True, actual, real, literal, immortality + invincibility

[Brock Samson]

Basically: is this possible??? And if so how and what level could it be done at?

This assumes you have standard WBL for whatever level you need to be at, NO infinite loops for creating cash, you can't gain the powers of the Sarrukh (or whatever that serpent is that makes you the DM), and only 3.5 material allowed.

Is it actually possible to make yourself immortal and unkillable? I'm not debating whether you actually WANT to be, but can you?

What you'd have to have:
1. A way to not die from damage, be it untyped, elemental, or magical.
2. A way to not die from old age.
3. A way to not die from sickness/disease/genetic health conditions/etc.
4. What else/anything else?

This is assuming that your character can be found by those who wish him dead (which for this purpose will be every a person from every Class, 10 of 'em we'll say, all level 20).

[Keld Denar]

0) Be Necropolitan, Elan, WARFORGED, or other race that doesn't age
1) Planeshift to the Etherial Plane
2) Cast Genesis
2a) Entry to your demiplane is restricted to you.
2b) Time, relative to the material plane, is fast. 8 hours = 6 seconds at least
2c) The floor of your infinite plane is made from solid jacynth.
3) Project yourself Astrally back onto the prime.

If you are killed for any reason, you wake up on your private demiplane, make a cup of tea, rememorize spells, file your nails, take a hot bath, and project back to the prime. Only 1 round of apparent time will have passed, you have a fresh alotment of spells and the foresight to know what dirty tricks destroyed your previous incarnation.

If that isn't what you are looking for, try looking up the Emerald Legion by a fellow named JeminiZero. Basically, genetically engineered soldiers immune to YES.

[Amnestic]

The floor of your infinite plane is made from solid jacynth.

I'm not in the know. Besides being extremely extravagant, what does this do?

[Psyren]

Warforged Psion 20 with the Save Game trick.

Even if something is capable of killing you that your layers of Clairsentience weren't able to foresee (highly unlikely, but possible), you can simply rewind time and set something up to deal with it.

[Keld Denar]

I'm not in the know. Besides being extremely extravagant, what does this do?

Jacynth is the material component for Astral Projection. If you have the floor of your ever expanding demiplane be made of it, you'd essentially have a near infinite supply of the stuff.

Not like you'd REALLY need it, though, as you could always Planar Bind a pet Nightmare and make IT Astrally Project you for free.

Just, you know, cutting out the middleman, or middlehorse, as it were.

[faceroll]

Warforged Psion 20 with the Save Game trick.

Even if something is capable of killing you that your layers of Clairsentience weren't able to foresee (highly unlikely, but possible), you can simply rewind time and set something up to deal with it.

I love that trick. It may be one of the most awesome pieces of optimization in the game.

[NichG]

Have the feats Wedded to History and Pawn of the Great Game. Have an innate, non-magically based Fort save of at least 24-your level. Find a way to not fail Fort saves on 1s (I think you can get this from a feat or class feature, but I can't remember the name of it).

Now you're ageless and whenever you die you have to roll a Fort save you can't fail or instead by at 1hp. You could still be turned to stone I guess, so you probably want to be a Saint for the immunity to transformation.

Minimum level, dunno, maybe ECL 5? The Fort save is the hard part - you might need to rely on magic for a few more levels, so you can still be killed in an AMF. Lets see, if you took all classes with good saves, you could have a +10 base by level 5 (ECL 7), plus a +5 from Con, +2 from Great Fortitude, +1 for Luck of Heroes, +1 for a Fort-save boosting Trait, gives you is +19 vs DC 20, which is just enough. You'd need to have 5 feats, so you can just pull it off with 2 flaws. Is Divine Grace supernatural or extraordinary? If its Ex, you could do it earlier.

[Voldecanter]

You want a Lich that has a phylactery that is hidden in a universe made by the wizard that only the wizard can access, and even then the Plylactery is made out of a substance that is more or less indestructible, invisible, and regenerates if damaged.

[Galsiah]

Find some way to gain divine ranks and take the salient divine ability that makes it so you reform in 10d10 days whenever you are destroyed. The only thing that can kill you is a deity with a divine rank equal to or greater than yours. By virtue of divine ranks you're already immune to most things, and the reforming is just icing on the cake. It's the getting divine ranks that is the hard part. :smallbiggrin:

[LordBlades]

You want a Lich that has a phylactery that is hidden in a universe made by the wizard that only the wizard can access, and even then the Plylactery is made out of a substance that is more or less indestructible, invisible, and regenerates if damaged.

Actually IIRC the invulnerable lich trick was something like this:

Dominate a commoner, make him step with you in a Portable hole and swallow your philactery. Then proceed to cast Imprisonment on the poor dude. Afterward, exit the Portable Hole and destroy it. The imprisoned commoner is invulnerable ('no force or effect can harm him' as per Imprisonment RAW) and the only way to make it not invulnerable (even if you manage to find him inside the Imprisonment sphere) would be to cast Freedom at the place where he was imprisoned, which you can't, since the place no longer exists (each Portable Hole has it's own non-dimensional space.

[Veyr]

I know Pun-Pun isn't allowed for this competition, but I figured that I'd point out that if Pun-Pun does exist in the setting, then the answer to the question "is it possible (barring Manipulate Form)" is no - because there is no defense you can set up that Pun-Pun cannot ignore utterly and effortlessly.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually IIRC the invulnerable lich trick was something like this:

Dominate a commoner, make him step with you in a Portable hole and swallow your philactery. Then proceed to cast Imprisonment on the poor dude. Afterward, exit the Portable Hole and destroy it. The imprisoned commoner is invulnerable ('no force or effect can harm him' as per Imprisonment RAW) and the only way to make it not invulnerable (even if you manage to find him inside the Imprisonment sphere) would be to cast Freedom at the place where he was imprisoned, which you can't, since the place no longer exists (each Portable Hole has it's own non-dimensional space.

That does make it difficult for the Litch to get out of, should he ever have his body 'killed'. In fact, some might even say he just destroyed his own phylactery that way.

The only problem with this plan is that, even if it succeeds, Inevitables will probably be showing up on your doorstep in droves.

[Veyr]

IIRC, there's nothing in the Lich rules that say he respawns anywhere near the phylactery... just that it must still exist.

[tonberrian]

Liches also have an unfortunate vulnerability to Hunters of the Dead, who can kill them dead without touching the phylactery.

You also want immunity to Holy Word and its counterparts, because that can kill/destroy things without having easily resisted keywords. Spell Immunity and alignment subtypes help.

[Jack_Simth]

Basically: is this possible??? And if so how and what level could it be done at?

This assumes you have standard WBL for whatever level you need to be at, NO infinite loops for creating cash, you can't gain the powers of the Sarrukh (or whatever that serpent is that makes you the DM), and only 3.5 material allowed.

Is it actually possible to make yourself immortal and unkillable? I'm not debating whether you actually WANT to be, but can you?

What you'd have to have:
1. A way to not die from damage, be it untyped, elemental, or magical.
2. A way to not die from old age.
3. A way to not die from sickness/disease/genetic health conditions/etc.
4. What else/anything else?

This is assuming that your character can be found by those who wish him dead (which for this purpose will be every a person from every Class, 10 of 'em we'll say, all level 20).

It is possible to be immune to death, yes.

Step 1: Be a Ghost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm) with at least 16 hit dice (so you don't fail a Rejuvenation check - EVER - even if the target in step 2 dies).
Step 2: Use Mind Switch, True (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) (a Power Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/powerStones.htm) will do, if you can make sure the target fails it's save, and you can find a way to activate the power stone reliably) on something that is:
1) Not Undead
2) Subject to mind-affecting effects
3) Unaging
4) Is immune to negative levels and level drain
5) (optional): Has useful Ex abilities (such as Regeneration, Fast Healing, Flight, Darkvision, or whatever).
A Level-1 Warforged Fighter works quite well.

