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PhallicWarrior
2011-03-16, 05:43 PM
And if so, is it a good system? My FLGS has a few copies, and I was wondering if it'd be a good idea to pick it up?

shiram
2011-03-17, 11:21 AM
And if so, is it a good system? My FLGS has a few copies, and I was wondering if it'd be a good idea to pick it up?

I've been playing it for a while now, and I also had no prior knowledge of the Warhammer universe.
It is a pretty harsh system, combat is tough, and injuries frequent. It is a ton of fun to play though. I like the % dice rolls, though they can be all over the place, it brings much more randomness than the d20 systems.

Also the way you level is by spending exp to gain abilities, talents and skills, interesting stuff there too.

king.com
2011-03-17, 05:52 PM
Fantastic system to play around with, just don't treat it like dnd. Its broken into 3 aspects, investigation, horror and action. Combat is very dangerous and low level Dark Heresy characters are more likely to fail at anything they try (even at max level they have a chance of failure). Characters are weak, unskilled, and have no money against all the genetic super soldiers, traitors and horrors the warp has to throw at you.

I enjoy it but its definitely not for , I would recommend you get the premade adventure (i think its free on their website) and have a play around with it. Its not a complete representation of the game but not a bad look at the system.

Lycan 01
2011-03-17, 07:14 PM
Pick up "Eisenhorn" by Dan Abnett at your local bookstore first. Its a collection of books about an Inquisitor and his Acolytes. If you don't know anything about Dark Heresy or Warhammer 40,000, then you need to read that book. It pretty much explains everything you'll need to know - how the 40K setting works, what sort of experiences you can expect as a player, and plenty of plot ideas and examples as a GM.

Dark Heresy is a fun system, but you need to know what you're getting into first. It took me awhile to get the hang of the setting and system. If I'd read Eisenhorn first, I'd have gotten accommodated to the game much faster... Plus, its an amazing collection of stories. :smalltongue:

MickJay
2011-03-17, 08:59 PM
Then there's the other Inquisition series, Ravenor, by the same author.

As for the system, it requires some houseruling, since a lot of things in it are broken, or simply don't make any sense (some of the errors and ambiguities have been corrected in the errata, which is available online, but some problems remain). On the other hand, the system itself is fairly simple, and it's very difficult to "screw up" a character build, since you cay always purchase the skills, talents and characteristic increases you need later.

Leon
2011-03-18, 03:52 AM
Its a Fantastic system - combat is dangerous as it should be, not the mass of ablative HP that D&D typically have and you will want to pick your fights and make sure you have the advantage where possible.

You get to play with a interesting mix of classes that you can adapt somewhat to practically what ever you want to play.


Just don't mess with Valkyrie Dropships...

Surrealistik
2011-03-18, 07:40 AM
Psykers are ridiculously broken; tolerable at lower ranks, 3.5 Wizard overpowered at higher ones. Otherwise a great, if unforgiving system.

And yes, constant failure is ubiquitous at the lower ranks.

Gaius Marius
2011-03-18, 09:52 AM
Very enjoyable system, but keep an open mind as a GM to bend the rules. This kind of system is very easy to tweak here and there as you see fit to satisfy your player's desires, as long as you are reasonnable about it.

I had 2 house rules:

1- No limit on modifiers to roll. So you could end up with +120% on your Ballistic Roll check if you surprised the ennemy, aimed for 2 rounds, had a Supreme Sniper Rifle, etc.. etc...

2- In order to make rolling still relevant after rule 1, I made the combat more lethal. For every 20% below your success rate, you can roll another die for damage, but you keep the best. So if you roll 21% below the required WS check, you roll 1 more D10, and you keep the best.

If you roll 41% below, you roll 3d10, and you keep the best.

etc.. etc... that could mount up to very, very, very lethal combat very quickly, since Righetous Fury would keep these bonus dice.

Made combat quicker, messier, and my players would be careful about tactical advantages at all time, 'cause that +20% modifier made all the difference.

MickJay
2011-03-18, 02:44 PM
How did you reconcile that with the updated Accurate weapon property? While using Basic Accurate weapons, after taking an Aim half- or full action, you gain an additional 1d10 to damage per 2 degrees of success, up to two dice; these don't count towards RF.

Gaius Marius
2011-03-18, 03:23 PM
How did you reconcile that with the updated Accurate weapon property? While using Basic Accurate weapons, after taking an Aim half- or full action, you gain an additional 1d10 to damage per 2 degrees of success, up to two dice; these don't count towards RF.

these additional 1d10 of damage are in addition, right?

The d10s I throw I merely substitutes. You have the basic D10 to throw, with the extra you gain from rolling good.

And then you roll the extra d10.


A player came up to me asking what to do for the shotgun, as they already had the rule about "an extra d10 for every 20% of success, take the best". I simply ruled that, combined, it meant an extra d10 for every 10% of success, take the best.

Yes, sneak-attack-shotguns are powerful. They are meant to be :smallbiggrin:

And then the same player came up to me what's gonna happen for an auto-shotgun. I walloped him in the face. :smallcool:

profitofrage
2011-03-19, 07:06 AM
Its the only system I play. I have yet to find anything severly wrong with it. Every class has its place and every skill has its use. The game depends far more on the GM doing a good job since the setting is crucial to how alot of the mechanics work.

EDIT:
Dont play ascension most if not all issues are solved just by avoiding that suppliment.

Slade
2011-04-10, 03:49 PM
My 2 thrones:

The system is crud, without gaming the system your character is crud.

That said of the 3 big flag ship titles, Deathwatch is the worst of them.
Not because your space marines, which are FRIKKEN awesome,
but because your, well, a deathwatch kill team.
Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this. Go here, kill that. Go there, kill this...................................

This is all you do. Ever. If you do anything else, you are drifting away from what a Kill team does.

The best one? Rouge Trader. Why? Because you can do... ANYTHING. Everything is fair game, and no one can (legally) stop you. It is freedom personified.
The official song of Rouge Trader:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8F3UE9qFsg

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-10, 03:51 PM
without gaming the system your character is crud.

:smallamused: In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only people who actually get hurt when you shoot them, instead of taking a 1d6 damage scratch.

Slade
2011-04-10, 04:05 PM
:smallamused: In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only people who actually get hurt when you shoot them, instead of taking a 1d6 damage scratch.

Getting hurt? That is the LEAST if my problems.

Oh no, in the Grim Dark blah blah blah, there are horribly incompetent people how have no business holding the business end of lasgun. Or is it lasrifle? I forget which.

Anyways, a 40% hit rate is a horribly incompetent solider with no business on the battlefield, let alone an Inquisitor's Retinue. Christ, even Star Wars stormtroopers have a better hit rate (though, not by much).

At least the Adepts have a reason to be physically and schoalstically incompetent, a Guardsman doesn't.

Psykers may explode at any moment or if they are lucky, only summon a demon.

Scum at least have a reason to suck (they are Scum. Duh.) Though they come from such a crappy background, why play one?

Assassins are right scary in melee. Huh, melee in a game with deadly firearms? Who woulda thunk it.

And don't get me started on the frikken admech boys. Everyone else is a squishy meat bag, and you have frikken robocop. Wut?

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-10, 04:06 PM
Dude, if you wanted a game with reliable shootyness, why are you playing a 40k game?

This is the setting that gave us the quotation, "DRIVE ME CLOSER, I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD!"

Slade
2011-04-10, 05:41 PM
Dude, if you wanted a game with reliable shootyness, why are you playing a 40k game?

This is the setting that gave us the quotation, "DRIVE ME CLOSER, I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD!"

Oh god, my sides, they hurt from laughing so much. Commisar Dan is my hero.

The Glyphstone
2011-04-10, 06:00 PM
Dude, if you wanted a game with reliable shootyness, why are you playing a 40k game?

This is the setting that gave us the quotation, "DRIVE ME CLOSER, I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD!"

Indeed...in Dark Heresy, of course you suck. You suck slightly less than the shmucks who weren't picked by an Inquisitor to be their lackeys, but you still suck. Rogue Traders are rich, so they can hire the people who suck even less than the Throne Acolytes (but they still suck, because they're humans in 40K). Space Marines hit things and kill them, and definitely do not suck...but you don't like Deathwatch because it involves hitting and killing things. Wut.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-10, 06:03 PM
Yeah, sucking is a very big part of DH. That's why one of the things I loved about Blood of Martyrs was that they included a named Lord of Change with all the stats.

I looked at the profile for a second and started laughing. A single Khornate Bloodletter and his sucky cultists makes for a very fighty boss battle.

A Lord of Change, well, that's just silly. Something like that will literally end your characters before you can hit him.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-04-10, 06:14 PM
Pick up "Eisenhorn" by Dan Abnett at your local bookstore first. Its a collection of books about an Inquisitor and his Acolytes. If you don't know anything about Dark Heresy or Warhammer 40,000, then you need to read that book. It pretty much explains everything you'll need to know - how the 40K setting works, what sort of experiences you can expect as a player, and plenty of plot ideas and examples as a GM.

Dark Heresy is a fun system, but you need to know what you're getting into first. It took me awhile to get the hang of the setting and system. If I'd read Eisenhorn first, I'd have gotten accommodated to the game much faster... Plus, its an amazing collection of stories. :smalltongue:

There's also the "official" Dark Heresy trilogy (third book isn't out yet) by Sandy Mitchell, starting with Scourge the Heretic. They're pretty entertaining, but not as good as Eisonhorn and Ravenor.

But, yes, Dark Heresy is great. Great use of the setting, fun combat, and really awesome critical tables.

Oh, and if the psyker tries to use their powers, shoot them. It's for your own good.

Slade
2011-04-10, 06:49 PM
Space Marines hit things and kill them, and definitely do not suck...but you don't like Deathwatch because it involves hitting and killing things. Wut.

You misunderstand. Space Marines hit and kill thigns... AND NOTHING ELSE. No RP, no schemeing, no nothing. You just kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill......

And do nothing else. Whatsoever. That might make for wonderful rts or fps or even a board game or table top game (cough cough)... but an RPG? No thanks. Give me a rouge trader any day.

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 06:51 PM
Yeah, sucking is a very big part of DH. That's why one of the things I loved about Blood of Martyrs was that they included a named Lord of Change with all the stats.

I looked at the profile for a second and started laughing. A single Khornate Bloodletter and his sucky cultists makes for a very fighty boss battle.

A Lord of Change, well, that's just silly. Something like that will literally end your characters before you can hit him.

Unless of course you're a pimped out Ascension Psyker, in which case you will kill the Lord of Change several times over before he even gets a chance to act.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-10, 06:53 PM
Unless of course you're a pimped out Ascension Psyker, in which case you will kill the Lord of Change several times over before he even gets a chance to act.

Naturally.

I think the Sisters can also do some heavy damage with the anti-corruption faith power.

Slade
2011-04-10, 06:56 PM
Naturally.

I think the Sisters can also do some heavy damage with the anti-corruption faith power.

I remeber the sisters. We had pc one in the group and she was pretty cool. Their faith powers are pretty cool without being op.

The Glyphstone
2011-04-10, 06:59 PM
You misunderstand. Space Marines hit and kill thigns... AND NOTHING ELSE. No RP, no schemeing, no nothing. You just kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill......

And do nothing else. Whatsoever. That might make for wonderful rts or fps or even a board game or table top game (cough cough)... but an RPG? No thanks. Give me a rouge trader any day.

No RP? You're playing with the wrong DW group; half of our sessions are RP without any dice being thrown. Particularly with a Black Templar, a Librarian, a Dark Angel, and a Space Wolf working together - half of TEP1 was diplomacy, bargaining, and showing off to the locals (the rest was murderizing genestealers and wrestling tyrannosaurs naked).

No scheming? Only if you mean interparty scheming...our group ended part 1 of The Emperor Protects by basically flat-out lying to the Imperial Guard and saying Aurum needed to be quarantined by Space Marines for a bit of time; we did so to buy our Black Templar time to send back to his Chapter that our kill-team had found a planet chock full of utter badasses who were perfect Space Marine recruits, and totally wasted in the Guard ranks.

No nothing?...see 1 and 2. Deathwatch Marines roflstomp anything that isn't as awesome as they are, and usually even then, but the game has plenty of room for noncombat activities even if you choose not to make use of them.

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 09:07 PM
Unless of course you're a pimped out Ascension Psyker, in which case you will kill the Lord of Change several times over before he even gets a chance to act.

The whole point of a Lord of Change is that he has plans...plans that crap over your plans...Plans that cause your puny psyker to walk into the room with his 30+ initiative only to use it to see a small rat scurry past and knaw on a trip wire...that causes a series of dominos to fall down...that cause a ball to roll..that defies gravity and rolls along the gutters in the cieling...which knocks over an exact replica of the psyker made of wood, which falls and pokes him in the eye. Giving the lord of change just enough time to trick the ships in orbit to fire on his position....yes....all according to plan...

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-10, 09:09 PM
Which reminds me, are there stats for any of the other Greater Daemons? I'd think the Bloodthirster would be even more of a horrid fight.

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 09:17 PM
Not as of yet, though I do hope that if they were to go into that they do it much better then they have already. The Lord of Change they did stat...in my opinion is horribly inappropriete. DH, RT and DW have always been about keeping closer to fluff then the boardgame..and I do not see at all that the Lord of Change in acsension matches the fluff. This beast should be capable of tearing open Dreadnaughts...causing whole worlds to burn....I doubt very much that it would have such a small willpower.
Theres also the point that ascension is a broken and generally horrible game because they think psykers should become alpha grade the second they level up..so that might have something to do with it.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-10, 09:21 PM
Isn't the Lord of Change from BoM? The named one, Marabas. I don't remember one in Ascension.

tyckspoon
2011-04-10, 09:29 PM
Anyways, a 40% hit rate is a horribly incompetent solider with no business on the battlefield, let alone an Inquisitor's Retinue. Christ, even Star Wars stormtroopers have a better hit rate (though, not by much).

I'm pretty sure that's actually well above the documented hit rate for people engaged in a real gun battle.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-10, 09:30 PM
Not to mention that the average Ork's hit to bullet ratio is approximately 1:100.

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 09:36 PM
Not as of yet, though I do hope that if they were to go into that they do it much better then they have already. The Lord of Change they did stat...in my opinion is horribly inappropriete. DH, RT and DW have always been about keeping closer to fluff then the boardgame..and I do not see at all that the Lord of Change in acsension matches the fluff. This beast should be capable of tearing open Dreadnaughts...causing whole worlds to burn....I doubt very much that it would have such a small willpower.
Theres also the point that ascension is a broken and generally horrible game because they think psykers should become alpha grade the second they level up..so that might have something to do with it.

It can do everything you describe. It has an extremely high Psi rating, draws overbleed from Phenomena, and has access to every Power and Sorcery in the game, including Ascension ones (certain anti-daemonic powers excepted), and can summon legions of lesser daemons. That it can't beat an Ascension Psyker (no shame in that) in a straight up slugfest doesn't mean that it can't lay waste to a Dreadnought with ease, or bring about the subjugation and corruption of a world. Also its Willpower is actually pretty incredible, and that 99 Unnatural 3 Int means it will nearly always be at least one step ahead of the PCs.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-04-10, 09:49 PM
Isn't the Lord of Change from BoM? The named one, Marabas. I don't remember one in Ascension.

Nope, he's in Ascension. And there's also stats for a Herald of Khorne (a greater daemon) in there.

Also, I'm pretty sure Marabas will kill a Primaris psyker, unless you're looking at some sort of exploit. He's better at it then you are, has sorcery, and is far, far more intelligent then you.

And on that last note, even if you kill him, he probably planned for that.

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 09:51 PM
Nope, he's in Ascension. And there's also stats for a Herald of Khorne (a greater daemon) in there.

Also, I'm pretty sure Marabas will kill a Primaris psyker, unless you're looking at some sort of exploit. He's better at it then you are, has sorcery, and is far, far more intelligent then you.

And on that last note, even if you kill him, he probably planned for that.

Naw; 90 WP, 3x Unnatural WP Force Barrage + Preternatural Awareness is basically an instant win against Marabas.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-10, 09:53 PM
Also, I'm pretty sure Marabas will kill a Primaris psyker, unless you're looking at some sort of exploit. He's better at it then you are, has sorcery, and is far, far more intelligent then you.

Like Surrealistik points out quite succinctly in his post above mine, Ascension is generally hated for being broken as all hell.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-04-10, 10:05 PM
Naw; 90 WP, 3x Unnatural WP Force Barrage + Preternatural Awareness is basically an instant win against Marabas.

I know that you can pull some incredibly broken stuff like that, but Marabas can do the exact same thing. And he has a higher Psi Rating then you. This predicates you getting the drop on him, which is not a fair assumption to make.

And how are you getting 90 Willpower? :smallconfused:

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 10:22 PM
I know that you can pull some incredibly broken stuff like that, but Marabas can do the exact same thing. And he has a higher Psi Rating then you. This predicates you getting the drop on him, which is not a fair assumption to make.

And how are you getting 90 Willpower? :smallconfused:

He does not have a higher Psy Rating than you, and your WP bonus is substantially larger than his, so you will always go first, and you will vaporize him before he can act.

