Avoiding the Clue Bat

[Silus]

So, something that just recently came to mind that I think I need help with.

So, first official session of my horror game, the players were presented with some locked doors in a Victorian/New England style house (on Carceri of all places). One of the players, a "Play by the numbers" kinda guy, tried to pick the locks for all the doors when I had intended them to be unlocked with a key. This was mostly intended so they'd explore the first and second floors of the house and figure out why there is a New England style home, complete with a lush, grassy lawn, in the middle of the first layer of Carceri.

I mentioned several times that there were key holes, that the doors were stuck and/or too large and sturdy to knock down, and at one point, a door "ate" the guy's thieves' tools (Sucked them into the room).

So, the question is this: How can I avoid situations such as this without out right telling the players what they need to do (like that the doors are locked until they can find they keys)?

[Amnestic]

Give the doors mouths? :smalltongue:

[Silus]

Tempting, but then, knowing players, they're probably attack the door ;_;

"OMG ANIMATED OBJECT!"

[Shadowleaf]

Tempting, but then, knowing players, they're probably attack the door ;_;

"OMG ANIMATED OBJECT!"What stops them from attacking the inanimate door? :smallconfused:

[HappyBlanket]

Mhn... Not sure if this fits with your plan, but you could try simply giving them a key to the first door. Letting them know that it's possible to find the keys would help guide them in the right direction.

Of course, that only works for this particular case. Generally, you'll just want to be descriptive as possible, drawing their attentions to a particular course of action.

Just be wary of railroading, if your players are against that sort of thing.

[Silus]

Mhn... Not sure if this fits with your plan, but you could try simply giving them a key to the first door. Letting them know that it's possible to find the keys would help guide them in the right direction.

Of course, that only works for this particular case. Generally, you'll just want to be descriptive as possible, drawing their attentions to a particular course of action.

Just be wary of railroading, if your players are against that sort of thing.

That might work I suppose. Maybe a note or something saying "Look upstairs" or something like that (Maybe in one of the character's handwriting?)?

The first key I had planted was upstairs in the daughter's closet, but the door to the rom was plastered up and painted over. Pretty obvious that the door was behind the wall (Bulge in the wall, discoloration of the paint, ect.), but you had to be making spot checks, which they were.

[HappyBlanket]

That certainly works, if you've a NPC helping them out from the shadows :P
I was thinking something along the lines of "There are several doors lining the wall furthest from you. A humble keyhole sits above each doorknob, and almost every door is shut; probably locked. The door to your leftmost side is ajar, a key inserted."

Combine that with the description in your first post, and they should get the message.

[Yukitsu]

I just do what they did back in those oldschool horror games like clock tower and give them the "e" ending for not solving stuff before hitting certain points in the game.

[Z3ro]

The biggest problem I think is that you're trying to set up a video-game style atmosphere in a tabletop game. That can work, as long as all your players understand the style you're going for. The problem is that in a video-game, if the door is unbreakable, you keep searching for the key. In a table-top game where your character simply does what you say, instead of searching for a key, players often do things like try to break down the door (which past a certain level should be trivially easy to do).

If your players don't understand the kind of game you want to run, instead of dropping hints I'd be upfront with them that they will need to search for clues and act in a specific way to get past.

[valadil]

So, the question is this: How can I avoid situations such as this without out right telling the players what they need to do (like that the doors are locked until they can find they keys)?

Don't write adventures based on a need for them to do anything. Put them in the adventure and let them approach it however they like. Maybe try positive reinforcement instead of negative discouragement? By that I mean instead of saying "you can't go in this door," tell them "there's something interesting behind that other door."

It's perfectly reasonable that given two doors, one locked, they'll approach the locked door first on the assumption that it's full of tastier candy than the unlocked door.

Worst case you can always swap rooms around. The dead body is in the unlocked room, while the murderer is hiding in the locked room. But the players really wanna pick that lock. So instead the body was dumped in the locked room and the dude is hiding elsewhere. It's a little lame to let the players think they can pick rooms, but really it's just you giving them rooms in the order of your choice, so don't do it too often. But I'll take that over being told my lockpicks are useless and I'll have to wait till I can get a key.

