Horizon Tripper Question

[mickeymacattack]

So I had a question regarding the Horizon Tripper build that Saph posted (great build by the way I am looking forward to playing with it)

Anyway my question is for ability scores, obviously STR is the key ability for this build but how important is DEX/CON? I am torn between my desire of not getting hit and my desire to take hits. XD

Also you mentioned "Adaptations" but I haven't been able to find these mentioned in either players handbook 1 or 2 (we are using both PHB 1 & 2 as well as the DMG for my game), if they are indeed in these books can someone provide a page number for me please?

Thanks in advance.

[Shadowleaf]

Strength > Con > Dex > Int > Wis > Cha.

I'd get a 18 (or 16 if you're expecting to take lots of damage) in Strength, 14-16 in Con, 12-14 in Dex, 8-12 in Int, 8-10 in Wis, 6-8 in Cha.

[herrhauptmann]

"adaptations" means that you can improve the Horizon Tripper with access to more books.
Here: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415)

Adaptions


The Horizon Tripper works with nothing but the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide. However, if you've got access to other books, you can improve it.

All Core: If everything in the SRD is allowed, then instead of Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1, go Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, giving you the Improved Trip feat for free, even if you don't have a high enough Int. Use the extra feat to get the very useful Knockdown. Hold the Line might be worth taking, too.

Complete Warrior: The Extra Rage feat is great when combined with the fatigue-immunity of the Desert terrain mastery - rage every battle with no drawbacks! You can also go the Shock Trooper route, which synergises very well with Knockdown.

Magic Item Compendium: Lots of good stuff here. Pick up the Bracers of Opportunity for the +2 to AoO's, and an Anklet of Translocation in the early levels to let you 5-foot step, full attack, and then teleport away. Too many other good items to mention.

Tome of Battle: Once Tome of Battle is allowed, you don't really need this build anymore - the whole point of the Horizon Tripper is to give you the same sort of flexibility and general fun-ness that Tome of Battle characters have without going outside core, as many DMs don't allow ToB. That said, putting Warblade into the initial few levels gives you lots of benefits for virtually no drawbacks. Warblade 1 / Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 / Fighter 1 / Ranger 1 is probably the best arrangement.

[mickeymacattack]

"adaptations" means that you can improve the Horizon Tripper with access to more books.
Here: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415)

Ah ok I guess I missed that part, I am looking forward to trying it out though.

Thanks.

[mickeymacattack]

One more question regarding the Planar Abilities, specifically "Alignment". According to the description it says that "You have the instinctive ability to mimic the dominant alignment of the plane. You incur none of the penalties for having an alignment at odds with that of the plane, and spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you. You have the dominant alignment of the plane with regard to magic, but your behavior and any alignment-related Class Features you have are unaffected."

Now to me this sounds like you are basically able to shift your alignment to whatever the dominate one of the plane is, if that's the case isn't this ability almost worthless? Unless you can freely choose which alignment to follow it basically feels like you are at the mercy of whatever plane you are currently in. Sure I can see this doing wonders if say your on an evil plane and someone uses "Unholy Blight" (assuming you are good or neutral) so shift to evil and your fine. But aside from a situation like that it seems pretty limited.

Can someone explain this to me?

[Telonius]

One more question regarding the Planar Abilities, specifically "Alignment". According to the description it says that "You have the instinctive ability to mimic the dominant alignment of the plane. You incur none of the penalties for having an alignment at odds with that of the plane, and spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you. You have the dominant alignment of the plane with regard to magic, but your behavior and any alignment-related Class Features you have are unaffected."

Now to me this sounds like you are basically able to shift your alignment to whatever the dominate one of the plane is, if that's the case isn't this ability almost worthless? Unless you can freely choose which alignment to follow it basically feels like you are at the mercy of whatever plane you are currently in. Sure I can see this doing wonders if say your on an evil plane and someone uses "Unholy Blight" (assuming you are good or neutral) so shift to evil and your fine. But aside from a situation like that it seems pretty limited.

Can someone explain this to me?

On some planes, you take significant penalties if you're not of the same alignment as the plane. This ability negates that penalty. It's also good for evading planar guardians. "No sir, Mr. Archon, I'm lawful good."

You don't have to actually act in accordance with the alignment. That's what this phrase means: "your behavior and any alignment-related Class Features you have are unaffected."

[nedz]

I view this as a stealth type ability. If you are targetting with an effect, of the types it covers, which affects individuals of a certain alignment: you can ignore it.
So: if you are good aligned and find yourself in the AoE of a Blasphemy say, the spell ignores you.
Its of limited use, but very handy when it does apply.

[mickeymacattack]

Ok but my basic understanding is that this ability is really only useful if you are actually traveling to other planes correct? Otherwise the material plane is typically neutral yes?

I am just wondering if its worth it to sink 7 levels in the class as oppose to 6.

[tyckspoon]

Ok but my basic understanding is that this ability is really only useful if you are actually traveling to other planes correct? Otherwise the material plane is typically neutral yes?

I am just wondering if its worth it to sink 7 levels in the class as oppose to 6.