20 (base) + 30 (Darkholder) + 20 (Upgrades) + Living nightmare (5) = 75 Willpower, then add your Ascension WP advances.

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 10:32 PM
HEY wow wait a minute. Whats this Dark holder thing? Ill admit im not totally aware of acension but that doesnt sound right at all. Do other backgrounds randomly dish out +30 bonuses?

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 10:35 PM
HEY wow wait a minute. Whats this Dark holder thing? Ill admit im not totally aware of acension but that doesnt sound right at all. Do other backgrounds randomly dish out +30 bonuses?

Darkholder is in the Radical's Handbook, and is a sub-'homeworld' of the Void Born, and I'm sure there are.

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 10:38 PM
Um...im reading Darkholder right now...and I see a +5 advance to willpower...not 30?

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 10:40 PM
Um...im reading Darkholder right now...and I see a +5 advance to willpower...not 30?

Base WP stat for a Darkholder is 25, +5 = 30.

The Glyphstone
2011-04-10, 10:46 PM
So you need to roll at least one 20 on 2d10*6 during chargen to get the 75WP, then.

Marabas is still a punk.

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 10:47 PM
Well then your calculations are off.

You had 20 (base) + 30 Darkholder e.t.c
Either you counted the base TWICE...or what im assuming happened is you wrongly assumed they rolled full WP on there 2D10. It should instead be 10 (as in the average) reducing there total WP to 65 not 75.

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 10:52 PM
Well then your calculations are off.

You had 20 (base) + 30 Darkholder e.t.c
Either you counted the base TWICE...or what im assuming happened is you wrongly assumed they rolled full WP on there 2D10. It should instead be 10 (as in the average) reducing there total WP to 65 not 75.

Perhaps that isn't the most intuitive way of breaking it down (I copy/pasted from Ranos' earlier breakdown), but it is accurate.

You have a base of 20 + 5 (Void Born) + 5 (Darkholder) + 20 (Rolls/Point Buy).

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 11:08 PM
Ah true there is always point buy. I forget that people do use Point buy in DH simply because I never use it. Personally I think allowing Point buy is just encouraging players to optimise rather then make a character.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-10, 11:12 PM
Ah true there is always point buy. I forget that people do use Point buy in DH simply because I never use it. Personally I think allowing Point buy is just encouraging players to optimise rather then make a character.

Dude dude don't open that can of worms here, haha

The Glyphstone
2011-04-10, 11:13 PM
Well then your calculations are off.

You had 20 (base) + 30 Darkholder e.t.c
Either you counted the base TWICE...or what im assuming happened is you wrongly assumed they rolled full WP on there 2D10. It should instead be 10 (as in the average) reducing there total WP to 65 not 75.

technically, the average of 2d10 is 11, not 10.
[/pedant]

And with the 'swap any two stats, re-roll one stat' - it's fair to assume they get at least a 15 in WP, though 20 is pushing it.

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 11:29 PM
Dude dude don't open that can of worms here, haha

Old Imperial Guard Veteran: "Can o' worms...CAN O WORMS?! Back in MY day opening a can of worms was called LUNCHTIME..you recruits these days dont know how lucky you got it...I remember fighting against Orcs covered in armor and spiky helmets...You lot get to fight em wearing nothing but OVERALLS!"


But seriously, Why not open up that can of worms? I personally dislike point buy. If I absolutly had to babysit my players id let them arrange what they rolled to the stats they wanted..but point buy?....I mean in D&D sure..that games all about optimisation and not being useless (I am totally and completly talking out my ass on this...since ive never so much as looked at a single book of D&D). But DH has options for everyone.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-10, 11:34 PM
No, no, not the point-buy versus rollin' can, the "effective character sheets vs. good characters" can, hehe

Leon
2011-04-10, 11:40 PM
You misunderstand. Space Marines hit and kill thigns... AND NOTHING ELSE. No RP, no schemeing, no nothing. You just kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill......


If you are looking for a game where Space marines engage in High Tea & polite conversation i suggest looking elsewhere - This is a game that is about Killing Xenos Things with Big Armored Super Humans.

Yuki Akuma
2011-04-11, 07:12 AM
But seriously, Why not open up that can of worms? I personally dislike point buy. If I absolutly had to babysit my players id let them arrange what they rolled to the stats they wanted..but point buy?....I mean in D&D sure..that games all about optimisation and not being useless (I am totally and completly talking out my ass on this...since ive never so much as looked at a single book of D&D). But DH has options for everyone.

"Effective character means bad roleplayed character" is a horrible fallacy that insults every single person on this board who likes to play effectively.

That's the can of worms. Don't open it.

profitofrage
2011-04-11, 07:40 AM
"Effective character means bad roleplayed character" is a horrible fallacy that insults every single person on this board who likes to play effectively.

That's the can of worms. Don't open it.

No no see what I mean is that a character in DH can be effective in so many ways I dont see the need for a point buy unless you want to be overly effective in one thing (optimisation?)

Mr.Bookworm
2011-04-11, 07:46 AM
So you need to roll at least one 20 on 2d10*6 during chargen to get the 75WP, then.

Marabas is still a punk.

Yes, he's a total punk because a max level psyker using a obscure homeworld (and Living Nightmare, which I have no idea what that is) with max stats using probably the most broken power in the game can kill him. Totally. :smalltongue:

But, yes, I'll concede the point. Still probably his plan if you kill him, though.

Yuki Akuma
2011-04-11, 08:19 AM
No no see what I mean is that a character in DH can be effective in so many ways I dont see the need for a point buy unless you want to be overly effective in one thing (optimisation?)

Sure.

But see the thing is just because someone over optimises their character it doesn't mean they're not playing a well-rounded personality.

profitofrage
2011-04-11, 08:37 AM
Thats true but I still dont see the need for it. Especially since DH optimisation involves taking background packages that imply sometimes strongly the sort of character you should be playing. So for every bit of optimisation theres that little bit of "character" there effectivly giving up in favor of the prewritten backgrounds (although most of those background ideas are infact...awesome)
I suppose in the end I see optimisation as needless in DH and so why encourage it with a point buy? since although optimisation doesnt = bad characters it certainly doesnt encourage good ones, where as i think random stats does. Its mostly an opinion thing and by all means not the rule.


Also...we all know theres only one mortal capable of besting any Lord of Change in terms of planning...and thats one tactical genious by the name of Leman Russ Battle tank.


huh? that was wierd i was meant to say....huh..WAIT!...CREEEEEEEED!

Leon
2011-04-11, 08:50 AM
No no see what I mean is that a character in DH can be effective in so many ways I dont see the need for a point buy unless you want to be overly effective in one thing (optimisation?)

There is creating a effective character and then the next step is optimization which is often unneeded and over hyped.

The Glyphstone
2011-04-11, 09:05 AM
Optimizing is being good at something. Min-maxing is being good at something to the exclusion of everything else.

Surrealistik
2011-04-11, 09:17 AM
Yes, he's a total punk because a max level psyker using a obscure homeworld (and Living Nightmare, which I have no idea what that is) with max stats using probably the most broken power in the game can kill him. Totally. :smalltongue:

But, yes, I'll concede the point. Still probably his plan if you kill him, though.

You don't need max stats; it just makes your vulgar display of power that much more awesome.

Lycan 01
2011-04-13, 02:19 PM
Of course, a lot of this is still up the GM. He can always so now to taking those background packages, and prevent the player from powergaming like that.

And also, if a frickin' Lord of Change has materialized, then the Warp in that area will be very unstable. At best, Psychic Phenomenon will be happening on every 7+ roll, as per the effect of "Weaken the Veil." At worst, then every power the Psyker uses will cause a Psychic Phenomenon or worse. Plus, its a Lord of Change - masters of Sorcery and the changing nature of the Warp. The GM could reasonably give it some cheap Psychic Resistance boosts or straight up immunity to certain Psyker powers. And also, they can't be permanently killed! One of the Grey Knights - Brother Captain Stern, IIRC - has been fighting and killing the same Lord of Change for centuries, in a sick game of cat and mouse orchestrated by said Lord of Change. I mean, beyond finding some way to Bind him or permanently Banish him, there's no real way to actually stop its plans by directly "killing" it...

Plus, if Psykers are so broken, the GM can always just ban them. :smalltongue:

Ranos
2011-04-13, 02:56 PM
Well, Marabas has every psyker and sorcery power available, so he can use Weaken Veil if he wants to. On the other hand, Holocaust, a power available to normal DH psykers, can explicitly kill anything, including daemons, forever. I'm sure Ascended psykers must have a few more ways to do that too.


Plus, if Psykers are so broken, the GM can always just ban them.
I'd say this is the way to go. Ban the psyker class. If you still want to play a psyker, you can go Hive Mutant with the Wyrdling mutation, or go Wyrd, or mid-rank Adept, or make a sorcerer, or hell even use spook, or a combination of the above. Those work perfectly fine without being psyker-broken.

Unlike in D&D where getting rid of magic users wrecks the game, psykers are not necessary to a DH cell.

Ceridan
2011-04-13, 09:33 PM
Psykers can be dangerous, very dangerous, but the psychic phenomena and perils of the warp make them at least think twice before they use their powers. Sure they can, at higher levels find ways and talents to diminish that to a degree, but still one bad roll can kill the psyker, or at least soak up their Fate pool. That said, DH is generally an undercover, behind the scenes of society, at least to the common masses, investigations game. Psykers should be using their power sparingly and cleverly, not throwing lightning where everyone can see.

As a GM, there are other ways to minimize them if the story calls for it. Nulls, puritan witch hunters and other psykers for instance. A good GM can role with the punches and should be able to handle it. Psykers are part of the fabric of the grimdark universe of the far future. Stripping them out is a disservice to the setting in my opinion. If your party Psyker is getting too big for his britches just use the setting. Angry mobs with burning sticks and large stones should put him/her back on the path of the straight and narrow, or into an early grave.

Ranos
2011-04-14, 05:58 AM
Oh, I wouldn't dream of removing psykers from the setting. They would become the thing to fear. A single psyker at the cell's rank could make for an incredibly dangerous antagonist.

We've had a few threads about minimizing the psyker's power, and no, there's nothing you can do that will make a psyker remotely balanced, short of houseruling the hell out of the class. I won't extrapolate on that in here, since the threads are probably still on page 1.

MickJay
2011-04-14, 06:00 AM
Sure they can, at higher levels find ways and talents to diminish that to a degree, but still one bad roll can kill the psyker, or at least soak up their Fate pool.

Speaking of which, we recently had a discussion on the forum about how Fate points can only be used to reroll tests; things like rolling for Phenomena, Perils, Malignancy tests, rolling on mutation table - they're not tests, so can't be rerolled.

profitofrage
2011-04-14, 06:18 AM
Weve made some fairly large leaps and bounds in terms of the houseruling.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191717
The "overpowering psyker" Stems from lack of wording in some key powers, with several easy balances they end up just really versatile party members (there purpose) of the party.

king.com
2011-04-14, 07:21 AM
I personally, even using the psykers to their fullest degree dont see them as being anything too powerful beyond other characters. Sisters of Battle, combined with their serious free gear AND faith powers put them to shame along with the Scum class being easily the most useful (you make it a Noble scum and they kinda humiliate the rest of the party).

Lycan 01
2011-04-14, 11:41 AM
Truth be told, my favorite class is the Adept. Cripplingly squishy, but I just enjoy being a walking library and playing a key role in the investigation aspect of the game. Plus, I can become a Psyker later on if I so choose, and without that nasty Sanctioning process. :smalltongue:

Lord Herman
2011-04-14, 01:29 PM
I hear people saying the Ascension supplement should be avoided at all costs. Why exactly? I like the idea of the characters eventually growing beyond the position of Acolyte and becoming Inquisitors and the like, but I take it this isn't handled very well in Ascension?

MickJay
2011-04-14, 01:39 PM
I hear people saying the Ascension supplement should be avoided at all costs. Why exactly? I like the idea of the characters eventually growing beyond the position of Acolyte and becoming Inquisitors and the like, but I take it this isn't handled very well in Ascension?

Many of the powers are broken. Fairly weak Adeptus Arbites learns to be so commanding and awesome that everyone has to obey their orders, and they can pick a talent which makes heretics even more susceptible to those orders than loyal citizens already are. An assassin can dodge pretty much anything short of a nuclear blast multiple times per turn (and some would argue that yes, he can dodge anything, including nuclear blasts). Psykers can more or less think people out of existence with their powers (and this is a very small exagerration).

king.com
2011-04-15, 06:56 AM
Many of the powers are broken. Fairly weak Adeptus Arbites learns to be so commanding and awesome that everyone has to obey their orders, and they can pick a talent which makes heretics even more susceptible to those orders than loyal citizens already are. An assassin can dodge pretty much anything short of a nuclear blast multiple times per turn (and some would argue that yes, he can dodge anything, including nuclear blasts). Psykers can more or less think people out of existence with their powers (and this is a very small exagerration).

Some people say that but I disagree to avoiding it (a GM should always have this thing out and refer to it in sesssion simply as a freak out tool :smalltongue:). The idea is, that you have hit a level where it is no longer a battle of individuals and it has become a battle of resources. Take a look at the skill lists for these Ascension classes. They are mostly reputation and relationship based, this is basiclly how you acquire openings to gain more allies as your opposition probably has many. I found classes like the Vindicare, Storm Trooper, and combat focused psykers particularly weak. They have little to no way of actually interacting with organisations outside of their comfort zone. Classes like the Sage, Magos, Interrogator however get to build some fairly strong alliances which can be used as their weapons.

Take the scenario of your players going up against a radical inquisitor going over the line into heresy. Hes likely to be able to draw upon groups like the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy in order to impede your path while your own players will need to pull similiar contacts in order to keep up. Stopping someone with this kind of resources is going to be very difficult if he knows your coming, meaning its less about finding him, and more about cutting his resources down until he cant stop hiding anymore. A demonic cult he rules over? You use your Oath Bonded to the Angels of Death talent to clean out before it requires the players themselves to actually physically deal with. Imperial Navy Admiral pulling forces to the Jericho reach leaving a sub-sector exposed for the radical Inquisitor to get in and out without report? Counter without your alliances with the Navis-Nobilite house who can help enforce that these ships remain in orbit for a time, giving your players that small opportunity to actually intercept the radical or atleast stop him getting what he was after here in the first place.

Thats how I've always seen Ascension to be run.

WitchSlayer
2011-04-15, 04:23 PM
Some people say that but I disagree to avoiding it (a GM should always have this thing out and refer to it in sesssion simply as a freak out tool :smalltongue:). The idea is, that you have hit a level where it is no longer a battle of individuals and it has become a battle of resources. Take a look at the skill lists for these Ascension classes. They are mostly reputation and relationship based, this is basiclly how you acquire openings to gain more allies as your opposition probably has many. I found classes like the Vindicare, Storm Trooper, and combat focused psykers particularly weak. They have little to no way of actually interacting with organisations outside of their comfort zone. Classes like the Sage, Magos, Interrogator however get to build some fairly strong alliances which can be used as their weapons.

Clipped

Thats how I've always seen Ascension to be run.

The problem with Magos is that you have to have 50 fellowship to get most of those alliance things.

Now I don't know about my fellow tech priests, but MY tech priest will probably never be able to get up that far.

Ranos
2011-04-15, 05:08 PM
The problem with Magos is that you have to have 50 fellowship to get most of those alliance things.

Now I don't know about my fellow tech priests, but MY tech priest will probably never be able to get up that far.

I'm not sure it's even possible at all.

Surrealistik
2011-04-15, 05:11 PM
I personally, even using the psykers to their fullest degree dont see them as being anything too powerful beyond other characters. Sisters of Battle, combined with their serious free gear AND faith powers put them to shame along with the Scum class being easily the most useful (you make it a Noble scum and they kinda humiliate the rest of the party).

At Psi 4 + Favoured of the Warp and beyond this is simply and grossly untrue.


Some people say that but I disagree to avoiding it (a GM should always have this thing out and refer to it in sesssion simply as a freak out tool :smalltongue:). The idea is, that you have hit a level where it is no longer a battle of individuals and it has become a battle of resources. Take a look at the skill lists for these Ascension classes. They are mostly reputation and relationship based, this is basiclly how you acquire openings to gain more allies as your opposition probably has many. I found classes like the Vindicare, Storm Trooper, and combat focused psykers particularly weak. They have little to no way of actually interacting with organisations outside of their comfort zone. Classes like the Sage, Magos, Interrogator however get to build some fairly strong alliances which can be used as their weapons.

It's trivial to build a 'batman' Psyker that is overwhelmingly good at just about everything and therefore completely broken.

king.com
2011-04-15, 11:31 PM
At Psi 4 + Favoured of the Warp and beyond this is simply and grossly untrue.

It's trivial to build a 'batman' Psyker that is overwhelmingly good at just about everything and therefore completely broken.

Your requirements for doing this are:
Getting a good willpower (you roll them down the list so your depended on one good roll or one reroll to get the stat you need). Means your most likely to start with something like 11 (average of 2 d10s) + origin, so either void born for + 5, +5 for Living Nightmare (which is a fantastic way to completely screw with the character as a GM). Leaving you with something like 41 Wp Average. Maxing it out to a bonus of 6.