[Asheram]

(Praise Jah, one can post again. :) )

Anyhow, I suggest the "Grandfather Plaque" from from Dungeon Compendium.

Place them on the inside of the rooms and have them scream and throw a tantrum whenever the players attempt to pick a lock, or creep them out by describing the wood creaking and metal liquifying as it "heals" the door.

[Yuki Akuma]

Say "Hey guys, I didn't foresee you doing this and kinda wanted you to explore the house in search of a key, could you do that so my notes aren't totally invalidated?".

These are your friends, aren't they? Talk to them.

[Tyndmyr]

The biggest problem I think is that you're trying to set up a video-game style atmosphere in a tabletop game. That can work, as long as all your players understand the style you're going for. The problem is that in a video-game, if the door is unbreakable, you keep searching for the key. In a table-top game where your character simply does what you say, instead of searching for a key, players often do things like try to break down the door (which past a certain level should be trivially easy to do).

Well yeah, the entire point of tabletop gaming is you can do so much more than you can with video games.

Picking a lock is entirely plausible, especially in D&D. If the lock eats my lockpick tools, I'm going to assume there's some magical nastiness around the lock. I may attempt to dispel it before locking. I might stick other things in there to see if it eats them. I probably won't stick a key in there, because I don't want this wierd lock to eat the key that I'll probably need later on.

[Sillycomic]

How can I avoid situations such as this without out right telling the players what they need to do (like that the doors are locked until they can find they keys)?

Whenever you put a choke point like this in the game for your players, you need to leave clues that will let them discover what they need to do in order to move the game further. Personally I love using the 3 clue rule that is pointed out here:

http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/three-clue-rule.html

Is there any clue, other than a door having a key hole (don't all doors in a modern house have key holes?) that says the only way to open this door is by a key?

There should be three clues left out in varying order of OBVIOUS that lets the group know where to go next and what to do.

For example, you create a house which has a locked door. The locked door can not be opened except by the Key. You need to tell your players this, so you lay out three clues within the house that lets them know this.

Clue 1: (the subtle clue) There are other locked doors in the houses that have keys either in the keyhole or right next to them. These keys don't work in any other doors in the house.

This might tell them each door in the house should should have a key, and that each key is different. I say it might tell them, but it couldn't. The players don't necessarily have to make that jump in logic, but if they do all the better. They are off searching the house for the missing keys and the game continues.

Clue 2: (the obvious clue) There is a nail beside the door that clearly has a dust mark of a key. At one time this nail had a key, but it is no longer there now.

This is a pretty obvious clue. Most people should pick up they need to start searching for a key. The game continues!

Clue 3: (The Clue Bat) There is a diary of a young girl that says she unlocked her father's study once and he got very angry. He hid the key and told her never to go into that room again. But she liked going into that room, there was something cool in that room. She is going to try to find the key again. She's searched all of downstairs, but she didn't find any key. Perhaps it's upstairs? She'll go looking again this afternoon once she's had her tea.

This is an obvious clue that hits your players over the head and even nudges them in the correct direction as to where to start looking. This is the be all and end all clue only used when your players absolutely have no idea what's going on and have missed everything else. There's no deduction in logic or assumption with this clue. It lays out the problem for the players.


You might think this makes the game no fun if you are leaving out so many obvious clues as to where to go next, but in fact it's just the opposite. Your players shouldn't have to think about how to open the door. That's no fun. The point is letting them explore the house so they can find out all the creepy stuff you have in the different rooms, and finding the key. So, get to that as soon as possible. It moves the story forward and no one is confused or frustrated or bored with a choke point that they don't know the answer to.

As a side note, you also might want to think about your players when you create certain problems like this. You said this one character had thieves tools? So he's a rogue-like character? You never thought this rogue with thieves tools might see a locked door and think of just trying to pick the lock?