IMO, it's highly dependent on whether your DM reads "spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you" as being independent of what plane you are on, or as part of the other abilities requiring you to be on an aligned plane. Being immune to Unholy Blight and its relatives and especially the Alignment Word spells is a decent use of a level, if you can get it as a passive benefit. If it only applies when you are actually planes-hopping, then no, I'd look for something else to do with your levels after grabbing the Dimension Door ability.

Edit: Cavernous for Tremorsense is kind of neat as well.

[Telonius]

Ok but my basic understanding is that this ability is really only useful if you are actually traveling to other planes correct? Otherwise the material plane is typically neutral yes?

I am just wondering if its worth it to sink 7 levels in the class as oppose to 6.

It can also be useful in the material plane under certain circumstances. For instance, if you're a Good character, you can mimic Neutral, and an Unholy weapon wouldn't get its bonus against you.

[herrhauptmann]

It can also be useful in the material plane under certain circumstances. For instance, if you're a Good character, you can mimic Neutral, and an Unholy weapon wouldn't get its bonus against you.

I'm not so sure it works like that. However:

and spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you
Sounds to me like a good way to avoid getting wrecked by Blasphemy or Holy Word.

There's plenty of reasons to go more than 6 levels in the prestige class.
Shifting, and Cavernous are the most common ones. Back to the material plane ones: Desert, Plains and Underground are the ones I would call the most important. Desert particularly for barbarians (see Saph's writeup for the reason)
But after that, it's a matter of what you want to emphasize with your character, or even shore up some skill weaknesses.

And of course, if your DM is the type to start making alternate planes, then "other" can suddenly become vital, even overpowered.

[mickeymacattack]

IMO, it's highly dependent on whether your DM reads "spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you" as being independent of what plane you are on, or as part of the other abilities requiring you to be on an aligned plane.

I get what you are trying to say except it pretty much clearly states that you "You have the instinctive ability to mimic the dominant alignment of the plane"

As far as I know that in itself comes with all the benefits normally associated with being that alignment I.E. Smite Evil isn't going to work against a good aligned character. My character is going to be Chaotic Neutral so I wont really have a problem with things targeting specifically good or evil alignments, I was just under the impression it was a bit more useful in the sense that you could change at will. Although I can see that being a bit too powerful in its own right.

[Vladislav]

Strength > Con > Dex > Int > Wis > Cha.

I'd get a 18 (or 16 if you're expecting to take lots of damage) in Strength, 14-16 in Con, 12-14 in Dex, 8-12 in Int, 8-10 in Wis, 6-8 in Cha.
If you're going core-only, you need Int 13+ for that coveted Improved Trip, I believe.

[Telonius]

I'm not so sure it works like that.

I'm pretty sure it does. Under Planar Terrain Mastery:


Planar terrain mastery functions just like terrain mastery

Under Terrain Mastery:


Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go.

Under Aligned:

You have the dominant alignment of the plane with regard to magic,

The material plane is Neutral dominant, so while on the material plane you can mimic Neutral for magic effects. Unholy weapons do extra damage to Good creatures, but no extra damage to Neutral creatures, and Unholy is pretty clearly a magic effect. So, Unholy weapons (and Holy, Anarchic, and Axiomatic weapons too, for that matter) wouldn't deal any extra damage to you.

[Draz74]

If you're Core-Only, I think all 10 levels of Horizon Walker are worth taking, even if the last two just get you the mediocre Fire and Cold resistance. It's not like more Fighter or Ranger levels are much better at high levels.

[herrhauptmann]

The material plane is Neutral dominant, so while on the material plane you can mimic Neutral for magic effects. Unholy weapons do extra damage to Good creatures, but no extra damage to Neutral creatures, and Unholy is pretty clearly a magic effect. So, Unholy weapons (and Holy, Anarchic, and Axiomatic weapons too, for that matter) wouldn't deal any extra damage to you.

Yes, but the negative levels are a result of an item. A magic item, but an item nonetheless. You can't save vs it, your SR doesn't apply.
If the negative level effect were identical to a spell, it would say something like "Gain two negative levels similar to/as per the spell XYZ."

But hey, if I'm wrong, that just makes aligned that much more awesome. So far, I remain unconvinced. Anyone else want to chime in on this?

[mickeymacattack]

Honestly I am not even concerned with the effects of wielding things like a holy weapon, I am more concerned with being affected by spells that target alignment. For the most part it seems like the answer is I can shift my alignment based on the plane I am currently in, whether I end up taking more than 6 levels in Horizon Walker I guess I will have to see how the game plays out when I reach that point.

[mikau013]

<snip>
All Core: If everything in the SRD is allowed, then instead of Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1, go Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, giving you the Improved Trip feat for free, even if you don't have a high enough Int. Use the extra feat to get the very useful Knockdown. Hold the Line might be worth taking, too.
<snip>
I always thought knockdown was a deity only feat and thus not accessable by normal player chars, since it says this in the srd:

Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats.

Is it printed somewhere else too?

[Telonius]

Yes, but the negative levels are a result of an item. A magic item, but an item nonetheless. You can't save vs it, your SR doesn't apply.
If the negative level effect were identical to a spell, it would say something like "Gain two negative levels similar to/as per the spell XYZ."