Step 3: Review the rules you've just invoked. True Mind Switch inherits from Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitch.htm). You keep your mental ability scores, HP, base saves, class abilities, Su and Sp abilities, spells, powers, skills, and feats. You get the new body's type, Strength, Dex, Con, simple physical characteristics (natural armor, natural attacks, movement modes, et cetera), Ex special attacks and special qualities, and equipment. So you keep the Ghost's Rejuvenation, and gain basically all the Warforged benefits. You're also no longer Undead, and are not vulnerable to the Hunter of the Dead. However, you pretty much need to be ECL 21 (unless you're in Gestalt, or LA buyoff is in effect), although there is an [Evil] spell that can create a Ghost pre-Epic....

Now, granted, if you're killed inside an AMF, you stay dead (Rejuvenation is Su), and it's still possible to permanently contain you (turn you to stone, trap you in an Iron Flask, whatever), but that pretty much meets your criteria, no?

[Analytica]

0) Be Necropolitan, Elan, WARFORGED, or other race that doesn't age
1) Planeshift to the Etherial Plane
2) Cast Genesis
2a) Entry to your demiplane is restricted to you.
2b) Time, relative to the material plane, is fast. 8 hours = 6 seconds at least
2c) The floor of your infinite plane is made from solid jacynth.
3) Project yourself Astrally back onto the prime.

If you are killed for any reason, you wake up on your private demiplane, make a cup of tea, rememorize spells, file your nails, take a hot bath, and project back to the prime. Only 1 round of apparent time will have passed, you have a fresh alotment of spells and the foresight to know what dirty tricks destroyed your previous incarnation.

If that isn't what you are looking for, try looking up the Emerald Legion by a fellow named JeminiZero. Basically, genetically engineered soldiers immune to YES.

Astral Projection is vulnerable to silver swords though. If the cord is cut, IIRC, you die.

[Aharon]

Immortal Race + Persistent Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) + a way to avoid Disjunctions (Tower Shield, other Burst-avoiding measures) and dispels as reliably as possible. "Invulnerable" is a D&D term that doesn't come up often, its definition in the spell Time Stop is "cannot be targeted"

Worse than the already mentioned AP+Genesis, mentioned for sake of completeness.

Vulnerable to sneaky and intelligent use of area dispels and disjunction, can be worked around, but not with 100% security. The best way I found was a Warforged Psionic Artificer with the Weapon Familiar ACF. Use a Weapon with the Morphing enhancement and morph it into a Tower Shield. It can share your powers, so it is affected by Timeless body, too. Make it a legacy item so it has a +20 base will save, which is not bad at level 13 - you can share eventual save enhancing powers/spells with it.

It's also available to Psionic Artificers at level 13, Ardents with Time Domain and that online ACF at level 17, and normal psions with those Kalashtar-only shards UPD'd at level 17.

Your opponent has to cast a lot of disjunctions or even morearea dispels (you manifest the Timeless Body at a lower manifester level than all your other buffs, so that those are effected by area dispels first, and you share all of those with your shield) till your tower shield is disjoined, must then destroy your shield, and can afterwards proceed to dispel your Timeless body and destroy you. There's quite a few steps between you and destruction. Using a variant of the Save Game Trick (Psionic Tattoo of Time Regression with an inducer) makes you even safer. Make it trigger whenever your Tower Shield fails a saving throw.

Note: This entry relies on the PHB entry of the Tower Shield that gives you total cover, i.e. independent of the direction it faces. It was never errata'd, but Skip made up another rule in the FAQ.

[Jack_Simth]

Oh, hey: You can combine the Ghost switching minds with a Warforged with the Genesis Plane & Astral Projection trick! If you enter an AMF, the Astral projection goes away, and you're home safe and sound - so you can't be killed in an AMF, which was the only real hole in the Ghost using True Mind Switch on a Warforged.

[Aspenor]

A plane created by Genesis is not infinite.

Not that it matters to a wizard using the closed plane + Astral Projection abuse, especially when they can just...you know...cast it again and make the plane bigger.

[Jack_Simth]

A plane created by Genesis is not infinite.No it's not. However, depending on which (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm) version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) of Genesis you use, it keeps slowly growing forever - which, while not strictly infinite, is close enough for the purpose of having lots of material components for Astral Projection.

[Wookie-ranger]

A plane created by Genesis is not infinite.


Its not infinite, you are right. (at the least the Wiz9 version.)

but anytime you cast Genesis you increase the size by 180ft RADIUS.
Assuming that your plane is a sphere with the top half being air and the bottom solid the first casting gives you 12,214,500 ft3 of jacynth.
the second 97,716,000 ft3.
the third 329,792,000 ft3.

it might as well be infinite.

[Urpriest]

2a) Entry to your demiplane is restricted to you.


I've seen this part proposed several times in Genesis shenanigans. How exactly is it accomplished? I don't see anything in the Genesis spell that keeps people from just waltzing in via normal planar travel.

[Gurgeh]

Your mathematics are suspect. Volume of a sphere is πr cubed; for a 180-foot radius sphere with a 50/50 composition, you're looking at closer to 9.1 million cubic feet (and about 73 million for the second casting).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I've seen this part proposed several times in Genesis shenanigans. How exactly is it accomplished? I don't see anything in the Genesis spell that keeps people from just waltzing in via normal planar travel.

Probably the focus.

Eschew Materials only works on material components, not on foci.

[Urpriest]

Probably the focus.

Eschew Materials only works on material components, not on foci.

Irrelevant. It's costless, and unlike things like Ice Assassin there's no special requirement for getting it. Knowing the spell means you automatically know what size and metal type to use for any plane you're aiming for, just like you know the components for every other spell you cast. It's just sitting there in your spell component pouch.

Besides, plenty of planar travel techniques out there that don't require that focus. Astral Caravan is the lowest-level such.

[NNescio]

How do you stop someone from Wish-teleporting into your private demiplane?

[Havvy]

Would pisonic genesis allow you to make a plane out of jacynth?

[Wookie-ranger]

Your mathematics are suspect. Volume of a sphere is πr cubed; for a 180-foot radius sphere with a 50/50 composition, you're looking at closer to 9.1 million cubic feet (and about 73 million for the second casting).

that's the area of a circle. volume of a sphere is 4/3 πr cubed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere

[Chronos]

You could be an ever-regenerating ghost pre-ECL 20 if you're a lawful crusader. Take Aura of Perfect Order, and just make sure you never have to rejuvenate more than once per round.

And someone mentioned wanting to not auto-fail Fort saves on a natural 1. You can get that from a bunch of levels (something like 17) in Knight, or alternately from the Steadfast Determination feat (prerequisite Endurance, but it's worth two feats).

[Emperor Tippy]

Be an Illithid Savant. Use Ice Assassin to make an Aleax Psion 20 with True Mind Switch. Order it to True Mind Switch with you. Create an Ice Assassin Aleax of yourself. Order it to let you eat it's brain. Gain it's Ex ability Singular Enemy.

You now have two seperate copies of Singular enemy, each with a specific different enemy (one of which is you). Now the only thing in the entire game that can harm you is backlash damage from your own epic spells. To get around that place a Craft Contingent Temporal Stasis spell on yourself set to activate if you would take Backlash damage. It activates and you are unharmed from the backlash damage, at which point your craft contingent break enchantment goes off and strips off the Temporal Stasis.

Although if the spell has 1 round casting time you can use the power Timeless Body and negate the backlash damage that way.

[Randomguy]

I think Lord Tippy got perfect immortality by using true mind switch with the ice assassin of a mind flayer, then eating the brain of an Ice Assassin Aleax (that construct that can't be hurt by anyone except it's mark, the ability that lets it do this is called singular enemy.) of yourself, after ordering it to shapechange into a form with a brain. Do this again, and you get the singular enemy ability from more than one creature, so you can't be hurt by anything.

Also, as a construct, you can't die of anything in like old age or illness.

This is, however, only achievable in epic levels since you need to take a bunch of levels of illithid savant after already being able to cast ice assassin.