I think your bigger problem is that you created a choke point in the first place. These are usually bad and end up with frustrations like these. The problem with a choke point is that all other options to the solution lead in failure, and it makes the game frustrating.


You created a problem with numerous solutions and then said (to yourself, not to the players) there's only one solution.

Why not just reward your players for being clever and finding their own way to unlock the door?

[Silus]

@ Sillycomic

Thank you for the suggestions, and I'll try to incorporate them in the future =D

As with this previous issue though, there are some unmentioned factors...

1. I was sort of making things up on the fly (Improvisation =D). Like I had the idea of the key places I wanted the players to hit, just not how to get them there. So that bit is on me I suppose for not being prepared enough.

2. It has just been found out/realized (by the players) that the house is, pretty much, a Genius Loci, and one that does not play fair. I based the....personality off the hotel room from the movie/story 1408 by Stephen King (If you've not seen it, I recommend it). This however was intentional and planned beforehand (This I think could account for the stuck doors and the eating of the tools).

As for the Rogue (And Owlbear rogue of all things), he's, as previously mentioned, a "play by the numbers" (A "Roll-Player") kind of guy. In my experience (at least with my game) he never questions why things are happening and is only concerned with rolling high enough to beat some DC (also went upstairs alone in a horror game and tied to destroy the house by breaking and igniting the gas lamps and the piping). Any other location (say, a non-Genius Loci location), I would have given it to him. "Ok, you beat the DC, the door pops open with a click. Have fun looting the room". But when a Large sized 20+ strength Owlbear can't break down a bedroom door, that should be a hint right there.

*Shrugs* First time DMing after all =P Now I know better =P

[Tyndmyr]

It's not the worst of problems to have for your first time. And pretty much everyone has SOMETHING surprise them the first time.

Yeah, I avoid choke points like the plague now. Even if I do use them, I make sure to think up at least three ways through it that the party *could* do. I also allow other things that reasonably should work. A challenge exists to make them be creative and overcome it. Once they've done so, time to move on. Don't want the tempo to slow down enough to get frustrating.

[jseah]

I think there's also a matter of what the players expect from you.

I like to think my friends (and brother's friends) have come to expect that literally nothing happens in the world I set up without a reason for it to happen. And that reason is *never* "plot", all reasons are strictly in-game and local reasons.
(local reasons are things like "the NPC would have acted this way". I do not use global reasons like "the gods will it" or "it was fate")

Even when something is unexpected, like a seemingly normal door can't be broken or bypassed even with insane damage, they know enough to go look for the reason.
Because where something you didn't predict happens; in my worlds, there is always something very interesting explaining why. Sometimes you can gain a very powerful advantage through exploiting it.

It is also a given that sometimes the players will die horribly to something they cannot prevent due to a mistake on their part in-game. I don't stop that either.
But I do not start the players where they have no way out.

[Sillycomic]

It's totally ok. Honestly you are dealing with an advanced GM technique here. This is beyond simply statting out bad guys or making sure there is an appropriate treasure at the end of the trap filled dungeon.

Advanced Gm techniques means you are moving onto being a better GM. Once you have this down you are golden!

Once I learned that getting rid of choke points and leaving out numerous clues for my players made things easier my game was 10 times better. I had more fun, the players had more fun. We just got into the game of it all.

Besides it usually takes less prep time when you don't try to figure out all the ways for your characters to overcome an obstacle (like a locked door)

As the Gm you just stat out the locked door. Then leave it up to the players to come up with a creative solution. It'll surprise you both.

[Tyndmyr]

Jseah, I would totally play in your games. I *love* that style of GMing.

[Oracle_Hunter]

2. It has just been found out/realized (by the players) that the house is, pretty much, a Genius Loci, and one that does not play fair. I based the....personality off the hotel room from the movie/story 1408 by Stephen King (If you've not seen it, I recommend it). This however was intentional and planned beforehand (This I think could account for the stuck doors and the eating of the tools).
For your particular situation, this is a good solution. When a Reality Warper is in play, Players fret less about being unable to open locked doors.