But hey, if I'm wrong, that just makes aligned that much more awesome. So far, I remain unconvinced. Anyone else want to chime in on this?

I wasn't even considering wielding one of those weapons - I was talking about being hit by one of those weapons.

But I think the principle would still hold. Leaving aside Horizon Walker, suppose a regular Good character casts antimagic field and then picks up a weapon that has the Unholy enhancement. Would he still take the negative level? As long as the Antimagic field is in effect, no; the magical effect on the sword is suppressed. Or, if he Disjoined the weapon, it would no longer cause the level loss. That's because the level loss is a result of a magical enhancement placed on the weapon, not an effect caused by the physical weapon itself.

[herrhauptmann]

I always thought knockdown was a deity only feat and thus not accessable by normal player chars, since it says this in the srd:


Is it printed somewhere else too?

Knockdown is a general feat, anyone can take it. If it was a god only ability, it would say something like 'Prerequisite: Divine Rank X"

Telonius:
The fire and cold ones specifically say you get resist 20, so that would help you against a flaming or icy weapon. I'm still not so sure you can use the aligned property to let you ignore Holy/Unholy damage from a weapon. Now, if someone like Curmudgeon jumps in and says you're right, great. But, I currently remain unconvinced.
The effects of the dominant good/evil/law/chaos planes

Strongly Aligned
On planes that are strongly aligned, a -2 circumstance penalty applies on all Charisma-based checks made by all creatures not of the plane’s alignment. In addition, the -2 penalty affects all Intelligence-based and Wisdom-based checks, too. That doesn't really look anything like "ignore damage from a holy/unholy/anarchic/lawful weapon.

[mickeymacattack]

Telonius:
The fire and cold ones specifically say you get resist 20, so that would help you against a flaming or icy weapon. I'm still not so sure you can use the aligned property to let you ignore Holy/Unholy damage from a weapon. Now, if someone like Curmudgeon jumps in and says you're right, great. But, I currently remain unconvinced.
The effects of the dominant good/evil/law/chaos planes
That doesn't really look anything like "ignore damage from a holy/unholy/anarchic/lawful weapon.

I believe the overall point that is trying to be made here is that "You incur none of the penalties for having an alignment at odds with that of the plane, and spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you." To me that translates pretty clearly that you don't take any penalties associated with being at odds (for alignment) with the plane you are on.

In regards to items such as a holy weapon "This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment. It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it." Well that pretty much clearly states that the properties on it only function against "Evil" aligned beings, so if you aren't evil well it doesn't really do anything against you.

That's just my take on reading it, it seems like one of the more straight forward descriptions given for an ability, I was just confused as to the usability as it seems really handicapped since the ability is completely dependent on the plane you are currently in.

[tyckspoon]

The effects of the dominant good/evil/law/chaos planes
That doesn't really look anything like "ignore damage from a holy/unholy/anarchic/lawful weapon.

It's unrelated to the planar effects; "spells and effects" is a separate clause of the sentence. And any time something just says "effects", it's going to cover a lot of things you wouldn't think of at first, because dang near everything in D&D is an effect.

[Saph]

The "Aligned" planar terrain mastery is one of the more awkwardly written bits of the class. The exact text is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm#planarTerrainMastery):


Aligned (Planar)

You have the instinctive ability to mimic the dominant alignment of the plane. You incur none of the penalties for having an alignment at odds with that of the plane, and spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you. You have the dominant alignment of the plane with regard to magic, but your behavior and any alignment-related Class Features you have are unaffected.

Strictly as written, the underlined bit doesn't have any qualifiers, which makes it a very broad protection against ANYTHING that hurts opposite alignments. For example, Blasphemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm) is a spell that harms those of the opposite alignment - so the Aligned mastery makes you immune to it. It doesn't say anything about which plane you have to be on.

Whether this is the intended reading is a bit harder to figure it out. The rest of the Aligned paragraph talks only about other planes, but I'm inclined to say that it's supposed to work on any plane, due to the line earlier in the class description:


Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not.

This suggests to me that all of the Horizon Walker's abilities are supposed to work no matter which plane they're on.

[mikau013]

Knockdown is a general feat, anyone can take it. If it was a god only ability, it would say something like 'Prerequisite: Divine Rank X"


It specifically says deities can take these feats, and thus not everyone can take it. It is a general feat for deities only.

[BenTheJester]

It specifically says deities can take these feats, and thus not everyone can take it. It is a general feat for deities only.

I can eat an apple, therefor nobody else can?

[herrhauptmann]

It specifically says deities can take these feats, and thus not everyone can take it. It is a general feat for deities only.
Umm no. Deities can take it. So can anyone else.
The only ones that are god specific are the ones that require a Divine Rank, or a certain Salient Divine Ability. You seriously think that "hold the line" or "knockdown" are so awesome that only gods get them? What about persist spell, or reach spell? Those are common metamagic feats, but since they're also mentioned in a 3.0 book, they're god only in 3.5. Though a bunch of those are also in the 3.0 FRCS too...


