VoP Alternatives for Unarmed Lizardfolk? [3.5] (PEACH?)

[Ursus the Grim]

Right. So, I'm playing a Lizardfolk Unarmed Swordsage. I plan on picking up Fist of the Forest and Initiate of Draconic Mysteries, with maybe a dip in Scaled Horror for improved grab.

Feat-wise, I am naturally going to get Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike. My original plan was to be a jerk and go for Vow of Poverty. Unfortunately, it is very difficult for a Lizardfolk to be Lawful Good and still somehow get Scaled Horror. Plus, he can't really afford the feats to be throwing around when there are a few prestige classes that require them.

I glanced at Tattooed Monk, but opted not to go that route, either. So are there any other suggestions for unarmed, unarmored characters in terms of feat or class choice? Due to the ECL thing, my maneuvers aren't exactly amazing, and its two more levels before I can buyoff the LA.

Yes, I've tried googling it, but all I get is more rants and debate over VoP and whether or not it is OP'ed.

Vhirek Ornmolik
{table=head]
ECL|
Level Taken|
Skills Purchased|
Notes

1|
Lizardfolk 1|
Jump 4, Swim 4|Great Fortitude

2|
Lizardfolk 2|
Jump 1, Swim 1|

3|
Lizardfolk 3|
Jump 1, Swim 1|

4|
Swordsage 1|
Hide 2, Move Silently 3, Swim 1|Power Attack

5|
Swordsage 2|
Hide 3, Jump 1, Move Silently 2|

6|
Swordsage 3|
Jump, Swim 1|

7|
Swordsage 4|
Handle Animal 1, Tumble 4|Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed)

8|
Swordsage 5|
Handle Animal 3|

9|
Scaled Horror 1|
Survival 4|For improved grab and Survival as class skill.

10|
Fist of the Forest 3|
Concentration 2|Superior Unarmed Strike

11|
Fist of the Forest 2|
Concentration 2|

13|
Fist of the Forest 3|
Concentration 2|

14|
Swordsage 6|
Knowledge (Religion) 1, Tumble 4|Alertness

15|
Swordsage 7|
Knowledge (Religion) 3|

16|
Swordsage 8|
Knowledge (Arcana) 3|

17|
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 1|?|?[/table]

[The Cat Goddess]

Shou Disciple will give you more damage and better hit points per level... it kinda packs 8 levels of monk into 5 levels.

Tashlatora (Feat) lets you improve your unarmed damage while taking a Psi class.

Kensai gives you magic fists.

If you're not Lawful (since you didn't have to be for Unarmed SwordSage), you might take a dip in Battle Dancer for Cha-to-AC.

If you are Lawful, there's nothing stopping you from getting two levels of Monk and getting the Kung Fu Genius feat to have Int-to-AC.

In the case of Battle Dancer & Monk, you should have little trouble getting the GM to approve the class levels stacking with Unarmed SwordSage for damage purposes.

[Hyfigh]

VoP is a trap anyways unless you know that your campaign won't follow WBL...

This said, you're proposed build idea seems fairly solid.

[Salanmander]

What aspect of VoP are you looking for an alternative to? A way to be effective without items? A way to be effective unarmed by whatever means necessary? Give us something to go on, and we can probably point you in the right direction.

Edit: upon closer reading of the OP it looks like "a way to be effective unarmed by whatever means necessary". So nevermind I guess.

[Darth Stabber]

Given the crushing inefficiency of VoP I would give it to a player for free if they asked nicely.

There have been times I have taken vow of poverty just to avoid having the extra book keeping. That is what people always miss: the metagame advantage. There is no mechanical advantage, and it's not a roleplay advantage (other than not being easily seduced with bribery), the advantage is purely one of reduced work. I don't have to sit down and figure out what I am going to buy, what combinations of items will net the most efficiencies with my build. I don't have to hope the GM will drop said Items. I know exactly what I'm getting, and thieves can't steal it. Also I will consider it if there is a Kender in the party, and by that I mean I will either take VoP or not play. Yes I have a deepseated hatred of Kender, but when your character dies because one of your party member "Found" your spell component pouch, you tend to get that way. Kender is for causing your party members grief and you are a bad person for taking that race. There I said it, and I stand by it.

[Amechra]

Psychic Meditation, from of the Wizard's site, and the Improved version, can net you goodies.

Like twice your level in temporary hit points, +3 NA, +2 to all physical or mental stats...

For an hour.

And taking 7 levels of the PrC (the Meditant) results in all the above being twice your level in temporary hit points + FH 2, +9 NA, +6 to all physical or mental stats...

It is very nice, and it doesn't prohibit item use at all.

[Ursus the Grim]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I wish they'd fix table coding so that mess doesn't look like a mess.

I don't like Kensei as much. Between ECL and other prestige classes I'm gunning for, the weapons wouldn't really be up to snuff. Though I like Kensei in general, he wouldn't be fit for it. I could just nab a necklace of natural weapons or an amulet of mighty fists. More expensive, but I wouldn't be paying precious xp (Again, I have an ECL to contend with) for magic weapons that would likely be underpowered at that point.