There's another, easier to achieve method, also created by lord Tippy, which involves using fusion to merge with one or more ice assassins, (one of them being the ice assassin of an Aleax) manifesting Astral Seed, killing yourself (You have to be your own singular enemy for it to work) and then regrowing as the fused being.

[Gurgeh]

that's the area of a circle. volume of a sphere is 4/3 πr cubed.
Buh, you'd think I could get something that straightforward correct. :(

If we're going to continue with creative interpretation of the rules, however, I might as well suggest persisting a time stop spell. You won't be able to do anything, true, but you'll be completely untouchable by RAW.

[Answerer]

Your mathematics are suspect. Volume of a sphere is πr cubed; for a 180-foot radius sphere with a 50/50 composition, you're looking at closer to 9.1 million cubic feet (and about 73 million for the second casting).
Uhh... no? The volume of a sphere is http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/e/6/7/e678db0137d57dddf5d66f02a6fdf4ef.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere#Volume_of_a_sphere).

Oh hey, there was a second page...

[Alleran]

How do you stop someone from Wish-teleporting into your private demiplane?
You don't. I think Wish is the one thing that can't be blocked, because it will move you and whoever you're bringing with you to your destination regardless of local conditions. That includes anything designed to block or otherwise hinder teleportation/plane shifting.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You don't. I think Wish is the one thing that can't be blocked, because it will move you and whoever you're bringing with you to your destination regardless of local conditions. That includes anything designed to block or otherwise hinder teleportation/plane shifting.

Your problem isn't that Wish won't work, but that you'll be pissing off something capable of creating Ice Assassins of deities capable of simply declaring you dead by entering it's sanctum.

The wizard will have home-turf advantage, with years devoted to setting up overlapping layers of traps, glyphs, runes, and other unpleasantness. He also well knows that about the only thing that can penetrate his domain would be a Wish spell, which means any intruder is going to have access to, at a minimum, 9th level arcane magic. Which means he isn't going to give any intruders a chance.

Wish yourself there, and you will wish you hadn't...

[Alleran]

Your problem isn't that Wish won't work, but that you'll be pissing off something capable of creating Ice Assassins of deities capable of simply declaring you dead by entering it's sanctum.
Well, the question was whether or not it would work, not whether or not it was a good idea.

[Marnath]

I've seen this part proposed several times in Genesis shenanigans. How exactly is it accomplished? I don't see anything in the Genesis spell that keeps people from just waltzing in via normal planar travel.

I kinda doubt he's going to answer that, since the post in question was made more than a year ago. :smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

Actually, I am still here. While I'd imagine that since it is your plane, you could put some sort of password protection on it. Barring that, a simple high level Forbiddance effect covering your whole plane would work. Forbiddance has 2 parts. First prevents anyone from traveling into the sadder area via Teleport or Plane Shift. The second deals damage to anyone who waltzes in by foot. Simply cover all of your base with it, and no one can Shift in without the password.

As for how, since it is a Divine spell, simply get a staff made of it, the UMD it with a bunch of skill bonuses. Cast Guidance of the Avatar or something for a +20 bonus to jack the DO super high so SR is a nonissue.

[Urpriest]

Actually, I am still here. While I'd imagine that since it is your plane, you could put some sort of password protection on it.

Forbiddance etc. makes sense, but are a step beyond a simple Genesis. What I'm concerned with is this sentence: is there a way using just the Genesis spell etc. to put password protection on your plane? Or do you just mean with Forbiddance or the like?

[hamishspence]

I wonder- can a suitably powerful villain collapse your demiplane from the outside?

In Dragon magazine's Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Demogorgon, it mentions him imploding the entire plane of a pantheon, and casting the remnant into the Dreaming Gulf layer of the Abyss- which is when loumara demons first appeared.

[Starbuck_II]

Is it actually possible to make yourself immortal and unkillable? I'm not debating whether you actually WANT to be, but can you?

What you'd have to have:
1. A way to not die from damage, be it untyped, elemental, or magical.
2. A way to not die from old age.
3. A way to not die from sickness/disease/genetic health conditions/etc.
4. What else/anything else?

This is assuming that your character can be found by those who wish him dead (which for this purpose will be every a person from every Class, 10 of 'em we'll say, all level 20).

unkillable is easy.
Slade, the Lumi Multihead L creature (can never spell that template, in Savage Species) can't be killed unless you can cut his neck off but as a Lumi he has no neck. Thus unkillable (includes immunity to Vorpal).
Now technically, if he fails a disintegrate and his innate hps is lower than the damage he can be killed (but only because the book specifically calls that out), but otherwise he never takes damage. As a Lumi he is immune to death spells.
He is an outsider so doesn't die from old age (at least no listed max in book).

But this is ECL 8-10 (depending on LA buyoff).
You can still be petrified though. But anything that is even close to kill, can't effect you. Not just death effects (petritfying isn't death so it bypasses).

[Aharon]

Forbiddance etc. is a bad idea, because you lock yourself into your plane that way. Astral projection is a form of planar travel, thus, it is prevented (which is kind of the point - if it isn't, other guys can just Astral project into your Demiplane).

So yes, you can make your Demiplane secure, but at the cost of not being able to interact with the outside world.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Forbiddance etc. is a bad idea, because you lock yourself into your plane that way. Astral projection is a form of planar travel, thus, it is prevented (which is kind of the point - if it isn't, other guys can just Astral project into your Demiplane).

So yes, you can make your Demiplane secure, but at the cost of not being able to interact with the outside world.

I guess you've never heard of Simulacrum before, have you?

Forbiddance blocks transport, but not communication. You can make a Simulacrum of yourself and have it act as your proxy, communicating with it via telepathy or whatever you like.

[hamishspence]

But anything that is even close to kill, can't effect you. Not just death effects (petritfying isn't death so it bypasses).

What about a sphere of annihilation colliding with you?

[Aharon]

I guess you've never heard of Simulacrum before, have you?

Forbiddance blocks transport, but not communication. You can make a Simulacrum of yourself and have it act as your proxy, communicating with it via telepathy or whatever you like.

Thank you for providing a solution, Shneekey. Perhaps you noticed that nobody in this thread mentioned a Simulacrum before, and I answered only to stuff that was already discussed?

Could you please also tell me which kind of Telepathy you would use? Telepathic Bond doesn't work across planar boundaries, and I honestly might have heard of spells that do, but can't remember them from the top of my head. It would be most helpful if you could provide one.

[Hecuba]

I've seen this part proposed several times in Genesis shenanigans. How exactly is it accomplished? I don't see anything in the Genesis spell that keeps people from just waltzing in via normal planar travel.

IIRC, it's from a broad reading of the provided definition of a demi-plane:

You create a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane.
The limited access part is never actually touched on: I would take it to mean limited physical co-termination. Other people take a different meaning.

Looks like Tippy is (quite predictably) more up to speed than me on the specifics. The rules he's referring to are on Manual of the Planes page 153.

[Suddo]

Jacynth is the material component for Astral Projection. If you have the floor of your ever expanding demiplane be made of it, you'd essentially have a near infinite supply of the stuff.

Not like you'd REALLY need it, though, as you could always Planar Bind a pet Nightmare and make IT Astrally Project you for free.

Just, you know, cutting out the middleman, or middlehorse, as it were.

Can't people wish into a demiplane regardless of its rules due to Wish being universal or something.

[Starbuck_II]

What about a sphere of annihilation colliding with you?

I think that counts like death. Unlike petrifying, you still are there when stoned.

[Emperor Tippy]

There is no way in the entire game to block someone from Wishing themselves to a given location. Even the gods can't actually do it. Even epic magic can't actually do it.

Everything else can be (and by default pretty much is) blocked from accessing your plane thanks to the rules regarding demiplanes in manual of the planes. You have to plane shift to them from specific points on other planes by default, and nothing that uses the ethereal, astral, or shadow planes will function (again by default).

