounding the planet seemed like a good idea. Somewhere along the movie the Trade Federation decided for no reason that 1 ship surrounding the planet would be enough.


It’s too bad that part of the story didn’t come through. A group of Corporate Executives who have no clue what they’re doing decides to plan an occupation and full out war in the promises of lewts and power when the dust settles. There’s a good movie in that idea, I know it.

I think in the final space battle there is a bigger problem to talk about though. Where did all the other ships go? In the beginning when Amidala left Naboo there were hundreds of cargo ships creating a blockade to keep anything from entering or leaving the planet.

But when Amidala goes back to Naboo there’s only one ship.

Where did all the other ships go? Why isn’t there still like 800 ships creating a blockade? There’s no reason for them to have left. It’s only been a few days time since Amidala tried to leave the planet. Aren’t other ships from the planet trying to leave? Isn’t the blockade still needed? Where did everyone go?

If the end battle had 800 ships, then silly little Annie could have gotten lucky and blown one up. Good job kid. You've got 799 ships to go. Better yell Yippee! a couple more times.

Of course this leads to another argument. How did Queen Amidala escape Naboo in the first place?

800 ships can't destroy one little glorified pod racer because R2D2 can fix the shields? What? How did this happen? Why weren't they being hailed down in gunfire (or laserfire, whatever)

The lasers can obviously pierce the shields anyway, wasn't that how the shield generator was hit in the first place? Why is the shield generator (a super important piece of equipment on a ship) on the outside where a random laser can hit it anyway? Shouldn't it be tucked neatly in like the bowels of the ship with multiple layers of plating to protect it?

How did the Queen get through this blockade? Those shields were down for nearly a minute! The laser fire can pierce these pathetic sheilds, but now the shields are gone, and the only thing the 800 ships are doing is trying to hit the stupid droids fixing the ship? What? Why? What?

[TheArsenal]

Here, watch a non-crappy quality video (http://www.youtube.com/user/FilmFTW1#p/c/7BB8A1F38AB6DA71/11/8KQk5pBMhwM)(watch from 8:15-8:25 and set quailty to highest for best visibilty), you'll see fighters coming out as Anakin flies in. At some point he'd be too close for the lasers to get shots on him, like for example, right as he's entering the bay.

Alright. FIVE halfhearted shots and still no ships. And especialy as he is entering the port there should have been lazers.


Yes, the lasers saw him and opened fire, that doesn't mean A) whoever controlled the shield did, B) or, since he was spinning seemingly out of control at the time, even if they did, they could have thought it wasn't a threat, or C) that they had time to figure that out, issue the command to activate the shields, and then have the shields actually go through the activation process in that time.

A) It should have had sensors, or a non blind person to control the shields then.
B) Not a good excuse. He was just spinning. That could have been a distraction/ Its still a ship: Kill it.
C) Beep. *Shields on*.

You act like its a chore to just flip the shields on/ Kill all opponent ships in sight. It shouldnt be. Yes they wouldn't aim perfectly, but ESPECIALLY since its out of control, kill it before it regains control.


Which doesn't mean they see it slow it enough that a starfighter looks slow to them (which would be far, far, far faster than a simple bouncing ball), that they can predict the erratic movements of a dodging starfighter, and at the same time bring the guns to bear on whatever the predicted position is.

Why do you insist that they are so fast? There not. We see the ships move as fast as WW2 planes, not that fast. With newer tech they could be easily shot down. We never see the Ships going SUPER FAST! Anikin enters the port at a rather slow pace. Even MANUALY that would have given me time to kill him five times in a row.


You're making wild assumptions about the technicle capabilities of the star wars universe, if turrets could be automated to shoot down fighters easily, fighters would not longer be used in the SW universe. Obviously, that is not the case, so obviously perfectly aiming turrets do not exist.


This reminds me of Oban Star Racers where the Robot Simply Calculated every possinility the ship could take and almost destroyed a ship (She acted too fast for it too catch up). This is not the case. This massive ship houses a supercomputer, it should see the ship, calculate the direction its moving and responce fire.

And thats my problem. That the Droids by all means are better yet for some reason act stupid and unable to fire straight. We already have very good turrent tech yet in this super future wonderland there still arent any auto aiming stuff? Convenient?

[Reverent-One]

B) Not a good excuse. He was just spinning. That could have been a distraction/ Its still a ship: Kill it.

Right, kill it, that's why they were shooting at him.


C) Beep. *Shields on*.

Please cite your source on how long it takes the particle shields over the hanger bay to turn on.


You act like its a chore to just flip the shields on/ Kill all opponent ships in sight. It shouldnt be. Yes they wouldn't aim perfectly, but ESPECIALLY since its out of control, kill it before it regains control.

Again, yes, that's why they were shooting at it, to kill it.


Why do you insist that they are so fast? There not. We see the ships move as fast as WW2 planes, not that fast. With newer tech they could be easily shot down. We never see the Ships going SUPER FAST! Anikin enters the port at a rather slow pace. Even MANUALY that would have given me time to kill him five times in a row.

It takes them minutes at best to reach orbit, and it capable of accelerating at 3750 Gs. As fast as a WWII plane, my foot.


This reminds me of Oban Star Racers where the Robot Simply Calculated every possinility the ship could take and almost destroyed a ship (She acted too fast for it too catch up). This is not the case. This massive ship houses a supercomputer, it should see the ship, calculate the direction its moving and responce fire.

And thats my problem. That the Droids by all means are better yet for some reason act stupid and unable to fire straight. We already have very good turrent tech yet in this super future wonderland there still arent any auto aiming stuff? Convenient?

No, you're problem is you keep making assumptions about SW tech. Turret tech has NEVER been portrayed as being that good in SW, even in the original trilogy gun turrets are primarily manned, not automated. Even the Empire, which has thousands of ships and builds planet destroying superweapons, doesn't have AI that aims better than people do. It's simply how things are there.

[TheArsenal]

Right, kill it, that's why they were shooting at him.

Yup. Five halfhearted shots.


Please cite your source on how long it takes the particle shields over the hanger bay to turn on.

I dont know. Thats why I suggested Blast Doors. At least I know that they would clamp shut in a second. Otherwise I dont know.


Again, yes, that's why they were shooting at it, to kill it.

Five Halfhearted shots.


It takes them minutes at best to reach orbit, and it capable of accelerating at 3750 Gs. As fast as a WWII plane, my foot.

Yet you can see that they slow down to aircraft speeds in space battles. For example: The Station is roughly the size of a castle (From what I understand of the docking bay). It takes Annie 20 Seconds to fly over it. Nice foot.


No, you're problem is you keep making assumptions about SW tech. Turret tech has NEVER been portrayed as being that good in SW, even in the original trilogy gun turrets are primarily manned, not automated. Even the Empire, which has thousands of ships and builds planet destroying superweapons, doesn't have AI that aims better than people do. It's simply how things are there.

And C3PO, and robot bounty hunters, and auto aim programs installed in ships. It doesn't make no sense! But this is one of those debates with no clear answer so lets leave it there.

Edit: I thought they where automatic. Its what the visual guide says. And that there where additional manual guns.

[Tavar]

It’s too bad that part of the story didn’t come through. A group of Corporate Executives who have no clue what they’re doing decides to plan an occupation and full out war in the promises of lewts and power when the dust settles. There’s a good movie in that idea, I know it.


Yeah, that is a failing. There's at least one book that goes into the backstory, and basically sets up the plot. Reading that, I suddenly was able to understand much more about why everything happened the way it did.

Of course, that doesn't excuse the movie.


TheArsenal, do the words Science Fiction, Science Fantasy, Space opera, and the like mean anything to you? Because, honestly, your complaint is more along the lines of "this fictional world that doesn't operate along the same lines as our world has the temerity to operate along other lines".

In the Star wars universe, computers aren't that good. That's a fact. Sorry, no, you're wrong, they aren't that good.


Five Halfhearted shots.
Cite source that those were halfhearted, that the 5 we saw were the only ones shot, and that there weren't other targets nearby, please.

Also, proof that a bulkhead door could close fast enough and! be reusable.

[Reverent-One]

Yup. Five halfhearted shots.

Interesting how you know the emotions of the gunners/AI firing at him.


I dont know. Thats why I suggested Blast Doors. At least I know that they would clamp shut in a second. Otherwise I dont know.

No, you don't know that.


Yet you can see that they slow down to aircraft speeds in space battles. For example: The Station is roughly the size of a castle (From what I understand of the docking bay). It takes Annie 20 Seconds to fly over it. Nice foot.

I'd rather see some real math there rather than guesstimates.


And C3PO, and robot bounty hunters, and auto aim programs installed in ships. It doesn't make no sense! But this is one of those debates with no clear answer so lets leave it there.

No auto aim programs have been shown to be better than manual fire.


Edit: I thought they where automatic. Its what the visual guide says. And that there where additional manual guns.

Depends on which guns you're talking about.

[TheArsenal]

TheArsenal, do the words Science Fiction, Science Fantasy, Space opera, and the like mean anything to you? Because, honestly, your complaint is more along the lines of "this fictional world that doesn't operate along the same lines as our world has the temerity to operate along other lines".

In the Star wars universe, computers aren't that good. That's a fact. Sorry, no, you're wrong, they aren't that good.

Well thier good enough to have AIs in them lightyears beyond our own. I Just thought that applying what I knew to the robots/Ais in star wars to real world logic to come to the conclusion that Droids should have great aim because they think and aim much faster than humans.

[Philistine]

What kind of nimrod puts a critical, explosive device in an area as easy to access as the HANGAR BAY!

At last count? Every single navy that has ever built a warship with an aircraft hangar. The hangar is where aircraft are fueled and armed, meaning that highly-flammable aviation fuel and highly explosive munitions are on hand as a matter of course. Even when the amounts actually on-hand are small (as for instance in mid-battle, after launching the air wing), you still have pipes leading straight down to the fuel bunkerage and doors (or elevator shafts) opening directly into the magazines where the munitions are kept.

The PT have their share of problems and then some; there's no need to invent ones that don't exist.

[Traab]

At last count? Every single navy that has ever built a warship with an aircraft hangar. The hangar is where aircraft are fueled and armed, meaning that highly-flammable aviation fuel and highly explosive munitions are on hand as a matter of course. Even when the amounts actually on-hand are small (as for instance in mid-battle, after launching the air wing), you still have pipes leading straight down to the fuel bunkerage and doors (or elevator shafts) opening directly into the magazines where the munitions are kept.

The PT have their share of problems and then some; there's no need to invent ones that don't exist.


Its one thing to have the aircraft fuel and weapons in the hangar, thats where they belong, but they basically had their freaking nuclear reactor there.

[Tavar]

Huh. Imagine that. A civilian ship built, not with regards to combat, but with regards to cutting costs. That's like....totally in line with what happens in our world.

Plus, did he hit a reactor directly, or was it just sympathetic explosions? I really don't know which, been a while since I've seen that scene.

[Traab]

Huh. Imagine that. A civilian ship built, not with regards to combat, but with regards to cutting costs. That's like....totally in line with what happens in our world.

Plus, did he hit a reactor directly, or was it just sympathetic explosions? I really don't know which, been a while since I've seen that scene.


hell if I know what it was. It looked reactorish. It was glowing at least. :p

[Eldariel]

Problems with Episode What now? The New Hope was awesome.

[comicshorse]

My problem with the scene where Annakin blows up the Trade Federation ship is more stylish than logic. I always find myself, comparing it with the attack on the Death Star, for obvious reasons ( small ships making a desperate attack on the enemy base ship to save the day).
In the original this is tense, men die, pilots deliberatley place themselves as human shields to protect those making the attack run and victory is gained but at a sacrifice so it means something.
In the Phantom Menace a 8 year old accidentally flies his ship straight through the enemies defences and by sheer luck blows it up. There is no skill, no challenge, no sacrifice and so it means nothing

[druid91]

At last count? Every single navy that has ever built a warship with an aircraft hangar. The hangar is where aircraft are fueled and armed, meaning that highly-flammable aviation fuel and highly explosive munitions are on hand as a matter of course. Even when the amounts actually on-hand are small (as for instance in mid-battle, after launching the air wing), you still have pipes leading straight down to the fuel bunkerage and doors (or elevator shafts) opening directly into the magazines where the munitions are kept.

The PT have their share of problems and then some; there's no need to invent ones that don't exist.


Its one thing to have the aircraft fuel and weapons in the hangar, thats where they belong, but they basically had their freaking nuclear reactor there.
Exactly, Aside from the fact that Tibanna gas wasn't explosive last time I checked.

Huh. Imagine that. A civilian ship built, not with regards to combat, but with regards to cutting costs. That's like....totally in line with what happens in our world.

Plus, did he hit a reactor directly, or was it just sympathetic explosions? I really don't know which, been a while since I've seen that scene.
He hit the reactor. The guy says so in the movie. And it's a civilian ship that has been specifically modified for war.

My problem with the scene where Annakin blows up the Trade Federation ship is more stylish than logic. I always find myself, comparing it with the attack on the Death Star, for obvious reasons ( small ships making a desperate attack on the enemy base ship to save the day).
In the original this is tense, men die, pilots deliberatley place themselves as human shields to protect those making the attack run and victory is gained but at a sacrifice so it means something.
In the Phantom Menace a 8 year old accidentally flies his ship straight through the enemies defences and by sheer luck blows it up. There is no skill, no challenge, no sacrifice and so it means nothing

This too is a problem in my book.

[Sillycomic]

On top of that, we just saw Qui Gon Jinn murdered not 5 minutes before Anakin saved the day.

Depending on whether or not you cared about the character, he was a relative good guy and he was just defeated by a bad guy. At the very least you feel bad for him.

And now the movies is ok with moving on and letting you be overjoyed that they won the battle?

Kinda makes me think people would be jumping up and dancing and being all excited... and then they realized Qui Gon was dead and they would say, "oh... right. I forgot. Sorry."

[Tavar]

Eh, you could say almost the same thing about the battle in New Hope. Everyone's joyous, even though there were many deaths. But they won in the end, the deaths weren't in vain, and they will be morned later. Now is a time for celebration.

Overall, though, yeah, Episode 1 had many, many problems. I just disagree that some things constitute problems.

[Sillycomic]

You're comparing the death of Porkins to the death of Qui Gon Jinn?

Um... not sure how to respond to that.