I can eat an apple, therefor nobody else can?
No, the sign says that I'm allowed to eat that apple, thus you can't. You can't have my apple.

edit:
And I guess I was wrong about 'aligned' traits regarding not taking holy/unholy damage.

[BenTheJester]

Strength > Con > Dex > Int > Wis > Cha.

I'd get a 18 (or 16 if you're expecting to take lots of damage) in Strength, 14-16 in Con, 12-14 in Dex, 8-12 in Int, 8-10 in Wis, 6-8 in Cha.

Since the build includes Combat Reflexes(IIRC) and focuses on reach, I'd put more points in Dex. 18 strength is too expensive on a build that is so MAD. On a high level build, Con is much better than dex because the +dex from magic items gives you more attacks of opportunity than you need and because the AC bonus is not worth much, and because constitution at high levels is much better.

For an early game with a 32 pt-buy, I'd go 16 str, 14 dex/con/int, 10 wis/cha (or 16/16/14/14/8/8).

[Telonius]

Got this answer from the Simple RAW question thread:


A 410

"Dominant Alignment" is not a mechanically defined trait of planes; the ability is ambiguously worded. It depends on what the DM considers "dominant." The Material Plane is not "Dominant Neutral," it is Mildly neutral-aligned. Mildly neutral-aligned is consistently referred to and functions as if it were essentially a non-alignment, and appears to indicate that there is no dominant alignment at all in much the same way that "neutral" indicates a lack of moral capacity in creatures with less than 3 Intelligence.

So there does seem to be ambiguity, due to a lack of definition of "dominant." The Material plane might be seen as not dominant anything, or it might be seen as dominant neutral. Seems to be a bit more evidence for not dominant anything, but either way it requires a DM call.

[Curmudgeon]

I always thought knockdown was a deity only feat and thus not accessable by normal player chars
The fact that the feat is available to deities doesn't establish anything about whether it's available to non-deities. The fact that it's a general feat does.

Is it printed somewhere else too?
Yes, it was printed in both the 3.0 Deities and Demigods:
Benefit: Whenever the deity deals 10 or more points of damage to its opponent in melee, it makes a trip attack as a free action against the same target. and 3.0 Sword and Fist:

Benefit: Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.
So use the Sword and Fist version if you prefer; it's the same feat except for the "deity" reference.

Edit: Following the WotC rules, you're supposed to use the Deities and Demigods version, since that has a 3.5 update booklet which makes it an official 3.5 source. That update didn't change a thing about Knock-Down.

[mikau013]

I can eat an apple, therefor nobody else can?
No it is more like, if I have a cart with apples and a sign women can take these apples, it is implied that only women can take them.


Umm no. Deities can take it. So can anyone else.
The only ones that are god specific are the ones that require a Divine Rank, or a certain Salient Divine Ability. You seriously think that "hold the line" or "knockdown" are so awesome that only gods get them? What about persist spell, or reach spell? Those are common metamagic feats, but since they're also mentioned in a 3.0 book, they're god only in 3.5. Though a bunch of those are also in the 3.0 FRCS too...

It says nothing about non deities being able to take these, so no they can't. The other ones just have extra requirements above the listed deities ones. It even says this in deities and demigods:

The deity’s mighty blows can knock foes off their feet.

Hold the line was printed in complete warrior (which is 3.5 I believe) so no, not only gods can take them. Reach spell was (re)printed in complete divine.
If you mean persistent spell it was (re)printed in complete arcane.

That is pretty much the reason why I asked if it was reprinted somewhere.


The fact that the feat is available to deities doesn't establish anything about whether it's available to non-deities. The fact that it's a general feat does.

Yes, it was printed in both the 3.0 Deities and Demigods: and 3.0 Sword and Fist:

So use the Sword and Fist version if you prefer; it's the same feat except for the "deity" reference.

Edit: Following the WotC rules, you're supposed to use the Deities and Demigods version, since that has a 3.5 update booklet which makes it an official 3.5 source. That update didn't change a thing about Knock-Down.

Unless I'm mistaken here, general just implies the 'feat group' thus that you can't take it if you get a free metamagic feat, it doesn't change anything about its requirements.
I don't own Sword and Fists myself. So if your dm allows you to use that version, then yes you can take it, but if you're supposed to use the D&D(Deities and Demigods) version than apparently you can't.

- Editted out a grammar mistake

[Curmudgeon]

Unless I'm mistaken here, general just implies the 'feat group' thus that you can't take it if you get a free metamagic feat, it doesn't change anything about its requirements.
That's not what "general" means. Here's exactly what the rules say (Player's Handbook, page 87:

Some feats are general, meaning that no special rules govern them as a group.
And here is the full list of requirements from Knock-Down on page 51 of Deities and Demigods:
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15. While "deity" is used in the feat's description, it isn't a requirement.

Or just call your character Bob "Deity" Bigsword and you'll find Knock-Down written specifically with you in mind! :smalltongue:

[herrhauptmann]

Wow, Curmudgeon making a joke. I never see you make a joke when telling someone they're reading the rules wrong...