In the long term, though, you need to be careful using Broken Bridges (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokenBridge) and Soup Cans (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SolveTheSoupCans?from=Main.SoupCans) in a Pen & Paper RPG. Players expect to be able to interact with the world as if it were real and that means picking locks (when they have that ability) or breaking down doors.

That said, the "three clue rule" is a fine guideline for constructing adventures. In general, I find "clues" to be a chancy way to run an adventure since Players are - by their nature - perverse: they ignore the obvious, misinterpret the clear, and blow up things for no good reason. On way to get Players to pay closer attention to clues in your setting is to make life much more difficult for them when they ignore them. Perhaps smashing down the door in the haunted house will cause the building to become more hostile to them. Throw in a few spectral messages indicating that the house is becoming more hostile because of property damage and they'll start looking for clues as to how they should be doing things.

[Totally Guy]

Has anyone seen how Inspectres handles clue finding? The agents look for clues and they get to say what the clue is. They draw their own conclusions from those clues and the GM adapts to it.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Has anyone seen how Inspectres handles clue finding? The agents look for clues and they get to say what the clue is. They draw their own conclusions from those clues and the GM adapts to it.
I feel that isn't going to be a valid approach for a game like D&D in which there is a fair amount of number crunching for preparing Encounters later in the game :smalltongue:

[Totally Guy]

I feel that isn't going to be a valid approach for a game like D&D in which there is a fair amount of number crunching for preparing Encounters later in the game :smalltongue:

I just thought that now we're a multiculturally inclusive forum I could say things like that. :smalltongue:

[valadil]

I feel that isn't going to be a valid approach for a game like D&D in which there is a fair amount of number crunching for preparing Encounters later in the game :smalltongue:

If you're making your own enemies I'll agree with that. If you have pre-made enemies and a good way to search through them I think you can work off the PC generated criteria on the fly.

For instance, I saved my cached files from the DDI compendium. If I had clues that the enemy was an arcane controller with a thing for fire magic, I could search my files for all the PC generated criteria. It gives me 8 enemies, most of them in the level 15 range. I could have also set a level range when I was searching, but I wasn't confident there would be enough enemies in a given range. It took all of .3 seconds to run the search. Given the ability to automatically level and de-level enemies and a fancy GUI for GMs who aren't also linux sysadmins, I think you could run encounters on the fly off of player driven criteria.

OTOH, doing so also runs the risk of the players investing in fire weapons and always happening upon clues indicating that the enemies were extra flammable.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I just thought that now we're a multiculturally inclusive forum I could say things like that. :smalltongue:
Fair enough :smallbiggrin:

My real point was that this approach works well for "collaborative storytelling" games but less well for plot-driven games. For example, I use a similar approach when running Mountain Witch because the actual story only gets written as the game goes on. For D&D, I have no idea how that could work effectively.

[Silus]

For your particular situation, this is a good solution. When a Reality Warper is in play, Players fret less about being unable to open locked doors.

In the long term, though, you need to be careful using Broken Bridges (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokenBridge) and Soup Cans (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SolveTheSoupCans?from=Main.SoupCans) in a Pen & Paper RPG. Players expect to be able to interact with the world as if it were real and that means picking locks (when they have that ability) or breaking down doors.

That said, the "three clue rule" is a fine guideline for constructing adventures. In general, I find "clues" to be a chancy way to run an adventure since Players are - by their nature - perverse: they ignore the obvious, misinterpret the clear, and blow up things for no good reason. On way to get Players to pay closer attention to clues in your setting is to make life much more difficult for them when they ignore them. Perhaps smashing down the door in the haunted house will cause the building to become more hostile to them. Throw in a few spectral messages indicating that the house is becoming more hostile because of property damage and they'll start looking for clues as to how they should be doing things.

I had actually tinkered with the house getting angry and coming alive, though I doubt the players would appreciate the DM throwing a Colossal Fiendish Animated Object with Improved Grab at them =P

Attacks of opportunity every time they move =P

But yeah, next time I run this (I'm highly considering making it a personal module) I'm gonna do the three clue thing. Maybe start with a door with a key in the door or something like was suggested.