[Tavar]

Not so much that, but the situations are the same from an in universe perspective. And I thought that's what you were referring too.

[JonestheSpy]

You're comparing the death of Porkins to the death of Qui Gon Jinn?

Um... not sure how to respond to that.

Dude, it was the death of every other pilot except Luke and Wedge. And yeah, I felt more watching Porkins, Biggs, and the rest die in Star Wars (that's all the title it needed then) than in every minute of PhM added up - discounting the growing shock and dismay that Lucas made such a horrible film, that is.

Sometimes all you need is a couple of brushstrokes to make us see a whole person, while a fully rendered, high detail two-dimensional cardboard cutout still looks like a cardboard cutout.




In the Phantom Menace a 8 year old accidentally flies his ship straight through the enemies defences and by sheer luck blows it up. There is no skill, no challenge, no sacrifice and so it means nothing

Yeah, that was definitely one of the low points - I can't help thin king they wrote it like that so the 8 year olds in the audience could more easily identify with Anakin (talk about lowered expectations). Even when I came out of the theater I was thinking how much better it would have been if Young Vader had gone into some kind of force trance or something - you know, he's supposed to be so full of the super germs and all - so that it actually felt like a victory, instead of a kid getting lucky playing pinball. Of course the movie still would have had lousy editing, horrible racist stereotypes, a villain with almost zero character development (let alone dialogue), too many scenes of big fish eating other big fish, idiots making every important plot decision...but at least it would have had a better ending, which can make up for a lot.

[Tavar]

Actually, there were a few more survivors. But not many. And none of the others had gone on the trench run.

[Traab]

I gotta agree, the trench run versus the battle for naboo? Hands down trench battle wins for drama, action, and making me give a rats ass about whats happening.

"They came from... behind!"

[Sillycomic]

I wasn't comparing anything. You were. Where did I compare anything from Phantom Menace to New Hope? I think you might be confusing my point with someone elses.

I'm saying that was a downfall of the Phantom Menace. We just saw the death of perhaps the most important character in the movie, and its wedged in between Jar Jar playing with his Blue Balls and a 9 year old winning an entire war by himself.

That's not how you do things in a movie. Especially not if this death is supposed to inspire another character to avenge what happened.

[JonestheSpy]

I wasn't comparing anything. You were. Where did I compare anything from Phantom Menace to New Hope?

You strongly implied you thought there was something off about comparing Qui gon's death to the seen-only-briefly pilots attacking the Death Star. As in:



You're comparing the death of Porkins to the death of Qui Gon Jinn?

Um... not sure how to respond to that.

To which I say: Damn straight.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yKSo5xPjLpM/TDS6lL3Gc0I/AAAAAAAANmI/_Jlw-KQ_HLM/s1600/1porkins.png

[Tavar]

Ah, Piggy. :smallfrown:

It is interesting how often he's referenced in some of the other works, though.

[Sillycomic]

I strongly implied that I compared Porkins death to Qui Gon when I said:

You're comparing the death of Porkins to the death of Qui Gon Jinn?

Hmmm. I think that sentence means YOU strongly implied a comparison between Porkins and Qui Gon.

I mostly think that because the first word in that sentence is "YOU'RE" and it ends in a question mark.

[Tavar]

You're saying the ending was flawed because of X. I'm saying that I disagree that X was responsible, seeing as how X also happened in A New Hope, but that was considered a very good ending.

[Sillycomic]

Yes, and then I asked if you were really saying those two things are the same.

Do you really think the death of Qui Gon in Phantom Menace is similar as the ones of Porkins and others in New Hope?

Because, I don't think they are the same, and I don't think they can be compared.

[Tavar]

Why not? In particular, why not in the specific way you mentioned; both died, yet afterward the heroes were triumphant, and celebrated.

[Lord Seth]

The other problem with the end of Episode I vs. Episode IV is that the plan doesn't make sense. There's no reason to try to simultaneously shut down the droid control ship, distract the droids, and invade the palace at the same time. Why not just try to shut down the droid control ship, and then when that's done, waltz right into the capital and take it over without having to fight any droids? Episode IV's ending kept it simple and much more logical: Go in and shoot the torpedoes into the shaft to blow up the Death Star.

[Tavar]

Here's what I gathered; with the droid army occupying Thebes, they had no chance to infiltrate. Thus the Gungans brought them out of the city. The infiltration was primarily to get the pilots in those fighters, but they decided to continue, hoping to get hostages if something else doesn't work. The pilots were supposed to destroy the ship.

Yeah, complicated, and not well explained. Which is why it's considered a bad movie, I guess.

[Sillycomic]

Ahh, see now that is a very good question.

Sure, let's dissect why one movie failed where the other one didn't.

Phantom Menace.

You have too many plots climaxing at the same time. There's a war on the ground, there's a jedi battle at the temple, there's a Queen raiding her own castle and there's a young boy who gets to fly a spaceship for the first time.

Each scene has different emotions. Jar Jar is funny in the way that he bumbles through the battlefield. The Jedi fight is filled with tension. The Queen is filled with the lows of failing and getting kidnapped as well as the highs of turning the tables on the bad guys.

Each scene has a different emotional journey and yet they are all mish moshed together so that one minute you are laughing at Jar Jar, the next you are crying for Qui Gon, and then the next you are cheering for Anakin that saves the day. You never have any connection between these scenes.

So, you get all of 30 seconds to lament the death of a character before you're swept back into another scene. There's no emotion involved, and if there is it's short lived because Jar Jar fell over another droid trooper.

New Hope!

The young resistance fighters are outnumbered, outgunned, outmatched and even outmaneuvered as Darth Vader, one of the greatest pilots in the universe decides to join in on the fun of killing rebel scum.

The rebels realize that the only way to win is to go down this long trench filled with turrets and dodging fighters in order to hit this very small target.

They decide to run in threes. One point shooter and two people who know they are little more than cannon fodder for the many guns they know will be pointed at them.

Each death, such as Porkins, they know is useful because it will give the shooter, such as Luke, a few more seconds so he can make this run.

The tension builds like a knife. The first run isn't successful. The second one is so close. The final run sees Luke's two allies either die or have to leave because their ship is no longer functioning. You see Luke there by himself, he has no more allies, he still has a long way to go before the end of the trench and yet the bad guys are right behind him... inching closer, ready to strike.

And then in swoops the rogue you thought had left, coming back to save the day in the nick of time. The tension turns to excitement as you realize now there might be a chance. Luke hones in on his jedi skills and fires the single shot.

BOOM!

The day is theirs! Victory! While there were casualties, people know that those deaths were for a good cause and celebration of what happened here today includes grief over those who had fallen.



That is why there is no comparison.

That is why one movie fails when they kill off good guys during the climax and the other succeeds brilliantly.

[JonestheSpy]

Do you really think the death of Qui Gon in Phantom Menace is similar as the ones of Porkins and others in New Hope?

Because, I don't think they are the same, and I don't think they can be compared.

Well, we're in agreement, I don't think they're the same at all either. The death of Porkins and the others was jarring, disturbing, and saddening, even though I barely knew the characters. I knew they were brave men who knew they were on a near hopeless mission who did their best anyway and died, and they all had just enough individuality that I understood that an actual person died, alone in space.

When Qui Gon died it was just Liam Niessen doing his death scene at the end of a lousy film - which also demonstrates another advantage Star Wars had over the prequels. The unknown actors were better at inhabiting the roles than the celebrities, who you could never completely forget were Famous Actors.

[Tavar]

True, but that's not quite what you said originally. You implied that a death so close to a triumph was odd, and made the movie fall flat. But that's not the real issue. It's that there's 4 different plots going on, but none are integrated together, and they have very different emotions running though them. So it's just a mess.

[Sillycomic]

I think that is what I said. Maybe I didn't articulate it enough. Well, at least I did now.

I didn't care so much about the 4 scenes meshing together. I mostly just thought it was sad to see the one interesting part of the movie, the death of Qui Gon, kinda just shunted away because other stuff was going on.

The death of a main character by a main villain needs some weight to it. Especially if that death has to inspire another main character.

But, I guess that is yet another problem. We never really cared about Qui Gon, so it wasn't a big deal that he died... and we never felt for Obi Wan when he saw this death and then got all angry.

The 4 other plots going on is just another part of the mess as well.


And... if I'm not mistaken wasn't the whole climax of the movie orchestrated by Queen Amidala? Isn't she like 14 years old? Why is she making decision of what should happen? Doesn't she have a bodyguard with years of experience and an entire army of Dungans with generals and lieutenants who have seen combat before? And two Jedi Fighters as well?

What is this little girl doing orchestrating a war?

[JonestheSpy]

What is this little girl doing orchestrating a war?

Well, they must have elected her Queen for a reason...(sarcastic emoticon here).

[Traab]

Here's what I gathered; with the droid army occupying Thebes, they had no chance to infiltrate. Thus the Gungans brought them out of the city. The infiltration was primarily to get the pilots in those fighters, but they decided to continue, hoping to get hostages if something else doesn't work. The pilots were supposed to destroy the ship.

Yeah, complicated, and not well explained. Which is why it's considered a bad movie, I guess.

Actually, the plan was always to try and capture the viceroy after sending the pilots up into space. If nute gunray had escaped, he could have just come back later with a new droid army. Or otherwise pretended he never did anything and had his sith partner/master cover for him in the senate.

It was a fairly straightforward plan really. Decoy the droid army out of the capitol and keep them busy. Infiltrate the palace, where for some unknown reason they are imprisoning the pilots in the hangar with all the ships. Capture the viceroy so they have him as a hostage/proof of the trade federations involvement. Then destroy the droid control ship so the army, which pretty heavily outguns them, is stopped. The problem is, they kept switching back and forth, and all this was going on at the same time. Throw in a jedi versus sith battle and thats just too many differently paced grand climaxes all going on at the same time.

[Sillycomic]

It was a straight forward plan, but it relied too heavily on making assumptions for the bad guys that make no sense.

1. Drawing out the droid army to fight in the open planes with Dungans. Why would the droid army go out to attack when they're holding down an occupied city? What if it's an ambush? Why not just use long ranged weaponry to take them out? Why not split up the droid army so that there's still plenty left in the city in case something happens.

2. The Viceroy will stay in the palace long enough to be captured. He could have bolted the moment he knew something was wrong. In fact, the moment the droids said, "Oh, looks like those jedi are back," he could have easily booked back up to the safety of his ship and not dealt with any of this.

Oh, also... The Viceroy isn't surrounded by like 18 of those rolling droids with shields that are nearly impossible to destroy.

In fact, why isn't the entire Droid army consist of those little buggers?

Seriously.... the moment you look back at the footage and see how easy the Jedi took down regular droids and how hard it was to take down rolling droids, why wasn't there an all alerts bulletin to have an entire Rolly Polly Droid army?

3. Destroy the droid ship. First, where did all those other droid ships go? Who says they won't come light speeding back at any moment? Why do the Naboo people think their pilots even have a chance? I guess if it's a suicide mission it doesn't matter if they have a chance... because it's either do this or just give up.

Why didn't they try suicide tactics like Anikan's? Dive bombing into the huge ship hoping you might hit a main reactor seems like a perfectly logical plan when you are outmanned and gunned such as they are.

If the plan relies heavily on just one malfunction from the huge control ship, why didn't the Jedi do something? Didn't Obi Wan sneak around the Death Star and turn off the tractor beam in New Hope? Why aren't the Jedi doing something similar?

This is partially answered because at the moment they need to fight Darth Maul, but they didn't know he was there until the blast doors opened. In fact, as far as I can tell the Jedi were just protecting the Queen... who honestly had no right being there in the first place.

Seriously, this is a 14 year old girl! Her plans sucks, and at the front of it she decides to throw herself head first into an occupied city to kidnap someone that 3 days ago kidnapped her? The entire plot centers around her being alive and free of capture, so obviously the most important place for her is on the front lines.

[JonestheSpy]

Seriously, this is a 14 year old girl!

Hey now! She's the Queen! They elected her!




Sorry, just can't get over that particular bit of ridiculousness.

Darths and Droids makes it better though.

[Sillycomic]

Oh yeah. I love Darth and Droids. I spent an entire weekend catching up on the series. It was soo cool.

Also, this thread has inspired me to watch the Red Letter Media Star Wars Review posts over again. I must implore any of you who haven't seen this yet to give it a look.

This man will tell you everything you need to know about why you hate this movie soo much.

http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace/


Darths and Droids is here:

http://www.darthsanddroids.net/archive1.html

[TheThan]

copy and pasted from the other thread:



The movies do not connect with the audience. In the original series, you began to care about what happened to the main characters. The battle between Luke and Vader put you on the edge of your seat, you knew Luke was in way over his head, and you were waiting to see how he managed to win the day. The audience cared that Han got frozen in Carbonite, and wondered if his friends were going to rescue him. The prequel series sparks none of these emotions in the audience. I think this is partly because we already know what going to happen.


Poorly though out story. Primarily the story is the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker, with the secondary story of the fall of the republic and the rise of the Empire. However there is no real turning point, we never really see Anakin begin down that slippery slope and begin his downward spiral into “EVIL”. Instead it’s a sudden event 2/3s way through episode 3. We don’t really get to see what causes the republic to fall. All of the sudden, Palaptine is declaring himself Emperor.


Badly written script. This is tied to point 2. Very few of the decisions made in the prequel movies make any obvious sense. Why trust a 9 year old kid to get them off the planet, when it involves him doing something nearly suicidal? Why do the Jedi refuse to train the kid, wouldn’t he be less of a threat under their supervision? Why does the Trade federation want to blockade Naboo? What are they getting out of it? Why do they have a seemingly random connection to Darth Sidious?


Poor acting. This is really a shame, as Lucas did cast several solid actors in these films. The actors are forced to act with digital characters and against digital environments. This means there is nothing for the actors to actually act and react to, everything is blue or green screen. Also Lucas is renowned for not likening to work with actors, meaning he has no patience for it. As we’ve seen with various “behind the scenes” interviews of him, he’d rather do it digitally than give the actors a chance to actually act and get a scene right.