Deities and Demigods page 49:
In addition to the feats in the PHB, deities can also obtain the feats described here, all of which were originally published in other D&D game products. Because these feats were originally designed for use by player characters, many of them have prereqs taht any deity automatically meets, such as a base attack bonus of +2 for hold the line. Nevertheless, those prereqs are retained in these feat descriptions so that the descriptions will be consistent with the way they were originally published.

There, all the feats, deities are allowed to take them. But they were originally meant for PCs. You could use the 3.0 versions of the feats from Tome and Blood, Sword and Fist, etc, but those books were updated to 3.5. Deities and Demigods did get an update, and many of hte feats were reprinted in the Complete series anyway. So you have to use the newest versions of the feats. So complete series, the Deities and Demigods (why don't they say demideity? They're allergic to the word "God"), then finally the 3.0 S&F, T&B, etc.

[mikau013]

That's not what "general" means. Here's exactly what the rules say (Player's Handbook, page 87:

I don't see that statement disproving what I earlier said (or at least meant)about general feats. The general part it doesn't wave any of their requirements. It just means that they don't follow special rules for their feat group. E.g. the tag metamagic feats means that spontaneous casters usually use these feats differently than prepared casters. (unless another feat changes that etc.)

And here is the full list of requirements from Knock-Down on page 51 of Deities and Demigods: While "deity" is used in the feat's description, it isn't a requirement.

Or just call your character Bob "Deity" Bigsword and you'll find Knock-Down written specifically with you in mind! :smalltongue:

Yeah but before these feats are listed it also says this:

In addition to the feats in the PHB, deities can also obtain the feats described here.....
This implies that only deities can take these.


Wow, Curmudgeon making a joke. I never see you make a joke when telling someone they're reading the rules wrong...

There, all the feats, deities are allowed to take them. But they were originally meant for PCs. You could use the 3.0 versions of the feats from Tome and Blood, Sword and Fist, etc, but those books were updated to 3.5. Deities and Demigods did get an update, and many of hte feats were reprinted in the Complete series anyway. So you have to use the newest versions of the feats. So complete series, the Deities and Demigods (why don't they say demideity? They're allergic to the word "God"), then finally the 3.0 S&F, T&B, etc.

I'm not sure what your point is. First you're saying that I'm wrong, and then you post a quote that is in agreement with my point ?
Here I'll restate my point for you: Non deities can't use the feats that are listed under the text : Deities can take these feats.

If those feats were reprinted in other books without that text, than yes player chars can take them.

Now as I already stated I don't own Swords and Fists, thus if that book is allowed then yes players can grab the knock-down feat from there (since it apparently doesn't have the Deity requirement), unless this quote of Curmudgeon is in effect :

Following the WotC rules, you're supposed to use the Deities and Demigods version, since that has a 3.5 update booklet which makes it an official 3.5 source. That update didn't change a thing about Knock-Down.

I don't know exactly how the update booklet rules work, so if this is incorrect than yes you can use the Sword and Fists version. Though that still means you need to have S&F as an allowed source and can't take it if you're only allowed the srd.

[Veyr]

This implies that only deities can take these.
There is no such implication, either by rules-legalese or by the usual rules of the English language.

[mikau013]

There is no such implication, either by rules-legalese or by the usual rules of the English language.

Ah but it does. If it says A can take this, it implies that only A can take it.

[Curmudgeon]

Ah but it does. If it says A can take this, it implies that only A can take it.
Huh? I don't think so. The early Harry Potter books were written for tweens, and the later books for the young adult market. That doesn't mean people of other ages can't read them.

[mikau013]

Huh? I don't think so. The early Harry Potter books were written for tweens, and the later books for the young adult market. That doesn't mean people of other ages can't read them.

The thing is, the English language relies on context. If you're talking about a target audience, then you are writing mainly for them, but if others pick it up it is great for you too.
Though to take another example, toilets.
If there is a toilet sign saying women it is implied that the toilet is only for women and not for men.

[Veyr]

Yes, because toilets have a specific context where that's implied. These feats have no such context. There are three types of toilets (generally): Men, Women, and Unisex/Both/Single-Use, and we know that as a part of our socio-cultural knowledge, so the sign merely has to indicate which type the toilet is, and we know the rest.

There is no such context for feats.

[herrhauptmann]

If you're going to quote me to use my own text against me, make sure you read all of it.

Because these feats were originally designed for use by player characters, many of them have prereqs taht any deity automatically meets,
Any character can use those feats, IF they meet the prerequisites. If it were a god only feat, it would have a requirement of Divine Rank X or better.

[mikau013]

If you're going to quote me to use my own text against me, make sure you read all of it.

Any character can use those feats, IF they meet the prerequisites. If it were a god only feat, it would have a requirement of Divine Rank X or better.

Sorry, I just used the quote function for that which doesn't copy nested quotes.


In addition to the feats in the Player ’s Handbook, deities can also
obtain the feats described here, all of which were originally published
in other D&D game products. Because these feats (as well as
those in the Player’s Handbook) were originally designed for use by
player characters,
First off it says, Deities can take these feats here, nothing about anyone else able to.
Second it says these feats were originally designed for use by player chars.
Implying the printed version here is for something other than use by play chars.