Then the amount of xp you need to spend to achieve psi-rating 4 + FotW

Sanctionite - 500
Neonate - 500
Aspirant - 1000
Scholar Materium - 1000
Scholar Medicae - 2000
Scholar Arcanum - 200 (for FotW)

Thats a long way from starting character. So lets go complete fastest way there ok? Tell me if im doing it wrong.

Priority is getting Wp bonus highest as possible first for the Psy Rating number of powers.
Then buying as many necssary powers as possible.


Sanctionite + Neonate + Aspirant (2000 XP)
Wp Advance 1st - 100
Wp Advance 2nd - 250
Wp Advance 3rd - 500
Wp Advance 4th - 750
Psy Rating 2 - 200
Dodge - 100
Minor Psychic Power - 100

Scholar Materium (1000 XP)
Psy Rating 3 - 200
Psychic Power - 200
Power Well - 200
Psyniscience + 10 - 100
Inovcation + 10 - 100
Awareness - 100
Awareness + 10 - 100

Scholar Medicae - (2000 XP)
Psy Rating 4 - 200
Discipline Focus - 200
Psychic Power - 100
Psychic Power - 100
Jaded - 100

Heres the point you get some spending, things like dropping 500xp into agility if your bonus can go up, 300 xp for medicae + 10 and master Chirugen, getting your intelligence or perception to +15. Something up to personal tastes/stats in that last 1300xp

Then you get Favoured by the warp when you hit 6200 XP.


Your result is 12 Minor Powers (you can easily get more but I think 12 is the right number to get everything you really want).
Either 2 Displices and 5 Powers or 1 Discipline and 8 powers.

So apparently this makes him stupidly broken.

Lets go with the assumption you want to make him a batman psyker so we split the disciplines into Telepathy and Telekinesis .

Minor Powers chosen- Call Item (anti-get captured power), Distort Vision, Healer, Precognition (with only basicy dodge and likely bad agility you really need this up), Lucky, Knack (for the +10 and reroll combo), Sense Presence, Unnatural Aim (since your likely to suck at shooting), Weapon Jinx, Flash Bang, Fearful Aura, Inspiring Aura (the last 3 are my personal but require the party to either run or be aware you can help it out since with fear tests, your likely to be one of the few people stading)

Telepathy -Mind Scan, Dominate, Telepathy
Telekinetics - Force Barrage, Catch Projectiles

So lets see how this works for combat
-Psyker with 60 Wp using Force Barrage (say the Discipline focus for the Telekinetics)
Meaning he needs a 12 (6 wp bonus + 1 power well + 2 discipline focus) for it to go off. You want to invocate to get that bonus up to 12, that means the enemy is going first or he can take the test flat.

Hes probably got an Ag Bonus of 3 so hes getting a 4-13 intiative, probably equal to the average opponent at lower levels but given this is a mid levle game its likely atleast something against the party is going on Ag Bonus 4 or even outpacing the party's assassin. A couple of arco flagellants could do this no problem.

So the psyker goes first (good intiative roll) not wanting to invocate because the 2 arco flagellants are barreling down on them. He needs a 12, a success will result in 6, 1d10+6 bolts. He might want to really kill them so he pops 3 dice into that power roll, still a potential fail but statisticlly a pass. Lets say he gets it, no overbleed.
6 1d10+6 right.
I used the dnd roller and got these as the dice rolls: 5,4,10,8,7,4 Definitely a nice roll.

So hes doing 11, 10, 16, 14, 13, 10 damage base.
Against the Flagellant -armour(3) and toughness(8) he did: 0, 0, 5, 3, 2, 0 Damage.

He then does, 14, 3, 2 Damage (10 total).

Next turn (party magically kills one of them lets pretend for simplicities sake)
Arco-flagellant charges the psyker and with its 4 attacks, is going to hit 2.

Psyker going to have like a 30% chance to dodge, lets pretend he makes it.
Psyker takes 1d10+14 Tearing damage (Chain Axe), given he probably has a TB of 3, maybe mesh armour given his income if hes lucky.
So he reduces 5 damage, meaning he has to take 1d10+9 wounds. Minimum damage is going to put him on low, probably the crit table. Either way hes not in great shape.

This is simply the example that jumped into my head after my party of the same xp went up against. Lets just have a look at the points of failure.

The power doesn't go off. -Can be easily migitated by putting another dice in but it then makes the next point a higher probability
The power rolls result in a 9. - Migitated by Favoured by the warp but still potential damage to be caused.
The damage is low. - As seen above, again, requires more dice and more overbleed.
The psyker fails to dodge. - Statistically the psyker fails dodging since he never gets +20 dodge.

Similiar take some completely unoptimized characters doing something similiar.

Assassing + Autogun + Man-stopper rounds + Full Auto being able to:

47 BS (still only has bought 2 advances) + 10 (range) + 20 (Full Auto)
Brings him up to 77 BS (or if he optimized) 87 BS.
He rolls a 37 or < and he gets as many hits as the psyker going for Force Barrage doing only 2 points of reduced raw damage but with AP 3.
So his damage (using same dice +2 Mighty Strike) becomes: 11, 10, 16, 14, 13, 10
Doing 3, 2, 8, 6, 5, 2 Damage (not including righteous fury)
Totalling 26 damage. The things on the crit table

Arco flagellant charges, same 2 attacks hit, assassin has 53 Ag, with +20 dodge and Step aside. So he can dodge both attacks with a 73% chance to do so.

Points of Failure:
Loses to a 87% chance to hit as statistically even against this powerful target 1 bullet can do damage
Fails to dodge to 73% chance over 2 tests.
Has more money so can likely afford a better armour, xeno-mesh, maybe even carapace.

Will get to the non-combat in a bit. This is my rough look at it. The arbitrator with a hunting rifle and man-stopper gets a similiar effect except ends up doing loads of damage as -8 toughness bonus is only taken once meaning 3d10-4 can do some nasty damage.

king.com
2011-04-15, 11:34 PM
The problem with Magos is that you have to have 50 fellowship to get most of those alliance things.

Now I don't know about my fellow tech priests, but MY tech priest will probably never be able to get up that far.

Ah my mistake, ive forgotten one of the few houserules I go with. Tech priests interacting with techpriests use intelligence as the base stat. Also, Oath Bonded to the Angels of Death, no requirement for that.

MickJay
2011-04-16, 06:26 AM
Ah my mistake, ive forgotten one of the few houserules I go with. Tech priests interacting with techpriests use intelligence as the base stat.

I'm surprised this was not made official, really. Hard to figure out how Mechanicus could even function otherwise.

Surrealistik
2011-04-16, 10:20 AM
Given you have an optional reroll assuming a worse than average stat for any one roll, WP can be expected to be higher than 11; 12-15 is probably a more fair assumption.

Of course, this is assuming pure RAW; most DMs permit point buy or at least allow players to assign their rolls, so odds are you get something in the 15-20 range for WP. Point buy is a straight 20, but either way is fine.

Darkholder for an effective +10, Living Nightmare for +5.

31 to 40 + 10 + 5 = 46 to 55 WP
31 + 5 Toughness = 36 T

XP Buy: 7,000 XP (Half way through Scholar Arcanum)
Sanctionite (1-499 XP):


Living Nightmare: 300 XP
+5 WP: 100 XP
Awareness: 100 XP


Neonate (500-999 XP):


+10 WP: 250 XP
+15 WP: 500 XP


Aspirant (1,000-1,999):


+20 WP: 750 XP (66-75 WP)

Scholar Materium (2,000-2,999):


Psi Rating 2: 200 XP (3-4 Lesser Psychic Powers; LPPs)
Psi Rating 3: 200 XP (Force Barrage, 3-4 LPPs)
Psychic Power: 200 XP (Precision Telekinesis)
Dodge: 100 XP
Paranoia: 100 XP
Power Well: 200 XP


Scholar Medicae (3,000-5,999):


Tech-Use: 100 (41 Tech-Use)
Awareness +10: 100
Awareness +20: 200 (61 Awareness)
Discipline Focus (Telekinesis): 200 XP
Psi Rating 4: 200 XP (Divine Shot, 3-4 LPPs)
Psychic Power 2x: 200 XP (Push, Preternatural Awareness)
Agility +5: 500
Agility +10: 750 (41 Ag)
Toughness +5: 250 (41 T)
Perception +5: 100
Perception +10: 250 (41 P)
Intelligence +5: 100
Intelligence +10: 250 (41 Int)


Scholar Arcanum (6,000-7,999):


Logic: 100 XP (41 Logic)
Dodge +10: 100 XP (51 Dodge)
Medicae: 100 XP (41 Medicae)
Interrogation: 100 XP (66-75 Interrogation)
Discipline Focus (Divination): 200 XP
Psychic Power 2x: 200 XP (Utility Divination Power, Glimpse)
Power Well: 200 XP


Divination Powers:


Divine Shot
Glimpse
Preternatural Awareness
Far Sight/Soul Sight/Dowsing, etc.. (whatever is most useful for your campaign)



Telekinesis Powers:


Precision Telekinesis
Force Barrage
Push



Choice LSPs (assuming 10 with WP 66; 15 with WP 70 or better; several of these will vary depending on the campaign. Pick from the following list as needed):

Endure Flames (Fire immunity, heavy Plasma/Melta resistance),
Fearful Aura (broken LSP),
Chameleon (obvious use)
Call Item (get a crucial weapon/item past security with ease, rearm yourself with say a Force Weapon if necessary, etc)
Spasm (obviously useful)
Weapon Jinx (ridiculously useful, even with its nerf),
Sense Presence (obviously useful)
Space Slip (move through walls/doors with impunity),
Mutable Features (shape shifting with ridiculous Overbleed is obviously useful) 22+12+2 = 36 - 8 / 5 = 5.6 Overbleed = -50 penalty to the WP roll; most will autofail.
Truthseeker (effectively force the target to tell the truth or remain silent; see Mutable Features overbleed. Given that you have 66 Interrogation with a +30 bonus from Glimpse, he's talking)
Haywire (obviously useful; works without fail on completely mechanical/electronic targets)
Trusting Aura (effective +20 to all interaction skills; can be subbed out if you have Glimpse as the bonus doesn't stack)
Distortion (anonymity for you and your allies)
Without A Trace (obviously useful)
Float (obviously useful, invulnerability to most meleers including Arcoflaggants)
Healer (great interim power until you get Seal Wounds; still beats the hell out of natural healing with Medicae)
Dull Pain (Instantaneous Fatigue removal on demand is surprisingly useful, especially if you abuse Precision Telekinesis to increase carrying capacity)
Distort Vision (a classic; spam it while you kill something conventionally with Precision Telekinesis)




Killing the Arcoflaggant:

First, we have Preternatural Awareness to auto-win initiative:

6 (WP) + 6 (Invocation) + 22 (Psi 4) + 2 (Power Well) + 2 (Discipline Focus) = 38 - 9 / 10 = 2.9 Average Overbleed; round up for +24 Initiative, round down for +18 Initiative, +4 Ag Bonus. Going first is guaranteed either way. Dismiss Preternatural Awareness on your turn before manifesting, as it has served its purpose.

Versus the Arcoflaggant, a monster you very obviously cherry picked due to its immunities and relatively high armor/toughness, we use Divine Shot + MP Lascannon, or any other similar heavy weapon: 5.5 * 10 = 55 + 10 = 60 ignoring 10 points of Armor. Alternately use a Multi-Melta or any other heavy weapons with comparable damage for an undodgable instant kill. Dead Arco-flaggant. Precision Telekinesis aimed Autocannons and other super-heavy weapons also do the trick.

And/or you can just use the Lesser Power Float (5 meters off the ground is handily out of their reach) or simply go the Biomancy route in place of Divination and use Shape Flesh to give yourself Flier so you can pick them off at your leisure with Force Barrage spam, or WP aimed gunfire using Precision Telekinesis to substitute for BS Tests. This has the happy side effect of making these attacks completely undodgable and not subject to BS modifiers (including cover) by the RAW as it is no longer features a BS Test and is therefore not classified as a Ranged Attack.

Miscellany/Summary:

Your Force Barrage math is completely off by the way (also you never 'random roll' you use the average). First off, the Overbleed:

6 (WP Bonus) + 22 (Psi 4) + 2 (Focus) + 2 (Power Well) = (32 - 21) / 5 = 2.2
(essentially the same for a WP Bonus 7)

Force Barrage Damage vs Arcoflaggant:

WP 66: (5.5 [1d10] + 6 [WP] + 0.31 [Righteous Fury] - 7 [3 Body AP + 4 TB]) * 0.66 * 8 = 25.3968 average damage
WP 70: (5.5 [1d10] + 6 [WP] + 0.31 [Righteous Fury] - 7 [3 Body AP + 4 TB]) * 0.7 * 9 = 30.303 average damage
WP 75: (5.5 [1d10] + 6 [WP] + 0.31 [Righteous Fury] - 7 [3 Body AP + 4 TB]) * 0.75 * 9 = 32.4675 average damage

As of the 3.0 Errata, Psychic Powers count as attacks, and therefore benefit from Righteous Fury (which is not specific to Melee/Ranged Attacks). Righteous Fury is calculated as 0.1 (chance of a natural 10) * 0.31 (by RAW you must use BS/WS, though you can substitute with WP using Precision Telekinesis for a .66-.75 multiplier) * 10 (difference between max and average damage on 1 dice + average damage on the bonus dice: 4.5 + 5.5) = 0.31 or .66-.75 if Precision Telekinesis is active. I'm only assuming the possibility of 1 RF per roll.


While Push is useless against Arcoflaggants, it's definitely worth looking at in general, given that most enemies aren't flat out immune to Fatigue (not even Daemons or Servitors) and it enables you to capture targets alive (or kill them) with ease:

6 (WP Bonus) + 22 (Psi 4) + 2 (Focus) + 2 (Power Well) = (32 - 13) / 5 = 3.8
so essentially 3-4 Overbleed, which effectively translates into 3-4 additional points of Fatigue:

66 - 50 (average roll) vs 50 - 50 (though average strength for most monsters is probably well below that) = 16 vs 0 so 1 degree of success + 3-4 additional degrees from Overbleed for 4-5 points of Fatigue, and the target is also knocked prone. Obviously this means an instant KO against the vast majority of enemies. With WP 70-75, increase the average # of Fatigue points by 1.

Further, odds of a Perils of the Warp with all Psi 4 assuming Favoured of the Warp: 6.67%. The odds of something 'really bad' happening (as in instant death or severe injury) is considerably less; approximately 30% of that = ~2%.

In the meanwhile, you are incredibly accomplished at a wide breadth of extremely useful skills, any of which you can get a +30 to at will via Glimpse (or reroll with Lucky if you took it) using only 1-2 Psi Dice, and can use WP by the RAW to substitute for any Characteristic in a Characteristic Test, from BS to Int. You also have access to a powerful utility Divination. Also note that Power Well and the Discipline Focuses aren't necessary; you can comfortably swap them out to further bolster your skills or acquire more if necessary or beneficial given the nature of the campaign.

By the time you hit Psi 5, and have Divination, Biomancy, _and_ Telekinetics, you have essentially achieved godhood; everything beyond just compounds your phenomenal cosmic power.

LCP
2011-04-16, 06:37 PM
Versus the Arcoflaggant [...] we use Divine Shot + MP Lascannon, or any other similar heavy weapon: 5.5 * 10 = 55 + 10 = 60 ignoring 10 points of Armor. Alternately use a Multi-Melta or any other heavy weapons with comparable damage for an undodgable instant kill. Dead Arco-flaggant. Precision Telekinesis aimed Autocannons and other super-heavy weapons also do the trick.

Emphases mine. What the hell kind of psyker is toting that kind of hardware around? His income is Supine class - even starting at the full income for his advancement scheme in your post (rather than having built up his wealth over the course of his gaming career through the lower ranks), buying a man-portable Lascannon would require him to hoard his income for almost four years. Unless his Inquisitor is covering his ammo tab, that's a long time for him to stretch the three bullets in his starting revolver/the one charge pack in his starting laspistol.

A direct hit from a lascannon or multimelta will slag 99% of adversaries in the game, and an autocannon is almost as lethal. As an habitual DH GM, the only circumstances in which I can see the PCs getting hold of one are

1) If it is built into the environment, because they are about to fight an opponent that requires such weaponry in order to be able to damage it at all (e.g. a frickin' tank), or

2) If it has been requisitioned by special Inquisitorial privilege for a specific mission - in which case, it should be in the hands of the strongest, highest-BS member of the party, likely a guardsman if there is one. You can argue that your psychic powers make you a better fit for the position of heavy weapons dude, but that's certainly not how the Imperium think in the game world - tell me how many psykers you can see in this picture. (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1252729_99120105009_IGCdnHvyWpnsqdmain_873x627.jp g) For one thing, it would be inefficient - letting opponents try to dodge the heavy weapon's shots is a small price to pay if it leaves the psyker free to use his powers more imaginatively while the heavy weapon is still firing.

Using heavy weapons in your example to reduce the opponent to pulp only proves that heavy weapons are... heavy weapons.