Poorly though out special effects. Star wars has always had fantastic special effects. However, where in the original trilogy, it was always pushed to the background and was simply part of the universe. If the heroes need to get off a planet, they simply got in their ship and left. These movies were not made to showcase the special effects. However in the prequel series, we get the feeling that the movies were made to showcase ILM’s ability to make stuff on a computer. We have digital characters, digital extras (clones), digital backgrounds as opposed to actual sets and locations, digital this, digital that. Nothing gives you that sense of realism, of familiarity. That’s one key feature that makes the original series so endearing to fans; it feels like it could really be taking place in a galaxy far far away. In the new series, everything feels fake and artificial, like it really doesn't exist. The Verisimilitude simply isn’t there.

[Xondoure]

I recall going into the theaters as a little kid seeing the phantom menace and liking it but not as much as the previous star wars movies. Why? Because the droids were really really annoying.

In my opinion the whol plot was silly and they should have started with attack of the clones and made what is the clone wars tv series into the second film, then made the whole thing a lot darker up until Revenge of the Sith so it doesn't just come out of nowhere. Oh and not have the stupidest romance ever concieved.

As a little kid I also remember Attack of the Clones being the coolest action movie evah though so take that as you will.

Specifically each film should have torn down something precious of Anakin's and shattered his world view each time, but not have him cry like a baby. Just get back up and do the best he can with the world he's forced to deal with. So by the end you really do feel he's still just trying to do whats best. Best I can explain it is build up some sympathy for Vader not turn him into a whiny brat. A pragmatic but kind hearted Anakin who slowly feels the whole world is going insane should be a very compelling story, and yet through a combination of fluffy pig ballon rides and sobbing contests I didn't care about Anakin at all.

[Philistine]

Its one thing to have the aircraft fuel and weapons in the hangar, thats where they belong, but they basically had their freaking nuclear reactor there.
That's not what you asked. You asked (I quote again), "What kind of nimrod puts a critical, explosive device in an area as easy to access as the HANGAR BAY!" The fact is that explosions on the hangar deck have historically been the second-biggest killer of aircraft carriers in wartime (after only the submarine-launched torpedo), and the single greatest threat to carriers in peacetime service (google or wiki "Forrestal fire").


Exactly, Aside from the fact that Tibanna gas wasn't explosive last time I checked.

He hit the reactor. The guy says so in the movie. And it's a civilian ship that has been specifically modified for war.
Well, a) Tibanna gas is mentioned in the movie exactly how many times? Right.

And b) see above - what Anakin hit or didn't hit isn't relevant to my answer to Traab's question; to wit, that hangar bays should by default be assumed to contain lots of stuff that goes boom.

Also, c) who exactly was it that claimed that Anakin hit the droid control ship's reactor? Because IIRC the only non-droid who was actually in a position to have seen what went down was Anakin himself - none of the Naboo pilots and none of the TradeFed leadership were there on the hangar deck to see what his shots hit (as opposed to what might have gone up due to sympathetic or secondary explosions).


Poor acting. This is really a shame, as Lucas did cast several solid actors in these films. The actors are forced to act with digital characters and against digital environments. This means there is nothing for the actors to actually act and react to, everything is blue or green screen. Also Lucas is renowned for not likening to work with actors, meaning he has no patience for it. As we’ve seen with various “behind the scenes” interviews of him, he’d rather do it digitally than give the actors a chance to actually act and get a scene right.
This could more accurately be called a case of poor directing. Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman - heck, even Hayden Panetterr, Christiansen - they've done well, sometimes even superbly, in other roles. You know, when given halfway decent dialogue and competent direction. :smallamused:

It's good to remember that any performance that makes it onto the screen is going to be, by and large, exactly what the director called for. Directors can do multiple takes, coach their actors, fiddle with things in post-production, etc. etc. - all the way up to recasting the part and starting over - until they get a scene that plays out the way they want. That's even more than usually the case in the PT, where GL had total creative control; so the wooden characterizations, the awkward, stilted line deliveries... every bit of that is on Lucas's head.

[TheArsenal]

Alright, I did my research. The Ships where in fact Modified Trade ships BUT, their only disguised to look innocent. In fact they are heavily armored and well armed. In addition the last left ship was the FLAGSHIP meaning it would have the best stuff.

Im not going to argue about lazers or stuff. Im going to say that GL did not care. He ran into a wall. "How does Anikin get in?....The Door was open!"

You may argue that there where protective Lazers (That didnt fire much) or that the shields take up a long time to get up (Missing the point of shields, the fact that they are lazer shields and should go up quickly), or that that the person wasn't watching the doors (Though we see that droids man the whole ship).

Im going to argue that that scene looks stupid and that GL just didnt care. If scenes like this didn't keep cropping up (Scenes in which enemies, pause, do stupid actions, dont fire, challange jedis to one on one battles even though you could kill him right now, to the will of the plot), and we had a scene that showed the shield controller got destroyed or got damaged then maybe I would let this slide. Otherwise this is an obviously sloppy writing.


Edit: In addition why isnt the reactor in the middle of the ship? The Donut part houses equipment and droids, and the middle is the control bay.

[Xondoure]

That's not what you asked. You asked (I quote again), "What kind of nimrod puts a critical, explosive device in an area as easy to access as the HANGAR BAY!" The fact is that explosions on the hangar deck have historically been the second-biggest killer of aircraft carriers in wartime (after only the submarine-launched torpedo), and the single greatest threat to carriers in peacetime service (google or wiki "Forrestal fire").


Well, a) Tibanna gas is mentioned in the movie exactly how many times? Right.

And b) see above - what Anakin hit or didn't hit isn't relevant to my answer to Traab's question; to wit, that hangar bays should by default be assumed to contain lots of stuff that goes boom.

Also, c) who exactly was it that claimed that Anakin hit the droid control ship's reactor? Because IIRC the only non-droid who was actually in a position to have seen what went down was Anakin himself - none of the Naboo pilots and none of the TradeFed leadership were there on the hangar deck to see what his shots hit (as opposed to what might have gone up due to sympathetic or secondary explosions).


This argument seems to have gotten a little out of hand... no matter how silly or not silly the hangar bay being open and explosive was I sincerely hope we can all agree that that was not by a long shot the biggest fault of the prequels right? ...right?



This could more accurately be called a case of poor directing. Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman - heck, even Hayden Panetterr, Christiansen - they've done well, sometimes even superbly, in other roles. You know, when given halfway decent dialogue and competent direction. :smallamused:

It's good to remember that any performance that makes it onto the screen is going to be, by and large, exactly what the director called for. Directors can do multiple takes, coach their actors, fiddle with things in post-production, etc. etc. - all the way up to recasting the part and starting over - until they get a scene that plays out the way they want. That's even more than usually the case in the PT, where GL had total creative control; so the wooden characterizations, the awkward, stilted line deliveries... every bit of that is on Lucas's head.

Yeah, I find a good rule of thumb when things go badly is
Theater- blame the actors
TV- blame the writers
Film- blame the directors/producers

When things go really well usually everyone is doing their job.

[Sholos]

The lasers can obviously pierce the shields anyway, wasn't that how the shield generator was hit in the first place? Why is the shield generator (a super important piece of equipment on a ship) on the outside where a random laser can hit it anyway? Shouldn't it be tucked neatly in like the bowels of the ship with multiple layers of plating to protect it?

Okay, this one I think I can answer, and the reason is that the shield generators have to be on the outside of the ship because otherwise the shield would have to go up through the ship's material. Look at the Start Destroyers, for example. The big huge ball things are the shield generators. This, at least, is consistent with SW canon.


That depends on the controls, obviously they were similar enough that he could fly the fighter. That said, he obviously didn't know a number of things about the fighter, as we can see when he fires off the torpedoes by accident.

There is no way you can convince me that a fighter is going to have controls that are in any way similar to a podracer. For one, there's a whole other dimension to worry about with a fighter. Luke's experience made a bit of sense, since what he was flying was in some way similar to the X-Wing. Anakin's podracer (which was self-built, I might add, making it even more unlikely that it would have controls similar to a professionally produced fighter) is absolutely nothing like what he climbed into.


Actually, there were a few more survivors. But not many. And none of the others had gone on the trench run.

If I remember correctly, it was Wedge, Luke, and some Y-Wings. Nothing else returned. No X- or A-Wings. B-Wings did not exist at the time.

[The Big Dice]

If I remember correctly, it was Wedge, Luke, and some Y-Wings. Nothing else returned. No X- or A-Wings. B-Wings did not exist at the time.
I don't think A-Wings existed until RotJ.

But the biggest problem with Episode 1 is, they made it.

[Sillycomic]

There is no way you can convince me that a fighter is going to have controls that are in any way similar to a podracer.

No way at all?

Hmm, well I know Anakin built the pod from scratch but I imagine working at a scrap yard he has a lot of access to fighter ships and parts. So he would know what a console of most standard fighters looks like. He could easily have designed his own pod racer based on standard controls on these fighters.

And... while he may have built the pod racer it would have been easier to grab some sort of fighter console inlay or control panel and just stick it to the front of his pod racer to get the right controls.

It would save him lots of times when it comes to building a control panel, wiring, welding and the like.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Anakin's interpretation of "built it from scratch," means, "combined a couple of scrapped pod racers together to make one that works... kinda!"

Not that I'm saying that's what he did, but at least I hope it was convincing.

[Traab]

That's not what you asked. You asked (I quote again), "What kind of nimrod puts a critical, explosive device in an area as easy to access as the HANGAR BAY!" The fact is that explosions on the hangar deck have historically been the second-biggest killer of aircraft carriers in wartime (after only the submarine-launched torpedo), and the single greatest threat to carriers in peacetime service (google or wiki "Forrestal fire").

By critical explosive device I didnt mean a pile of missiles, or a tank of fuel, I meant a device critical to the ship that tends to explode when hit! Thats just plain stupid, whether its civilian or military. Thats like taking a Nimitz class carrier, and putting its reactor on deck!

[Tavar]

But one explosion leads to another. Especially when there's lots of explosive material nearby. It's called Sympathetic detonation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_detonation).

Also, remember, this is a trade ship. having the reactor be easy to access makes a lot of sense;easier to repair means less money spent that way, and less time spent up in drydock.

[The Big Dice]

Also, remember, this is a trade ship. having the reactor be easy to access makes a lot of sense;easier to repair means less money spent that way, and less time spent up in drydock.
It wamkes sense in the same way that Palpatine's actions, Darth Maul getting killed when he did and the gas attack on the Jedi at the beginning of the movie make sense.

It doesn't.

[Tavar]

And the issue with that logic? Can you elaborate, because so far I haven't heard an actual reason for why that doesn't make sense.

[Traab]

And the issue with that logic? Can you elaborate, because so far I haven't heard an actual reason for why that doesn't make sense.


It doesnt make sense because nobody, no matter how stupid, puts the primary power generator in an easily accessed location with no protection. THE HANGAR BAY! They had the primary energy plant of the ship in the HANGAR BAY! Thats like putting the big red self destruct button for your evil lair in the parking lot of a nearby 7-11! Its stupid and makes no sense!

Yes I get it, I know that carriers blow up all the time due to explosions in the aircraft hangars, but you dont see the nuclear power plant sitting next to the jet fuel now do you? Theres no reason to make it even more vulnerable to total destruction.

[TheArsenal]

It doesnt make sense because nobody, no matter how stupid, puts the primary power generator in an easily accessed location with no protection. THE HANGAR BAY! They had the primary energy plant of the ship in the HANGAR BAY! Thats like putting the big red self destruct button for your evil lair in the parking lot of a nearby 7-11! Its stupid and makes no sense!

Yes I get it, I know that carriers blow up all the time due to explosions in the aircraft hangars, but you dont see the nuclear power plant sitting next to the jet fuel now do you? Theres no reason to make it even more vulnerable to total destruction.

In addition it would distribute energy unevenly. A reactor in the middle of the ship could transfer power more smoother. There is a reason the Enterprise has the Core reactor thingy in the middle of the ship. Not in its hanger bay.

[Philistine]

How do we know that was the ship's main reactor, though? Because some random Naboo fighter pilot - who was a) busy fighting for his life against swarms of droid fighters at the time and b) did not have line of sight into the hangar bay anyway - said someone "must have hit the reactor"? That's just the pilot's guess as to what happened (and remember, at that point he also doesn't have any idea who could have done such a thing, or how). For all we know, Anakin's target was just a droid fighter recharge station which was left 'live' when it should have been shut off, and its destruction while in an unsafe state destabilized the primary powerplant, resulting in the loss of the entire ship.

IF that thing was the ship's main reactor, then that would be even worse than you're all supposing. When Anakin's fighter belly-landed in the hangar bay, it slid around to face back toward the entrance. So in that case, the ship's main reactor would have to be pretty much right next to the hangar bay door. No, it's got to be something else, and the Naboo pilot's guess was just wrong.

[Eric Tolle]

It doesnt make sense because nobody, no matter how stupid, puts the primary power generator in an easily accessed location with no protection. THE HANGAR BAY! They had the primary energy plant of the ship in the HANGAR BAY! Thats like putting the big red self destruct button for your evil lair in the parking lot of a nearby 7-11! Its stupid and makes no sense.

Well of course they had to put the reactor in the hanger bay, in such a way that a stray torpedo could blow up the ship. Otherwise, how could the Trade Federation ship be blown to pieces by a nine year-old? Flying a fighter he's never been in before. By accident.

Likewise, of course the Trade Federation didn't have redundant control systems for their droid army, because otherwise, when the nine-year old kid blows up their command ship by accident, the droids wouldn't be disabled.

And of course there was no way to get parts for the spaceship other than entering a nine year-old kid in a dangerous race. Because otherwise, the nine year-old kid wouldn't win the race, and get taken with the rest of the group.

See how logically it all hangs together? Remember, the power of rewriting by committee is NOTHING compared to the Power of the Lucas.

[Sillycomic]

There must be something wrong with me, because the more I think about Star Wars Episode 1 the more I see a really good movie that is just begging to be let out of a mediocre one. I feel like it’s that old saying about Jazz, “You need to hear the notes they don’t play.”

For Star Wars you need to see the movie that isn’t being shown because of all the crappy CGI running around.

First of all, the princess is a stuck up snot. She thinks everything revolves around her and she wants everything done now. She has no experience leading both politically or militarily and yet she’s the one commanding both.

Whenever she doesn’t get her way in the movie she just storms off to the next place. Her Palace is taken over by droids so she storms off to Coruscant. The council asks her quite nicely to send out a team to verify her story and she just storms back to Naboo to do things herself.

She is stuck up, spoiled, insensitive to others and in the end is only thinking about herself. What a great movie that would have been to seen her play up to this!

