DnD [3.5] Lich Question

[olejars]

Hello, longtime lurker, first time poster.

Tried searching for this, but with no success. I've been trying to find out if after a lich's phylactory is destroyed, if a new one can be created? Or is their soul pretty much gone with the phylactory?

[only1doug]

Hello, longtime lurker, first time poster.

Tried searching for this, but with no success. I've been trying to find out if after a lich's phylactory is destroyed, if a new one can be created? Or is their soul pretty much gone with the phylactory?

Yes, they can create a new one, providing they havent also been killed while the Phylactory is destroyed.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes, they can create a new one, providing they havent also been killed while the Phylactory is destroyed.

Libris Mortis would disagree with you.

[olejars]

Libris Mortis would disagree with you.

I do not own that particular supplement, what does it say?

[KillianHawkeye]

That a lich can only make 1 phylactery.

[Grizzy]

...but without a phylactery, she cannot recover if her body is subsequently destroyed. She may create a new phylactery to replace a lost one if she has the time and resources to do so.

That's from Wizards' Savage Progressions entry on liches (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a), so I don't know how canon it is for everybody, though.

From a fluff perspective, I'd rule that the evil, evil ritual binding your soul to the phylactery binds it there for good, and you only get one.

[Amnestic]

Where does your soul go if/when your phylactery is destroyed in your view?

[Grizzy]

Where does your soul go if/when your phylactery is destroyed in your view?

I did not think of that. Anybody know what the fluff says in Libris Mortis? Away from my books at the moment.

[Lyndworm]

That's from Wizards' Savage Progressions entry on liches (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a), so I don't know how canon it is for everybody, though.

From a fluff perspective, I'd rule that the evil, evil ritual binding your soul to the phylactery binds it there for good, and you only get one.

Libris Mortis was printed afterwards, and is 3.5 as opposed to 3.0. As much as I love Savage Species (and I do, very much), RAW states that Liches can make only one phylactery. The implication is that destroying the phylactery destroys the lich's soul as well, so that another phylactery cannot be created.

[Amnestic]

I did not think of that. Anybody know what the fluff says in Libris Mortis? Away from my books at the moment.

"If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed."

I would guess that implies the soul is annihilated with the phylactery.

[KillianHawkeye]

"If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed."

I would guess that implies the soul is annihilated with the phylactery.

Either that, or it is lost to the afterlife. An undead creature can usually be resurrected to their living form after their undead form is destroyed.

Regardless, there's no reason the soul would return to the lich when the phylactery is destroyed, so he no longer has it to put into a new phylactery.

[Amnestic]

Though that does mean he could be resurrected into his living form, become a Lich again and then make a new phylactery :smalltongue:

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, but who's gonna ressurect him? Lich's don't have a lot of allies. He certainly wouldn't accept it coming from the party that just destroyed him.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Though that does mean he could be resurrected into his living form, become a Lich again and then make a new phylactery :smalltongue:This is exactly the plot (only using a Demilich) I used for my recent high end DnD game, the Demilich had had to be returned to life (using a Miracle no less) and then start on the process of Lichdom all over again. Made for an interesting villain as he could scale rather nicely with the party without it feeling like he was power leveling (it helps that in my game world going Epic required a Divine Benediction, something that the Demilich had to regain because his original benefactor was now dead).

[Amnestic]

Yeah, but who's gonna ressurect him? Lich's don't have a lot of allies. He certainly wouldn't accept it coming from the party that just destroyed him.

If it's an NPC, you can contrive up a reason easily ("Evil God wanted the Lich to perform a service for him, instructed his Clerics to resurrect the Lich in exchange for the errand"), if it's a PC, well, it's up to the PCs to make allies, ain't it? :smalltongue:

The services of a powerful spellcaster aren't exactly something to be wagging your finger at, and having a Lich in your debt will probably pay off.

[only1doug]

No mention is made of soul in the Libris mortis entry, it just says "life force".

No bringing back your Lich (by any means whatsoever) Libris mortis clearly states "If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed."

[Evil DM Mark3]

No mention is made of soul in the Libris mortis entry, it just says "life force".

No bringing back your Lich (by any means whatsoever) Libris mortis clearly states "If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed."Ah but what if the character is restored to life from their undead state? IE not slain at any point?

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, the lich is destroyed. But any destroyed undead can be brought back to life with ressurection. At that point, he is no longer a lich.

[only1doug]

Yeah, the lich is destroyed. But any destroyed undead can be brought back to life with ressurection. At that point, he is no longer a lich.

Specific Trumps general.

Any undead can be brought back to life with ressurection. General.
If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed. Specific.

But Lich rules are the ultimate in GM call, any of the specific details should (must) be decided by the GM because it is how the GM of each specific game sees them that is most important.

If I ever get the chance to use it I'm going to houserule that a Lich can create a new phylactory, but only after the deaths of all of those within 30' of the destruction of his previous phylactory.

[faceroll]

Where does your soul go if/when your phylactery is destroyed in your view?

Either the Void, where there is only nothing, or maybe a lower plane, depending on lich's alignment.

[KillianHawkeye]

Specific Trumps general.

Any undead can be brought back to life with ressurection. General.
If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed. Specific.

My point is that I don't think specific vs general even applies to this. The "forever destroyed" clause is obviously a direct exception to the "lich comes back in 1d10 days" general rule, not the "what happens after an undead is destroyed" rule.

The thing you're missing is the game definition of the word "destroyed." Being destroyed DOES NOT prevent ressurection. Look:

when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.

You can resurrect someone... who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

[archon_huskie]

Here's an idea. If the Lich's phlantry-thingie is destroyed, the Lich would have to first retrieve his soul from whereever it went before making a new one.

[KillianHawkeye]

That sounds like a fine house rule to me.