It's why most of those "hide out in a demiplane and use Astral projection" ideas don't actually work as stated. You have to cast astral projection outside your demiplane, go back to your body, carry your body into your demiplane and it's protections, and then leave. At least unless you make your demiplane connect to the astral plane; in which case the DM can easily rule that you loose most of your security.

[Suddo]

So because I'd like to be able to link to this build instead of just mentioning it. So with out further ado:
How to be Immune to Damage:
This build will require you to take 2 flaws and use dragon magazine material.
Warforged
4 LA: Half-Black Dragon
3 LA: Firesouled Template
5 Fighter (this can be anything really)
2 Warforged Juggernaut

Feats:
Level 1: Toughness (Could be fighter 1 but it doesn't matter)
Flaw: Adamantite Body
Flaw: Troll Blooded (Dragon Magazine #319)
Fighter 1: Improved Bullrush
Fighter 2: Power Attack
*That is all that is required*

Now the explanation:
Troll Blooded gives Regeneration 1 as a troll, requires toughness and can only be take during character creation. For those of you who don't understand the behind the scenes of a troll; A troll takes all damage that isn't fire or acid as non-lethal damage and regenerates a number of it every round. Firesouled Template gives immunity to fire. Half-Black Dragon gives immunity to Acid. This no means that all damage dealt to you is non-lethal. Warforged Juggernaut 2 deals with that nicely.

Now this isn't to say you can't be killed. There are plenty of ways to get around regeneration and immunities but being immune to them by level 14 puts you well ahead of the curve.

[Keld Denar]

Forbiddance etc. is a bad idea, because you lock yourself into your plane that way. Astral projection is a form of planar travel, thus, it is prevented (which is kind of the point - if it isn't, other guys can just Astral project into your Demiplane).

So yes, you can make your Demiplane secure, but at the cost of not being able to interact with the outside world.

The reason I suggested Forbiddance over Dim Lock is that Forbiddance only inhibits transport into the area. You are free to Teleport, Plane Shift, or Astrally Project out of the area. Plus, if you know the password, which you would, since you made it, you can enter the area via astral transportation as well.

No problems there, other than the fact that its a Divine spell.

[Aharon]

@Keld Denar
I withdraw my objection due to Tippy's explanation, which is waterproof.

Forbiddance says


Forbiddance seals an area against all planar travel into or within it.

(bolding by me.) My reasoning was that you would have to start your Projecting outward within the area of forbiddance - and this wouldn't work because planar travel within it is not allowed. The password just mitigates the damage to creatures of different alignments, if I read the spell correctly.

But, as I said, the general method works if correctly executed as described above.

[Alleran]

It's why most of those "hide out in a demiplane and use Astral projection" ideas don't actually work as stated. You have to cast astral projection outside your demiplane, go back to your body, carry your body into your demiplane and it's protections, and then leave. At least unless you make your demiplane connect to the astral plane; in which case the DM can easily rule that you loose most of your security.
I believe the rules for Astral Projection also give where you have to be to cast it:

"You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation."

So you have to start from one plane in particular, not from wherever you want. Why does linking to the Astral specifically mean you lose most of your security, though, in comparison with other possibilities? Wouldn't any portal be a problem? Manual of the Planes does state that in some areas there may be a tenuous connection to the astral plane:

"Some limited locations may still have a tenuous connection to the Astral Plane even on a prison demiplane. Spells that use the Astral Plane work only within 100 feet of such weak spots, and even then, such spells are considered impeded (as the impeded magic trait)."

At the most, it's going to be a DC 29 Spellcraft check. If a wizard can't hit that regularly by 10th level, then they're not trying hard enough. Oh, and you can also use a Wish while astrally projected to transport your actual body to the demiplane. I don't think you have to carry it to your demiplane personally.

[Emperor Tippy]

I believe the rules for Astral Projection also give where you have to be to cast it:

"You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation."

So you have to start from one plane in particular, not from wherever you want. Why does linking to the Astral specifically mean you lose most of your security, though, in comparison with other possibilities? Wouldn't any portal be a problem? Manual of the Planes does state that in some areas there may be a tenuous connection to the astral plane:

"Some limited locations may still have a tenuous connection to the Astral Plane even on a prison demiplane. Spells that use the Astral Plane work only within 100 feet of such weak spots, and even then, such spells are considered impeded (as the impeded magic trait)."

At the most, it's going to be a DC 29 Spellcraft check. If a wizard can't hit that regularly by 10th level, then they're not trying hard enough. Oh, and you can also use a Wish while astrally projected to transport your actual body to the demiplane. I don't think you have to carry it to your demiplane personally.

If you want actual security you should be cutting all links to your demiplane (specifically including the Astral Plane) and making the plane Limited Magic for pretty much anything that uses any other plane. The only way to get to or from your plane should be with Wish (which you get by using a Similcarum of a Solar, Shapechanging into a Zodar, or one of the other various methods for cheap and easy wishes).

And yes, you could Wish your body back to the plane; the point is that you would have to move your body there in one way or another (whether that carrying is done by magic or by hand isn't really relevant).

Ideally you would block wish as well and use nested demiplanes for access (plane A has a dozen gates to planes 1-12 hidden in it, go through gate 7 which links to a demiplane with another dozen gates in it to another dozen demiplanes, etc. with these planes being as inhospitable, impossible to escape, and deadly as possible.), but there is no RAW way to block Wish.

[Urpriest]

Everything else can be (and by default pretty much is) blocked from accessing your plane thanks to the rules regarding demiplanes in manual of the planes. You have to plane shift to them from specific points on other planes by default, and nothing that uses the ethereal, astral, or shadow planes will function (again by default).


If you've read that section of Manual of the Planes then you've read the definition of Coterminous. I advise you to read the Effect: line of Genesis.

Also, could you point me to the page that says that you have to plane shift to them from specific points on other planes? I don't remember that rule, and the index doesn't obviously point to where it might be located.

[rmg22893]

If there's a plane where a week passes for every round of Material Plane time, you could just take Jade Phoenix Mage and Planar Shepherd, exploding in a fiery burst of doom every round and regenerating infinitely. As far as I know, the ability automatically triggers when you die, since it doesn't specify an action to activate it.

[Rubik]

Be an Illithid Savant. Use Ice Assassin to make an Aleax Psion 20 with True Mind Switch. Order it to True Mind Switch with you. Create an Ice Assassin Aleax of yourself. Order it to let you eat it's brain. Gain it's Ex ability Singular Enemy.

You now have two seperate copies of Singular enemy, each with a specific different enemy (one of which is you). Now the only thing in the entire game that can harm you is backlash damage from your own epic spells. To get around that place a Craft Contingent Temporal Stasis spell on yourself set to activate if you would take Backlash damage. It activates and you are unharmed from the backlash damage, at which point your craft contingent break enchantment goes off and strips off the Temporal Stasis.

Although if the spell has 1 round casting time you can use the power Timeless Body and negate the backlash damage that way.This Does Not Work. You just end up with two singular enemies that can kill you.

Instead you PAO some inanimate object into something you can use the Fusion power on, use it, create an aleax of yourself, True Mind Switch with it, and then unFuse your original body and destroy the body via Flesh to Stone/Rock to Mud/Purify Food & Drink (and Disintegrate the object). Now the only creature capable of killing you is gone and cannot be put back together again.

[Emperor Tippy]

This Does Not Work. You just end up with two singular enemies that can kill you.
Incorrect. Each ability is checked separately.

SE 1 goes "Is this my singular enemy, yes then things work as normal."
SE 2 then goes "Is this my singular enemy? No, then I am not harmed."

Just because you bypass one iteration of SE doesn't mean you bypass both. IS points out specifically that each ability it grabs is a discrete entity and is treated exactly as if it still belonged to who it was stolen from.

[Hecuba]

If you've read that section of Manual of the Planes then you've read the definition of Coterminous. I advise you to read the Effect: line of Genesis.

Also, could you point me to the page that says that you have to plane shift to them from specific points on other planes? I don't remember that rule, and the index doesn't obviously point to where it might be located.