The Trade federation is a bunch of weak executives that wouldn’t know how to operate a war if it came with an instruction manual and double A batteries. Everything they do is either too much or too little.

Set up a blockade around a planet with no army? Sure, let’s use 800 ships!

Deploying the droid army? Jjust set them down anywhere, even if it’s the other side of the planet to where they need to be.

Assassinating elite Jedi warriors? Just use some gas and then open the room filled with gas 2 minutes later to start blasting them. Sure why not. Then when they escape just pretend like nothing happened and move on with your strategies.

You finally kidnap the princess that your entire plan is based around? Meh, just take her to be processed by these useless droids. You’ve won, things are fine now!

Never once question the person in the cloak telling you what to do or why you are doing it.

There is a group of resistance fighters finally trying to stop you? Send your entire droid army to try and stop them. Yes pull them away from the occupied city, there’s no reason to keep this fortified position when they want to fight out in an open field.

The Federation are bumbling idiots who treat every problem by ignoring it or overkilling it. What a great movie this would have been if they recognized it?

Both together? You have a group of idiots trying to organize a war against a spoiled little girl who just wants everything her way? That is a good movie! It’s not really a Star Wars movie, but it’s a good movie.

And then throw a delusional jedi fighter like Qui Gon and you are golden.

Qui Gon is delusional and beyond help in this movie. He’s one of those aging gunmen that don’t understand the world has moved on. He constantly talks about old prophecies and feels like everyone around him is incompetent.

He doesn’t mind using his jedi powers for mundane things such as getting a transporter or fixing a bet. He is fine with bringing children into an open battlefield and he will fight with every single one of his friends to prove that his own crazy theory is the right one.

I wish this note had been played in the movie. How much more fun would it be for Lliam Neeson if he realized his character was the anti-hero?

To compliment this you have a young Obi Wan who resents being tied to this aging and dangerous fossil. He would rather just sit on a ship than to feed his master’s own delusions. He constantly questions Qui Gon’s choices and only follows him because in a few short months he can take the trials and be done with this crazy lunatic..

These are all notes in the movie that are almost played. If you look at the movie carefully you can see remnants of these characters and personality and flaws in each of them, just underneath the surface begging to be released from their CGI prison that is known as The Phantom Menace.

I just hope that someday people can look at this movie and see the notes that aren’t being played and think to themselves, “Wow, that’s brilliant.”

[druid91]

How do we know that was the ship's main reactor, though? Because some random Naboo fighter pilot - who was a) busy fighting for his life against swarms of droid fighters at the time and b) did not have line of sight into the hangar bay anyway - said someone "must have hit the reactor"? That's just the pilot's guess as to what happened (and remember, at that point he also doesn't have any idea who could have done such a thing, or how). For all we know, Anakin's target was just a droid fighter recharge station which was left 'live' when it should have been shut off, and its destruction while in an unsafe state destabilized the primary powerplant, resulting in the loss of the entire ship.

IF that thing was the ship's main reactor, then that would be even worse than you're all supposing. When Anakin's fighter belly-landed in the hangar bay, it slid around to face back toward the entrance. So in that case, the ship's main reactor would have to be pretty much right next to the hangar bay door. No, it's got to be something else, and the Naboo pilot's guess was just wrong.

The problem with that is the part where the Neimoidian with the cyber eyes says "Sir we lost the main reactor!"

[Sillycomic]

He actually says, "We're losing power, there seems to be a problem with the main reactor."

So, while whatever Anakin hit might not have been the main reactor, it's tied very closely to it... and if you blow it up you have basically blown up the main reactor and the rest of the ship as well.

[druid91]

He actually says, "We're losing power, there seems to be a problem with the main reactor."

So, while whatever Anakin hit might not have been the main reactor, it's tied very closely to it... and if you blow it up you have basically blown up the main reactor and the rest of the ship as well.

Even so... Thats almost as bad.

[MoelVermillion]

Alright. FIVE halfhearted shots and still no ships.


I don't think anyone ever followed up on this so I'm providing you with a marked screen shot so you can see the ship.

http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab170/tsythe4th/vlcsnap-2011-03-18-01h46m19s28.png

As you can see there is a ship in shot leaving just before Anakin enters the hangar bay so I don't think its too far fetched to say that the hangar was open to let that ship out.

The situation surrounding the reactor on the other hand is very stupid. They either left it in the main hangar or had enough explosives between it and the hangar that an accident in the hangar could have destroyed it. Either way, very dumb.

[TheArsenal]

I don't think anyone ever followed up on this so I'm providing you with a marked screen shot so you can see the ship.

http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab170/tsythe4th/vlcsnap-2011-03-18-01h46m19s28.png



"Close it. AS FAST AS YOU CAN! **** the fighter, a guy is almost WITHIN our ship! Who cares if one of our own blows up, their a robot, they can take it. Save the ship!"


But thanks for the screenshot.

[Forum Explorer]

"Close it. AS FAST AS YOU CAN! **** the fighter, a guy is almost WITHIN our ship! Who cares if one of our own blows up, their a robot, they can take it. Save the ship!"


But thanks for the screenshot.

Its all robot controlled. It reads enemy ship closing and allied ship within crunch range and has to wait until the allied ship is out first.

[TheArsenal]

Its all robot controlled. It reads enemy ship closing and allied ship within crunch range and has to wait until the allied ship is out first.

It shouldn't be that way. The Bots are expendable, and 1 lost fighter is better than 1 lost flagship.

[TheThan]

This could more accurately be called a case of poor directing. Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman - heck, even Hayden Panetterr, Christiansen - they've done well, sometimes even superbly, in other roles. You know, when given halfway decent dialogue and competent direction. :smallamused:

It's good to remember that any performance that makes it onto the screen is going to be, by and large, exactly what the director called for. Directors can do multiple takes, coach their actors, fiddle with things in post-production, etc. etc. - all the way up to recasting the part and starting over - until they get a scene that plays out the way they want. That's even more than usually the case in the PT, where GL had total creative control; so the wooden characterizations, the awkward, stilted line deliveries... every bit of that is on Lucas's head.

That's what I was getting at, its not entirely the actor's fault. I'm sure they tried their best with what they were given. But when your given crap, well it just stinks.

[Forum Explorer]

It shouldn't be that way. The Bots are expendable, and 1 lost fighter is better than 1 lost flagship.

Thats why my prof says poor programming kills. :smalltongue:

[TheArsenal]

Thats why my prof says poor programming kills. :smalltongue:

Im begining to become very sad at the prospect that this plothole can be seamlessly fixed with WWAID (What would an Idiot do). Leave the crapin doors open!

[Traab]

It shouldn't be that way. The Bots are expendable, and 1 lost fighter is better than 1 lost flagship.


They wouldnt have even lost that much if they put the reactor in a heavily shielded area. Remember the sith fight in naboo? They had to run through a DOZEN LAYERS OF SHIELDS to reach the main reactor area. Anakin had to plummet through an open door.

[Tavar]

Actually, according to Wookiepedia, that was an auxiliary generator added later, in a refit. The reason for this was that they lacked the power needed to run the ship with all of the extra weapons. Unfortunately, for them, the cost cutting installation meant it lacked appropriate shielding. The ship was destroyed by sympathetic detonation.

Of course they didn't expect to have a real war on their hands, nor for their droid fighters to be so inept(seriously, I think they outnumbered the opposition something like 100:1).

[TheArsenal]

Actually, according to Wookiepedia, that was an auxiliary generator added later, in a refit. The reason for this was that they lacked the power needed to run the ship with all of the extra weapons. Unfortunately, for them, the cost cutting installation meant it lacked appropriate shielding. The ship was destroyed by sympathetic detonation.

Of course they didn't expect to have a real war on their hands, nor for their droid fighters to be so inept(seriously, I think they outnumbered the opposition something like 100:1).

Stop it. Stop with this "Didnt expect to have a war on thier hands". What If the Senate suddenly gathered up an army and attacked them? With professional equipment? They could have had a large scale battle on their hands especially since they left only one ship behind.And close the dam door. They could have possibly entered a full out war with the senate. They had no idea what was coming.

Oh and "Budget cuts" really? Thats all they could come up with? So im supposed to fear:

Driods that cannot Shoot
An ill equipped rebellion (That cannot even protect thier nuclear reactor)
Filled with idiots.

The Scenes in the Prequels work in Reverse.

In 4-6 it works like this:

Explanation Given. Stuff Happens based on reasons.

We see Obi wan Deactivate the Thingy. Ship is now free.

Episode 1:

Something stupid happens, books, comics, videogames poorly cover them up.

Whats next? That Droids are programmed not to fire until shields are up on a ship?

In episode 4 we didnt need a novel to explain that the controls to the thingy jammed conveniently at the time.

[Reverent-One]

Stop it. Stop with this "Didnt expect to have a war on thier hands". What If the Senate suddenly gathered up an army and attacked them? With professional equipment? They could have had a large scale battle on their hands especially since they left only one ship behind.And close the dam door. They could have possibly entered a full out war with the senate. They had no idea what was coming.

First thing is that Sidious was handling the Senate, but even if he somehow couldn't, you don't just gather up an interstellar army overnight. It just doesn't happen.


Driods that cannot Shoot

Sure they can shoot, hence why they beat the gungans.


An ill equipped rebellion (That cannot even protect thier nuclear reactor)

One pilot pulls off a million in one event and gets in, it's not that they weren't well equipped enough, it's just hard to predict something that's incredibly unlikely to happen.

[TheArsenal]

First thing is that Sidious was handling the Senate, but even if he somehow couldn't, you don't just gather up an interstellar army overnight. It just doesn't happen.

But it could over a month. Then they have no way to get budget. THEN they would be royaly screwed....Why where they attacking again?


Sure they can shoot, hence why they beat the gungans.

Yet they cannot shoot unless its convenient. Gungans? Fine. Jedis? Wait until they kill them. At least stormtroopers where shooting from a distance. They wherent literally surrounding, nearly gunpoint, all the characters when fight scenes happened


One pilot pulls off a million in one event and gets in, it's not that they weren't well equipped enough, it's just hard to predict something that's incredibly unlikely to happen.

Flying through open door. GL just ran into a plot wall. He just had the bay open. You know all my arguments already.

[druid91]

My question is what happened to that enourmous cannon in the hangar bay from the begining?

[Traab]

My question is what happened to that enourmous cannon in the hangar bay from the begining?

They didnt have time to activate it? Maybe they thought the ship crash landed and didnt need to be blown up just yet? Plot armor?

[Reverent-One]

But it could over a month. Then they have no way to get budget. THEN they would be royaly screwed....Why where they attacking again?

Because Sidious told them too.


Yet they cannot shoot unless its convenient. Gungans? Fine. Jedis? Wait until they kill them. At least stormtroopers where shooting from a distance. They wherent literally surrounding, nearly gunpoint, all the characters when fight scenes happened

And that's why the Droidikas sent the Jedi running, because they didn't fire at them?


Flying through open door. GL just ran into a plot wall. He just had the bay open. You know all my arguments already.

They had the "door"(or in this case, shield) open momentarily to let some fighters out, Anakin got lucky/was guided by the force to be there at just the right time.

[TheArsenal]

Because Sidious told them too.

And they Trust him cause? Even If he made me the man I am today I wouldn't do it. I would ask why?


And that's why the Droidikas sent the Jedi running, because they didn't fire at them?

Well Mostly from the distance, to ensure that the shots didnt hit them

Lets stop with the hanger bay argument shall we? I say that they had time to close the shields, you argue for not. I hope we can both agree that Lucas ran into a wall, and created a very stupid plot climax.


Edit: And George made sure that The Trade Feds used less of them so that the jedis have no conflicts whatsoever.

And although you say that It was an additional genarator, was it necacary? From a film perspective? If there as only one installed it wouldn't have made a difference to the audience.

The thing is you try to justify film mistakes with logic. You refer to a long list of cover ups ignoring that from a film perspective they all suck. Sure two Genarators is nice. But I didnt know that. There could have been just one for all we knew.

Instead of changing the entire scene for a better resolution George just makes the film match what he wantss.

[Eric Tolle]

They wouldnt have even lost that much if they put the reactor in a heavily shielded area.

But if they did that, then the ship wouldn't explode when Anakin fired some random shots! What are THINKING man, are you trying to destroy the whole series? :smalltongue:

[Reverent-One]

And they Trust him cause? Even If he made me the man I am today I wouldn't do it. I would ask why?

It's obvious from merely watching the movie that they're scared of him. Do they go into detail as to why? No, but it doesn't really matter specifically why. The important point is that they're scared of him and thus, follow his orders.


Well Mostly from the distance, to ensure that the shots didnt hit them

No, they were quite accurate, the Jedi just have this nasty habit of deflecting laser shots. I advise that you make sure you know what happens in the movies before criticizing them.


Lets stop with the hanger bay argument shall we? I say that they had time to close the shields, you argue for not. I hope we can both agree that Lucas ran into a wall, and created a very stupid plot climax.

No, we can't agree on that. It's not unreasonable that whoever was watching sensors didn't notice one lone fighter, out of dozens swarming around the ship, getting too close to the hanger bay when the shields were about to drop for a moment until it was too late to get the shields up in time. It's a matter of seconds we're talking about here.

[Dr.Epic]

This is my biggest problem with Episode I:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_X3lNYc1hcaE/TGsIJJpY3NI/AAAAAAAAAxU/_eQ28v8s8_U/s1600/232980-jar_jar_binks_large.jpeg

[Philistine]

My question is what happened to that enourmous cannon in the hangar bay from the begining?

Anakin's fighter was much smaller than the Jedi courier at the start of the movie, and also appeared to be farther inside; it could well be that the big gun just didn't have an angle on him.

Seriously, I cannot believe that for some of you guys, these tiny little nitpicks are your big gripes about that movie. What about, "GL set the villains of the piece up to double as comic relief, making it essentially impossible to ever consider them a legitimate threat (and their "comedy" wasn't even funny)"? What about, "Every second that any Gungan is on-screen is fundamentally irrelevant to the plot"? What about, "There's absolutely no indication of what's at stake for any of the players"? What about, "Lucas couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag, and couldn't direct water to flow out of a boot with the instructions to do so printed on the heel"? Or - shoot, I could go on like this (and on, and on, and on) until the shredded stumps of my fingers fall off my hands and plop down on the keyboard in a soggy red mass, without ever getting down to the level of piddling detail that's under scrutiny here. It's like grousing about low-quality stitching on the cushions of the deck chairs on the Titanic, post-iceberg.