I really liked Shou Disciple, but it gave me a hit to skill points, which I had some trouble finagling as it were.

As for VoP, I am looking for other ways to be effective without weapons and preferably without manufactured armor. This means primarily unarmed damage, but also buffs that are contingent on lack of armor or such, ie, fast movement.

VoP is out of the question. First, I cannot stretch to Lawful Good. He's in play at this point, though early, and I roleplay too much to just spontaneously switch. Also, it requires a prerequisite feat, which I am a level behind on.

So far, we've been a little behind on Wealth By Level, but at level 3, its really hard to tell. VoP would probably be a little OP by the way its going, but I still don't think its worth it.

His Intelligence is 11, and his Charisma is a 7, so those feats of Int or Charisma to AC don't really help. My Strength is +2, Con +3, Dex +0, and Wis +2. Altogether bleh rolls, but whatever.

Amechra, could you link that? I can't find anything since they converted it all to 4.0.

[Zonugal]

As for VoP, I am looking for other ways to be effective without weapons and preferably without manufactured armor. This means primarily unarmed damage, but also buffs that are contingent on lack of armor or such, ie, fast movement.

VoP is out of the question. First, I cannot stretch to Lawful Good. He's in play at this point, though early, and I roleplay too much to just spontaneously switch. Also, it requires a prerequisite feat, which I am a level behind on.

So far, we've been a little behind on Wealth By Level, but at level 3, its really hard to tell. VoP would probably be a little OP by the way its going, but I still don't think its worth it.

Have you asked the DM if you could revise the feat? By switching out the exalted feats for vile/deformity/devil-touched feats and merely inverting all the good bonuses (protections, DR, ect.) to evil you could have Vow of Poverty becomes Vow of Pride. You still disdain all material possessions because you are to prideful to depend on such trinkets, in addition you have placed such a focus on perfecting your body as a an item of perfection.

Eh?

[Ursus the Grim]

Have you asked the DM if you could revise the feat? By switching out the exalted feats for vile/deformity/devil-touched feats and merely inverting all the good bonuses (protections, DR, ect.) to evil you could have Vow of Poverty becomes Vow of Pride. You still disdain all material possessions because you are to prideful to depend on such trinkets, in addition you have placed such a focus on perfecting your body as a an item of perfection.

Eh?

While it sounds good, (Pride is actually his major flaw) I think I'm going to still shy away from it. I'd have to get the DM's permission for something many consider cheesy anyway, and then I'd have to fit those feats in there somewhere.

[Lyndworm]

I think I've fixed your table.

Vhirek Ornmolik
{table=head]
ECL|
Level Taken|
Skills Purchased|
Notes

1|
Lizardfolk 1|
Jump 4, Swim 4|Great Fortitude

2|
Lizardfolk 2|
Jump 1, Swim 1|

3|
Lizardfolk 3|
Jump 1, Swim 1|

4|
Swordsage 1|
Hide 2, Move Silently 3, Swim 1|Power Attack

5|
Swordsage 2|
Hide 3, Jump 1, Move Silently 2|

6|
Swordsage 3|
Jump, Swim 1|

7|
Swordsage 4|
Handle Animal 1, Tumble 4|Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed)

8|
Swordsage 5|
Handle Animal 3|

9|
Scaled Horror 1|
Survival 4|For improved grab and Survival as class skill.

10|
Fist of the Forest 3|
Concentration 2|Superior Unarmed Strike

11|
Fist of the Forest 2|
Concentration 2|

13|
Fist of the Forest 3|
Concentration 2|

14|
Swordsage 6|
Knowledge (Religion) 1, Tumble 4|Alertness

15|
Swordsage 7|
Knowledge (Religion) 3|

16|
Swordsage 8|
Knowledge (Arcana) 3|

17|
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries||[/table]
How's that? So you know, size codes don't work with tables. Also, yours would've worked fine, but you forgot to close it.

[Ursus the Grim]

Thanks, Lyndworm. When they reorganized the forums, they mentioned a temporary disablement of tables. Having failed to find where I was frelling up the table, I assumed tables weren't fixed yet. Thanks again.

[The Cat Goddess]

Monk's Belt
Ring of Protection
Amulet of Natural Armor
+Wisdom item
+Dex item
Fanged Ring (treat unarmed strikes as one size larger, deal 1 Con damage on Crit, found in Dragon Magazine)

[Ursus the Grim]

Monk's Belt
Ring of Protection
Amulet of Natural Armor
+Wisdom item
+Dex item
Fanged Ring (treat unarmed strikes as one size larger, deal 1 Con damage on Crit, found in Dragon Magazine)

Those items are pretty much what I was already considering. Do you think its wiser to save up for the Monk's Belt first or pick up the others on my way there? I'm level 3 right now with about 600 gp (yeah, low-wealth game).

Also, does anyone know where I can find that issue of Dragon? I don't want to ask for something without having a printed representation. I used to have a subscription, but I think it ran out by then.