EDIT: And double-checking the weapon stats, a man-portable Lascannon weighs 55kg. To even carry it without herniating himself, the psyker would have to meet the criterion TB + SB = 8, which, unless you rolled a fair few 20s at character creation, the psyker you've posted would not have.

Surrealistik
2011-04-16, 07:04 PM
Emphases mine. What the hell kind of psyker is toting that kind of hardware around? His income is Supine class - even starting at the full income for his advancement scheme in your post (rather than having built up his wealth over the course of his gaming career through the lower ranks), buying a man-portable Lascannon would require him to hoard his income for almost four years. Unless his Inquisitor is covering his ammo tab, that's a long time for him to stretch the three bullets in his starting revolver/the one charge pack in his starting laspistol.

Are you really under the impression that the Inquisitor is literally going to make his acolytes pay for their own weaponry and equipment? Any sensible Inquisitor will give his acolytes the gear they can use best and be trusted with. By the time you reach Scholar Arcanum, you have likely proven worthy of heavy weapon clearance.


2) If it has been requisitioned by special Inquisitorial privilege for a specific mission - in which case, it should be in the hands of the strongest, highest-BS member of the party, likely a guardsman if there is one. You can argue that your psychic powers make you a better fit for the position of heavy weapons dude, but that's certainly not how the Imperium think in the game world - tell me how many psykers you can see in this picture. (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1252729_99120105009_IGCdnHvyWpnsqdmain_873x627.jp g) For one thing, it would be inefficient - letting opponents try to dodge the heavy weapon's shots is a small price to pay if it leaves the psyker free to use his powers more imaginatively while the heavy weapon is still firing.

The Guardsman is your personal mule, nothing more; why do you need to use your powers creatively in battle when you can use them to instantly level your opponent instead?

Further what does that even prove? That Divine Shot doesn't exist in tabletop?


Using heavy weapons in your example to reduce the opponent to pulp only proves that heavy weapons are... heavy weapons.

No, it proves that you can uniquely one shot virtually any DH enemy without any possibility of missing, dodging or evasion because you're a Psyker using Divine Shot.


EDIT: And double-checking the weapon stats, a man-portable Lascannon weighs 55kg. To even carry it without herniating himself, the psyker would have to meet the criterion TB + SB = 8, which, unless you rolled a fair few 20s at character creation, the psyker you've posted would not have.

Not at all; boosting your TB + SB total to 8 by Scholar Arcanum (assuming average 31 scores in each) is extremely doable. Second, you can use Precision Telekinesis to Test WP in order to temporarily increase your effective carrying capacity.

Finally, as stated, you can use a mere Lesser Power to hover out of reach of the Arco-flaggants (they can't deal with this; they're literally raging retards with chainaxes) and kill them at your leisure with more 'palpable' weaponry if you like.

Ranos
2011-04-16, 07:11 PM
tell me how many psykers you can see in this picture. (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1252729_99120105009_IGCdnHvyWpnsqdmain_873x627.jp g)
I'm not going to get involved in the crunch debate, been there done that, but what makes you think there aren't any psykers in the picture ?

LCP
2011-04-16, 07:20 PM
Are you really under the impression that the Inquisitor is literally going to make his acolytes pay for their own weaponry and equipment? Any sensible Inquisitor will give his acolytes the gear they can use best and be trusted with.

I run my games by a mixture of direct purchase and requisition - but I definitely use the listed incomes as a benchmark of the kind of resources the Acolytes should have available to them.


By the time you reach Scholar Arcanum, you have likely proven worthy of heavy weapon clearance.

Again, look to the background. In the tabletop game, you can field Primaris Psykers, and they don't have heavy weapons options. Psykers are not expected to lug heavy weapons about, and a psyker asking for a heavy weapon of that calibre would raise the Inquisitor's eyebrows right off his face. Lascannons in particular, and other weapons of that stripe, are precious technological gems in the 40K setting: they should be issued only to heavy weapons specialists who are taking on the kinds of target that require them, not as personal sidearms for psykers working as sleuths for the Inquisition. This is confirmed in the crunch by their Very Rare availability.

As a DH GM, I certainly would not consider access to a man-portable lascannon - or in fact any heavy weapon, barring a heavy stubber - a given for a psyker at rank 7. In fact I would think it was pretty implausible. You may disagree, but I don't think my view is too peculiar among DH GMs.


The Guardsman is your personal mule, nothing more; why do you need to use your powers creatively in battle when you can use them to instantly level your opponent instead?

Because that is not the viewpoint from which these assessments are made. From the point of view of anyone who is not a melee specialist, it makes sense for them to carry the group's only lascannon if they want to maximise their individual killing power, but that is not the same as maximising the group's combat potential, which is what the Inquisitor is concerned with.

On top of that, the Inquisitor is played by the GM, and any GM who regards the Guardsman as "the psyker's personal mule" is ruining the game for the Guardsman player and thus a pretty poor GM.


No, it proves that you can uniquely one shot virtually any DH enemy without any possibility of missing, dodging or evasion because you're a Psyker using Divine Shot.

This is a blind assertion that simply means nothing without the context of the improbable appearance of a high-powered heavy weapon.

You are in a 10 by 10 metre room with a genestealer. You have a stub pistol, and Divine Shot. One shot him.


Not at all; boosting your TB + SB total to 8 by Scholar Arcanum (assuming average 31 scores in each) is extremely doable. Second, you can use Precision Telekinesis to Test WP in order to temporarily increase your effective carrying capacity.

But I looked at the sheet you put up above and you hadn't done so, meaning you'd have to trade off some of those other goodies to get it (not to mention Specialist Weapon Training - Heavy (Las), which isn't even on your advance scheme).

Telekinesis-ing the weapon around is a good solution, sure, but it does require the constant sustaining of a psychic power. I know that sustaining powers is fairly low-risk but if you're having to use it for something as mundane as carrying your equipment then it is something of a vulnerability. Not to mention the fact that presumably you are carrying things besides the lascannon, upping the weight even further.


Finally, as stated, you can use a mere Lesser Power to hover out of reach of the Arco-flaggants (they can't deal with this; they're literally raging retards with chainaxes) and kill them at your leisure.

I'm not contesting that: the rest of your argument I don't necessarily disagree with, it's just the egregious image of a psyker heavy weapons specialist that rubs me up the wrong way.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-04-16, 07:51 PM
Are you really under the impression that the Inquisitor is literally going to make his acolytes pay for their own weaponry and equipment? Any sensible Inquisitor will give his acolytes the gear they can use best and be trusted with. By the time you reach Scholar Arcanum, you have likely proven worthy of heavy weapon clearance.

There are several things wrong with this statement.

1) You are free to play your game however you want, but the default rules are that the players have to buy their own gear.

2) What Inquisitor has the time to micromanage his acolytes? That's the whole point of the Salary rules. The Inquisitor gives you money based on your level of importance, which you are trusted to spend at the Inquisitor's best interests.

3) Until Ascension level, the default assumption is that you're not trusted acolytes who get whatever they ask the Inquisitor for. You're the Inquisitor's mooks, who do the work that isn't important enough for him to personally pay attention to. It's not a relationship where you get to ask pretty please for nice things, it's a relationship where he tells you to do something, and you do it with whatever he is nice enough to give to you.

Also, if you're running around spamming psychic powers like you suggest here, one of two things is going to happen.

1) You are going to get burnt at the stake by the heretic-fearing populace at worst, and at best you're going to announce your presence to the entire planet you're on.

2) You're going to roll badly, trigger Perils of the Warp, and kill off your entire party and yourself. The chances of this happening increase as you gain levels.

Surrealistik
2011-04-16, 07:52 PM
I run my games by a mixture of direct purchase and requisition - but I definitely use the listed incomes as a benchmark of the kind of resources the Acolytes should have available to them.

Income is best thought of as spending money, not an woefully inadequate allowance for the equipment you need to do your job.


Again, look to the background. In the tabletop game, you can field Primaris Psykers, and they don't have heavy weapons options. Psykers are not expected to lug heavy weapons about, and a psyker asking for a heavy weapon of that calibre would raise the Inquisitor's eyebrows right off his face. Lascannons in particular, and other weapons of that stripe, are precious technological gems in the 40K setting: they should be issued only to heavy weapons specialists who are taking on the kinds of target that require them, not as personal sidearms for psykers working as sleuths for the Inquisition. This is confirmed in the crunch by their Very Rare availability.

As a DH GM, I certainly would not consider access to a man-portable lascannon - or in fact any heavy weapon, barring a heavy stubber - a given for a psyker at rank 7. In fact I would think it was pretty implausible. You may disagree, but I don't think my view is too peculiar among DH GMs.

Any Inquisitor worthy of the title who knows his Psyker agent is capable of one shotting anything without fail is going to give him the firepower he needs to do his job at an optimal level if the need is foreseen.


Because that is not the viewpoint from which these assessments are made. From the point of view of anyone who is not a melee specialist, it makes sense for them to carry the group's only lascannon if they want to maximise their individual killing power, but that is not the same as maximising the group's combat potential, which is what the Inquisitor is concerned with.

Want to maximize the group's killing power? Facing heavily armoured opponents? Give the Divine Shot Psyker his gun.


On top of that, the Inquisitor is played by the GM, and any GM who regards the Guardsman as "the psyker's personal mule" is ruining the game for the Guardsman player and thus a pretty poor GM.

Well that's what he is effectively; a heavy weapons caddy. I don't like it either; the Guardsman is one of the most underpowered if not the most underpowered career in the game overall.


This is a blind assertion that simply means nothing without the context of the improbable appearance of a high-powered heavy weapon.

If you can use Divine Shot to OHKO virtually anything, and your Inquisitor knows this, it's not improbable as a rank 7 Psyker.


You are in a 10 by 10 metre room with a genestealer. You have a stub pistol, and Divine Shot. One shot him.

Okay, I drop the useless stub pistol as a Free Action and Force Barrage him; or Push him, etc...



But I looked at the sheet you put up above and you hadn't done so, meaning you'd have to trade off some of those other goodies to get it (not to mention Specialist Weapon Training - Heavy (Las), which isn't even on your advance scheme).

Sure, swap out some Agil, or the more disposable stuff like Power Well. Done.


Telekinesis-ing the weapon around is a good solution, sure, but it does require the constant sustaining of a psychic power. I know that sustaining powers is fairly low-risk but if you're having to use it for something as mundane as carrying your equipment then it is something of a vulnerability. Not to mention the fact that presumably you are carrying things besides the lascannon, upping the weight even further.

You do realize that Precision Telekinesis is one of those powers you _want_ to sustain virtually all the time right? It's one of the best in the game.



1) You are free to play your game however you want, but the default rules are that the players have to buy their own gear.

Nope. There is _nothing_ in the RAW that explicitly says that the acolytes _have_ to buy their own gear; you're given salaries and prices, that's it.


2) What Inquisitor has the time to micromanage his acolytes? That's the whole point of the Salary rules. The Inquisitor gives you money based on your level of importance, which you are trusted to spend at the Inquisitor's best interests.

The Inquisitor isn't paying you; the rulebook explicitly says that's money you're making in your spare time: DH Core Rulebook, Pg 124


3) Until Ascension level, the default assumption is that you're not trusted acolytes who get whatever they ask the Inquisitor for. You're the Inquisitor's mooks, who do the work that isn't important enough for him to personally pay attention to. It's not a relationship where you get to ask pretty please for nice things, it's a relationship where he tells you to do something, and you do it with whatever he is nice enough to give to you.

Proof? Reference?


Also, if you're running around spamming psychic powers like you suggest here, one of two things is going to happen.

1) You are going to get burnt at the stake by the heretic-fearing populace at worst, and at best you're going to announce your presence to the entire planet you're on.

2) You're going to roll badly, trigger Perils of the Warp, and kill off your entire party and yourself. The chances of this happening increase as you gain levels.

I just spelled out how thoroughly unlikely a truly bad Perils actually is with Favoured of the Warp. Further, you only need to resort to that level of power in truly desperate encounters; for the most part, just use a Melta Gun or whatever with Psi 2 Divine Shot, or Precision Telekinesis.

LCP
2011-04-16, 08:24 PM
Mr Bookworm said it above:


Until Ascension level, the default assumption is that you're not trusted acolytes who get whatever they ask the Inquisitor for. You're the Inquisitor's mooks, who do the work that isn't important enough for him to personally pay attention to. It's not a relationship where you get to ask pretty please for nice things, it's a relationship where he tells you to do something, and you do it with whatever he is nice enough to give to you.

I don't think I can put it better. (I see in your edit you ask for 'proof' or a reference... I'm pretty sure that the position of Acolytes is spelt out along those lines under the fluff section in the DH core book, explaining how the circles of the Inquisition work. Near the big Venn Diagram type thing). It's always going to vary a bit on interpretation, but you are pointing out a problem and we are pointing out a background-consistent, zero-house-rules solution.

When you say these things:


Any Inquisitor worthy of the title who knows his Psyker agent is capable of one shotting anything without fail is going to give him the firepower he needs to do his job at an optimal level if the need is foreseen.


If you can use Divine Shot to OHKO virtually anything, and your Inquisitor knows this, it's not improbable as a rank 7 Psyker.

you seem to me to be telling the GM, from a player's standpoint, what the Inquisitor should be doing.

As Acolytes, you are not a tooled-up kill-team - if there's a target that the Inquisitor just wants made extremely dead, then he can call in an orbital strike, or the Guard (with as many heavy weapons as he likes), or even the Deathwatch, if you want to make a game out of it. Not his Acolytes. You're contacts, you're investigators, and you're expendable. He may give you the weaponry you need to survive, but he's not going to shower you with riches, and that's undeniably what a Very Rare, 5,000 throne man-portable lascannon represents.

On top of all this, if by some chance that very rare lascannon should come along, then as you've acknowledged with the Genestealer example, the psyker has a plethora of extremely useful things he can do without using Divine Shot, which are not accessible to a blunt gunner. Therefore, if you have the gunner and the psyker on the same team, it only makes sense to give the gunner the lascannon, so that you can have the lascannon firing and the psyker psyking... at the same time. Considering a single target, they can then either dodge the psyker's attack, or the heavy weapon (assuming the heavy weapon is single-shot), but can't dodge both, meaning your baseline is still on a par with what you'd be doing with the psyker making the heavy weapon undodgeable. And your upper limit is much, much higher, because they could well just fail to dodge at all and take both hits full to the face. Not to mention the fact that oft times a clever violation of the laws of physics by the party psyker can be infinitely more valuable than direct damage, and he's not free to do that if he's the lascannon gunner.

The argument


Want to maximize the group's killing power? Facing heavily armoured opponents? Give the Divine Shot Psyker his gun.

only makes sense if you assume unlimited resources: by that logic you may as well say "want to maximise the group's killing power? Facing heavily armoured opponents? Give everyone power armour, a power fist, and their own personal Land Raider".


This is all about GMing style, so I can see that if you wanted to, you could GM exactly the kind of game you are talking about, where the psyker totes a lascannon and effortlessly blows away 99% of the opposition. There's no explicit forbiddance of that in the rules. All that I'm trying to point out here is that it doesn't take any kind of contortion of the GM's remit to prevent that from happening by adhering to some sensible IC limitations on the PCs' resources, and enforcing the idea that specialist weapons will only be given to people who specialise in them. As I said above, Psykers don't have the option for SWT (Heavy - Las) and as GM I don't think I'd be inclined to give it to a player who asked for it as an Elite advance: there's absolutely no IC reasoning behind it.

I run my own games this way, and my players are mostly pretty positive about the experience. You can read them for yourself, if you want - they're linked in my sig, and they do include a psyker (although he's a fair way below rank 7 at the moment).


Regarding my Genestealer test:


Okay, I drop the useless stub pistol as a Free Action and Force Barrage him; or Push him, etc...

Thus proving that your assertion was false: Divine Shot was the icing on the heavy weapons cake, and without a heavy weapon, it does not allow you to "uniquely one-shot anything" at all.

Not that it's a serious test in anything but that respect. The Genestealer's got an initiative bonus of 24, you will be psyker fillets before you can say the words "Force Barrage".

king.com
2011-04-16, 08:26 PM
Okay a few mistakes you've made there Surrealistik.

Firstly, acro-flagellants have unnatural strength and toughness, meaning damage reducing is 11 points (3 armour + 8 for toughness) and the float power being only 5 feet off the ground? For a strength bonus of 8, thats a piece of cake to jump and swing at.

Secondly you've suggested that if the psyker can have a MP Lascannon AND be able to carry it along with all his other gear, oh so subtlely, the comely unoptimized assassin would atleast have a heavy bolter by now.

Given that hes still outperforming the psyker on raw damage. Given his bonus +2 damage and the heavy bolter on default outdamaging each force bolt, hell if he wanted to he could get in a little closer and get a +30, meaning garunteed hit.

king.com
2011-04-16, 08:57 PM
Income is best thought of as spending money, not an woefully inadequate allowance for the equipment you need to do your job.

No, its your income, you know as the word implies.




Any Inquisitor worthy of the title who knows his Psyker agent is capable of one shotting anything without fail is going to give him the firepower he needs to do his job at an optimal level if the need is foreseen.