- Edit: The divine rank argument is an interesting one though, reading it again for the specifics now :smallwink:

[Veyr]

Implying the printed version here is for something other than use by play chars.
No it doesn't!

Seriously, rules have to be explicit. You can't "read into" rules like that. There's a reason it's referred to "rules lawyering" — you really need to be very careful that you're not reading into things like that. You could make this (a patently awful, if you want my honest opinion) houserule, but it is not RAW. The feats are fine; nothing in there is divine-level power. Most of it isn't even particularly powerful for, say, level 6.

[mikau013]

No it doesn't!

Seriously, rules have to be explicit. You can't "read into" rules like that. There's a reason it's referred to "rules lawyering" — you really need to be very careful that you're not reading into things like that. You could make this (a patently awful, if you want my honest opinion) houserule, but it is not RAW. The feats are fine; nothing in there is divine-level power. Most of it isn't even particularly powerful for, say, level 6.

Yes it does

The rules are explicit here :
The chapter also presents
thirty feats that deities can acquire, over and above the feats
described in the Player’s Handbook.

Rules lawyering is reading stuff that isn't there. It specifically states in multiple places that these are feats for deities. Talking about how strong something is, is irrelevant in d&d, but that isn't my point and never was(They even printed the druid and monk in the same book). And no chars not being able to select these feats from this source is not a house rule, it is just doing what the rules describe.

[BenTheJester]

The chapter also presents
thirty feats that deities can acquire, over and above the feats
described in the Player’s Handbook..

So, by your logic, PC can't acquire feats in the PHB either.

[herrhauptmann]

So the only way for a player to select feats out of a book, is if the book says "This feat is for players to take."
So how do you feel about the line in the DMG which basically said that PrC's should only be taken by a player with DM's permission. And that should only be done once in a while. None of this, all PrC are automatically allowed if I can meet the prereqs, so my 12th level character can take 4 different PrC.

[Veyr]

It specifically states in multiple places that these are feats for deities.
It says deities can take them. Never says anything about anyone else. Anywhere. You are wrong, and I'm done with this argument. You can keep on being wrong; I don't really care.

[herrhauptmann]

I'm done with this argument. You can keep on being wrong; I don't really care.

You're a better man than I, Gunga Din. I don't like stopping when there's something wrong on the internet.

You got to know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em. Know when to walk away, and know when to run.
Yes, I know that wasn't the right context for that line, but oh well.

[Curmudgeon]

It specifically states in multiple places that these are feats for deities.
Yes, these are feats for deities; they're also feats for PCs. herrhauptmann brought this up before, but apparently it needs emphasis:
In addition to the feats in the Player’s Handbook, deities can also obtain the feats described here, all of which were originally published in other D&D game products. Because these feats (as well as those in the Player’s Handbook) were originally designed for use by player characters, many of them have prerequisites that any deity automatically meets ... You asked, and I answered, about where Knock-Down was previously published; I even quoted the Benefits and Prerequisites of the Sword and Fist and Deities and Demigods versions so you could see that the feat in DaD was just a republishing, without any change in the requirements or mechanics.

Knock-Down is for deities. But it was first a feat for PCs, and that hasn't changed.

[mickeymacattack]

Sorry to put this thread back on track but I had a question and wondered if anyone has noticed. I was reading Saphs build again and just noticed that Tumble is listed as a Ranger skill (maybe I am reading it wrong but it seems to imply that in the wording). Tumble isn't actually a Ranger skill at all, in fact none of the classes Saphs build recommends taking before getting to Horizon Walker (including the PrC itself) actually get Tumble as a class skill. Is this just some typo in the book or was it just a mistake in the build?

Just thought I would point this out.

[Saph]

Sorry to put this thread back on track but I had a question and wondered if anyone has noticed. I was reading Saphs build again and just noticed that Tumble is listed as a Ranger skill (maybe I am reading it wrong but it seems to imply that in the wording). Tumble isn't actually a Ranger skill at all, in fact none of the classes Saphs build recommends taking before getting to Horizon Walker actually get Tumble as a class skills. Is this just some typo in the book or was it just a mistake in the build?

Just thought I would point this out.

Not a mistake, you just take it cross-class. By stacking max cross-class ranks with a masterwork tool and 5 ranks in Jump for the synergy bonus, you can actually get a pretty good Tumble check as early as level 3 or so.

[MeeposFire]

Probably using the cityscape web enhancement that has a feature called skilled city dweller that lets trade the ride skill for the tumble skill. That would be the easiest way I think.

Here is a link

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

[Saph]

Probably using the cityscape web enhancement that has a feature called skilled city dweller that lets trade the ride skill for the tumble skill. That would be the easiest way I think.

That's even better, if you have access to it. The idea of the build is that it works with nothing but the PHB + DMG, though, so I tried to write it so that you don't need any extra sources.

[MeeposFire]

That's even better, if you have access to it. The idea of the build is that it works with nothing but the PHB + DMG, though, so I tried to write it so that you don't need any extra sources.

Oh yea I forgot that was your goal.