[druid91]

Anakin's fighter was much smaller than the Jedi courier at the start of the movie, and also appeared to be farther inside; it could well be that the big gun just didn't have an angle on him.

Seriously, I cannot believe that for some of you guys, these tiny little nitpicks are your big gripes about that movie. What about, "GL set the villains of the piece up to double as comic relief, making it essentially impossible to ever consider them a legitimate threat (and their "comedy" wasn't even funny)"? What about, "Every second that any Gungan is on-screen is fundamentally irrelevant to the plot"? What about, "There's absolutely no indication of what's at stake for any of the players"? What about, "Lucas couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag, and couldn't direct water to flow out of a boot with the instructions to do so printed on the heel"? Or - shoot, I could go on like this (and on, and on, and on) until the shredded stumps of my fingers fall off my hands and plop down on the keyboard in a soggy red mass, without ever getting down to the level of piddling detail that's under scrutiny here. It's like grousing about low-quality stitching on the cushions of the deck chairs on the Titanic, post-iceberg.

Well see. I can ignore most of those. Its the blatantly ridiculous that annoys me. The empire was a credible threat. noone is a credible threat in the prequels.

[TheArsenal]

]It's obvious from merely watching the movie that they're scared of him. Do they go into detail as to why? No, but it doesn't really matter specifically why. The important point is that they're scared of him and thus, follow his orders.

I find it hard to believe that ALL of the leaders suddenly wet their pants.
Some luney guy in a cloak told them so....**** that crap. Up the security and live normally.


No, they were quite accurate, the Jedi just have this nasty habit of deflecting laser shots. I advise that you make sure you know what happens in the movies before criticizing them.

Like I said, from a distance to ensure that they miss. No Droid fired up close, when they actualy had a chance of hitting something.


No, we can't agree on that. It's not unreasonable that whoever was watching sensors didn't notice one lone fighter, out of dozens swarming around the ship, getting too close to the hanger bay when the shields were about to drop for a moment until it was too late to get the shields up in time. It's a matter of seconds we're talking about here.[/QUOTE]

once again, I don't want to get into this disscussion because we are going in circles. I say it's stupid, you say it's not.

Edit: My point is that If the aliens had any thought process at all it would go like this:

Guy #1 "So ok, we have shields that open/close when letting out fighters so that enemies dont get in."

Guy #2 "What if a ship tries to enter as one of our ships exits?"

Guy #1 "Oh, good point. Well in this event then....Our ships are expendable, so I guess that in just should rapidly close. Just in case"

In addition a matter of seconds TO A COMPUTER! AND that Anikin was a single lone fighter already in shooting range, so why did the guns react to the sensors yet the shields didnt? He is heading towards your direction, close the shields until he leaves the specified space or until he dies. It was a good five seconds and I know how this stuff works. I play a game called cartoon wars that has very similar elements.

[FlashRah]

My biggest problem with Phantom Menace is Phantom Menace.

[dps]

My biggest problem with the prequels in general is the way the Jedi are portrayed. First of all, they don't act like the guardians of truth and justice that Ben descirbed in the original--they're more like guardians of the status quo, be it good or bad. Second, they're basically incompetant. Now, if the intent was that the Jedi (as a group, not necessarily individual Jedi like Obi-Wan or Yoda) were supposed to have become corrupt and inefficient, and that's why they were unable to prevent the fall of the republic, that would be OK, but that's not the tack that's taken.

[Sillycomic]

Oh yes. I agree. The portrayal of Jedi in the prequels are horrible. They are about as effective and efficient as the Council itself.

Why are Jedi warriors going to Naboo in order to help trade disputes in the first place? Wouldn't someone traversed in tax code and Senate law be better fit to come out here and investigate?

When Amidala goes to Naboo, the Chancellor asks if she will wait for a committee to go investigate her claims. Why didn't the Chancerllor do that in the first place? The Chancellor and the Jedi both knew something was up? They could have sent this committee to investigate just as easily as sending Jedi.

Qui Gon and Obi Wan are sure helpful when it comes to saving a queen from tax desputes. It's a shame they don't give a crap when they set down on a planet that has SLAVES WITH ACTIVE BOMBS IN THEIR HEADS!! Qui Gon sends a message back checking midicloreans for a child but no word on the planet that condones slavery?

Yoda! Oh my god! Yoda! Everything Yoda does in this movie is wrong. He's calm, he's collected. Aside from inverting phrases everything he says is pretty normal and relaxed.

Where is the crazy Yoda? Where is the guy who rummaged around for food that wasn't his, who laughed when people said stuff like, "It's too big," or "I will try."

Where is the Yoda that we thought was one of the smartest people in the universe? This is just a green puppet that gets to say a few more things than the other random jedi. Seriously, the only difference between him and Conehead was that he got to say a few more lines than Conehead.

Why did they only send 2 Jedi when they realized that this Darth Maul was a Sith? They thought he was on Naboo helping the Trade Federation, so naturally they only send a Jedi and his padawan learner. Everyone else has more important things to do like sitting on their butts in committees.

Isn't Mace Windu like a Sith killing expert? Why isn't he coming along? Even if it's only a remote chance that the Sith is somewhere on Naboo wouldn't every single available Jedi pour down to this planet and investigate?

[Traab]

Well too be fair, luke was taught by a Yoda that had been in seclusion for the last however many years, and was at the end of his life span. Some odd behavior is to be expected. I mean think about it. Yoda had spent hundreds of years teaching young jedi, and generally surrounded by people, then to go into a two decade exile? (I honestly cant think how old luke was when he arrived at dagoba.) That had to be a shock to his system.

[pendell]

I haven't read the entire thread, but there are two things that stand out to me as utterly ridiculous:

1) Star Wars Point Defense. Observe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGrJnxdDbO8&feature=related). Modern point defense weapons such as Goalkeeper or Phalanx are capable of destroying supersonic missiles in flight thanks to a combination of radar and computer technology.

You're tellin' me that a civilization that can build sentient robots from junk parts can't build a PDS better than WWII-era optically-guided guns without computer assistance?

Heck, they had Better Computers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AA-Predictor-Nr1MarkIII-001.jpg) in WWII!

If this was at all realistic, starfighters should have no more chance against a capital ship than bugs do against a windshield. None of this slow-tracking horribly-missing WWII aa guns. Fighters fly too close ..BRRT... fighters are dust.

2) The gas trap.

If *I* were building that ship, I'd have the conference room configured as an airlock with emergency purge. Wait until the Jedi are in the room. Then press the button. The whole room voids to outer space in three seconds. Holding their breath will be the least of their problems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_exposure).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sillycomic]

I don't know.

I rather liked thinking of Yoda as a crazy and brilliant Jedi rather than as a smart and reserved Jedi who goes crazy when in exile.

So he has the power to take on Sideous and lift X wing fighters but he cracks when he has a little alone time?

And he has the power to contact any dead Jedi he wants so long as he meditates. That's far from exile. It's like saying you are exiled on a deserted island when you still have internet access.

[Traab]

I thought he could only contact those jedi who joined with the force, like obi wan did against vadar, and yoda did when he died. So he wouldnt have had many people to talk too if thats the case.

[The Glyphstone]

If this was at all realistic...


there's the key flaw in your reasoning.:smallcool: Star Wars isn't intended to be the least bit realistic. It is science fantasy, space opera. Finding astrophysics professors to crunch the numbers of gigatons of energy output for turbolasers is fun and impressive, but taking it too seriously misses the point that it was never intended to be a realistic and logical universe to begin with.

[Sillycomic]

I thought he could only contact those jedi who joined with the force, like obi wan did against vadar, and yoda did when he died. So he wouldnt have had many people to talk too if thats the case.

I don't think so, because at the end of Episode 3 Yoda said that he would teach Obi Wan to talk with Qui Gon, and we know he never joined the force when he died.

And at the end of Return of the Jedi we see Vader in outlined blue along with Yoda and Obi Wan. So wherever they are, he is too, and Luke can see them all just fine.

But either way, even if Yoda doesn't have access to ALL the dead jedi, he would have acess to some, and that's far from exile.

In fact, if Yoda has access to Qui Gon and so does Obi Wan, they could use him as a kind of messenger system, that way Yoda would have contact with the outside world and the goings on of things.

That might not be much... but it's FAR from considered being in exile.

[Forum Explorer]

I haven't read the entire thread, but there are two things that stand out to me as utterly ridiculous:

2) The gas trap.

If *I* were building that ship, I'd have the conference room configured as an airlock with emergency purge. Wait until the Jedi are in the room. Then press the button. The whole room voids to outer space in three seconds. Holding their breath will be the least of their problems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_exposure).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

They were in a normal conference room. They didn't know what to do with the Jedi until they called up Sidious and thus didn't have a trap really prepared. Now I will agree that the way they handled it was very poor, but so was everything the Trade Federation did.

[TheArsenal]

They were in a normal conference room. They didn't know what to do with the Jedi until they called up Sidious and thus didn't have a trap really prepared. Now I will agree that the way they handled it was very poor, but so was everything the Trade Federation did.

A normal room with a gassing machine... What? You don't have one?

[Philistine]

Or they just piped it in through the existing ventilation system. Gas is actually a pretty smart anti-boarding defense, especially if most of your own crew don't need to breathe because they're droids.

[TheArsenal]

Or they just piped it in through the existing ventilation system. Gas is actually a pretty smart anti-boarding defense, especially if most of your own crew don't need to breathe because they're droids.

Especialy later in the war, even Grevious needs no air. So screw air. Just have a few limited rooms of it.

I had a Dream though. It turns out that George has been replacedby an evil Doppledanger by aliens, because his movies 4-5, where giving confidence to a rebelion. So they replaced him with a lazy, cashgrabbing ******* and made him make movies about an empire destroying a rebelion, and those special editions. But the rebelion still exits so there is still hope for captured george.


there's the key flaw in your reasoning. Star Wars isn't intended to be the least bit realistic. It is science fantasy, space opera. Finding astrophysics professors to crunch the numbers of gigatons of energy output for turbolasers is fun and impressive, but taking it too seriously misses the point that it was never intended to be a realistic and logical universe to begin with.

There is Acceptance of fantasy and there are stupid plots.

I can accept lazers, robots, ships

But i cannot accept an open fricken door.

[The Big Dice]

There is Acceptance of fantasy and there are stupid plots.

I can accept lazers, robots, ships

But i cannot accept an open fricken door.
Accepting plot holes and allowing them to be patched by limited appeal third party sources is a common thing in Star Wars discussions. Personally, I think having to turn to an adaptation in a different media to explain why the majority of characters in a movie act like they were carved out of a tree, or possibly were rejected as being too obvious to be a Scooby Doo villain, do the things they do, is a cop out.

[pendell]

Or they just piped it in through the existing ventilation system. Gas is actually a pretty smart anti-boarding defense, especially if most of your own crew don't need to breathe because they're droids.

Well here's a question: They're in outer space. Why bother with gas at all? Just evacuate the air from the impacted sections. They probably have damage control mechanisms to do precisely that in the event of a fire or something. It has the same effect as gas with none of the storage problems.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

Timothy Zahn used exactly this in Spectre of the Past- shortly before Episode I came out.

Quite apart from lack of oxygen, if the gas is evacuated fast enough, decompression will inflict severe damage on the victim- though they generally wouldn't explode.

[LOTRfan]

Edit:
Watch the Scene again:Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_qaoJYmP5k&feature=related)

3:05-3:15.

There wherent even any ships moving out of the bay. He flies in easy peasy lemon squeezey. No Lazers surrounding it, nothing. Not even shields.

I'm a little late to this party, so sorry if this has been mentioned; I did just look at this video. Look at the lower right hand corner of the bay. At least one vulture droid is leaving the bay.

[LOTRfan]

Stop it. Stop with this "Didnt expect to have a war on thier hands". What If the Senate suddenly gathered up an army and attacked them? With professional equipment? They could have had a large scale battle on their hands especially since they left only one ship behind.And close the dam door. They could have possibly entered a full out war with the senate. They had no idea what was coming.

Oh and "Budget cuts" really? Thats all they could come up with? So im supposed to fear:

Driods that cannot Shoot
An ill equipped rebellion (That cannot even protect thier nuclear reactor)
Filled with idiots.

Okay, what is the name of this organization? The Trade Federation. Say it with me, the Trade Federation. We cannot just "stop it" because it is true.

These guys wanted to achieve a goal, not through war, but through intimidation. The best way to do this? Cheap, mass produced soldiers that can easily swarm any opposition a pathetic planetary militia can deliver.

They wanted to prove a point to the Republic, not fight with them. Which is why they were so scared when the Queen got away. She could tell the government about that atrocities the Trade Federation were commiting (for example, forcing the gungans out of their cities and placing the citizens of Theed into concentration camps!).

This is why they tried to use diplomacy and deception when facing the Republic (or, as the Nemoidian senator said in the senate scene, "You have no proof!"). They knew they wouldn't be able to win if the Republic intervened.

[Yora]

This one becomes doubly hilarious when you combine this with Episode III's "It's over, Anakin! I have the high ground!". :smallbiggrin:
This one actually makes sense: Obi-Wan is Anakins fencing teacher and as seen in the control room, they have extremely similar styles, often trying the same tricks at the same time. And Obi-Wan once was in a very similar situation to the one Anakin is in and he realizes that Anakin will probably try the very same maneuver that he used against Maul himself. And having first-hand experience of it, he knows exactly how Maul failed to defend against the attack.
He knows the maneuver and he knows it's comming, so unsuprisingly he counters it flawlessly.
When you rewatch the scene with this in mind, I think it's pretty obvious that this is going through Obi-Wans mind at that moment and that the writer intended it to be that way. It's a very good performance in that moment, but within the greater scene it's not easy to make that connection right then. And just a few moments earlier you had "Only the sith deal in absolutes", where the writers really failed hard. :smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

Only the sith deal in absolutes

Yes, my mind exploded when I thought about that line too hard. I wonder how things would have changed if anakin had caught that and started laughing his ass off.

[TheArsenal]

Okay, what is the name of this organization? The Trade Federation. Say it with me, the Trade Federation. We cannot just "stop it" because it is true.

Alright then. What are they trying to achieve?


I love the Droids, they should have won.