Why would he provide a lascannon to an investigation team? I mean if hes some hypo monodominant nutjob, he might provide everyone a flamer or heavy flamer but a lascannon or a multi-melta? Thats pretty silly.



Want to maximize the group's killing power? Facing heavily armoured opponents? Give the Divine Shot Psyker his gun.

Or he gives it to the guy who can use it as effectively if not more so and doesn't have to depend on a power working. Also while the assassin can actually do HIS thing, the psyker can do HIS thing to help.



Nope. There is _nothing_ in the RAW that explicitly says that the acolytes _have_ to buy their own gear; you're given salaries and prices, that's it.


Ok how about page 125 of Core rules under the heading 'Acolyte Stipend'
"As Acolytes prove their worth by successfully accomplishing missions and assignments, their Inquisitor may decide to provide further support. For example this could include increasing an Acolte's monthly income by a further 10-50 thrones or furnishing with regular ammo supplies. Ultimately this will be decided by the GM..."

This implies to me that it is the exception not the norm that an Inquisitor provides additional resources to his acolytes and it is up to the GM to decide what players get beyond income.



The Inquisitor isn't paying you; the rulebook explicitly says that's money you're making in your spare time: DH Core Rulebook, Pg 124




Proof? Reference?

Page 276-277

Rank 7-8 are Trusted Acolytes to quote "Those that remain are considered capable. Some may even gain the trust of their master."

Seems to me that this implies that this is the point where the Inquisitor would consider directly supporting them.



I just spelled out how thoroughly unlikely a truly bad Perils actually is with Favoured of the Warp. Further, you only need to resort to that level of power in truly desperate encounters; for the most part, just use a Melta Gun or whatever with Psi 2 Divine Shot, or Precision Telekinesis.

And your making a massive assumption you can get a Melta Gun. Simple ruling a GM made with Divine Shot, it works by seeing the potential shots of the gun of the near-infinite shots for the one that hits. If you are not trained in that weapon, (or Arms Master), your near-infinite shots are misses.


Also on the topic of Guardsman, they were the weakest, until Blood of Martyrs anyway. You take the background package that lets them take Faith Powers, they immediately become the definitive Jack of All Trades. Hell if you want to be really silly, take the wyrd package. He can literally do a bit of everything.




I am immediately regret getting involved in this discussion. Internet discussions never ever settle anything and its even worse when peoepl are arguing when having an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BASIC STRUCTURE for how the game is run. This is silly and pointless, I paly where acoltyes are scavenging for resources, where subtlety and investigation is the aim. You obviously play it where these people are giving the best equipment they could possibly get.

My party im running at the moment are around the 5000-6000 Xp mark. There best weapons at this point consist of: a hunting rifle (good quality + attachments), a combat shotgun, an autogun (lots of attachments) and a force weapon (who one of the psykers got from taking Templar Calix).

The force weapon is the outlier but beyond that people have been getting their own gear. They are self-sufficient, and their Inquisitor would definitely prefer his agents to no be dependent on handouts but thats just him.

The thing about a table top roleplaying game is that rules, universe, people and even logic to a degree are determined by the GM. All I want to say is that people who have never played Dark Heresy before, should definitely try it, despite what Surrealistik suggests, the game is not a broken mess, not even for psykers. The GM has a hundred an one different tools at his disposal to even them out both in rules and in the WH40K universe. Get the game, play it, enjoy it and if YOU and YOUR GROUP decide there is a problem, go ahead and make changes.

Surrealistik
2011-04-16, 09:48 PM
Okay a few mistakes you've made there Surrealistik.

No I didn't.


Firstly, acro-flagellants have unnatural strength and toughness, meaning damage reducing is 11 points (3 armour + 8 for toughness) and the float power being only 5 feet off the ground? For a strength bonus of 8, thats a piece of cake to jump and swing at.

Incorrect; it's not 5 feet, it's 5 meters. Second, by the RAW, it's not possible to leap and attack at the same time unless you have a trait that allows you to do so specifically as that's a Full Action.

It does not have Unnatural Toughness.




Secondly you've suggested that if the psyker can have a MP Lascannon AND be able to carry it along with all his other gear, oh so subtlely, the comely unoptimized assassin would atleast have a heavy bolter by now.

Given that hes still outperforming the psyker on raw damage. Given his bonus +2 damage and the heavy bolter on default outdamaging each force bolt, hell if he wanted to he could get in a little closer and get a +30, meaning garunteed hit.

Nope; in terms of raw damage, Force Barrage beats out the Heavy Bolter (impossible to dodge), as does his no miss, perfect accuracy, impossible to dodge Lascannon.

Your Heavy Bolter also does not guarantee hits due to Dodge and adverse modifiers/conditions.



No, its your income, you know as the word implies.

Yes, income that you earn in your spare time as the RAW explicitly says.


Why would he provide a lascannon to an investigation team? I mean if hes some hypo monodominant nutjob, he might provide everyone a flamer or heavy flamer but a lascannon or a multi-melta? Thats pretty silly.

He wouldn't; so use Hover or Shape Flesh. Otherwise, it's instagib time.


Or he gives it to the guy who can use it as effectively if not more so and doesn't have to depend on a power working. Also while the assassin can actually do HIS thing, the psyker can do HIS thing to help.

Except he can't, and the Psyker can do combat better, while also excelling at his own 'thing' (hence part of the reason the class is broken).


Ok how about page 125 of Core rules under the heading 'Acolyte Stipend'
"As Acolytes prove their worth by successfully accomplishing missions and assignments, their Inquisitor may decide to provide further support. For example this could include increasing an Acolte's monthly income by a further 10-50 thrones or furnishing with regular ammo supplies. Ultimately this will be decided by the GM..."

This implies to me that it is the exception not the norm that an Inquisitor provides additional resources to his acolytes and it is up to the GM to decide what players get beyond income.

To me this implies that it is the norm for the Inquisitor to provide additional resources to his acolytes as they succeed and advance in rank. A rank 7 Acolyte is quite advanced indeed.


Page 276-277

Rank 7-8 are Trusted Acolytes to quote "Those that remain are considered capable. Some may even gain the trust of their master."

Seems to me that this implies that this is the point where the Inquisitor would consider directly supporting them.

So yes, they are likely to be provided with the hardware they need.


And your making a massive assumption you can get a Melta Gun. Simple ruling a GM made with Divine Shot, it works by seeing the potential shots of the gun of the near-infinite shots for the one that hits. If you are not trained in that weapon, (or Arms Master), your near-infinite shots are misses.

I don't think it's at all a massive assumption you have access to Melta Guns and the like at rank 7 and blatant houserules are irrelevant. Heavy Flamers also work, and are relatively cheap.



As Acolytes, you are not a tooled-up kill-team - if there's a target that the Inquisitor just wants made extremely dead, then he can call in an orbital strike, or the Guard (with as many heavy weapons as he likes), or even the Deathwatch, if you want to make a game out of it. Not his Acolytes. You're contacts, you're investigators, and you're expendable. He may give you the weaponry you need to survive, but he's not going to shower you with riches, and that's undeniably what a Very Rare, 5,000 throne man-portable lascannon represents.

You're still valuable assets worth his time, trust and support, especially by the time you hit Rank 7, and approach Ascension status. Man-portable Lascannons are standard military ordinance; to assert that they constitute 'riches' for an Inquisitor is silly. If you're going into a hotzone, and discretion is paramount, getting equipped with an optimal weapon is not a stretch.




I don't think I can put it better. (I see in your edit you ask for 'proof' or a reference... I'm pretty sure that the position of Acolytes is spelt out along those lines under the fluff section in the DH core book, explaining how the circles of the Inquisition work. Near the big Venn Diagram type thing). It's always going to vary a bit on interpretation, but you are pointing out a problem and we are pointing out a background-consistent, zero-house-rules solution.

Where is the proof that states that senior acolytes (let's face it; rank 7 is up there) are expected to purchase their own gear, and don't even have the right to requisition items they need?


only makes sense if you assume unlimited resources: by that logic you may as well say "want to maximise the group's killing power? Facing heavily armoured opponents? Give everyone power armour, a power fist, and their own personal Land Raider".

Holy hyperbole Batman; not even remotely comparable. You're simply giving an experienced, accomplished acolyte a single tool that plays to his strengths.


Thus proving that your assertion was false: Divine Shot was the icing on the heavy weapons cake, and without a heavy weapon, it does not allow you to "uniquely one-shot anything" at all.


Except it doesn't. Divine Shot isn't merely 'icing', it's something that makes the Lascannon exponentially more deadly. It makes it perfectly accurate and precludes any possibility of missing; these are huge and material benefits, and it is a huge advantage unique and exclusive to the Psyker.


Not that it's a serious test in anything but that respect. The Genestealer's got an initiative bonus of 24, you will be psyker fillets before you can say the words "Force Barrage".

Except there's Preternatural Awareness, so the Psyker's initiative is at least competitive if not superior to the Genestealer's; nice try though.

WitchSlayer
2011-04-17, 12:53 AM
Ah my mistake, ive forgotten one of the few houserules I go with. Tech priests interacting with techpriests use intelligence as the base stat. Also, Oath Bonded to the Angels of Death, no requirement for that.

I... am going to bring this up to my DM!

king.com
2011-04-17, 01:48 AM
Why cant force bolts be dodged? They are attacks aren't they?

Also, why wouldnt you use the running leap rules in combination with a charge action?

huh, interesting about unnatural toughness, regardless unnatural toughness was used in both scenario and game session.

Since your obviously better at maths than me, can you do a couple of calculations for me?

Assassin BS 65 with Mighty Shot, Dual Shot, TWF(Ballistics), Ambidextrous, Gunslinger. Firing two Autopistols at full auto with Man-Stopper rounds, recoil gloves . Point Blank.

And the Same with Autoguns, full auto, recoil gloves and pistol grips.

LCP
2011-04-17, 05:33 AM
Surrealistik: I donít know why youíre citing the fluff passages of the book as if they give a definitive answer. You said it yourself: ďto me, this implies [...]Ē

There is no hard-and-fast ruling you can adhere to, thereís just a setting you can interpret. Yes, a Psyker with Divine Shot and a lascannon will destroy things, no-oneís denying that. All that Iím pointing out is that itís perfectly possible for the GM to say ďno lascannons for the psykerĒ and stay within the bounds of reasonable IC behaviour. Itís not even a quirk of my own style: itís how the Imperium behaves in a lot of the background and in the tabletop game.

Sure, you can say that by rank 7 your psyker should be trusted with some kit. Iíd actually agree, but Iíd disagree on scale. A rank 7 psyker in my opinion would be OK asking his Inquisitor for a nice bolt pistol, or maybe a force sword. Stuff appropriate to his vocation. The Imperium is a very rigidly stratified society, and just because someone can do something well doesnít mean they get given the kit to do it, any more than a medieval serf who was an excellent horse-rider got admitted to the joust. To me, giving an Acolyte a lascannon is like giving an MI5 agent or a plain-clothes police officer a field gun: it might be very killy but it just doesn't make sense.

Thereís a sliding scale between ďbuy everything with your salaryĒ and ďthe Inquisitor will give you anything you wantĒ that is entirely the GMís remit to decide. Your first claim in the thread was that psykers are game-breakingly overpowered: I am merely pointing out that at the GMís discretion, this one instance of overpowered behaviour isnít actually a problem Ė and that without the assumed availability of heavy weapons, Divine Shot is perfectly balanced. It seems to me that you are putting things forward with a funny perspective: first you say that psykers are game-breaking, but then you adamantly refuse any suggestion that moderates the excesses you point out, even when it patently breaks no rules. Are you invested in playing the game as a fun group, or in just showing everyone how awesome your psyker is? Because I donít think thatíd be terribly fun for the blunts in the party.

The OP is asking for opinions on how Dark Heresy is as a system, so I think thatís all I have to say on this matter. I run my group this way, and they seem to have a lot of fun. Theyíre currently at Rank 4, and so far I have observed little of what youíve said to be true: the Guardsman is actually one of their most competent combatants, and the psyker has not broken the game but rather been very enjoyable to have around due to the way his powers throw GM assumptions for a spin (i.e. using Wall Walk when threatened with a suddenly-appearing precipice). Perhaps as they get more powerful Iíll see more of what you were talking about: whatever happens, though, Iím certain that I wonít be giving them personal lascannons, and Iím fairly sure they arenít expecting them either.


Except there's Preternatural Awareness, so the Psyker's initiative is at least competitive if not superior to the Genestealer's; nice try though.

Preternatural Awareness is a half action to manifest. Taking actions requires initiative to have been rolled. The Genestealer has filleted you already. This is what I meant by it being a silly test: the 10x10m room concept strips all context. It even invalidates my original point of saying "go on, Divine Shot him to death" - I really only said it for comedic effect.

Of course, if you want to construct a more sensible test, then yes, maybe the psyker walked into the room with Preternatural Awareness sustained. The psyker youíve statted out, if I read him rightly, can cast PA at an average roll of 6 + 22 + 2 = 30, giving 2 levels of overbleed and a total bonus of +18 to his Initiative roll - he needs to add 9 to his casting roll to get another +6, which is moving towards the very slim end of the bell curve. It gives him a chance (as opposed to the previous certainty that the Genestealer would win initiative), but unless his AB is 6 or higher, the Genestealer still has the higher bonus.

And of course, if we are constructing a more true-to-game test... then the Genestealer too ought to have abilities that it would be using prior to an encounter in play. Like stealth. Of course, you can say that you want Detect Life or some such power sustained as well... and thatís when as GM Iíd have to ask why, because IC you donít know heís there. And then we get into the issue of whether the psyker is walking around with Detect Life sustained because heís paranoid about this particular environment, and before you know it we need to create an entire actual game with a plotline and everything in order to fully specify all the parameters. This entirely loses the point of the original thought experiment, but it does illustrate one thing: your psyker can have a Batman Defence, where he tries to be maximally prepared, but the GM doesnít need to bother with that kind of planning. He can see exactly what youíre doing, and plan accordingly (Schroedingerís GM?).

Iíd offer to run you through some kind of PBP gauntlet to prove or disprove some of these points, but I suspect you wouldnít really be interested. I think Iím done.

Ranos
2011-04-17, 05:42 AM
Right, yeah. As much as I agree that psykers are broken, them getting a lascannon is a pretty damn long shot. Not that they really need the lascannon for anything, but yeah.



Also on the topic of Guardsman, they were the weakest, until Blood of Martyrs anyway. You take the background package that lets them take Faith Powers, they immediately become the definitive Jack of All Trades. Hell if you want to be really silly, take the wyrd package. He can literally do a bit of everything.
I think guardsmen only get Pure Faith, actually. No actual faith powers beyond that. And since you only have 500XP to spend on background packages, you've gotta choose between that and Wyrd.
The ones that really were boosted were the cleric and the assassin.


Edit : On the subject of money, Trade skills can be pretty damn useful to boost that up to Trading Class. Since psykers automatically get one at rank 1, as long as they can maintain their cover and work in their off time, they're really never Supine.

king.com
2011-04-17, 05:51 AM
I think guardsmen only get Pure Faith, actually. No actual faith powers beyond that. And since you only have 500XP to spend on background packages, you've gotta choose between that and Wyrd.
The ones that really were boosted were the cleric and the assassin.


If a guardsman wants to take both I would absolutely let him, would give him an interesting shot. Also Pure Faith is what allows you to purchace faith powers. Its like getting the Psyker trait. You cant buy it, only get it. Considering how little a guardsman would really have worth purchasing without branching out too much, 500xp isnt a crazy price, get a couple in a single tree and your set anyway. Personally i think the Adept gets some great advances too from the Sister of Battle alternate rank 1s.



Edit : On the subject of money, Trade skills can be pretty damn useful to boost that up to Trading Class. Since psykers automatically get one at rank 1, as long as they can maintain their cover and work in their off time, they're really never Supine.

Absolutely, again thats up to the GM on how much free time these characters get or if its treated as a "your income ties with your trade" or even if everyone gets a collective lump sum bonus.

Ranos
2011-04-17, 05:54 AM
If a guardsman wants to take both I would absolutely let him, would give him an interesting shot. Also Pure Faith is what allows you to purchace faith powers. Its like getting the Psyker trait. You cant buy it, only get it. Considering how little a guardsman would really have worth purchasing without branching out too much, 500xp isnt a crazy price, get a couple in a single tree and your set anyway. Personally i think the Adept gets some great advances too from the Sister of Battle alternate rank 1s.
Well, what lets you buy Faith Powers is the Faith Power talent, actually, which has Pure Faith as a prerequisite. I'd probably let a guardsman with Pure Faith buy Faith Power as an elite advance anyway though.

And yeah, I forgot adepts. All those alternate ranks are really nice.

king.com
2011-04-17, 05:55 AM
Well, what lets you buy Faith Powers is the Faith Power talent, actually, which has Pure Faith as a prerequisite. I'd probably let a guardsman with Pure Faith buy Faith Power as an elite advance anyway though.

Yea thats the point of the background package. Its a nice idea if you happened to have rolled a lot of fate points at start.

Surrealistik
2011-04-17, 10:56 AM
Why cant force bolts be dodged? They are attacks aren't they?