[mickeymacattack]

Not a mistake, you just take it cross-class. By stacking max cross-class ranks with a masterwork tool and 5 ranks in Jump for the synergy bonus, you can actually get a pretty good Tumble check as early as level 3 or so.

Ah ok because the way you worded it makes it sounds like you get tumble as a class skill later on, my mistake.

Having fun with the build regardless, although playing a human is becoming a pain in the ass since all of our battles thus far have been in the dark XD

[Saph]

Ah ok because the way you worded it makes it sounds like you get tumble as a class skill later on, my mistake.

Having fun with the build regardless, although playing a human is becoming a pain in the ass since all of our battles thus far have been in the dark XD

Glad to hear you're enjoying it. Re: darkness, that's why you take Underground as your first terrain mastery. Free darkvision. :)

[mickeymacattack]

Glad to hear you're enjoying it. Re: darkness, that's why you take Underground as your first terrain mastery. Free darkvision. :)

Yes that's what I intend to do, the problem is getting there in one piece XD

[herrhauptmann]

Well let us know how it's going as you progress.
Maybe you can bypass the darkness issue for the moment by buying an everburning torch? 110gp or so out of the players handbook.

Also, does the rest of the party already have darkvision in some way, shape or form?

[mickeymacattack]

Well let us know how it's going as you progress.
Maybe you can bypass the darkness issue for the moment by buying an everburning torch? 110gp or so out of the players handbook.

Also, does the rest of the party already have darkvision in some way, shape or form?

Currently our party consists of a Dwarf fighter (sword and board), Elf rogue, human cleric, human sorcerer, and myself. My roommate is the DM and since he is still relatively new to DMing he is running a premade campaign, for some reason though all of our fights have been at night or in caves (go figure). I also seem to be more of a tank then our actual tank (although it helps that he rolled a 1 on his 2nd level HP roll), almost died twice already, once because of an evil cleric who managed to fear the entire party but me and then spent the next several rounds unloading every spell he had on me (DMs words) and our last fight ended up being against a bunch of undead who for some reason popped up literally all around me, I had to tumble through them just to get away before being promptly taken down by a half orc who I couldn't see because it was night XD.

Funny thing is our DM is using a fumble chart and we have actually done more damage to each other then enemies have, I have fumbled twice, once crit the fighter down to -9 and the other time breaking my weapon. Our fighter has fumbled once and crit our cleric down to -6. So yeah I think we are our own worst enemy.

As for the whole everburning torch thing, I have been meaning to get one but I cant exactly hold it while I am fighting since my weapon is two handed. Tried convincing the DM to let me tie it to my arm or something with some rope but he wasnt buying that so I will just have to wait until I get my first level of HW or find some goggles of dark vision.

[Draz74]

Ah, yet another proof that fumble rules are terrible. How many more does the world need before the news will finally spread?

[tyckspoon]

As for the whole everburning torch thing, I have been meaning to get one but I cant exactly hold it while I am fighting since my weapon is two handed. Tried convincing the DM to let me tie it to my arm or something with some rope but he wasnt buying that so I will just have to wait until I get my first level of HW or find some goggles of dark vision.

..it's just a stick with Continual Flame cast on it. Saw off the end with the light, drill a hole through it/file a groove around the middle, and tie it to whatever you need. The rest of the 'torch' is only there to give you something to jam in a wall sconce. Alternately, if Everburning Torches are available, that means somebody in the area is capable and willing to cast Continual Flame on crap for money. Find out who it is and go have them make you an Everburning Locket or Bracelet or whatever.

If your DM is really balking at that, politely smack him upside the head for me (note: do not do this.) Light sources really aren't supposed to be that big a deal.

[Saph]

Continual Flame on a bracelet is a standard way to get yourself a light. Another classic way to do it is the hoverlight. Get a dull gray ioun stone (they usually sell for 25 gold or so) and have someone cast Continual Flame on it. Not only do you have a hands-free orbiting light source, it looks cool too!

If you want a bit more light power, a friend of mine once started a character with a backpack rig designed to hold a sunrod. You hit the sunrod, then stuck it into the rig so that it shined over your head. The idea was to look like one of the marines from Starcraft.

[herrhauptmann]

You've got a backpack don't you? Tie it to the backpack. :) Or sticking out of your belt. But Tyckspoon has the right of it.

Regarding fumble rules, I usually just have them make a reflex save, of 15+Dex mod, or they drop their weapon. Bows? Break the string if they fail the check, takes a move action to replace the string afterwards. Simple, and effective.
Fumbles are enough to effect the game, without killing the party. It's like massive damage rules. Only the party is negatively affected by the them. But weapon break? I hope that goes away after you start upgrading your magic weapons. Or the DM throws you a bone with a new magic sword or something.

[mickeymacattack]

Ah, yet another proof that fumble rules are terrible. How many more does the world need before the news will finally spread?

Oh no I should point out I failed the tumble horrible and got 6 AoO against me, luckly they all missed.

[mickeymacattack]

You've got a backpack don't you? Tie it to the backpack. :) Or sticking out of your belt. But Tyckspoon has the right of it.