They can be mass produced from only metal/ Clone Troopers Require Organics AND Armour.

Need only Power, a bit of cooling time for joints/ Need Food, Showers, Living Quarters, resting time, air.

Should Shoot Well because if they are equiped with any form of targeting sensors their arms are in perfect sink with their minds, and they have no tiring, and are effected much less by Teriann, need energy/ Get tired, eyes in bulky helmets.

Produced on Multiple Planets, Hundreds an hour, in very rough and makeshift terrain/ Are Made on one planet, Have a very specific amount that can be produced, and made in fragile tanks and stuff.

The only thing I dont get is why dont they have backup in case that the ship dies. Just follow the last request. And "Clones Use Ingenuity" My ass.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

According to the EU, standard containment for a hangar bay is a mag-con shield. Keeps atmosphere and heat in, and energy out. Solid objects pass through. The domes on the Star Destroyer command towers are sensor domes.

I can comment more, but I was kept up late last night and I have a Batman movie to go see in a local theater. Some other time.

[LOTRfan]

I also think droids are much more efficient than cloned soldiers (and it bypasses the majority of ethical issues).

As for you're last request, that is probably a genuine example of an idiotic mistake. If it is any consolation to you, however, future generations of B1-series battle droids (in addition to the newer B2-series super battle droids) were given individual intelligence matrices of their own, so they could operate without the Droid Control Ship.

One of the side effects of that, however, was the fact that they became sentient, and eventually each developed its own distinct personality (like the sarcastic B1 on the Invisible Hand in Episode III).

[raitalin]

I think the fact that TPM is that it would've been so easy to make it better. It appealed to a lot of people, but it could've easily been a better film and appealed to even more.

Here's a better setup to the Trade Federation/Republic dispute.

The Trade Federation wants to enslave the Gungans. While Naboo is a member of the Republic the Gungans were recently discovered by a Trade Federation operation on the planet. Due to a loophole in Republic rules the Trade Federation is technically allowed to take them as slaves (prior claim before Gungan membership in the Republic), but their presence on a Republic world makes the claim tenuous.

Sidious has two goals in TPM, kill QGJ and rush the Trade Federation into a situation the generates ill will between the Core and the Outer Rim.

Sidious convinces them that they *need* to enslave the Gungans. Perhaps because there's something valuable under the sea. He convinces them to start the blockade.

Now the Trade Federation really isn't ready for a fight. Their ship has a fair amount of new tech and was built with cost in mind over functionality. But Sidious assures them that the Republic will back down.

Sidious knows that Queen Amidala is a willful young woman who simply will not stop her entreaties to the Senate and is quickly gaining support.

One particular Jedi is becoming a concern for Sidious. Qui Gon Jinn has refused numerous offers of council seats and seems to set his own agenda. He is more suspicious and is actively pursuing the source of the dark cloud over the Force, convinced that the Sith have returned.

So Sidious sends QGJ and his padawan to the Trade Federation battleship, and as SIdious convinces the Federation to kill the Jedi as a show of force. The Jedi escape. Now the Federation is stuck having taken aggressive action with nothing to show for it, so Sidious convinces them they might as well go for it all. After all, by the time the Republic raises a coalition fleet to come after them they'll be well entrenched and not worth the cost in lives to eject. So the Federation seizes the planet.

The Jedi beat the Federation goons to the Queen and flee, getting stuck on Tatooine as per usual. They then run into a 19 year old soundrel named Anakin Skywalker, but that's another story (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10568126#post10568126).

[TheArsenal]

One of the side effects of that, however, was the fact that they became sentient, and eventually each developed its own distinct personality (like the sarcastic B1 on the Invisible Hand in Episode III).

Is it a rule that all sentience makes comedy relief? I think that actually explains droids...




According to the EU, standard containment for a hangar bay is a mag-con shield. Keeps atmosphere and heat in, and energy out. Solid objects pass through. The domes on the Star Destroyer command towers are sensor domes.

Please tell me that it isnt true for the Fed ships, thats too much, even for me.

[LOTRfan]

Is it a rule that all sentience makes comedy relief? I think that actually explains droids...

I wouldn't say all droids are for comic relief, though.

IG-88. 'nuff said.

[Gnoman]

I haven't read the entire thread, but there are two things that stand out to me as utterly ridiculous:

1) Star Wars Point Defense. Observe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGrJnxdDbO8&feature=related). Modern point defense weapons such as Goalkeeper or Phalanx are capable of destroying supersonic missiles in flight thanks to a combination of radar and computer technology.

You're tellin' me that a civilization that can build sentient robots from junk parts can't build a PDS better than WWII-era optically-guided guns without computer assistance?

Heck, they had Better Computers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AA-Predictor-Nr1MarkIII-001.jpg) in WWII!

If this was at all realistic, starfighters should have no more chance against a capital ship than bugs do against a windshield. None of this slow-tracking horribly-missing WWII aa guns. Fighters fly too close ..BRRT... fighters are dust.



This comparison fails badly. Tho point-defense system inquestion is a 20mm rotary aurocannon. Light and easy to move around, it, however, doesn't have that much firepower. It works because missiles and modern aircraft are made from thin metal and are filled with flammable or explosive compounds, so it takes very little to destroy them. SW fighters can withstand hits that are more powerful than a destroyer or maybe even a cruiser's main battery. SW weapons are more powerful, but also rather bulky. It doesn't matter how good your computer aiming is. If the gun can't track fast enough to keep up with the target, it won't hit it. SW ships, even the fighters, need a large enough gun to destroy that tracking is going to be slow.

[pendell]

This comparison fails badly. Tho point-defense system inquestion is a 20mm rotary aurocannon. Light and easy to move around, it, however, doesn't have that much firepower. It works because missiles and modern aircraft are made from thin metal and are filled with flammable or explosive compounds, so it takes very little to destroy them. SW fighters can withstand hits that are more powerful than a destroyer or maybe even a cruiser's main battery. SW weapons are more powerful, but also rather bulky. It doesn't matter how good your computer aiming is. If the gun can't track fast enough to keep up with the target, it won't hit it. SW ships, even the fighters, need a large enough gun to destroy that tracking is going to be slow.

The starfighters in the SW movies are repaintings of WWII fighters. IIRC, the original trench run footage in Ep. IV was based on a WWII bomber movie. The weapons on the fighters are analogs of machine guns very similar to that self same autocannon. Tie fighters and just about every other starfighters seen in the movies proper explode into dust after one or two hits.

So I respectfully disagree. I believe it is completely within the SW universe's ability to build a point defense system similar to that I describe. There's no reason the Millenium Falcon's guns, seen in Ep. IV, couldn't be Robocannons as described.

The reason they didn't have it on the death star is because they did not consider a starfighter any more threat than a WWII fighter armed only with machine guns would be to a WWII battleship. You may scratch the paint and kill an unlucky soldier or two, but you'll do no serious damage. That's why the DS didn't have point defense; they were more concerned with defending against capital ships, so the DS's guns are more like the 16-inch guns on an Iowa. Like a battleship's main guns, they are completely ineffective against the smaller craft.

The reason they didn't have 'em on the Trade Federation ships is because .. I'm reading the source book Secrets of Naboo now .. that's what the fighters are for. It's the same reason modern aircraft carriers don't have much in the way of air defense -- that's what they've got escorts and aircraft for.

A mistake, seemingly, since it got them all killed.

One other thing that may be of interest to general readers of this thread.

Why didn't the TF use only destroyer droids?

The aforementioned source book (http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Naboo-Campaign-Pack-Roleplaying/dp/0786917946/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300566496&sr=8-1) says that a standard battle droid is built for 800 credits, while a destroyer droid costs 12000. For most jobs, a battle droid works as well as a destroyer droid. There's only two Jedi on Naboo in Ep. I, after all, but there are plenty of low-level NPCs. Having a core of destroyer droids backing up a whole lotta cheap droids give you more bodies to do the "grunt" work (such as guarding unarmed prisoners in a detention camp) while giving you the tools you need in case of Jedi. Which is why, according to the source book, there is 1 destroyer droid to every 500 battle droids.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

They wanted to prove a point to the Republic, not fight with them. Which is why they were so scared when the Queen got away. She could tell the government about that atrocities the Trade Federation were commiting (for example, forcing the gungans out of their cities and placing the citizens of Theed into concentration camps!).


Wait, wait, wait, wait ...

... If you want to prove a point to the republic, how does suppressing all knowledge of what you've done prove that point? If you want to prove a point, you WANT witnesses to tell about your occupation ... don't you?

Next question: The TF is having a dispute with the Republic over trade routes, right?

So Why blockade Naboo ?

Blockade Corellia or Kuat or some planet someone actually cares about. Naboo is small and unimportant. As mentioned, there's a good chance no one would even realized what happen if the TF prevented anyone from escaping. No one cares about Naboo. So what point are we proving, and why here?

And if you want to protest trade routes, why not do it on the senate floor instead of blockading a planet no one cares about , much less heard of?

Last question:
The TF is blockading Naboo.
What does Naboo have that anyone wants to trade for, anyway?

Ugly fashion styles? Chrome-plated spaceships ? Gungan prostitutes? What? What does Naboo offer the galaxy that can't be provided as well or better by any fifth-rate terrestrial planet?

So why are we here at all?

The only explanation I can think of is that the presence of midichlorians has an inverse effect on the brain cells in the entire GFFA.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Traab]

The starfighters in the SW movies are repaintings of WWII fighters. IIRC, the original trench run footage in Ep. IV was based on a WWII bomber movie. The weapons on the fighters are analogs of machine guns very similar to that self same autocannon. Tie fighters and just about every other starfighters seen in the movies proper explode into dust after one or two hits.

So I respectfully disagree. I believe it is completely within the SW universe's ability to build a point defense system similar to that I describe. There's no reason the Millenium Falcon's guns, seen in Ep. IV, couldn't be Robocannons as described.

The reason they didn't have it on the death star is because they did not consider a starfighter any more threat than a WWII fighter armed only with machine guns would be to a WWII battleship. You may scratch the paint and kill an unlucky soldier or two, but you'll do no serious damage. That's why the DS didn't have point defense; they were more concerned with defending against capital ships, so the DS's guns are more like the 16-inch guns on an Iowa. Like a battleship's main guns, they are completely ineffective against the smaller craft.

The reason they didn't have 'em on the Trade Federation ships is because .. I'm reading the source book Secrets of Naboo now .. that's what the fighters are for. It's the same reason modern aircraft carriers don't have much in the way of air defense -- that's what they've got escorts and aircraft for.

A mistake, seemingly, since it got them all killed.

One other thing that may be of interest to general readers of this thread.

Why didn't the TF use only destroyer droids?

The aforementioned source book (http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Naboo-Campaign-Pack-Roleplaying/dp/0786917946/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300566496&sr=8-1) says that a standard battle droid is built for 800 credits, while a destroyer droid costs 12000. For most jobs, a battle droid works as well as a destroyer droid. There's only two Jedi on Naboo in Ep. I, after all, but there are plenty of low-level NPCs. Having a core of destroyer droids backing up a whole lotta cheap droids give you more bodies to do the "grunt" work (such as guarding unarmed prisoners in a detention camp) while giving you the tools you need in case of Jedi. Which is why, according to the source book, there is 1 destroyer droid to every 500 battle droids.

Respectfully,

Brian P.


And the thing is, thats the sort of information... that would have answered a lot of questions movie watchers had. Are we expected to have read all the star wars novels and EU books out there just to follow along with whats going on during the prequels? I didnt read any books, so I was stuck wondering why they didnt use destroyer droids more often. The fact that you almost had to read a lot of the background info just to understand the whys hows and whats of the prequels is another point of failure for the trilogy. You shouldnt have to do research to be able to follow the storyline and understand why things are happening the way they are.

[TheArsenal]

\
The aforementioned source book (http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Naboo-Campaign-Pack-Roleplaying/dp/0786917946/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300566496&sr=8-1) says that a standard battle droid is built for 800 credits, while a destroyer droid costs 12000. For most jobs, a battle droid works as well as a destroyer droid. There's only two Jedi on Naboo in Ep. I, after all, but there are plenty of low-level NPCs. Having a core of destroyer droids backing up a whole lotta cheap droids give you more bodies to do the "grunt" work (such as guarding unarmed prisoners in a detention camp) while giving you the tools you need in case of Jedi. Which is why, according to the source book, there is 1 destroyer droid to every 500 battle droids.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

But they are nearly indestructible. It should have been reverse. Some grunts but LOTS of Powerful, mobile, force field enforced, flare resistant turrets that take out more than three times their standard amount.

Hell I have an awesome tactic to use against Jedi:

Send out eight destroyer Droids. Have Them try to surround a group of Trooper supported Jedi. The Troopers Shoot down up to four of them. The Droids Form a Square around the Troopers. Force field and shoot all in the middle. Troopers die quickly. Those that try to escape the square get shot. The Jedis can deflect all they want to try to deflect four+ sides. Force push would be a worry BUT the newly added extra support legs make them sturdier.
Jumping out leaves their backs open. And no Worries about The Surroundings: Shields!

[Gnoman]

Yes, the trench run was based on The Dam Busters. Not sure what you mean by "repainting" as neither design nor role of SW fighters bear any real resemblance to WWII tech. That does not mean that my point is irrelevant.


The millenium Falcon's guns did, in fact, destroy a TIE fighter with four hits. It is also much slower-tracking than a WWII bomber turret, and the guns are visibly larger. The TIE/Ln starfighter is also well known in the SW universe as being pathetically fragile. X-wings showed themeslves to be far more roubust even without shields (the TIEs Han and Luke hit were vaporized by the Falcon's laser turrets, while the shot-down X-wings only lost power from similar hits, the ships themselves were primarily intact.) After equalizing shields, Wedge took a hit of the same magnitude and survived. This, combined with calculations that show fighter guns to be extremely powerful based on the craters left in the DS surface, supports my point.

[LOTRfan]

Wait, wait, wait, wait ...

... If you want to prove a point to the republic, how does suppressing all knowledge of what you've done prove that point? If you want to prove a point, you WANT witnesses to tell about your occupation ... don't you?

Next question: The TF is having a dispute with the Republic over trade routes, right?

So Why blockade Naboo ?

Blockade Corellia or Kuat or some planet someone actually cares about. Naboo is small and unimportant. As mentioned, there's a good chance no one would even realized what happen if the TF prevented anyone from escaping. No one cares about Naboo. So what point are we proving, and why here?