Looks like Tippy is (quite predictably) more up to speed than me on the specifics. The rules he's referring to are on Manual of the Planes page 153.

Whitetext for min length

[VGLordR2]

No matter how many times I've seen posts about Genesis/Astral Projection, I have never seen anyone mentioning the Astral Cord. In the description of Astral Projection, it mentions an invisible cord that extends between your projection and yourself. However, it says that if the cord is severed, you die. Is there some way around this that I don't know?

[Rubik]

Incorrect. Each ability is checked separately.

SE 1 goes "Is this my singular enemy, yes then things work as normal."
SE 2 then goes "Is this my singular enemy? No, then I am not harmed."

Just because you bypass one iteration of SE doesn't mean you bypass both. IS points out specifically that each ability it grabs is a discrete entity and is treated exactly as if it still belonged to who it was stolen from.It checks: Is this creature considered a singular enemy? Yes? Well then.

My way works, however.

Also, a StP erudite can do this: Grab a thought bottle. Find a hagunemnon. Either subdue it or convince it to be your friend (Diplomacy is awesome, and you can just Dominate it if need be; basic hagunemnons aren't all that powerful in themselves, really). Manifest Fusion on it. Manifest Astral Seed. UnFuse. Die. Come back as a gestalt hagunemnon. Make yourself into an aleax using my version of Tippy's trick. Use it to get the hive mind ability. Then PAO rocks into critters and Mind Seed them, using the thought bottle to cover the XP cost (really, this is all it's for; there are other ways; if nothing else, you're now basically a 44 HD creature with access to epic). Then Fuse with them and give them control of the body. Have them manifest Astral Seed. UnFuse. Kill them. Let them come back. Hivemind with them. Instead of killing your previous body you can just do the Mind Seed thing if you want to.

Now you're hive-minded with potentially billions of other bodies, all of which are nearly (if not completely) indestructible, and you can keep making more. Make enough and perhaps only Pun Pun can kill them all.

[Urpriest]

Whitetext for min length

Thanks, I had missed that. It's rather bizarre that you can plane shift to a plane that's not connected to the Astral, but whatever, that's rules text. The more relevant point stands, though: the demiplane will necessarily be connected to the Ethereal, so someone could just waltz in from there. (Yes into your traps or whatnot. But really, you should have traps and whatnot anyway, so that's somewhat moot).


No matter how many times I've seen posts about Genesis/Astral Projection, I have never seen anyone mentioning the Astral Cord. In the description of Astral Projection, it mentions an invisible cord that extends between your projection and yourself. However, it says that if the cord is severed, you die. Is there some way around this that I don't know?

There are very few ways to sever the cord. That said, I'm sure Tippy has a stable of Ice Assassin Astral Dreadnoughts for just this purpose.

[Jack_Simth]

You now have two seperate copies of Singular enemy, each with a specific different enemy (one of which is you). Now the only thing in the entire game that can harm you is backlash damage from your own epic spells.
This is not technically true. You're only immune to attacks. Non-attack damaging effects (such as a badly missed teleport, a bolt of natural lightning, a natural forest fire, a natural cave-in, an ally accidentally catching you in an area spell, etcetera) can still get you. This probably isn't usually going to be significant, though.

Additionally, it's also possible that the DM would rule that you just have two sources of attacks that can kill you.

To get around that place a Craft Contingent Temporal Stasis spell on yourself set to activate if you would take Backlash damage. It activates and you are unharmed from the backlash damage, at which point your craft contingent break enchantment goes off and strips off the Temporal Stasis.

Although if the spell has 1 round casting time you can use the power Timeless Body and negate the backlash damage that way.
Err... Backlash damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm#tableEpicSpellMitigatingF actors) on Epic spells includes the clause:
The caster cannot somehow avoid or make him or her self immune to backlash damage.

It's why most of those "hide out in a demiplane and use Astral projection" ideas don't actually work as stated. You have to cast astral projection outside your demiplane, go back to your body, carry your body into your demiplane and it's protections, and then leave. At least unless you make your demiplane connect to the astral plane; in which case the DM can easily rule that you loose most of your security.
There's a relatively simple way around this:

1) While on the demiplane, get all but a small portion of the plane under a Supernatural Forbiddance (as Forbiddance permits SR).
2) Make a simulacrum of something.
3) Get a block of something that is solid and blocks ethereal and incorporeal critters (Riverine, maybe) large enough to cover the small area you left open.
4) Order your simulacrum to immediately move your body out of the no-forbiddance zone after you've Astral Projected, and then cover the no-forbiddance zone with the block immediately afterwards.
5) Walk into the no-forbiddance zone, and astral project out.

No password required. Inaccessible by anything short of Wish or ending the Astral Projection (and ending the Astral Projection just puts you back there, nobody else).

[Kuulvheysoon]

If there's a plane where a week passes for every round of Material Plane time, you could just take Jade Phoenix Mage and Planar Shepherd, exploding in a fiery burst of doom every round and regenerating infinitely. As far as I know, the ability automatically triggers when you die, since it doesn't specify an action to activate it.

JPM requires arcane casting, and druids (and, by extension, Planar Shepherds) use divine magic.

[Alleran]

The more relevant point stands, though: the demiplane will necessarily be connected to the Ethereal, so someone could just waltz in from there.
Only from a specific spot, assuming that you were properly paranoid and made sure either that there was nothing there to mark it as special (refuge in obscurity) or that it was so wound about with traps that anything capable of surviving to the point where it can make its way through your wards and then shift onto your demiplane is probably going to kill you anyway. Which assumes that the hypothetical person even knows that you have a demiplane, where it is and how to get to it.

Is it possible to change the coterminous nature of the plane during or after the spell is cast? It does say you can create anything that you can visualise.


There are very few ways to sever the cord. That said, I'm sure Tippy has a stable of Ice Assassin Astral Dreadnoughts for just this purpose.
I only know of two, myself. A Githyanki silver sword (which is actually statted up somewhere - a Monster Manual, maybe?), and the Astral Dreadnought. However, IIRC the cord only extends for a foot behind you before it "dissipates" into the mists of the Astral Plane, and there is at least one spell that can fortify the silver cord to make it much more difficult to sever. Add that to a contingent spell saying "if my silver cord is attacked, return me to my body immediately using X mode of transport" and you should be good.

And if not, well, just make sure your demiplane has the same Positive-dominant trait as Ysgard. Not just the Fast Healing 2 part, but the "if you die on this plane, 24 hours later a True Resurrection is cast on you" part as well. So while you're dead from something eating your silver cord, a day later you should be back and ready to hunt down and exterminate the insect who dared strike at you.

[Emperor Tippy]

Why eat a 24 hour delay? Your body should be placed on a automatic resetting, use activated, True Resurrection trap set to activate whenever a dead body is placed on it and bring them back from the dead.

You die and you are back up and working immediately.

[Chess435]

Why eat a 24 hour delay? Your body should be placed on a automatic resetting, use activated, True Resurrection trap set to activate whenever a dead body is placed on it and bring them back from the dead.

You die and you are back up and working immediately.

Y'know, if we were all characters in a D&D setting, you'd definitely be the one running the show.

[Alleran]

Why eat a 24 hour delay?
Because the plane works on a time trait of 36 hours inside for every six seconds outside. 24 hours, resurrected. Spend eight hours re-memorising any spells you've lost/used, a few extra hours to have a meal, take a nap, potter about in the garden and so on and so forth, then go a-hunting one round after your apparent death.

Or include the resetting trap as well and keep the 24-hour resurrection of the plane itself as a backup (can't be too careful), I suppose.

[rmg22893]

JPM requires arcane casting, and druids (and, by extension, Planar Shepherds) use divine magic.

So? Take levels in an arcane casting class. The OP never said it had to be within twenty levels.

[Hecuba]

It checks: Is this creature considered a singular enemy? Yes? Well then.

No, it doesn't.

The actual rules for Singular Enemy cover two distinct but related elements:

Only the intended target can harm it.
Attacks by other creatures than the intended target have no effect.


If thus, if you acquire Singular enemy instance 1 with intended target A and Singular enemy instance 2 with intended target B respectively, then Instance 1 causes attacks from B to do no damage, and instance 2 Causes attacks from A to do no damage.

If there is a weak point in this interpretation, it's not in the Singular Enemy, but in the possibility of acquiring 2 distinct versions thereof.
The rules for Illithid Savant never explicitly cover how multiple instance of the same ability are parsed as a general case: it must be extrapolated from the specific case given for spell casting. While this is a logical extrapolation to make, it does fall into the realm of adjudicating elements not covered by the rules. (Unless I'm missing something-- I don't believe SS has an errata that clarifies this.)



No matter how many times I've seen posts about Genesis/Astral Projection, I have never seen anyone mentioning the Astral Cord. In the description of Astral Projection, it mentions an invisible cord that extends between your projection and yourself. However, it says that if the cord is severed, you die. Is there some way around this that I don't know?

The silver cord is "normally insubstantial:" the only RAW ways I know of to sever one in 3e/3.5 is by use of a Githyanki Silver Sword or an Astral Dreadnought's Sever Silver Cord. Those effects can treat it as a tangible, sunder-viable target.

Regardless, death itself is fairly easy to overcome if you can cast genesis (contingent wish if nothing else). The usual concern is the availability of other effects that can be used to make you stay dead, but they would need to cast those on you (not your projection). I suppose, though, that if immortality only covers "unkillable" for you and not "doesn't stay dead," that could be an issue.

[Chronos]

Why eat a 24 hour delay? Your body should be placed on a automatic resetting, use activated, True Resurrection trap set to activate whenever a dead body is placed on it and bring them back from the dead.That wouldn't work. If your body is already on the slab before you die, then it's never the case that a dead body is placed on the slab, and so the trap doesn't activate.

And most of Emperor Tippy's shenanigans rely on being a high-level spellcaster. Even short of that level of theoretical optimization, though, being a high-level spellcaster is already really powerful. The trick is in getting to high level to begin with.

[Urpriest]

Is it possible to change the coterminous nature of the plane during or after the spell is cast? It does say you can create anything that you can visualise.


You have no control over the plane after the spell is cast as far as I can see, and since the Effect: line requires the plane to be coterminous you can't alter that during casting. Further, you can't specify the location either: the plane starts growing from a one foot radius sphere, and is already coterminous with the Ethereal when it does. Your link is then always at the exact center of the plane. You can still make that place hell to get to, and it does limit the area you need to guard...but again, you're already guarding the whole area because you're a paranoid wizard.

[Wookie-ranger]

You have no control over the plane after the spell is cast as far as I can see.

Unless you add the Planar Trait 'Divinely Morphic'
don't ask me how you would visualize this trait, but when someone can visualize a time differential between different planes of existing then this shouldn't be too hard.

SRD:

Specific unique beings (deities or similar great powers) [Defined at the creation as the one who created the plane, aka you have the ability to alter objects, creatures, and the landscape on planes with this trait. Ordinary characters find these planes similar to alterable planes in that they may be affected by spells and physical effort. But the deities may cause these areas to change instantly and dramatically, creating great kingdoms for themselves.
Bold mine, Italics added by me.

this trait is the "do-what-ever-the-hell-you-want-because-you-are-a-freaking-god" trait.
This trait is SO loosely defined that it basically makes you the DM. "alter objects, creatures, and the landscape"? what does that even MEAN?!?! it lists absolutely no limitations (well maybe except that you cannot alter plant :smallwink:)

This trait is so overpowered that theoretically it can kill Pun Pun (as long as he enters your plane).
Pun Pun is a creature; you can 'alter' creatures; you 'alter' pun pun into a fish; you plane has no water....

[Hecuba]

Unless you add the Planar Trait 'Divinely Morphic'
don't ask me how you would visualize this trait, but when someone can visualize a time differential between different planes of existing then this shouldn't be too hard.

SRD:

Bold mine, Italics added by me.

this trait is the "do-what-ever-the-hell-you-want-because-you-are-a-freaking-god" trait.
This trait is SO loosely defined that it basically makes you the DM. "alter objects, creatures, and the landscape"? what does that even MEAN?!?! it lists absolutely no limitations (well maybe except that you cannot alter plant :smallwink:)

This trait is so overpowered that theoretically it can kill Pun Pun (as long as he enters your plane).
Pun Pun is a creature; you can 'alter' creatures; you 'alter' pun pun into a fish; you plane has no water....

This requires that you make a case that you qualify as a "deity or similar great power." The requirement is vague and undefined, and thus generally inviting adjudication. You clearly have the ability to make the plane divinely morphic, but there's no clear indication that you are a valid option for being the specific being.

Regardless, what you really want is a static plane. Even if someone gets there, they cannot do anything to you.

[hamishspence]

I think that counts like death. Unlike petrifying, you still are there when stoned.

It's not described as a "death effect" and it doesn't inflict damage- simply says "Creature is sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed".

[Brock Samson]

Hi all, OP here. What I'm getting from the discussion on Genesis is that you can make it nigh infinitely hard to find/enter your plane, but if someone Wishes it, then it still happens. As you may have a thousand and one traps, but remember you've got waves and waves of people coming at you with powers equivalent to your own.

The Aleax/Illithid Savant trick seems to be the only true-honest-to-goodness source is unkillableness anyone has come up with, but that's still based on the reading that you can't just be killed by two different things.

I liked the Persistent Time Stop suggestion, but had a fun image of someone who's been doing that every morning for a few years taking their morning jog when they pass by a person who's got the Epic Feat Spell Stowaway (I believe) who is then suddenly encompasse by the Persistent Time Stop and you're not acting on the same time frame, and he can kill you.

[Hecuba]

Hi all, OP here. What I'm getting from the discussion on Genesis is that you can make it nigh infinitely hard to find/enter your plane, but if someone Wishes it, then it still happens. As you may have a thousand and one traps, but remember you've got waves and waves of people coming at you with powers equivalent to your own.

The Aleax/Illithid Savant trick seems to be the only true-honest-to-goodness source is unkillableness anyone has come up with, but that's still based on the reading that you can't just be killed by two different things.

I liked the Persistent Time Stop suggestion, but had a fun image of someone who's been doing that every morning for a few years taking their morning jog when they pass by a person who's got the Epic Feat Spell Stowaway (I believe) who is then suddenly encompasse by the Persistent Time Stop and you're not acting on the same time frame, and he can kill you.

One option is genesis w/ a static plane. Inhabitants thereof benefit from the same level of immunity that extends to people not under time stop relative to people who are. You could potentially manifesr psionic genesis inside the plane to destroy it, but that's the only option I can think of. And a single point of failure is fairly east to cover.

[Taelas]

Nothing is truly immortal. If nothing else, you can stuff 'em into a bag of holding then drop it into a portable hole and watch them be sucked into the void and be "forever lost"; doesn't even have the direct intervention clause sphere of annihilation does. (Granted, it may not be the easiest thing ever to stuff someone into a bag of holding, but ...)

[Rubik]

Nothing is truly immortal. If nothing else, you can stuff 'em into a bag of holding then drop it into a portable hole and watch them be sucked into the void and be "forever lost"; doesn't even have the direct intervention clause sphere of annihilation does. (Granted, it may not be the easiest thing ever to stuff someone into a bag of holding, but ...)Astral Projection, or the hive mind ability and multiple bodies could get around this fairly easily. Anybody know of any hive mind abilities that can span multiple planes?

[Taelas]

How, precisely, does this get around being lost in the void forever?

That's right: it doesn't. You aren't stuffing the astral body into a bag of holding; you're stuffing the actual body into it. :p

You are lost in the void. Permanently gone. Unable to do a damn thing. You're not technically dead, so your soul doesn't go anywhere; you can't teleport, or plane shift, or move your soul into a different body. You're lost in the void, forever. With no possibility to regain the contents of the bag of holding, you're effectively eliminated from the game.

[Rubik]

How, precisely, does this get around being lost in the void forever?

That's right: it doesn't. You aren't stuffing the astral body into a bag of holding; you're stuffing the actual body into it. :p

You are lost in the void. Permanently gone. Unable to do a damn thing. You're not technically dead, so your soul doesn't go anywhere; you can't teleport, or plane shift, or move your soul into a different body. You're lost in the void, forever. With no possibility to regain the contents of the bag of holding, you're effectively eliminated from the game.If you're astrally projected when your body is lost you could always True Mind Switch with someone, or use Magic Jar and whatnot. It's not like AP has a finite duration (barring unforeseen circumstances, such as dispelling).

Protip: Don't get dispelled.

[Emperor Tippy]

Your backup Simulacrum Solar's Wish to return you to it's location works just find. So long as you aren't dead it can transport you from where you are (lost in the planar void) to wherever you want to be.

[Taelas]

Your backup Simulacrum Solar's Wish to return you to it's location works just find. So long as you aren't dead it can transport you from where you are (lost in the planar void) to wherever you want to be.

No. The contents of the bag is specifically lost forever. If a wish could return it, the description should say so.

EDIT: Hmn, maybe not. On second reading, it says the bag is lost forever. OK, fine, it doesn't work.

[Demonic_Spoon]

What, no mention of a Zodar(FF) with the ocean giant's(MMII) immunity to bludgeoning? Can be gained through various mean, the easiest I can think of being fusion. Straight up immune to everything.

@OP the lumi also works, get a spellblade of disintegration or whatever. Also the ghost warforged mindswitched trick is effectively unkillable.

[lunar2]

points to be made:

1. genesis can't create jacynth

2. genesis can't manipulate time traits


You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This power cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). You must add these details in some other fashion if you desire. You can’t create lingering psionic effects with this power; you have to add those separately, if desired. Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane. Once your demiplane reaches 180 feet in radius, you can manifest this power again to gradually add another 180 feet of radius to it, and so on.


The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires. Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.

psionic genesis specifically mentions the things you can't create or manipulate, such as time, while genesis specifically mentions the things you can manipulate, such as terrain and atmosphere. nowhere in the spell description does it say you can manipulate planar traits. the one sentence used to justify doing so is immediately followed by an explanation of what it means.

Tl;Dr manipulating planar traits is neither RAW nor RAI. it's purely cheese.

[Answerer]

Genesis and Psionic Genesis are not the same thing. The restrictions on Psionic Genesis do not, by RAW, apply to Genesis.

Moreover, Genesis specifically states that it matches anything the spellcaster can visualize, with the exceptions of life and construction. It gives a list that is preceded by "such as," which indicates a non-exclusive list. Those are examples, and are not exhaustive.

So if you can visualize a planar trair, or a plane made of Jacynth, you can absolutely make that plane with Genesis by RAW.

RAI is meaningless and is not worth discussing. The short answer is, we don't know and never will. Feel free to make arguments supporting what you think RAI is; it's not really that hard in this case. But I won't care because I'm not interested in what they intended.

What I am interested in is what will make for the best game. And the answer to that is to ban Genesis altogether. Actually, the real answer is to get nowhere near 9th level spells at all, since the game tends to fall apart quite a bit before then.

[Analytica]

RAI is meaningless and is not worth discussing. The short answer is, we don't know and never will. Feel free to make arguments supporting what you think RAI is; it's not really that hard in this case. But I won't care because I'm not interested in what they intended.

What I am interested in is what will make for the best game. And the answer to that is to ban Genesis altogether. Actually, the real answer is to get nowhere near 9th level spells at all, since the game tends to fall apart quite a bit before then.

It's probably stupid of me to even touch this discussion, but... I am convinced that, in a number of cases, we can make fairly good guesses at designer intent. I would also say that if one wants to achieve a game wherein some set of experiences that, say, designers of adventure paths had in mind, adapting according to estimates/guesses/heuristics of rules designer intent may be a good idea if you want to maximize the likelihood of those particular game experiences occurring. That certainly doesn't mean that you need to be interested in RAI, or that considering estimates of it enriches your game, but it would surprise me if there isn't a non-negligible fraction of the gaming community for which discussing it _does_ make sense. I am not saying that matters for the present thread, just disputing that discussion of possible/probable RAI must be meaningless for everyone, anywhere. If that was not what you meant, I apologize. :smallsmile:

In any case, banning Genesis is certainly one way to avoid people using it for weird and broken tactical purposes. But isn't it equally easy to just say that it has restrictions on which planar traits you can set, so that it becomes useful only for the purpose of building extradimensional lairs and prisons? I guess what I want to say is, if you blanket remove everything that can be broken, you do end up with a clean set of rules that require little DM interpretation (and thus perhaps minimizes conflicts in groups where that would otherwise be a risk), but you also lose out on some fantasy tropes or possible things that could happen in the game.

[Answerer]

It's probably stupid of me to even touch this discussion, but... I am convinced that, in a number of cases, we can make fairly good guesses at designer intent.
What good would that do, even if you could convince me that it is the case? I am not, by the way, convinced.

See, this is the thing. It's not impossible to guess about designer intent, but it is impossible in many cases to have any real certainty, and even if you agree on what was intended, that doesn't automatically make it the best way to run the game. So why bother arguing about it?

And most, for the record, don't make good guesses. They merely take their own personal preference, and label it RAI in an attempt to elevate their own opinions in an insulting and logically fallacious manner.


I would also say that if one wants to achieve a game wherein some set of experiences that, say, designers of adventure paths had in mind, adapting according to estimates/guesses/heuristics of rules designer intent may be a good idea if you want to maximize the likelihood of those particular game experiences occurring. That certainly doesn't mean that you need to be interested in RAI, or that considering estimates of it enriches your game, but it would surprise me if there isn't a non-negligible fraction of the gaming community for which discussing it _does_ make sense. I am not saying that matters for the present thread, just disputing that discussion of possible/probable RAI must be meaningless for everyone, anywhere. If that was not what you meant, I apologize. :smallsmile:
If you use published adventure paths, and they happen to be published by the people who wrote the rule you're worried about, then I'll agree that it may have some use. However, the authors of most books are not the authors of most adventure paths. In cases where the authors are different, you're not really interested in RAI so much as Rules-As-The-Adventure-Path-Author-Thought-They-Worked. Not a pretty acronym, that one.

Anyway, most published adventures are awful. Even the ones that are good, are almost always designed for the lowest-common denominator in terms of optimization, so even in completely unambiguous and honestly well-designed cases, a competent party can often destroy just about everything. Every DM I've met who has used one has had to improve most if not all combats. I've never heard of someone having to dumb things down for any but the newest of new players.


In any case, banning Genesis is certainly one way to avoid people using it for weird and broken tactical purposes. But isn't it equally easy to just say that it has restrictions on which planar traits you can set, so that it becomes useful only for the purpose of building extradimensional lairs and prisons? I guess what I want to say is, if you blanket remove everything that can be broken, you do end up with a clean set of rules that require little DM interpretation (and thus perhaps minimizes conflicts in groups where that would otherwise be a risk), but you also lose out on some fantasy tropes or possible things that could happen in the game.
I can think of no use of Genesis that would be reasonable in my games. Maybe in an exceptionally high-power Planescape campaign. Maybe. But the ability to create an entire new plane at whim? That's a power not just of gods, but of very powerful, high-ranking gods, as far as I am concerned. If a player was interested in doing so, that would be the plot of an entire quest, not the casting of one spell.

[Analytica]

What good would that do, even if you could convince me that it is the case? I am not, by the way, convinced.

See, this is the thing. It's not impossible to guess about designer intent, but it is impossible in many cases to have any real certainty, and even if you agree on what was intended, that doesn't automatically make it the best way to run the game. So why bother arguing about it?

And most, for the record, don't make good guesses. They merely take their own personal preference, and label it RAI in an attempt to elevate their own opinions in an insulting and logically fallacious manner.

The game rules don't exist in a vacuum. There are decades of play that makes most of us have some preconceived notions of what kind of experiences and practices makes up a D&D game. There is also the set of preconceived notions about what an adventure story usually entails, or what a fantasy story usually entails. For the produced game books themselves, artwork, fiction and non-rules text all provide an image of what kind of situations the game involves, what kind of stories you are expected to tell with it etc. The same goes for online material that supports the game.

In my opinion, these things are meaningful to the same extent that the rules as written are, since the rules as written in themselves are only some suggestions that a game designer makes to me on how I can go about experiencing a particular type of game. It's true that they have the distinction of being published, so that I can be sure that someone new that I meet also have access to them, but the same goes with all other text in RPG books, and most of the time also for the preconceived notions I mentioned (i.e. most everyone understands concepts such as "the chosen hero", "the sneaky thief" or "the nature-wise hermit"). Then again, the important game is the one I play, so the intention behind the rules is only meaningful to the extent that I think the game experience of the designers actually helps me arrange the game experiences I want.

I am sorry if I am being wordy; it's late and my brain isn't really working well. It's quite possible that we fundamentally are in agreement. The important thing is to play the game you want to play. Designer intent is only important to the extent you want to play the game the designers intended, whatever that was.


If you use published adventure paths, and they happen to be published by the people who wrote the rule you're worried about, then I'll agree that it may have some use. However, the authors of most books are not the authors of most adventure paths. In cases where the authors are different, you're not really interested in RAI so much as Rules-As-The-Adventure-Path-Author-Thought-They-Worked. Not a pretty acronym, that one.

Anyway, most published adventures are awful. Even the ones that are good, are almost always designed for the lowest-common denominator in terms of optimization, so even in completely unambiguous and honestly well-designed cases, a competent party can often destroy just about everything. Every DM I've met who has used one has had to improve most if not all combats. I've never heard of someone having to dumb things down for any but the newest of new players.

Still, the people who wrote one sourcebook/adventure/rule were active in the same context as those who wrote another. You mention the lowest-common denominator in optimization, and I guess that is what I am getting at with what kind of playstyle the designers seem to have expected. When a rule seems very abusable, it seems quite plausible that it would, in fact, have been phrased in a much more restrictive sense if the author hadn't had a particular playstyle in mind where that abuse simply wouldn't come up. Again, perhaps we are saying the same thing.


I can think of no use of Genesis that would be reasonable in my games. Maybe in an exceptionally high-power Planescape campaign. Maybe. But the ability to create an entire new plane at whim? That's a power not just of gods, but of very powerful, high-ranking gods, as far as I am concerned. If a player was interested in doing so, that would be the plot of an entire quest, not the casting of one spell.

I guess. The idea of exceptionally high-powered Planescape campaigns appeals to me :smallsmile:, as does having a secret base which seems to move between places (i.e. Howl's Moving Castle). Unless you are playing that kind of characters though, and if you're OK with NPCs having their lairs set up by some undefined process, then it might not be needed. It's really the kind of spell that you don't actually cast, its more that by the rules stating that it's a ninth-level spell, the benefits it provides in the form of a cool lair is something that you can expect a magic user of at least 17th level to be able to get, but not anyone less powerful.

[Answerer]

Again, perhaps we are saying the same thing.
I think we largely are, it's merely that I don't consider the way you think the designers expected the game to be played to be a particularly fun or engaging way to play the game, making that sort of background largely irrelevant to me.

One of the most important aspects of any game system is that it allows you to play what you wish to play. If someone released a system with four predefined characters, giving players absolutely no option as to how they grew, and then included rules only for accomplishing a series of set tasks, which could only be accomplished by the appropriate pre-defined character walking up and taking a predefined series of actions, and then all items and loot gained was predetermined and furthermore not only could only be used by one character, but furthermore had to be used by that character, and so on and so on, I don't think anyone would be terribly interested in playing it.

This is especially true of 3.5. People certainly don't play it for its balance (it hasn't got that), it's superb simulationism (most of it is a joke), or because it's the latest or most popular system (it isn't). They play it because it offers a wealth of options.

However, options imply choice, and making a choice implies thinking, and thinking implies consideration of what the consequences of any given option are. And it seems to me that the playstyle that the authors expected, at least with the initial release, ignored the actual options being offered and the consequences for taking any given one, because the designers assumed that the players would make the same choices they had.

Do you see where I might object to this idea?


I guess. The idea of exceptionally high-powered Planescape campaigns appeals to me :smallsmile:, as does having a secret base which seems to move between places (i.e. Howl's Moving Castle). Unless you are playing that kind of characters though, and if you're OK with NPCs having their lairs set up by some undefined process, then it might not be needed. It's really the kind of spell that you don't actually cast, its more that by the rules stating that it's a ninth-level spell, the benefits it provides in the form of a cool lair is something that you can expect a magic user of at least 17th level to be able to get, but not anyone less powerful.
It's the kind of thing that, yeah, I don't really want there to be rules for. It should be such a massive and personalized undertaking that anyone who accomplishes it does it differently. A Wizard with that sort of power might take an apprentice, but the apprentice has long since moved out by the time he can do the same thing, and would not, in any case, do it the same way.

[Analytica]

I think we largely are, it's merely that I don't consider the way you think the designers expected the game to be played to be a particularly fun or engaging way to play the game, making that sort of background largely irrelevant to me.

One of the most important aspects of any game system is that it allows you to play what you wish to play. If someone released a system with four predefined characters, giving players absolutely no option as to how they grew, and then included rules only for accomplishing a series of set tasks, which could only be accomplished by the appropriate pre-defined character walking up and taking a predefined series of actions, and then all items and loot gained was predetermined and furthermore not only could only be used by one character, but furthermore had to be used by that character, and so on and so on, I don't think anyone would be terribly interested in playing it.

This is especially true of 3.5. People certainly don't play it for its balance (it hasn't got that), it's superb simulationism (most of it is a joke), or because it's the latest or most popular system (it isn't). They play it because it offers a wealth of options.

However, options imply choice, and making a choice implies thinking, and thinking implies consideration of what the consequences of any given option are. And it seems to me that the playstyle that the authors expected, at least with the initial release, ignored the actual options being offered and the consequences for taking any given one, because the designers assumed that the players would make the same choices they had.

Do you see where I might object to this idea?

Yes, what you are saying makes sense. It's sometimes claimed that a D&D game is not competently played or DM:ed unless it is highly optimized using the rules as written, but as you say, there's no need to invoke RAI to argue against this. More relevant is to always look at what a particular player or group prefers. :smallsmile:


It's the kind of thing that, yeah, I don't really want there to be rules for. It should be such a massive and personalized undertaking that anyone who accomplishes it does it differently. A Wizard with that sort of power might take an apprentice, but the apprentice has long since moved out by the time he can do the same thing, and would not, in any case, do it the same way.

Personally, I kind of like there being a nod to these things in the rules, if nothing else then in order to point out what kind of power level you need in order to do it, and how that power compares to other things. In practice, it would be the kind of spell you sought out the ruins of ancient cultures to find, or researched painstakingly over long time. In a sense, specifying within the rules whether something is doable or not, and approximately how hard it is, serves a purpose in setting up how the world works (i.e. can an archmage actually do something like this, at least in theory, or is it deities only?). But even if represented in the rules, there shouldn't be much need for details on how specifically it works.

[Crasical]

0) Be Necropolitan, Elan, WARFORGED, or other race that doesn't age

....? Elan don't age?

[Alleran]

....? Elan don't age?
I think he means they don't die of old age.

[Demonic_Spoon]

Mmm. Elemental weirds can't be killed by most damage. Perfect regeneration is nice.

[Snowbluff]

Astral Projection is vulnerable to silver swords though. If the cord is cut, IIRC, you die.

Craft Contingent Spell: Limited Wish (Revivify). Activates due to death by catastrophic Astral Projection failure.