Regarding fumble rules, I usually just have them make a reflex save, of 15+Dex mod, or they drop their weapon. Bows? Break the string if they fail the check, takes a move action to replace the string afterwards. Simple, and effective.
Fumbles are enough to effect the game, without killing the party. It's like massive damage rules. Only the party is negatively affected by the them. But weapon break? I hope that goes away after you start upgrading your magic weapons. Or the DM throws you a bone with a new magic sword or something.

Heh well he found this chart online somewhere, I dont know all of the effects as its a d20 role, I know 1 is just a standard miss but so far we have had a 17 (auto crit on nearest target, aside from the one you attacked) and 18 (crit your own weapon) the breaking my weapon wasn't such a big deal aside from the fact that my only backup was my spiked gauntlet and returning to town wasnt an option at the time.

[Curmudgeon]

Another classic way to do it is the hoverlight. Get a dull gray ioun stone (they usually sell for 25 gold or so) and have someone cast Continual Flame on it. Not only do you have a hands-free orbiting light source, it looks cool too!
It may look cool ─ but only to those who are laughing at you. You've got a light that's either shining in your eyes, or projecting a shadow of your head in the direction you're looking. :smallannoyed:

[Veyr]

I can float just over your shoulder, can't it?

Or in front of your forehead?

[mickeymacattack]

Just out of curiosity is there any reason the build doesn't pick up a mithral breastplate? Only thing I can think of is that you will still end up with a check penalty of -1, but the extra AC is just so tempting XD.

[Curmudgeon]

I can float just over your shoulder, can't it?
Nope. You have no control over the flight path; it always circles your head, at a distance guaranteed to shine in your eyes.
When a character first acquires a stone, she must hold it and then release it, whereupon it takes up a circling orbit 1d3 feet from her head.

[Koury]

But there aren't actual penalties for that, are there? Continual Flame'd Ioun Stone works out to be a hands free light source with no penalty that wouldn't also come from an Everburning Torch, right?

[Curmudgeon]

But there aren't actual penalties for that, are there?

Favorable And Unfavorable Conditions

Some situations may make a skill easier or harder to use, resulting in a bonus or penalty to the skill modifier for a skill check or a change to the DC of the skill check.

Give the skill user a -2 circumstance penalty to represent conditions that hamper performance, such as being forced to use improvised tools or having misleading information. I'd definitely impose this penalty to Decipher Script, Spellcraft, Spot, and Search checks.

[Koury]

I'd argue against certian uses of Spellcraft (all of the no action required ones, for instance), but suppose I could see that.

I'd not really even go that far, as I don't think its nessicary (its just a light source. An easily sunderable one, at that) but yeah.

I also kinda feel like its a bit arbitrary (why not impose the -2 on AC and attack rolls. Surely being distracted by a light makes it hard to dodge and fight. Concentration checks? Etc, etc), but thems the brakes when it comes to DM rulings. :smallsmile:

[candycorn]

Concerning knockdown and restricting it to deities:

SRD, Prerequisites:
Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. [/b]

SRD, Feat Descriptions, Explanation of Prerequisite block:
Prerequisite
A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or a class level that a character must have in order to acquire this feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.

So it is safe to say, based on the above description, that when Knock-down states that it has a prerequisite of: Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15...

That a character must have a BAB of +2, the Improved Trip feat, and Strength 15 in order to select that feat.

The very definition of "prerequisite" is something required as a prior condition. If you truly want an "implication", try this one: statements not listed in the area of a feat that describes the things that are required as a prior condition to taking the feat... are not things that are required as prior conditions to taking the feat. Seems pretty sensible to me.

[herrhauptmann]

Concerning knockdown and restricting it to deities:

Stop, just stop. That horse has been beaten to death, and turned into glue.


Regarding penalties from the glowing stone.
Yes, that would be plausible, but at the same time, if you're in melee and it's behind you, your opponent would not be able to see your face to gauge where you're attacking. So he'd be at a disadvantage.
Same way that when you're fighting outside, you try to maneuver so the sun is in your opponents face. (From experience, this can work even on fairly overcast days)
Including little things like that for extra realism, just complicates an already complicated game. But whichever you use, make sure to impose the rules across the board.

Btw: What is the point of that ioun stone? The one that otherwise does nothing but orbit your head.

[Koury]

Btw: What is the point of that ioun stone? The one that otherwise does nothing but orbit your head.
Its good for training. Get a pair chopsticks and practice catching it. You'll make Mr. Miyagi proud. :smallsmile:

[herrhauptmann]

Its good for training. Get a pair chopsticks and practice catching it. You'll make Mr. Miyagi proud. :smallsmile:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fMSekAIVRUM/TBJbCyOaDvI/AAAAAAAAAc0/u7Mq32YasmI/s400/the-karate-kid2010jackie-chanmr-han-fly-swat1.JPG
Hahahaha
One of the better fake-outs I've seen in a movie

[mickeymacattack]

So I was looking at equipment and I came up with an interesting idea when I saw the "Belt of Battle". I was wondering if this could be used in conjunction with the dimension door ability you get from the "Shifting Mastery".

Has anyone tried this before?

[Veyr]

Belt of Battle is an excellent item; more-or-less everyone should have one around their waist eventually.