And if you want to protest trade routes, why not do it on the senate floor instead of blockading a planet no one cares about , much less heard of?

Last question:
The TF is blockading Naboo.
What does Naboo have that anyone wants to trade for, anyway?

Ugly fashion styles? Chrome-plated spaceships ? Gungan prostitutes? What? What does Naboo offer the galaxy that can't be provided as well or better by any fifth-rate terrestrial planet?

So why are we here at all?

The only explanation I can think of is that the presence of midichlorians has an inverse effect on the brain cells in the entire GFFA.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Basic Summary: The Republic passed taxes on the mid-outer rim worlds in order to curb the rise of power of the Trade Federation, who had become powerful enough to warrant their own representative in the senate.

The Neimodians were angry, so they blockaded Naboo. Why is this important? Naboo is located on the Enarc Run, a hyperspace lane that connects the Expansion Region to the Mid Rim. By blockading Naboo, the idea was to cripple trade between the Core Worlds and the Mid- and Outer Rim Worlds until the Republic agreed to revoke the tax laws. How they planned on stopping ships mid-hyperspace is unknown, to me at least (perhaps they had interdiction technology?).

So, its not that Naboo is an important player in the economy of the galaxy, its just that they were the weakest planet that, if blockaded, would have a major effect in the galactic economy.


But they are nearly indestructible. It should have been reverse. Some grunts but LOTS of Powerful, mobile, force field enforced, flare resistant turrets that take out more than three times their standard amount.

But the Trade Federation doesn't think that way. Why waste so much money? They still want to make a large profit.

[Sillycomic]

Yes, I am getting a little tired with people having to explain why some things in the movie are the way they are. I don't care if there was a novel or a short story or a prequel or if something is nudged away in the back of wookipedia that makes what happened in the movie logical when all evidence points to the contrary...

This would be like taking out the whole "stolen plans" part of Episode 4. What if the audience was never told there is an obvious weakness to the defense of the Death Star? The rebels just flew around the Death Star for a bit, it blew up and everyone went home happy!

It's the same thing as NOT telling us there's an obvious weakness to the Cargo Ship in Episode 1. It's the same thing as NOT telling us what the Trade Federation was getting out of this whole deal with Sidious. It's the same as NOT telling us why Naboo is important and what sort of space supplies they desperately need.

These facts are important to a movie. They keep the movie whole, grounding it so that we as an audience can understand what's going on and relate to people and the reasons why they do things.

If half of the reasons and motivations for what happen in this movie are grounded in other media outlets, then why bother making a movie in the first place?


Although, I think the crutch of the biggest problem with Episode 1 is this inconstancy with what the bad guys are doing.

Sidious wants the Trade Federation to block trade with Naboo and then occupy the planet in order to get the Queen to sign a treaty making the occupation legal.

There's 2 obvious flaws with this.

1. Why does being forced to sign a treaty make it valid? I understand this is a galaxy far far away, but if you have a gun pointed at your head and someone makes you sign something, that is no more valid then if they forged your signature... unless the Senate is just that stupid and corrupt that they will accept treaties signed under duress.

2. It worked! At one point the Federation came down and occupied the city and captured the queen with her pitiful army and the bad guys had won! If they had made her sign the treaty instead of "processed" her, the Trade Federation would have won everything.

Ahh, so what's wrong with 2?

That's not what Sidious wanted to happen! He didn't want the girl to be captured. He needs her to escape so she can come to the Senate and make a vote of no confidence! That's his ultimate plan.

If the Trade Federation had gotten the Queen to sign the treaty, what would Palpatine have done then? His plans would have been ruined. And technically since he's a Senator for a planet that is now part of the Trade Federation, he's even out of a job!

Why would you purposely plan for the Trade Federation to do something that... if it succeeded, would completely destroy your political career?

[Traab]

Because the force told him it would work out properly. /rolls eyes.

[Sillycomic]

As Comic Book guy would say: WORST EXCUSE EVER!!!

[TheArsenal]

Basic Summary: The Republic passed taxes on the mid-outer rim worlds in order to curb the rise of power of the Trade Federation, who had become powerful enough to warrant their own representative in the senate.


The Problem is that its a very bad Idea:

On longterm.

The thing is to coqour a planet you have to have an army. Now the senate DEMANS you dismantle it. Now they can raise taxes again (With all thier eyes on you). So you have to convert ALL your ships in case this happens, which costs even more money. Now a war happens.



But the Trade Federation doesn't think that way. Why waste so much money? They still want to make a large profit.

Its not like its a war (2-3)....Oh. Just make less droids. One Droidika can kill Infinite clones if set up.


Edit:


800 credits, while a destroyer droid costs 12000


Hmm. 15 Battlers Vs A Super Turrent....Super turrent wins. In addition its very likely to survive to the next battle. Have a Small army of powerfull bots (With some Grunt support), would force the senate to rely on heavy artileraly-and budget cuts. They just win in nearly every way. They could be a very scary threat.

[pendell]

But the Trade Federation doesn't think that way. Why waste so much money? They still want to make a large profit.


Exactly. The TF is a trading organization and a security force has a lot of other jobs besides fighting. For that 95% of the time you're just standing guard or looking intimidating so the locals don't rip your cheating self limb from limb or directing traffic and not fighting, and for the additional 4.9% of the time you're not fighting Jedi, battle droids are the way to go. Destroyer droids won't do the job any better and they probably cost more to maintain, in addition to the original purchase cost.



Not sure what you mean by "repainting" as neither design nor role of SW fighters bear any real resemblance to WWII tech.


I mean that the SW fighters in the film ARE WWII fighters in every aspect except appearance. They dogfight with machine-gun analogues. Their projectiles are dumb once fired. Visual range dogfights when BVR engagement is standard in our world. Failure to use standoff weapons such as cruise missiles. And so on. This is a retelling of the battle of midway, not the battle of Bekaa Valley or Desert Storm.



And the thing is, thats the sort of information... that would have answered a lot of questions movie watchers had. Are we expected to have read all the star wars novels and EU books out there just to follow along with whats going on during the prequels?


I dunno about that. I didn't need a source book to reach that conclusion. I reached that conclusion the first time I saw the movie, by observing 1) That the Destroyers had onboard deflector shields and 2) The battle droids were stupid -- comically so -- and looked cheap. The rest follows naturally. The source book is just icing on the cake.

I'm not quite sure how George Lucas could have communicated that information differently than he did, given the time constraints of the movie. We already have a lot of boring senate scenes. Having some Nemoodian drone on about battle droid 101 is not the thing I needed in a movie that was already making my eyes bleed.

So it seems to me that specific information about the economics of battle droids sounds to me like precisely the sort of thing that should be offloaded to a source book or some such rather than take up precious screen time.

There's plenty of crimes against cinema in SW Ep. 1, but I don't think this is one of them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

I mean that the SW fighters in the film ARE WWII fighters in every aspect except appearance. They dogfight with machine-gun analogues. Their projectiles are dumb once fired. Visual range dogfights when BVR engagement is standard in our world. Failure to use standoff weapons such as cruise missiles. And so on. This is a retelling of the battle of midway, not the battle of Bekaa Valley or Desert Storm.


Thing is, even in the very first movie, you can see that this is wrong. The torpedoes they fire are clearly guided munitions, it's simply not a target where long-range fire is viable. In every EU deception, they follow modern tactics, not WWII ones.

[Traab]

I dunno about that. I didn't need a source book to reach that conclusion. I reached that conclusion the first time I saw the movie, by observing 1) That the Destroyers had onboard deflector shields and 2) The battle droids were stupid -- comically so -- and looked cheap. The rest follows naturally. The source book is just icing on the cake.

I'm not quite sure how George Lucas could have communicated that information differently than he did, given the time constraints of the movie. We already have a lot of boring senate scenes. Having some Nemoodian drone on about battle droid 101 is not the thing I needed in a movie that was already making my eyes bleed.

So it seems to me that specific information about the economics of battle droids sounds to me like precisely the sort of thing that should be offloaded to a source book or some such rather than take up precious screen time.

There's plenty of crimes against cinema in SW Ep. 1, but I don't think this is one of them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Honestly, the whole droid choice was just one of several points of confusion for those who dont read any of the books. The entire reason why naboo was blockaded is unclear. We know its a trade dispute, (which is a REALLY exciting excuse for a movie) But we dont know what they hope to gain from coercing the ruler of a planet to sign a treaty that could never be upheld in any intergalactic court. Why couldnt qui gon communicate with the jedi temple for assistance instead of having a 9 year old go pod racing for him? The jedi order had to know about their mission, otherwise qui gon and obi wan never would have been sent. Send out another space ship to pick them up and run them back to corascant.

[Gnoman]

Obvious from the movie. They didn't want to alert the Trade Federation to where they washed up and invite attack.

[Sillycomic]

Also, I have a question...

Naboo is part of the Empire (or whatever it's called) Apparently it's important for trade.

When the ship that the queen took to run the blockade left Naboo, it was hopefully headed towards Coruscant to talk with the Senate.

So... how did it end up on Tatooine?

Isn't Tatooine on the outer rim? Isn't it a planet that's beyond the touch of the Empire?

So, wouldn't going from Naboo (part of the empire) to Coruscant (the head of the Empire) be in like the exact opposite direction of Tattoine?

I understand the ship was damaged and needed some help, but the closest planet was one further away from where they were going and has nothing to do with the Empire at all?

Plus, in Episode 2 it's been established that if you are on Tattoine you have communications with Coruscant (Anakin and Amidala spoke with Yoda right before they tried to rescue Obi Wan)

So, why didn't they do that in Episode 1?

The radio works (or whatever they call communications) because they got the distress signal from Naboo telling the princess to come back. Why didn't they just contact the Senate and the Jedi Council and tell people what's going on right then and there?


Obvious from the movie. They didn't want to alert the Trade Federation to where they washed up and invite attack.

That is obvious from the movie? Hmm, I didn't really see that particular plot point anywhere... so I don't know how obvious it is.

Oh, wait. I do recall the Trade Federation blocking communications on Naboo to stop the Queen from contacting the Council. To me that says that the Trade Federation is pretty scared of what might happen if the Queen got an open line to Coruscant.

And again, this falls under the lines of the bad guys being inconsistant. Sidious wants the Council to know what's going on at Naboo! Blocking all communication from the planets stops this! It's counterproductive to his ultimate plans!!!

[Gnoman]

Qui-Gon ordered strict radio silence before leaving the ship. Later, he berated them for ignoring that order.

[Tavar]

Why does Sidious want them to know?

[Sillycomic]

A character telling another character to do something doesn't mean it's obvious why that needs to be done.

But, it does seem to fit into the theme of Episode 1... doing stuff and then not explaining why it worked, or why you're doing it, or what happened when you did it.



Why does Sidious want them to know?

How does Sidious' plan work if no one knows what's going on?

[0Megabyte]

Why is everyone using so much information not in the movie to try to defend facts in the movie?

They aren't in the movie. They don't count anymore than saying "oh, they explained it in the novel" saves any other awful movie. If the movie doesn't make sense on its own, and so much of this movie doesn't, then it fails as a movie.

Trade federation warships are simply reconfigured trade ships? Not in the movie? The reason Naboo specifically is being targetted? Not in the movie? Why these people are listening to the creepy shadowy figure in the first place? Not in the movie. A whole lot of other facts are not in the movie.

If I presented a film I made to my film class, and my explanation for a plot-hole or question was "oh, that was in the short story I wrote which this is based on. That explains it all! Read that if you want to know." I'd be pilloried by my teachers, and possibly tarred and feathered by my fellow students.

It just doesn't work, and it doesn't help. I've enjoyed a couple of Star Wars novels, only a couple, but even so, none of it has any effect on what's in the film. If it isn't actually in the film, it can't really be used to defend the film itself. It can be used in other ways, and I'm not saying it's utterly worthless, but the film isn't helped by that info. The expanded universe may make more sense, but that's the expanded universe, not the movie "Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace."

[Gray Mage]

Also, I have a question...

Naboo is part of the Empire (or whatever it's called) Apparently it's important for trade.

When the ship that the queen took to run the blockade left Naboo, it was hopefully headed towards Coruscant to talk with the Senate.

So... how did it end up on Tatooine?

Isn't Tatooine on the outer rim? Isn't it a planet that's beyond the touch of the Empire?

Their ship was damaged and they went to the closest planet that could have the part and wasn't under the TF, if I'm not mistaken.

[LOTRfan]

Alright, two things:

Concerning Droidekas: It seems that people are overestimating the capabilities of the Droideka. I'll be first to admit that Droidekas are excellent combat droids that far exceed the limitations of the B1-series, and later improvements of the design only further emphasized this. But the droidekas used during the Battle of Naboo (specifically, the P-series destroyer droid) were one-trick ponies; They had no anti-aircraft capabilities, they couldn't control machinery, and most importantly: in order to move from position to position on a battlefield, it must roll into a ball, turning off their shields and crippling their main advantage!

Droidekas make excellent guards and anti-personnel turrets, but that is it. Some variants (W-series destroyer, I am looking at you :smallannoyed:) didn't even have a shield! With those that did, if you can push them over (which is easy, as the shield only protects against energy weapons) their shields short-circuit, leaving them vulnerable. Also, one hilarious side note: their arms are so spread apart, if you walk up close in front of them, you enter what effectively is a blindspot, where they cannot fire at you.

Concerning Darth Sidious Wanting the Republic to Know: Darth Sidious wanted them to know, as did the Nemoidians. That way, Darth Sidious reveals how weak the Republic has become under the leadership of Chancellor Valorum, and the Nemoidians can attempt to get the Republic to repeal the tax laws. This is why the Nemoidians did not deny it in the Republic Senate. What the Trade Federation was trying to hide, however, was the atrocities committed during the occupation. Many political leaders were put to death, the Gungans were chased out of their homes, and the majority of the human population was placed in droid-controlled concentration camps. That is why they were so terrified when the Queen escaped (that, in addition to the whole legality issue of the occupation to begin with..).

[LOTRfan]

Why is everyone using so much information not in the movie to try to defend facts in the movie?

They aren't in the movie. They don't count anymore than saying "oh, they explained it in the novel" saves any other awful movie. If the movie doesn't make sense on its own, and so much of this movie doesn't, then it fails as a movie.