It's an attack yes, but it's not a ranged attack as per the RAW, therefore the Dodge skill can't dodge it; it can only dodge melee and ranged attacks. Ranged attacks are defined as having Ballistic Skill Tests.


Also, why wouldnt you use the running leap rules in combination with a charge action?

Because you can't by the RAW because it doesn't permit using these actions in combination unless a creature has a special talent or trait; a running leap is a Full Action, and a Charge is a Full Action; that'd technically be two Full Actions.

Even if you could though, they're extremely unlikely to gain enough vertical distance to get within striking range of the Psyker since he's 5 meters up, and vertical distance = horizontal distance / 4. Running Leap distance = SB meters, or 8 in this case, so they gain 2 meters of vertical height of the required 5, which is not enough.

Forget jumping up; if they succeed on the Agility Test, they can only ascend 1.6 meters off the ground, and need an impossibly high number of degrees of success to close the remaining 3.4 meters of distance.


Assassin BS 65 with Mighty Shot, Dual Shot, TWF(Ballistics), Ambidextrous, Gunslinger. Firing two Autopistols at full auto with Man-Stopper rounds, recoil gloves . Point Blank.

You can't use Dual Shot with Full Auto.



Surrealistik: I donít know why youíre citing the fluff passages of the book as if they give a definitive answer. You said it yourself: ďto me, this implies [...]Ē

Yes, it's fluff, but it does give a definitive breakdown of what stuff like Income actually represents.


There is no hard-and-fast ruling you can adhere to, thereís just a setting you can interpret. Yes, a Psyker with Divine Shot and a lascannon will destroy things, no-oneís denying that. All that Iím pointing out is that itís perfectly possible for the GM to say ďno lascannons for the psykerĒ and stay within the bounds of reasonable IC behaviour. Itís not even a quirk of my own style: itís how the Imperium behaves in a lot of the background and in the tabletop game.

First off that's a completely subjective interpretation of the universe. Second, again, this is a senior acolyte whom is worth at least a modicum of the Inquisitor's consideration and resources; a Lascannon is such a modicum, and again, it plays to a known strength of his Acolyte. If it makes sense for the mission (i.e. they can expect daemons, sorcerers, and other powerful opponents) and subtlety isn't the order of the day, I don't see any logical reason for not giving the Psyker his Lascannon.


Sure, you can say that by rank 7 your psyker should be trusted with some kit. Iíd actually agree, but Iíd disagree on scale. A rank 7 psyker in my opinion would be OK asking his Inquisitor for a nice bolt pistol, or maybe a force sword. Stuff appropriate to his vocation. The Imperium is a very rigidly stratified society, and just because someone can do something well doesnít mean they get given the kit to do it, any more than a medieval serf who was an excellent horse-rider got admitted to the joust. To me, giving an Acolyte a lascannon is like giving an MI5 agent or a plain-clothes police officer a field gun: it might be very killy but it just doesn't make sense.

An acolyte's role is a diverse one; they do virtually everything under the sun, from investigations to clean up. In short, they do everything as directed. Yes, they tend towards the former, but the latter falls under their purview as well, and for such an assignment giving a Lascannon to a senior imperial agent that can make excellent use of it makes sense if discretion is not required. In most cases a simple Meltagun will be sufficient, but when you have especially resilient and/or heavily armoured foes, and the Inquisitor knows this, it's perfectly legitimate to break out the biggest guns; that's what they're for.



Thereís a sliding scale between ďbuy everything with your salaryĒ and ďthe Inquisitor will give you anything you wantĒ that is entirely the GMís remit to decide. Your first claim in the thread was that psykers are game-breakingly overpowered: I am merely pointing out that at the GMís discretion, this one instance of overpowered behaviour isnít actually a problem Ė and that without the assumed availability of heavy weapons, Divine Shot is perfectly balanced. It seems to me that you are putting things forward with a funny perspective: first you say that psykers are game-breaking, but then you adamantly refuse any suggestion that moderates the excesses you point out, even when it patently breaks no rules. Are you invested in playing the game as a fun group, or in just showing everyone how awesome your psyker is? Because I donít think thatíd be terribly fun for the blunts in the party.

First off, I'm not 'refusing' suggestions, I'm simply pointing out that their reasoning is flawed, and is based on false assumptions, like Income is your official Inquisitorial pay or 'allowance' for purchasing munitions, or a senior Rank 7 agent doesn't have the right to requisition high level mission appropriate gear.


The OP is asking for opinions on how Dark Heresy is as a system, so I think thatís all I have to say on this matter. I run my group this way, and they seem to have a lot of fun. Theyíre currently at Rank 4, and so far I have observed little of what youíve said to be true: the Guardsman is actually one of their most competent combatants, and the psyker has not broken the game but rather been very enjoyable to have around due to the way his powers throw GM assumptions for a spin (i.e. using Wall Walk when threatened with a suddenly-appearing precipice). Perhaps as they get more powerful Iíll see more of what you were talking about: whatever happens, though, Iím certain that I wonít be giving them personal lascannons, and Iím fairly sure they arenít expecting them either.

Of course the Psyker hasn't broken the game yet; he hasn't yet crossed that threshold which I explicitly stated (also a badly built Psyker never will).


Preternatural Awareness is a half action to manifest. Taking actions requires initiative to have been rolled. The Genestealer has filleted you already. This is what I meant by it being a silly test: the 10x10m room concept strips all context. It even invalidates my original point of saying "go on, Divine Shot him to death" - I really only said it for comedic effect.

It's a sustain power, as in you obviously have it active ahead of time.


Of course, if you want to construct a more sensible test, then yes, maybe the psyker walked into the room with Preternatural Awareness sustained. The psyker youíve statted out, if I read him rightly, can cast PA at an average roll of 6 + 22 + 2 = 30, giving 2 levels of overbleed and a total bonus of +18 to his Initiative roll - he needs to add 9 to his casting roll to get another +6, which is moving towards the very slim end of the bell curve. It gives him a chance (as opposed to the previous certainty that the Genestealer would win initiative), but unless his AB is 6 or higher, the Genestealer still has the higher bonus.

No. It's ([6 (WP) + 6 (invocation because you may as well) + 22 (Psi 4) + 2 (Power Well) + 2 (Discipline Focus)] - 9) / 10= 2.9. So +18-24 Initiative. If you have a WP Bonus of 7, +28 Initiative. Add your Agi modifier + 2 for Paranoia (I forgot to take this in the above build, it's a great talent, especially for a high Awareness Psyker).


And of course, if we are constructing a more true-to-game test... then the Genestealer too ought to have abilities that it would be using prior to an encounter in play. Like stealth. Of course, you can say that you want Detect Life or some such power sustained as well... and thatís when as GM Iíd have to ask why, because IC you donít know heís there. And then we get into the issue of whether the psyker is walking around with Detect Life sustained because heís paranoid about this particular environment, and before you know it we need to create an entire actual game with a plotline and everything in order to fully specify all the parameters. This entirely loses the point of the original thought experiment, but it does illustrate one thing: your psyker can have a Batman Defence, where he tries to be maximally prepared, but the GM doesnít need to bother with that kind of planning. He can see exactly what youíre doing, and plan accordingly (Schroedingerís GM?).

You do realize that with Preternatural Awareness (nevermind Sense Presence), the Psyker is likely to spot the Genestealer right? He's the best class in the game bar none at detection. Fast +20 Awareness, cheap Perception advances, and another +20 bonus to Awareness from Preternatural. That Genestealer is as good as spotted. Sense Presence and Preternatural Awareness also have the added advantage of being disposable; once they've served their purpose he can dismiss them in combat so they don't impede his Psi rolls.

Also, of course the GM can ad-hoc any character to death; that doesn't negate however, the fact of the Psyker's runaway versatility and power as compared to the other PCs.


Iíd offer to run you through some kind of PBP gauntlet to prove or disprove some of these points, but I suspect you wouldnít really be interested. I think Iím done.

Not really, especially given that it'd take forever to come to an agreement on what's fair and unfair. Obviously there's a level of overwhelming force that even the Psyker build I proposed can't deal with.

LCP
2011-04-17, 11:15 AM
When you have especially resilient and/or heavily armoured foes, and the Inquisitor knows this, it's perfectly legitimate to break out the biggest guns; that's what they're for.

And if that's the kind of game you want to play, you can buy it here (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=108). The Inquisition's biggest guns are a lot bigger than even the bizzare image of a psyker with a lascannon.

As I said, I'm not going to continue the argument: I think I've expressed my point and I hope the OP and others can appreciate it. Safe to say, you say my interpretation is subjective, I agree. The thing is, so is everything you're saying about the 'logical' way for the Inquisitor to hand out lascannons. That's logical in the colloquial sense, to you. It's not a rigorously logical argument in the sense of formal logic (as you might be able to formulate if we were talking about a rules issue), and it doesn't float my boat. You say I've based my availability arguments on 'false assumptions' - the truth is, I've just based them on assumptions different from yours, and you can't demonstrate them to be objectively false any more than I can demonstrate them to be objectively true. I'd take a guess, though, that if you polled the various DH players and GMs who've posted in this thread, most of them would find the idea of lascannon-toting psykers a little fishy as well: you might not share my assumptions, but that doesn't mean that they are outliers.

If you want to play it that way, then that's fine. I'm only objecting to the idea that you can take these highly local examples of your own gaming style and then use them to generalise to the claim that the system is broken because (in part! As I said, no comment on your other psyker-related claims) of the 'fact' that psykers can lascannon everything to death.

Saldre
2011-04-17, 06:32 PM
Comments Regarding the Psyker and/Or Dark Heresy Style of Play.

I'd further like to point out that the Psyker will more or less -

1) only be able to kill 1 thing per round with that gun.

2) Won't be able to fire the gun if something is in melee with him.

3) The gun is, more or less, easily jam-able.

4) Is going to become the target of every tom, **** and harry in an encounter, along with his gun.

5) He can run into monsters quite capable of taking a hit from the gun and surviving just fine. Say an unnatural toughness*3 daemonic monster with 50 or 60 toughness, would be able to soak 36 points of damage (which is above average for the Maximal Plasma Cannon).

Granted, these monsters are rare and sometimes unique- Still, I doubt that the Psyker will be able to kill one of those just by landing a powerful hit on it (which, frankly, will be the last shot he ever fires).

All in all, LCP is right- It depends on the type of game you want to play: the system is lenient enough that you can have an Inquisitor say: "I don't want to give the guy who might turn into a daemon-host a Plasma Cannon" Regardless of the fact that his aim is perfect- because you know whats worse than a regular Daemon-host? A Daemon-host with a Plasma Cannon.

Now- you might say that this is stupid: that with favored of the warp, the odds of a Psyker turning into a daemon host are minimal- well, this is a world where people mobilize armies to hunt down a few rogue psykers in a hive. Exaggerating the threat of chaos is part of the Inquisition's MO.

Not to mention the Mechanicus- a few warp psychic phenomena cause Machine spirits to rebel: you'd think they would hand out a rare, powerful- and almost holy weapon- to someone who oozes out machine-corrupting essence whenever he wants to casts something?

Granted, I haven't played a lot of games with any psykers- and I am hosting a game with one right now: a powerful one at that (Rank 5- with a few sorcerer levels stacked on for good measure), seeing as I allowed Point Buy (and completely approved of his background and origin).

His first Power Roll- he rolls a Nine. Daemon Masked- not a big deal; but still (He only used a single Die!). He might break my game, he might not- I personally don't think he will: he might break -an encounter- sure; but I can easily adjust for the next one (by having the Big Bad Guy send a Blank, for example, to handle the Psyker).

As for all of the others- "But You can't by Raw", or "Raw doesn't say this" and "Raw doesn't do that" (One example in particular- the dodging of psychic powers); I don't think I have ever seen a system more lenient than Dark Heresy when it comes to giving the control of the mechanics to a Gm- pretty much everything everywhere is more or less left up to the GM's discretion- from the Inquisitor's whims and moods, to the availability of weapons and their price- to the monsters themselves.

You want to create a trait that lets the Arco-Flagellant Jump and Charge at the same time?

"Leaping Charge (Trait): The Arco-Flagellant is so strong, its capable of leaping at the end of a charge action."

There it is- Granted, i am not very technical or wordy when it comes to giving it the appropriate tone; but the idea is there- and the option is there as well- very much like you suggested. Keep in mind that this isn't an excuse to give the GM an "I WIN!" Button- because the Gm's Role isn't to win: its to Entertain.

Not to mention that the Psyker of yours is casting a whole lot of powers, and sustaining them as well- to maintain his constant bubble of awareness- are you factoring in those points when it comes to his power rolls?

I personally love the system, lore and general atmosphere of the game. I find it has tremendous possibilities- allowing for a wide range of games; from Call of Cthulhuesque Investigations to kick-in-door style War Scenarios, where your acolytes are pitted against horrifying odds.

The vastness of the universe is pretty much a green card for you to do what-ever you'd like and create any scenario, setting, even planet- and you can play the game's Grimdarkness straight or have the players question the morality of the Inquisition and the Imperium, all within a single game/campaign.

So Yeah, I'd definitively recommend it. It has its flaws (like all systems), of course- but nothing that you can't fix in either the spirit of the game, or the spirit of your playing style [Except for Ascension :P But like King.com said earlier in the thread, the game no longer happens at the Individual level- but evolves to a more political, grandeur scheme of things].

king.com
2011-04-17, 07:41 PM
you know whats worse then a regular Daemon-host? A Daemon-host with a Plasma Cannon.

So Yeah, I'd definitively recommend it. It has its flaws (like all systems), of course- but nothing that you can't fix in either the spirit of the game, or the spirit or your playing style [Except for Ascenscion :P But like someone else said earlier in the thread, the game no longer ahppens at the Individual level- but evolves to a more political, grandeur scheme of things].

I think that best sums it up, also im stealing that first quote.


EDIT: Oh also one other thing I like, buy a single book and you have everything you need to run the game, something thats always stopped me from getting into D&D 4e.

WitchSlayer
2011-04-17, 08:08 PM
Huh, so I just looked in this Ascension side thing and apparently there is a rule for Magos to use intelligence instead of fellowship for peer and good rep prereqs.

Pretty nice!

king.com
2011-04-17, 09:39 PM
Huh, so I just looked in this Ascension side thing and apparently there is a rule for Magos to use intelligence instead of fellowship for peer and good rep prereqs.

Pretty nice!

Yea, you may aswell pass this down the line into techpriests.

Theo Hammond
2011-04-18, 06:00 AM
Once my gaming group instigated a house-rule that, for skill rolls outside of combat your relevant stat bonus was doubled (so long as you posessed said skill), things really picked up. It meant that the acolytes could Actually Investigate Things with a good chance of success (in the areas they were supposed to be proficient in), rather than pretty much failing every skill attempt the game put their way (to the point that after a while some players felt it pointless to even try). It really opened up the possibilities for the GM too, enabled him to craft a more 'Storyteller' game.

As for the arguement of the last 2 pages? Well both viewpoints are of course perfectly plausible, and i'm sure that your mileage will vary on this according to your, and your gaming groups, usual style of play, reffing and take of the rules/fluff. For me though only one of those takes would feel like a Proper Dark Heresy Game and its not the one with the las cannon-ing psyker, and i'm fairly confident the rest of my group would echo that.

Just my opinion/preference though, nothing more.

king.com
2011-04-18, 06:23 AM
Once my gaming group instigated a house-rule that, for skill rolls outside of combat your relevant stat bonus was doubled (so long as you posessed said skill), things really picked up. It meant that the acolytes could Actually Investigate Things with a good chance of success (in the areas they were supposed to be proficient in), rather than pretty much failing every skill attempt the game put their way (to the point that after a while some players felt it pointless to even try). It really opened up the possibilities for the GM too, enabled him to craft a more 'Storyteller' game.


But thats the beauty of a session for Rank 1 acolytes. You can be foiled by a chest high wall :smallbiggrin:

Theo Hammond
2011-04-18, 07:42 AM
At least Climb, being a basic skill, means that everyone could try and fail together :)

Before we tweaked it i recall there were six of us trying to get past one single locked door (av difficulty). Three of us had the relevant skills to break-in which, even then, meant a less than 50% chance...and we all failed. So we try to bluff, had a couple of good talkers in the party, but again merely having the skills still mean a less than evens chance (and opposed). Intimidate? Nope. Demolitions? Good God man, don't even joke!

I think we ended up grenading ourselves in through the wall, because it was actually made of a less tough material than the door...

But it just felt daft when one of us was (supposedly) an Arbitrator, supposedly used to (or at least presumed capable of) stomping in and arresting baddies. Another was an assasin, supposedly used to (or presumed to be capable of) creeping in and killing baddies(/whomever). Another was a Scum etc etc

It was amusing to start with but, yes, it got to the point where we'd come up against Another Faintly Challenging Obstacle (what do you mean a Drive test? Argh! We're all gonna die!) and just start despairing.

I seem to recall the adventure in the main rules having a Plot Book that gave you important clues for how to beat the Big Bad, only you needed several degrees of success at some quite specific skills (at minuses) in order to get said clues - yeah, not gonna happen!

profitofrage
2011-04-18, 08:53 AM
Yea people need to remember theres a thing called "situational modifiers" people are meant to be using.

Picking a door? its not "oh this would be challenging for some shmuk to pick" no...its meant to mean "challenging for someone who knows how to pick locks" If the GM wants the lock to be easy..then hell give you the +20 to the test..which gets you to %50 on average. That of course being a realistic chance for a person unlocking a door.
Add in proper tools? (+20) and you got a significant chance of success.

Theo Hammond
2011-04-18, 09:18 AM
At the beginning it did take us a little while to remember that a task of 'average' difficulty actually means you're on +20% (Routine) rather than a straight roll. But even then it felt like if a task truly was Routine for your PC then he/she should be significantly better at it then a 50/50 chance (relevant equipment can add, as you say, but more often than not we found ourself devoid of such equipment - the Tools section of the DH rules wasn't as hefty as we might have liked).

If i recall right we houseruled it after thinking of classic World of Darkness, in which we had played many a fine investigative game with plebby PCs. In that an 'average' bod would have 2 dots in stat and 2 dots in skills for a total of 4 x d10 for a task in which they presume to be of average skills. Average difficulty started at 6, so they could not only expect to usually succeed but (dice willing) achive 2 successes. Even a moderately challenging task (diff 8) should see 1 success. There is risk of failure, yes, but largely a skilled operative would have some confidence of general accomplishment.

So in comparing that to the above 50/50 in DH...it didn't quite give us the game we were after / hoping for.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that the system needed this, i wouldn't presume to. It just felt a little too harsh vs the PCs given what we were used to and what we expected. Making the change felt like it better opened up the possibilities of the system for us.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-18, 09:28 AM
It also helps that, in a lot of cases, the opponents are also shmucks and succeed about as much as you do. Case in point, recently my character tried to hide a commbead on his person so he could call for help later. He didn't have concealment, but it was a basic skill. Rolled 47, 2 degrees of failure.

But, concealment is an opposed test. The guys searching him were not the best at noticing hidden things, and they failed to find it despite my craptastic roll.

It also helps that my regular GM prefers to play out speaking encounters, as opposed to just rolling a couple skills and declaring whether or not we fail.

Theo Hammond
2011-04-18, 09:48 AM
Aye, for your talkier skills we tend to take a similar route. So long as you've got something relevant on your character sheet skill-wise then generally its fine to play out the scene (in that relevant manner) without having to resort to the dice.

Surrealistik
2011-04-18, 09:58 AM
1) only be able to kill 1 thing per round with that gun.

Sure, and in cases where you need to kill multiple things, use your Force Barrage. In cases where you need to kill multiple super heavily armoured things, use an Autocannon with Precision Telekinesis.


2) Won't be able to fire the gun if something is in melee with him.

So disengage; you can still afford the _Free Action_ (since apparently the act of firing is part of the power) to manifest Divine Shot. Also, with stuff like Float, Wall Walk, and the like, as well as ridiculous Awareness and Sense Presence to never be surprised, what are you doing in melee?


3) The gun is, more or less, easily jam-able.

Your weapon can't jam on an attack you don't even roll for.


4) Is going to become the target of every tom, **** and harry in an encounter, along with his gun.

If you're packing heavy weapons, you're probably not the only one, so I doubt this. When it comes to crowd control, see Force Barrage.


5) He can run into monsters quite capable of taking a hit from the gun and surviving just fine. Say an unnatural toughness*3 daemonic monster with 50 or 60 toughness, would be able to soak 36 points of damage (which is above average for the Maximal Plasma Cannon).

5d10+10 (base) + 5*0.31 (approximate average bonus damage from Righteous Fury per 1d10) = 66.55 average damage - 36 for 30.55 wounds. That's a hell of a lot of damage for a DH level enemy, and almost certainly an instant kill. At the very least it will put virtually any DH opponent into critical damage territory. I am actually hard pressed to find a DH, pre-Ascension enemy that wouldn't one shot or 'critical'.


All in all, LCP is right- It depends on the type of game you want to play: the system is lenient enough that you can have an Inquisitor say: "I don't want to give the guy who might turn into a daemon-host a Plasma Cannon" Regardless of the fact that his aim is perfect- because you know whats worse than a regular Daemon-host? A Daemon-host with a Plasma Cannon.

Now- you might say that this is stupid: that with favored of the warp, the odds of a Psyker turning into a daemon host are minimal- well, this is a world where people mobilize armies to hunt down a few rogue psykers in a hive. Exaggerating the threat of chaos is part of the Inquisition's MO.

It's also stupid because the Lascannon isn't going to make _that_ much more of a difference.


Not to mention the Mechanicus- a few warp psychic phenomena cause Machine spirits to rebel: you'd think they would hand out a rare, powerful- and almost holy weapon- to someone who oozes out machine-corrupting essence whenever he wants to casts something?

That's not true at all.


Granted, I haven't played a lot of games with any psykers- and I am hosting a game with one right now: a powerful one at that (Rank 5- with a few sorcerer levels stacked on for good measure), seeing as I allowed Point Buy (and completely approved of his background and origin).

His first Power Roll- he rolls a Nine. Daemon Masked- not a big deal; but still (He only used a single Die!). He might break my game, he might not- I personally don't think he will: he might break -an encounter- sure; but I can easily adjust for the next one (by having the Big Bad Guy send a Blank, for example, to handle the Psyker).

What does this anecdote prove save that your Psyker was unlucky. That said, if he's well built and played, a Psyker with Sorcery probably will do some serious damage the moment he gains access to Favoured of the Warp. Also, it's less that DH Psykers will break the game, so much as they will be heads and shoulders more powerful than everyone else. Legitimately breaking the game is what Psykers do in Ascension.


As for all of the others- "But You can't by Raw", or "Raw doesn't say this" and "Raw doesn't do that" (One example in particular- the dodging of psychic powers); I don't think I have ever seen a system more lenient than Dark Heresy when it comes to giving the control of the mechanics to a Gm- pretty much everything everywhere is more or less left up to the GM's discretion- from the Inquisitor's whims and moods, to the availability of weapons and their price- to the monsters themselves.

Sure, you can ad-hoc the Psyker to death; that goes for any character. Again, he's still leaps and bounds more powerful and versatile than other career.


You want to create a trait that lets the Arco-Flagellant Jump and Charge at the same time?

"Leaping Charge (Trait): The Arco-Flagellant is so strong, its capable of leaping at the end of a charge action."

There it is- Granted, i am not very technical or wordy when it comes to giving it the appropriate tone; but the idea is there- and the option is there as well- very much like you suggested.

He still couldn't reach the Psyker; I guess you'd like to give him a jetpack now.


Not to mention that the Psyker of yours is casting a whole lot of powers, and sustaining them as well- to maintain his constant bubble of awareness- are you factoring in those points when it comes to his power rolls?

Preternatural Awareness is disposable; the moment you win initiative, you dismiss it on your turn.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-18, 10:23 AM
Aye, for your talkier skills we tend to take a similar route. So long as you've got something relevant on your character sheet skill-wise then generally its fine to play out the scene (in that relevant manner) without having to resort to the dice.

Sometimes it doesn't even come down to skills, long as the character is acting in a way that fits them. I wouldn't expect a techpriest to have the smoothest tongue around, or much EXP spent on social skills, but even he could manage to convince someone of something if he took the right tack with it.

Provided he was being true to his character, I wouldn't mind.

MickJay
2011-04-18, 11:23 AM
That's not true at all.

Tech Scorn, Phenomenon which happens on a 69-71 roll.

Also, picking Sorcery is rarely an option in a standard DH game.

LCP
2011-04-18, 11:25 AM
I'm curious, Surrealistik - you have these strong opinions about the style with which you play Dark Heresy. Do you have any stories about your own experiences playing the game? I for one would be interested to hear any anecdotes of how your gaming sessions with such characters have played out, and how your own GM has treated it (unless you GM yourself?).

Ranos
2011-04-18, 11:56 AM
Also, picking Sorcery is rarely an option in a standard DH game.
Wait what ? There's tons of ways to get sorcery in DH.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-18, 12:10 PM
Most of them require you to be a bit of a higher rank, though, and unless you start high up during character creation, you'd need to have a good IC reason for the character to go down that path.

Ranos
2011-04-18, 12:18 PM
Well, obviously you can't have it at rank 1, yeah. As for requiring a particular reason...eh, not really. If you needed to roleplay a reason for every talent you take on-screen, the game wouldn't get very far.

Drglenn
2011-04-18, 12:42 PM
Wait what ? There's tons of ways to get sorcery in DH.

I think he was more referring to the fact that it's very radical/heretical act and most inquisitors wouldn't allow their acolytes to practice it

Ranos
2011-04-18, 12:47 PM
Hiding it is half the fun though :smallbiggrin:
Much funnier to be a sorcerer right under the nose of a puritan, monodominant inquisitor than a radical who'll let you do whatever anyway.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-18, 02:51 PM
Well, obviously you can't have it at rank 1, yeah. As for requiring a particular reason...eh, not really. If you needed to roleplay a reason for every talent you take on-screen, the game wouldn't get very far.

Oh, no, not every talent. But Sorcery is a rather serious thing, and the acolytes of an Inquisitor in particular would have been warned against the lure of Chaos. I wouldn't attach quite such a serious RP requirement to something like Weapon Training, or Rapid Reaction. It just seems to me that Sorcery isn't really something that just anyone could pick up. Malefic Scholar even specifies such a requirement in order to take the alternate rank.

hamishspence
2011-04-18, 02:54 PM
Recent fluff has the Grey Knights as sorcerers (much to the ire of old-school Daemonhunters players)-

they're protected from the corruption it brings because "their geneseed carries the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul"- thus ensuring sorcery doesn't corrupt them.

Plus, for the same reason, their souls are "unpalatable" to daemons.

Ranos
2011-04-18, 03:19 PM
Well it does kind of make sense. The fluff tends to imply that the Emperor used a lot of sorcery and made some deals with Chaos without being corrupted.
Of course, it could also be that he WAS, in fact, corrupted by chaos, but damn good at hiding it. And that the grey knights inherited that quality. Hell, that would explain a lot of things.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-19, 01:07 AM
On the other hand, The Emperor condemned Magnus the Red for practicing forbidden sorcery. It's possible the Emperor was just a really powerful psyker.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-19, 01:08 AM
On the other hand, The Emperor condemned Magnus the Red for practicing forbidden sorcery. It's possible the Emperor was just a really powerful psyker.

"Just a really powerful psyker" is kind of an understatement, since "really powerful psykers" are capable of ridiculous feats of ridiculousness.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-19, 04:13 AM
They do, however, remain distinct from sorcerers, which was the point.

Theo Hammond
2011-04-19, 04:41 AM
I seem to recall from oooooold GW textual sources (Legion of the Damned, Realms of Chaos, somewhere around there) that The Emperor was the last remaining of a group of uber-powerful long lived earth shamen, and he has never been much more defined than that. So i'd say that psionics, sorcery and all other manner of shenanigans are (were) plausibly his to command, and operated uniquely to him (i think he may even have had a hand in killing off the other shamen when he united Earth/Terra). Something of a special case though so he'd really rather others who were less able didn't start mucking around in dirty waters (yep, looking at YOU Magnus!).

Of course whether the above still counts as 'cannon' for the Emperor, either for GW or Dark Heresy, i have no idea. There was an actual published awful Black Library novel that painted him as a wierd bitter ranting nutter for example, rather than a husk on life support, and yet i can't imagine that is cannon.

Theo Hammond
2011-04-19, 04:52 AM
Bah, looks like i only partially remembered some bits and pieces;

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind

Thank you internet for being a better memory than i could ever hope to have!

hamishspence
2011-04-19, 08:20 AM
There was an actual published awful Black Library novel that painted him as a wierd bitter ranting nutter for example, rather than a husk on life support, and yet i can't imagine that is cannon.

I'm guessing that's Draco- first book in the Inquisition War trilogy. He is still a husk on life support- but he speaks into the title character's mind.

Surrealistik
2011-04-19, 11:37 AM
Tech Scorn, Phenomenon which happens on a 69-71 roll.

Yes, it's the exception, not the rule, or something which happens 'whenever he wants to cast something'.


Also, picking Sorcery is rarely an option in a standard DH game.

What Ranos said.


I'm curious, Surrealistik - you have these strong opinions about the style with which you play Dark Heresy. Do you have any stories about your own experiences playing the game? I for one would be interested to hear any anecdotes of how your gaming sessions with such characters have played out, and how your own GM has treated it (unless you GM yourself?).

I have no specific crowning moments of awesome to relate, but my psyker played like a Mary Sue that was good if not the best at achieving almost everything the group set out to do, and was indisputably the best at certain things (interrogating, detection, combat, tracking, intel gathering in general, healing, tech-use were a few). About the only thing I could call a bit of a blind spot was certain types of social interactions, and even that was brought up to passable levels with powers. By the time I hit Psi 5, I actually had to enter into something of a gentleman's agreement with the GM so the other characters had more of a role during the game.

I will say that in the earlier ranks however, he was much less impressive, particularly since I was focusing on pumping WP at the exclusion of most else.

MickJay
2011-04-19, 11:57 AM
What Ranos said.

What Drglenn and Destro Yersul said. :smallsigh:

Surrealistik
2011-04-19, 12:23 PM
What Drglenn and Destro Yersul said. :smallsigh:

Picking up Sorcery as a Psyker is pretty damned easy; they have both the stats and the knowledge skills for it.

comicshorse
2011-04-19, 12:31 PM
Picking up Sorcery as a Psyker is pretty damned easy; they have both the stats and the knowledge skills for it.

But ,as far as I can tell from the background, they will likely be executed the first time they're caught using it

Ranos
2011-04-19, 12:37 PM
But ,as far as I can tell from the background, they will likely be executed the first time they're caught using it
Depends who catches him, and whether he can be silenced in time :smallbiggrin:
But yeah, psykers have it pretty damn easy when it comes to sorcery. The alternate paths even make it clear that there's no research involved, that stuff just comes to them naturally.

Honestly, I wouldn't force an adept player to make a big deal out of learning sorcery either, even if they do have a restriction on the malefic scholar. Adepts need all the help they can get. If you can call learning sorcery "help" :smallamused:

comicshorse
2011-04-19, 12:46 PM
But yeah, psykers have it pretty damn easy when it comes to sorcery. The alternate paths even make it clear that there's no research involved, that stuff just comes to them naturally.



" quicker, easier the Dark Side is......"
Er sorry, wrong franchise :smallsmile:

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-19, 12:50 PM
I'd stick in RP requirements on anyone who wanted sorcery, really. At very least, they should have a reason for the character to take that route.

Also, while adepts may not be the best at combat, that's not everything DH is about. There's plenty of investigation and other such stuff as well, and they're really good at that.

They can even be good at combat, if they're lucky enough. I ran a game with one who carted around this massive handcannon and blew everything away with it.

Ranos
2011-04-19, 12:59 PM
True, true. Still, you have to admit that even in those areas, they're not much better than the arbitrator or the cleric. What they do well is knowledge skills, and really, no matter how good you are, rolling knowledge checks is just not an exciting party role.

Splatbooks like radical's handbook and blood of martyrs did a good job bumping them up in power though.

MickJay
2011-04-19, 01:12 PM
True, true. Still, you have to admit that even in those areas, they're not much better than the arbitrator or the cleric. What they do well is knowledge skills, and really, no matter how good you are, rolling knowledge checks is just not an exciting party role.

That depends on the GM - you can give extra info to the adept on a piece of paper, and see if he shares it or not (especially if he's got an agenda of his own).

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-19, 01:21 PM
Yeah, with the expanded rules in the Inquisitor's Handbook, the adept and his knowledge skills can be really useful. If you're not in a hurry, an appropriate Scholastic Lore test can increase any related skill by +10, and both common lore and forbidden lore can give bonuses to interactions with certain groups.

The adept is just more suited to background roles than at the forefront of combat. He's a support character. Not particularly good at doing anything by himself, but invaluable as part of a team.

hamishspence
2011-04-19, 03:04 PM
" quicker, easier the Dark Side is......"
Er sorry, wrong franchise :smallsmile:

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the warp"

"If once you start down the path of heresy, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will."

Ranos
2011-04-19, 04:00 PM
"I felt a great disturbance in the Warp, as if millions of voices...Oh wait, nevermind, that's just the weekly exterminatus. Is it Tuesday yet ?"

sengmeng
2011-04-19, 04:10 PM
real bullet use in vietnam was 300 rounds per kill.

The Glyphstone
2011-04-19, 05:04 PM
real bullet use in vietnam was 300 rounds per kill.

And this is relevant....how?

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-19, 05:05 PM
And this is relevant....how?

He is a bit late to the conversation, but near the start of the thread some dude was complaining about how a Guardsman, despite being a trained military man (for a given value of "trained") couldn't hit ass.

There were some points brought up about how suppressing fire is a far more important aspect of modern warfare, which leads to a high relative shot-to-kill ratio.

The Glyphstone
2011-04-19, 05:07 PM
He is a bit late to the conversation, but near the start of the thread some dude was complaining about how a Guardsman, despite being a trained military man (for a given value of "trained") couldn't hit ass.

There were some points brought up about how suppressing fire is a far more important aspect of modern warfare, which leads to a high relative shot-to-kill ratio.

Ah, roger roger.

Weasel of Doom
2011-04-20, 03:47 AM
I've never found psykers to be at all overpowered. I recognise that if you play an extremely strict RAW game with the rules all interpreted how Surrealistik sees them then sure they might be broken, this hasn't been the case for me. If a psyker player tries to break the game they probably can, if the GM doesn't use the many options they have to stop this, but I don't that's a fair test of the game; not everyone wants to play a darkholder voidborn with living nightmare who has pumped WP to the exclusion of all else and that's the benchmark you're using to test the game.

I've also never heard of anyone playing DH with point buy so maybe point buy combined with the ability to acquire whatever weapon you want and an active attempt to break the game do in fact break the game. I still don't care, all my experiences with the game have been positive and have not suffered from any of the problems Surrealistik complains of.



Getting hurt? That is the LEAST if my problems.

Oh no, in the Grim Dark blah blah blah, there are horribly incompetent people how have no business holding the business end of lasgun.

Anyways, a 40% hit rate is a horribly incompetent solider with no business on the battlefield, let alone an Inquisitor's Retinue.


40%? Really?

Say 30 base BS, 2 advances (pretty easy even at low-levels) 40, full-auto +20, aiming +10, more aiming +10, surprise +20 = 100% chance of hitting.

That'd be an average of 5 hits, pretty respectable considering this is with a below average roll on BS.

Sure, you have to need to aim and get surprise for this to work but DH is a system where you really have to fight smart. The party should try and get the drop on their enemies, plan combats and use the enviroment to thier advantage. That's one of the things I really about the system. We have removed the limit on stacking modifiers though, maybe that makes a huge difference.

Drglenn
2011-04-20, 04:26 AM
40%? Really?

Say 30 base BS, 2 advances (pretty easy even at low-levels) 40, full-auto +20, aiming +10, more aiming +10, surprise +20 = 100% chance of hitting.

That'd be an average of 5 hits, pretty respectable considering this is with a below average roll on BS.

Sure, you have to need to aim and get surprise for this to work but DH is a system where you really have to fight smart. The party should try and get the drop on their enemies, plan combats and use the enviroment to thier advantage. That's one of the things I really about the system.

You could even drop half the aiming and the surprise if you're at point blank (1-3m) range (+30 to hit). Or just half the aiming if you're at your weapon's short (half the listed) range (+10 to hit)

Theo Hammond
2011-04-20, 04:46 AM
Thats reminded me of something that caused some problems in our game - supression.

It seemed ridiculously easy for the PCs to just supress wholse swathes of bad guys, virtually stopping some fights before they could ever start (and of course it could go against the PCs too with similar effectiveness). In the end we basically made a gentleman's agreeement to just not use it against each other.

Were we playing it right?

Its a full action with an automatic weapon, 45 degreee arc at half weapon range (so particularly awesome in corridors). No need to roll to make it happen, it just does, and when it does all effected folk have to make a rather tricksy -20 pinning (WP) test or be pinned (which is nasty - half actions only, MUST move to cover if not in it, can only retreat if in cover already, -20BS, test on straight WP at end of turn to end condition). Also you still get a -20BS chance to hit the effected baddies too.

Maybe its because the party were in a space-hulk-ish scenario for quite a while that the geography and foes combined to make this action particularly effective, but it just seemed a little too good at totally locking up assailants.

Ah yes, i remember our other conundrum with it. Supressing fire is issued. Baddies are pinned. End of turn baddies test WP and are unpinned. Before their next action supressing fire is issued again (same source, same arc) - do they have to re-test for pinning all over again back on -20WP?

Weasel of Doom
2011-04-20, 05:10 AM
Thats reminded me of something that caused some problems in our game - supression.


Suppression can be pretty nasty. Tactics my party uses when suppressed by filthy heretics is to try and outflank them or otherwise use stealth and alleyways to get to where we can shoot at or charge them, lob a couple of grenades at them from around a corner or just dose up one frenzon (making them immune to pinning as per the errata) and charge straight through the gunfire.

profitofrage
2011-04-20, 05:17 AM
Supression fire IS meant to be VERY good. But there are many MANY things that can get around it. These range from drugs to various fearless beasts. Plus you have to remember there is a willpower test involved so your not going to pin everyone all the time. Combine that with the fact that anyone with an automatic weapon can employ this same tactic against you makes it not so much an issue as a "who goes first" Supression fire is good because its meant to take the fore in most shootouts. Its the job the "adept" does with an autogun since he cant do much else e.t.c

If you were having issues its probably because your GM wasnt experienced enough to know to expect it and work around it. I know in my games supression fire is a nessesity. People who are supressed? Then move, they use there half actions to navigate and spread out, throw grenades, half action aim, duck down behind cover giving total cover AP. Granted these are for "high level and or smart" foes but theres always a way to play an enemy harder if you try.

Theo Hammond
2011-04-20, 06:04 AM
If you were having issues its probably because your GM wasnt experienced enough to know to expect it and work around it.

Oh i agree, it was our first play-through from 1st to 5th and for an action that never really got used in our WoD games i think it came as something of a surprise to all that it was so effective in this system (so why wouldn't you use it!?). Certainly in our return to the system its clear we need to be more mindful of just how tactical combat can, and should, be. You've got an awful lot of options there to be used and so we defs needs to be careful not to sink into any sort of 'run and gun' mindset that other systems allow for.

profitofrage
2011-04-20, 06:16 AM
Yea, I its really easy to make mistakes in DH if your the GM.
I thought id throw a boss fight at my low level party in the form of a gang boss. Dual wielding Auto pistols would be badass. The party shouldnt have a problem taking him.
In one round he reduced all of them to half wounds and one of them into crits :smalleek:

Not to mention the time my npc's discovered the fullaction aim....an autogun with +20 with another +20 for automatic results in PC's turning into red goo.
Frankly supression is needed to ensure that enemies DONT get the chance to use fullactions

Surrealistik
2011-04-20, 10:56 AM
I've never found psykers to be at all overpowered. I recognise that if you play an extremely strict RAW game with the rules all interpreted how Surrealistik sees them then sure they might be broken, this hasn't been the case for me. If a psyker player tries to break the game they probably can, if the GM doesn't use the many options they have to stop this, but I don't that's a fair test of the game; not everyone wants to play a darkholder voidborn with living nightmare who has pumped WP to the exclusion of all else and that's the benchmark you're using to test the game.

WP is pumped to the exclusion of all else only at the earlier ranks. If you start out at a higher rank, you never have to go through that painful experience to begin with.

Further, you don't _have_ to go Darkholder Voidborn with LN to be overpowered as a Psyker, but it obviously helps aggrandize your strength quite a bit.

Third, I don't see the GM 'stopping' it and yet simultaneously playing fair. You can argue that the Psyker doesn't get a heavy weapon sure, but that doesn't stop him from still being better than everyone at almost everything.


I've also never heard of anyone playing DH with point buy so maybe point buy combined with the ability to acquire whatever weapon you want and an active attempt to break the game do in fact break the game. I still don't care, all my experiences with the game have been positive and have not suffered from any of the problems Surrealistik complains of.


It should be noted that point buy isn't necessary to build an uber-psyker as I believe I've demonstrated (and yes it is used). That said, assigning the stats you roll is a _very_ common rule (probably more common than pure random stat generation), and safely assures you have a psyker that scores a 15+ WP on his rolls, which means 70+ WP when your WP is maxed.

TomBaker
2011-04-21, 11:12 AM
Well apart from massive derailment into arguments over psykers, in response to anyone reading the OP's question it is a awesomely fun game system.

Also I know a few people have mentioned that combat for PCs can be squishy, but I've been running the purge the unclean's first mission and found that the party absolutely killed everything in it's path. And it wasn't the psyker being jack of all trades, it was actually the assassin.

Also psykers with MP Lascannons: probably not what Rick and Jervis had in mind when defining cannon.

The Glyphstone
2011-04-21, 12:42 PM
Well apart from massive derailment into arguments over psykers, in response to anyone reading the OP's question it is a awesomely fun game system.

Also I know a few people have mentioned that combat for PCs can be squishy, but I've been running the purge the unclean's first mission and found that the party absolutely killed everything in it's path. And it wasn't the psyker being jack of all trades, it was actually the assassin.

Also psykers with MP Lascannons: probably not what Rick and Jervis had in mind when defining cannon.

Probably. So if we want to give the psyker a heavy weapon, we'll need to...
...
:smallcool:
...
Fire the canon.

SamL
2011-04-21, 12:47 PM
My friend has been GM a campaign that has been very enjoyable so far. I would definitely recommend starting from level one, though. First of all, it's just very rewarding seeing your character gradually go from completely pathetic to badass, and secondly because of how the gameplay has a way of tempting characters out of optimized builds to pick and choose other skills.

After a few months of hard fought gameplay, our core party (a biomanti-focused voidborn psyker, an Imperial-world guardsman, A Melfian noble arbite, a voidborn assassin and myself, a hive scummer) had just started to get cocky because we had just reached rank 5 and were finally at the level where we could reliably gun down mooks. Of course, we were then ambushed by a rival acolyte party who would have killed our guardsman had our psyker not used his biomantic powers to save his life (as it is, he lost an arm and both he and our assassin had to burn fate points to survive).

As for our psyker, he's started to get fairly powerful with his healing and biolightning, but he has also accidentally summoned a Plaguebearer to attack the party, and generally gets shot to pieces if he starts manifesting psychic powers in combat situations. This plus our GMs adherence to the 41st millenium's general attitude of "every psyker is a potential witch" mistrust has kept him out of the "lascannon-gamebreaker" mold I keep hearing about for now :smalltongue:

As for me, I'm enjoying the Hell out of being hive scum. Good mix of combat, fellowship and even some investigative abilities, and I'm the only player who hasn't had to burn a fate point yet, though I did come close when a giant clock exploded right next to me.

Lord Herman
2011-04-24, 12:25 PM
Hooo boy. While pursuing an escaped psyker, the cleric in my campaign discovered the remains of one of Lorgar's warships at the heart of an Imperial space station (which he already knew was built around a - supposedly - cleansed space hulk). The surviving Word Bearer crew turned the wrecked ship into a great cathedral to the Ruinous Powers. And they've recruited quite a few followers from the millions of people living on the station. So he's now hiding in the upper galleries of a dark cathedral filled with tens of thousands of Chaos worshippers and almost a full company of Word Bearers.

I think the cleric will want to report this to his Inquisitor. :smalleek:

Drglenn
2011-04-24, 03:08 PM
Hooo boy. While pursuing an escaped psyker, the cleric in my campaign discovered the remains of one of Lorgar's warships at the heart of an Imperial space station (which he already knew was built around a - supposedly - cleansed space hulk). The surviving Word Bearer crew turned the wrecked ship into a great cathedral to the Ruinous Powers. And they've recruited quite a few followers from the millions of people living on the station. So he's now hiding in the upper galleries of a dark cathedral filled with tens of thousands of Chaos worshippers and almost a full company of Word Bearers.

I think the cleric will want to report this to his Inquisitor. :smalleek:

Yea, that sounds like something that the Inquisition would mobilise a large portion of the sector to deal with (Including his own ship(s) and any nearby Imperial Guard and/or Marines he can get his hands on)

gdiddy
2011-04-24, 11:26 PM
Basically, the narrative of this thread is an example of Dark Heresy's design and flaws.

You can play it really fun, and have lots of awesome Grendel-type stories, where the likelihood of failure is so high that when successes do happen, they're remembered forever. So great are these successes, you may be commemorated in an actual DH book.

Or you can obsess over how to beat it. You can beat it. But you end up as a "Mary Sue" who does everything better than the rest of the party, with no actual moments of cool, just constant joyless success.

The philosophies of the system and game are pretty well laid out on the table. It has the tools to make a broken character, but it's like jazz. If you make that broken character, you'll never know the fun the rest of us are having.

jaybird
2012-03-05, 11:03 PM
Basically, the narrative of this thread is an example of Dark Heresy's design and flaws.

You can play it really fun, and have lots of awesome Grendel-type stories, where the likelihood of failure is so high that when successes do happen, they're remembered forever. So great are these successes, you may be commemorated in an actual DH book.

Or you can obsess over how to beat it. You can beat it. But you end up as a "Mary Sue" who does everything better than the rest of the party, with no actual moments of cool, just constant joyless success.

The philosophies of the system and game are pretty well laid out on the table. It has the tools to make a broken character, but it's like jazz. If you make that broken character, you'll never know the fun the rest of us are having.

This, so much. The psychopathic delusional redemptionist, the mentally shattered pyrokinetic, the foppish noble arbitrator, the dual laspistol-wielding rake...all of these and more are my PCs. They're optimizers, but they do it within their character archetypes. Lightning attack might be more optimal for the Redemptionist cleric, but Frenzy only lets him all-out attack, and by the Emperor, he's going to all-out attack with Frenzy, because that's just how much he hates the impure and unclean. At the climax of our last session he smote a Daemonhost over the head with a charm in his possession (I ruled that it had broken the Daemonhost's unholy runes, removing its armour) on a charge before chainswording it in the chest. End result was a Daemonhost-shaped scorch mark on the ground as it burned away back to the Warp and a Cleric at Critical 2 leaning on his chainsword, barely standing, while still defiantly roaring litanies of hatred and purification.

That's what Dark Heresy looks like in my head.

Particle_Man
2012-03-06, 01:37 AM
Modifiers are you friend in combat.

Oddly, I had a meelee character that charged into combat. Friends would throw grenades but would be so bad at it that the grenades would bounce back and hurt them more than me!

What else, "fearless" sounds cool but can be a trap (sometimes you really need to cut and run).

It was fun, but don't take it seriously and don't fall in love with a character too much. They are mortal, they can be corrupted, they can go mad.

Fearan
2012-03-06, 06:53 PM
It was fun, but don't take it seriously and don't fall in love with a character too much. They are mortal, they can be corrupted, they can go mad.
Unless, of course they are Darkholder Living Nightmare Psyker (which sounds awfuly similar to "Pun-Pun")

WitchSlayer
2012-03-08, 01:33 AM
Unless, of course they are Darkholder Living Nightmare Psyker (which sounds awfuly similar to "Pun-Pun")

... Or an Ascension Tech-Priest.

king.com
2012-03-08, 02:41 AM
Unless, of course they are Darkholder Living Nightmare Psyker (which sounds awfuly similar to "Pun-Pun")

Except for the whole, "entire division of the Imperial Inquisition dedicated to taking down these kinds of people and the vast array of technology used to do so". Kinda takes away their edge.


... Or an Ascension Tech-Priest.

Everyones pun-pun in Ascension...except for storm troopers

Prophaniti
2012-03-08, 03:03 PM
I really enjoy the system itself. Good mix of randomization vs stats/builds, good balance, ups the importance of situational modifiers (which ups the importance of tactics and planning), and so forth. 'Course, the base system did that back in WFRP already, but I was pleased with most of the final product when they moved it to 40k. It's true that psykers can feel overpowered to varying degrees, depending on how your group plays. In our current Death Watch campaign the librarian likes to throw around Push-level Smites all the time, but this has caught friendlies more than once and rolled Perils a few times (mostly they opted to use a fate point to re-roll these, which is what fate points are for after all). And, frankly, it's about on par with what our dedicated melee or shooty characters can do with good tactics and rolls.

In Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader it's not too hard to balance these sorts of things, (got a psyker that's always one-shotting things? that's what cannon-fodder is for!) and even in Death Watch I've come very close to killing characters in one round without really trying. The thing that I've noticed is that the combat balance can be quite delicate, if your goal is to find that just right sort of challenge, where they feel pushed but not shoved, if you take my meaning. My recommendation most of the time would be not to bother trying to hit that sweet spot, but let it fall in the ballpark. If players are not using their fate points to avoid dying when they get caught by someone on overwatch or a grenade, then you're probably not challenging them enough. If they run out of fate points in the first few rounds of a fight, you're probably challenging them too much.

I had to laugh a bit at the person complaining that Death Watch is nothing but go here and kill that. Since the GM has full control over the construction and goals of any specific mission from start to finish, whose fault would that be? :smalltongue: There are plenty of ways to snap the leash on a group whose first thought is to kill it with fire, even staying purely within canon. Indeed, a Death Watch Kill Team accidentally screwing over a system by glassing everything downrange would be entirely in keeping with canon, and humanity's luck in the 41st millennium in general...

a_humble_lich
2012-03-08, 05:20 PM
Everyones pun-pun in Ascension...except for storm troopers


Oh god yes. I am just wrapping up an Ascension/Rogue Trader game and the last session the party took out:

2 Chaos Hellbade Fighters
A large hoard of Chaos troupers
A hoard of Chaos Traitor Marines
A Warhound Titan
An Ascension level Sorceress/Daemon Prince
A slightly weakened Greater Daemon of Tzeentch (it had slightly fewer wounds than normal)
A full power Greater Daemon of Slannessh


Now this was in two separate fights, and for the the first fight they were in vehicles, yet still.... At one point the Grey Knight managed to soak Warp Fire for 60 points of damage!