[Totally Guy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/macdonnell/Blue_Cat.jpg

Oh! He found us!
:smalltongue:

[potatocubed]

Picking a lock is entirely plausible, especially in D&D. If the lock eats my lockpick tools, I'm going to assume there's some magical nastiness around the lock. I may attempt to dispel it before locking. I might stick other things in there to see if it eats them.

Or, if you're my players, you'll blast away the wall around the door and push it over.

This was how I learned never to make doors out of anything valuable. :smallsigh:

[holywhippet]

There are some tricks you could try:

a) Instead of having the door locked with a key, have the door locked with two keys. Make it clear on checking that the two locking mechanisms are interdependant so you'd have to unlock both at the same time. This will require the party to find at least one key first.

b) Instead of a normal key, use something like an engraved disc that needs to be inserted and rotated to unlock the door. Lockpicking skills won't help for something like that.

c) Let the player notice that the lock has been treated with a corrosive substance. If they try to pick the lock it will dissolve their lockpicks. The key will be made of something that won't be affected.

[Yukitsu]

Or, if you're my players, you'll blast away the wall around the door and push it over.

This was how I learned never to make doors out of anything valuable. :smallsigh:

Fun fact: 90% of my games with DMs who have not DMed for me before result at some point in me stealing all the doors or all the locks.

[FMArthur]

Just don't ever use doors as barriers. They're just not, in D&D. If you want a place that can't be passed without an item, you have to make it so that the "unlocking" mechanism is truly active, rather than just a lock. Usually this means having it alter the environment without being used as a key: like shaping a stone wall in a particular manner, or powering an elevator. Even then it's best to let them figure a way around it - the item ideally is using a spell or activating a spell trap or something, and the players might work out which spell that is. Let them! That's great fun thinking you're getting them to do. Remember that they are fully capable of not seeing the key attached to a body and then dumping it into a vat of acid or something. Key Is Gone is a contingency worth preparing for.

[Sillycomic]

Very true.

One time I was running an easter themed campaign and I had the Big Bad behind a locked door in a dungeon that had several egg shaped inlets.

My players figured out right away that there must be eggs that go with these inlets. So I had my players searching for Easter eggs in the entire dungeon. They knew to go look for these "keys" because the lock was so unique.

Oh, and when they did put all the easter keys into the lock? The door opened to reveal the Big Bad Easter Bunny (BBEB, lol)

One of the best one-shot games I ever ran. I hope to run it again this year.

[Garwain]

You know there is something wrong when you say: "...and then I took away the thiefing tools from the rogue..."
Let's brake the fighter's sword and the bard's instrument while we're at it!

A better solution is to let them open the door, only to find nothing. A blank wall for example (fake door, hehe). Or a leaking steam pipe (find the wheel). Or a set of normal, uninfested, bland looking rooms that did not yet turned into the horror, but will if they trigger something on the other floor.

[Silus]

You know there is something wrong when you say: "...and then I took away the thiefing tools from the rogue..."
Let's brake the fighter's sword and the bard's instrument while we're at it!

A better solution is to let them open the door, only to find nothing. A blank wall for example (fake door, hehe). Or a leaking steam pipe (find the wheel). Or a set of normal, uninfested, bland looking rooms that did not yet turned into the horror, but will if they trigger something on the other floor.

To be honest, I only did that after I had made it pretty clear that the door was not going to open. The rogue kept pressing the issue, so the door ate the tools. If I could do it over, I'd probably throw some alien geometry at him for opening the door out of turn or something. Like he opens the door and sees himself looking back, or the upstairs bedroom connects to the front door or something, then locks behind him after he closes it again.

'Course, this was my first time DMing, and he did split the party in an admitted horror campaign, so I had to penalize him a little (You don't go off on your own in a horror anything. That's just asking for trouble). Either that or throw the Evolved Shadows into play earlier than I had intended.

[Garwain]

Either that or throw the Evolved Shadows into play earlier than I had intended.

That happens. Let them encouter the things, and barely escape by means of a clock that ticks backwards, dragging them back into time so that they know that route is not meant for them yet.

PS: Make a creepy monster attack him with his own thieving tools. It's creepy and he gets his stuff back.

[Silus]

That happens. Let them encouter the things, and barely escape by means of a clock that ticks backwards, dragging them back into time so that they know that route is not meant for them yet.

PS: Make a creepy monster attack him with his own thieving tools. It's creepy and he gets his stuff back.

The way I had wanted to run thing was a slow ramp up. They didn't find anything to fight, let along anything hostile until they all went upstairs and the windows and the front door got all bricked up.

I suppose I could have thrown the girl at him (Like a hybrid mix of a Flesh and a Cadaver golem in the form of a little girl). She DID get out after all...Or maybe the albino (Based off the following creepypasta, which I played almost straight. Scared them pretty good =D)

Creepypasta
A man went to a hotel and walked up to the front desk to check in. The woman at the desk gave him his key and told him that on the way to his room, there was a door with no number that was locked and no one was allowed in there. She explained that it was a storeroom, and that it was out of bounds. She reminded him of this several times before allowing him upstairs. So he followed the instructions of the woman at the front desk, going straight to his room, and going to bed. However the insistence of the woman had piqued his curiosity, so the next night he walked down the hall to the door and tried the handle. Sure enough it was locked. He bent down and looked through the wide keyhole. Cold air passed through it, chilling his eye.
What he saw was a hotel bedroom, like his, and in the corner was a woman whose skin was incredibly pale. She was leaning her head against the wall, facing away from the door. He stared in confusion for a while, was this a celebrity? The owners daughter? He almost knocked on the door, out of curiosity, but decided not to. As he was still looking, the woman turned sharply and he jumped back from the door, hoping she would not suspect he had been spying on her. He crept away from the door and walked back to his room. The next day, he returned to the door and looked through the wide keyhole. This time, all he saw was redness. He couldn’t make anything out besides a distinct red color, unmoving. Perhaps the inhabitants of the room knew he was spying the night before, and had blocked the keyhole with something red. He felt embarrassed that he had made the woman so uncomfortable, and hoped she had not made a complaint with the woman on the front desk.
At this point he decided to consult her for more information. After some gentle quizzing and the promise that the explanation would go no further than him she finally said "Well, I might as well tell you the story of what happened in that room. A long time ago, a man murdered his wife in there, we find that even now, people get uncomfortable staying there. But these people were not ordinary. They were white all over, except for their eyes, which were red."

[Bobikus]

You probably should have talked with the player before hand if you know that he has a habit of such character, and informed him ahead of time that lock picking wasn't going to be a usable tactic in your campaign.

[Tyndmyr]

Fun fact: 90% of my games with DMs who have not DMed for me before result at some point in me stealing all the doors or all the locks.

Yup. Only last session I played, the DM was unaware that a DC 30 lock has a value of 80g. When you're playing at low level, smashing in the doors and taking all the locks can substantially increase your loot.

Oh, I can't wait till I can afford an adamantine weapon.

[Totally Guy]

What value is a locked lock? To have any value at all you need a key too. :smalltongue:

[jseah]

What's with the Blue Cat <> Clue Bat thing?

Tyndmyr:
Thanks, although I'm currently not running any due to time problems.

The downside to running open campaigns is that you often have to get players to come up with a character goal (or give one to them). I sometimes wish I had a player who had his/her own character goal.
Thus, I add in an overall drift to the campaign, like the magical industrial revolution is happening and society is undergoing lots of upheaval.

Another problem is that you have no ability to prevent characters from splitting up. Paladin doesn't like the necromancer? Well, they'll just go their own ways, perhaps even work against each other. I allow that, to be consistent.

And lastly, in 3.5, mundane classes have a tendency to get screwed over unless they have magical help. Too many things can only be explained by magic.