I'm not trying to defend the movie. The movie sucked, and its my least favorite. I'm not attempting to defend the movie. I merely answer the questions the movie failed spectacularly at answering. :smallsmile:

[Traab]

Qui-Gon ordered strict radio silence before leaving the ship. Later, he berated them for ignoring that order.

He meant they couldnt communicate with bibble back on naboo. I dont know how the hell the federation could hope to intercept a communication from a ship they dont know the location of, to the jedi temple. I could see them being able to moniter communication attempts with the senate since they have allies there, or with naboo, since they currently are running the place, but between tattoine and the jedi temple?

[Gnoman]

Why wouldn't they? They know that Jedi helped the queen escape, and that the ships was damaged. Why wouldn't they expect the Jedi to call for reinforcements?

[TheArsenal]

Alright, two things:

Concerning Droidekas: It seems that people are overestimating the capabilities of the Droideka. I'll be first to admit that Droidekas are excellent combat droids that far exceed the limitations of the B1-series, and later improvements of the design only further emphasized this.

True. BUT in a basic: Kill em thing, instead of 15000 grunts. Make 1000 Droidikas. But this is just a rule of thumb.


But the droidekas used during the Battle of Naboo (specifically, the P-series destroyer droid) were one-trick ponies; They had no anti-aircraft capabilities,

Why? Their arms cannot rotate up?


they couldn't control machinery,

Use Grunts.


and most importantly: in order to move from position to position on a battlefield, it must roll into a ball, turning off their shields and crippling their main advantage!

Moving FAST. We clearly can see that they can march. So in fact, they can roll much faster Or Just securely march.


Droidekas make excellent guards and anti-personnel turrets, but that is it. Some variants (W-series destroyer, I am looking at you :smallannoyed:) didn't even have a shield!

Thats because in every scene they where in Episode 1 they just killed everything. George ran into a wall.


With those that did, if you can push them over (which is easy, as the shield only protects against energy weapons) their shields short-circuit, leaving them vulnerable.

Which is why I mentioned extra stability in the legs. Or Just include the Possibility of just sitting down for extra stability.



Also, one hilarious side note: their arms are so spread apart, if you walk up close in front of them, you enter what effectively is a blindspot, where they cannot fire at you.

Try doing that yourself. Pretend you cannot move your arms inward. Solution? Just move your body a bit side to side, no need for inward motion.


[B]This is why the Nemoidians did not deny it in the Republic Senate. What the Trade Federation was trying to hide, however, was the atrocities committed during the occupation. Many political leaders were put to death, the Gungans were chased out of their homes, and the majority of the human population was placed in droid-controlled concentration camps. That is why they were so terrified when the Queen escaped (that, in addition to the whole legality issue of the occupation to begin with..).

Why do they do it? Just Place them in tent like camps. And in addition they did it in a matter of hours? Thele have to leave the planet eventually, so it will get out. They needed no supplies from them. And they left all security guards in the castle because? They should have been sent first.

[LOTRfan]

True. BUT in a basic: Kill em thing, instead of 15000 grunts. Make 1000 Droidikas. But this is just a rule of thumb.

I can see you're point if they are used as shock troops and guards. But otherwise? Their costs, maintenance, and flaws just make it not worth it, even for the increased death:kill ratio.


Why? Their arms cannot rotate up?

They can, but not in arcs large enough to competently aim at flying targets.


Use Grunts.

I have no further argument in this case, as this is a viable option.


Moving FAST. We clearly can see that they can march. So in fact, they can roll much faster Or Just securely march.

The ability to travel quickly from place to place on a battlefield is extremely important. Their "march" is much slower than the average human.


Thats because in every scene they where in Episode 1 they just killed everything. George ran into a wall.

I am slightly confused by what you mean. Could you clarify, sorry? :smallsmile:


Which is why I mentioned extra stability in the legs. Or Just include the Possibility of just sitting down for extra stability.

If you want to start messing around with the basic design, sure, but at that point they aren't standard Droidekas, are they?


Try doing that yourself. Pretend you cannot move your arms inward. Solution? Just move your body a bit side to side, no need for inward motion.

This line of reasoning only works when you assume the opponent isn't smart enough to move as the droid moves (which itself takes time, as the droid can't merely move its upper body; the entire droid has to turn).


Why do they do it? Just Place them in tent like camps. And in addition they did it in a matter of hours? Thele have to leave the planet eventually, so it will get out. They needed no supplies from them. And they left all security guards in the castle because? They should have been sent first.

Why did they do it? There were a bunch of minor rebellions from the populace, so perhaps they put them in camps to limit the chances of future rebellions?

Honestly, I think the writers just made them do it to appear much more "evil" in the eyes of the viewer.

[Sillycomic]

What the Trade Federation was trying to hide, however, was the atrocities committed during the occupation. Many political leaders were put to death, the Gungans were chased out of their homes, and the majority of the human population was placed in droid-controlled concentration camps.

I like this and this makes a lot of sense about what was going on in the movie and why it was so important for the Queen to get help.

1 problem with this though.

It's never shown in the movie.

We never see any political leaders put to death. We never see gungans chased out of their homes. We never see any droid concentration camps.

(although, I do understand... I mean 14 minutes of pod racing was just too important to cut from the movie to show any of this irrelevant stuff)

When the queen is captured there is mention of a Camp... Camp 14 I think. But nothing else. Certainly not enough for me to think random civilians are being captured and executed.

In fact, wasn't the small army of Naboo fighters being kept in the hangar with all of their ships? Oos! Well, we'll just pretend one of the droid camps was being cleaned that day and the fighters had to stay right next to all their ships until that was all done.

I will give you that Queen Amidala talks about this stuff when she is in the Senate, but... I honestly thought they were all dying because Naboo wasn't getting any of the precious space supplies. I didn't know it had to do with concentration camps that we never see.

She said her people were dying, yet I never saw 1 person of Naboo killed before the big final battle. And nothing tells me that the queen saw any of her people dying either.

[LOTRfan]

I like this and this makes a lot of sense about what was going on in the movie and why it was so important for the Queen to get help.

1 problem with this though.

It's never shown in the movie.

We never see any political leaders put to death. We never see gungans chased out of their homes. We never see any droid concentration camps.

(although, I do understand... I mean 14 minutes of pod racing was just too important to cut from the movie to show any of this irrelevant stuff)

When the queen is captured there is mention of a Camp... Camp 14 I think. But nothing else. Certainly not enough for me to think random civilians are being captured and executed.

In fact, wasn't the small army of Naboo fighters being kept in the hangar with all of their ships? Oos! Well, we'll just pretend one of the droid camps was being cleaned that day and the fighters had to stay right next to all their ships until that was all done.

I will give you that Queen Amidala talks about this stuff when she is in the Senate, but... I honestly thought they were all dying because Naboo wasn't getting any of the precious space supplies. I didn't know it had to do with concentration camps that we never see.

She said her people were dying, yet I never saw 1 person of Naboo killed before the big final battle. And nothing tells me that the queen saw any of her people dying either.

Oh, I agree it is ridiculous. As mentioned in the post above you, I think the writers added it in last minute. It's expanded upon in ... Incredible Cross Sections, I think? I'll have to look it up to be sure...

Anyway, I don't defend the movie (it sucked), I merely try to make it so that it can actually make some sense. :smallsmile:

EDIT: The Gungan incident is mentioned in the movie, though. That's why their hiding in the Sacred Place, correct?

[Sillycomic]

It's been a while since I saw the movie (sober anyway)

I do remember the Gungans were hiding in their sacred place. Although, I wasn't sure if they did this just as a precaution or if they did this because robots began killing them.

Although... these things are water breathers. Why is their sacred place on land? Shouldn't it be deeper in the water? Naboo's planet core is made of mostly water... how is there not some awesome cave miles and miles below the surface that is more safe than in a swamp in the forest?

Either way, it matches the rest of the movie in that it doesn't really make any sense.


Actually, it's kinda funny that the expanded universe of Star Wars has to explain the plot of the movie. It means, if you do find everything from the novels and comics and Wookipedia you finally understand the plot of Phantom Menace.

That means the plot itself isn't wrong or stupid... just that the movie makers were wrong and stupid because they didn't explain what was actually going on in a way that made any sense to the average movie-goer.

[Bobikus]

There was never and will never be a Star Wars 1, they made 4-6 then stopped. :smallwink:


/denial :smallfrown:

[Eldariel]

There was never and will never be a Star Wars 1, they made 4-6 then stopped. :smallwink:


/denial :smallfrown:

Denial? Truth.

[JonestheSpy]

What are you talking about? Of course there was a Star Wars 1. It was called "Star Wars". Then came Empire, then the third movie, the sadly inferior finale "Return of the Jedi".

Yes, it is too bad Lucas never did anything worthwhile afterwards, unless you count his involvement with "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

[TheArsenal]

I can see you're point if they are used as shock troops and guards. But otherwise? Their costs, maintenance, and flaws just make it not worth it, even for the increased death:kill ratio.

The Thing is That Maintence, and flaws are so much more fixable than having to make another 15000 robots. You save on metal, and parts. In addition the flaws are just kinda miniscule in comparison to the benefits. Below Im mostly going to be doing suggestions on the tweeks to make them perfect.


They can, but not in arcs large enough to competently aim at flying targets.

Hmm, Just add an eye on the top of the head, and make them rotate better.


I have no further argument in this case, as this is a viable option.

I meant that for the war masses use Droidikas. For Other stuff use Droids.


The ability to travel quickly from place to place on a battlefield is extremely important. Their "march" is much slower than the average human.

Yeah, they have a faster than human rolling form for that. Its harder to hit, and faster. In addition, use the Slow inpenetrable march attack. Have the shields protect the grunts behind them.

Just imagin Episode 2-3 with ever Clone Vs Droid fight. Now imagin that the Hit droids dont die, and the cloners die faster.


I am slightly confused by what you mean. Could you clarify, sorry? :smallsmile:

Now im not talking from an in cannon standpoint. I know it could be budget cuts or so. Im Talking about that the Driodikas effectively where just very tense. Every time they appeared, the characters lost. He realized that if he included them again, it would be hard for them to loose. So he just said: **** it. No more shields. I know you can say they cost less. But if the EU never said that they cost less, it wouldn't have made a difference.




If you want to start messing around with the basic design, sure, but at that point they aren't standard Droidekas, are they?

Yeah. Its just that they are SO good. Its not like clones where a single design is forever. I cant blame them for no support legs for episode 1- but especial later, if they sat down to think (Pu dum Pish) about how could they make these more powerfull, this would be the first thing I would do.


This line of reasoning only works when you assume the opponent isn't smart enough to move as the droid moves (which itself takes time, as the droid can't merely move its upper body; the entire droid has to turn).

So the can rotate their arms up, but not inward, or move the upper half? Ugh, stupid. K then. You win. I just mod the arms a bit.


Why did they do it? There were a bunch of minor rebellions from the populace, so perhaps they put them in camps to limit the chances of future rebellions?

Honestly, I think the writers just made them do it to appear much more "evil" in the eyes of the viewer.

Yeah.

I love arguing with you. Its just so much fun, finding how AWESOME the droids are.


Edit:

Whoever Mentioned that Star wars 1 was a comedy: Your a genuis:

SPACE BALLS 1/2: The Quest For More Money:

The Settings would have a bunch of purposefully distracting crap. Anikin would suck, and he would constantly show product placement.

Anaduma: Would be a you go girl character, that had a sassy black chick following her around to say that

No Jar Jar.

Ect. Your Ideas?

[pendell]

It's been a while since I saw the movie (sober anyway)

I do remember the Gungans were hiding in their sacred place. Although, I wasn't sure if they did this just as a precaution or if they did this because robots began killing them.



Secrets of Naboo reference: The Gungan sacred sites are on land, on the coast.

The Gungans lived on the coast and underwater until humans landed on the planet and named it Naboo. There was a war. After the war the Gungans abandoned the land and lived solely underwater. However, once a year they come back to their sacred sites, which were their original cities on land. Evidently this is part of some religious ritual which continues even though their cities are abandoned.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sillycomic]

Ahh, yes. Just like everything else in the movie... there's a logical reason for what happened. In fact it's so logical and reasonable the movie doesn't even both telling you about it.

Also knowing this would have made the scene where the Queen spoke with the Gungans much more dramatic. Amidala saying there is tension between their people is a lot different than Amidala's people at one time invading and forcing the Gungan's deep into the waters in order to live.

Now she's asking them for help? No wonder she's on her knees begging.

Why is the movie so counter-productive with itself? This kind of political history is useful knowledge that adds tension and drama to a scene! Why strip that away from us?

[pendell]

Why is the movie so counter-productive with itself? This kind of political history is useful knowledge that adds tension and drama to a scene! Why strip that away from us?

Because clearly Jar-jar Binks needed more screen time :)

Actually, that's one thing that made sense about the movies that I appreciated.

Congratulations, Jar-Jar Binks ! We need someone to lead a hopeless battle against an invincible robot army to buy time! (You're such a klutz your sure to waste the time of the machines! You've already wasted too much of mine! And it's not like we want to risk the life of a real officer on this errand! And if we're really lucky, you'll get killed!)


Oh .. you lived through it?

Then congratulations, Jar-Jar Binks! You are now the new senator from Naboo! (We'll pack you off to Coruscant where we will NEVER EVER have to see you again! It's even better than banishment because we're sending you halfway across the galaxy, instead of just out of the swamp!)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Wardog]

Last question:
The TF is blockading Naboo.
What does Naboo have that anyone wants to trade for, anyway?

Ugly fashion styles? Chrome-plated spaceships ? Gungan prostitutes? What? What does Naboo offer the galaxy that can't be provided as well or better by any fifth-rate terrestrial planet?



Really big fish?

You could probably feed a whole city with one of them...

Or put one in your death trap, if you're a particularly wealthy crime lord and think a rancor pit is not impressive enough.

[The Glyphstone]

Really big fish?

You could probably feed a whole city with one of them...

Or put one in your death trap, if you're a particularly wealthy crime lord and think a rancor pit is not impressive enough.

Only if you strap laser beams blaster cannons to their foreheads first.

[TheThan]

Really big fish?

You could probably feed a whole city with one of them...

Or put one in your death trap, if you're a particularly wealthy crime lord and think a rancor pit is not impressive enough.

I actually made a star wars character that was a gungan big game fisherman. He never saw play time though :smallannoyed: