[Exalted 2e] Reynard's Hopeful Guide to Ballancing Some* Artifacts**.

[Reynard]

* Close Combat
** But only their raw stats.

New artifact base melee weapon rules.

These rules are an effort to try to correct the wild, drunken way the artifact weapons in Exalted have been handled, by attempting to make them more balanced in comparison to each other.

[Rating x3] points to spend. Capped at 9 points. As higher-rated artifact weapons should have cool and unusual powers, not just more stats.

Every weapon starts with:
Speed: 5 | Damage +3L | Accuracy +2 | Defense +2 | Rate 2 | Str Rating: 3 | Tags: -

Attunement varies by Rating:
1-dot: Attunement 3
2-dot: Attunement 5
3-dot: Attunement 8

-----
Changes:

> -1 point changes.
Lowering the Str rating.
Increasing Rate.
Increasing Accuracy to 3.
Increasing Defence to 3.
Increasing Damage by +1 (up to +6).
Add Martial Arts Tag.
Add Reach Tag.
Add Clinch Tag.
Add Disarming Tag.

> -2 point changes:
Increasing Accuracy to 4 from 3.
Increasing Defence to 4 from 3.
Decreasing Speed to 4 from 3.
Increasing Damage by +1 (+7 and up).
Add Piercing Tag.
Add Overwhelming Tag. (Overwhelming Damage should be one third the regular weapon Damage.)
Add Lance Tag. (Lance damage is 1.5 times regular damage.)

> -3 point changes.
Increasing Accuracy to 5 from 4.
Increasing Defence to 5 from 4.
Decreasing Speed to 3 from 4.

--

> +1 point changes.
Decreasing Accuracy to 1 and 0.
Decreasing Defence to 1 and 0.
Lower Damage by 1.
Increase required Strength rating by 1.
Make Damage Bashing.

> +2 point changes.
Increase Speed to 6.
Decrease Rate to 1.
Decreasing Accuracy to -1. (No lower)
Decreasing Defense to -1. (No lower)

--

No points changes:
> Make the weapon two-handed:
Adds the '2' Tag.
Doubles damage. (After all other points are spent)
+1 Speed.
-1 Accuracy.
-1 Defense.
-1 Rate.
All changes happen at end of calculation. This can reduce Accuracy and Defense past 0.

Editable GoogleDocs of this stuff: Here. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18aMFSpaq6TVo_61HbpKF2W3w-QyABvsRbTf0xnxrW-E/edit?hl=en&authkey=CIjy840K#)

[Reynard]

Example versions of Core Weapons:

Here, I will translate the existing stats of the core weapons into this system. If there are wild aberrations in the amount of points, I will offer a different statline, that’s in line with my system.

-------

• Short Daiklave.
Speed: 4 | Damage +4L | Accuracy +4 | Defense +1 | Rate 2 | Str Rating: 1 | Tags: -Core Points Spent:
1: Damage 4L
2: Min Strength to 1
2: Speed 4
3: Accuracy to +4

Points Regained:
1: Defense to +1

Total points: 7 (of 3)

In this system, 1-dot version:
Speed: 5 | Damage +3L | Accuracy +3 | Defense +1 | Rate 2 | Str Rating: 1 | Tags: -Core Points Spent:
2: Min Strength to 1
2: Accuracy to +3

Points Regained:
1: Defense to +1

Total points: 3 (of 3)

-------

•• Daiklaive:
Speed 5 | Accuracy +3 | Damage +6L | Defense: +2 | Rate: 3 | Min Str: 2Points Spent:
1: Accuracy +3
1: Rate 3
1: Min Str 2
3: Damage 6L
Total Points: 6 (of 6)

-------

•• Reaper Daiklave
Speed 4 | Accuracy +4 | Damage +4L | Defense: +1 | Rate: 3 | Min Str: 2Points Spent:
1: Damage 4L
1: Rate 3
1: Min Str 2
2: Speed 4
3: Accuracy +4
+1: Defense +1
Total points: 8 (of 6)

-------

•• Reaver Daiklave
Speed 5 | Accuracy +3 | Damage +9L/3 | Defense: +0 | Rate: 2 | Min Str: 2 | Tags: O
Points Spent:
1: Accuracy to +3
1: Min Strength to 2
2: Overwhelming Tag
9: Damage to 9

Points Regained:
2: Defense to 0

Total points: 11 (of 6)

-------

•• Wavecleaver Daiklave
Speed 5 | Accuracy +3 | Damage +7L/3 | Defense: +1 | Rate: 2 | Min Str: 2 | Tags: O
Points Spent:
1: Accuracy to +3
1: Min Strength to 2
2: Overwhelming Tag
7: Damage to 7

Points Regained:
1: Defense to 1

Total points: 10 (of 6)

-------

•• Direlance
Speed 5 | Accuracy +2 | Damage +8L/12L | Defense: +2 | Rate: 2 | Min Str: 2 | Tags: 2/L/R
Points Spent:
1: Accuracy to +3
1: Defense to +3
1: Min Str 2
1: Reach Tag
2: Overwhelming Tag
2: Speed to 4

Two-Weapon Tag.

Total points: 7 (of 6)

-------

•• Goremaul
Speed 5 | Accuracy +1 | Damage +16B/4 | Defense: +1 | Rate: 2 | Min Str: 2 | Tags: O
Points Spent:
1: Min Strength to 2
2: Overwhelming Tag
23: Damage to 16

Points Regained:
1: Accuracy to +1
1: Defense to +1
1: Damage is Bashing.

Total points: 23 (of 6)

-------

•• Grimcleaver
Speed 5 | Accuracy +2 | Damage +12L/4 | Defense: +1 | Rate: 2 | Min Str: 2 | Tags: O
Points Spent:
1: Min Strength to 2
2: Overwhelming Tag
19: Damage to 12

Points Regained:
1: Defense to +1

Total points: 21 (of 6)

-------

••• Grand Daiklave
Speed 5 | Accuracy +2 | Damage +10L/3 | Defense: +0 | Rate: 1 | Min Str: 3 | Tags: 2, O, P, R
Points Spent:
1: Reach Tag
1: Accuracy to +3
2: Speed to 4
2: Piercing Tag
2: Overwhelming Tag
2: Damage 5L
+1: Defense +1
0: Two-Handed Template.
Total points: 9 (of 9)

-------

••• Grand Goremaul
Speed 5 | Accuracy +2 | Damage +16L/5 | Defense: -1 | Rate: 1 | Min Str: 4 | Tags: 2, O, P, R
1: Accuracy to +3
1: Reach Tag
2: Overwhelming Tag.
2: Piercing Tag.
2: Speed to 4.
7: Damage to 8.

Points Regained:
1: Strength to 4
2: Defense to 0

Two-Handed Template.

Total Points 12 (of 9)

-------
••• Grand Grimcleaver
Speed 6 | Accuracy +2 | Damage +14L/4 | Defense: -2 | Rate: 2 | Min Str: 3 | Tags: 2, O, P, R
1: Accuracy to +3
1: Reach Tag.
2: Overwhelming Tag.
2: Piercing Tag.
2: Speed to 4.
5: Damage to 7.

Points Regained:
1: Strength to 4
4: Defense to -1

Two-Handed Template.

Total Points 8 (of 9)

-------
••• Grand Grimscythe
Speed 6 | Accuracy +2 | Damage +14L/4 | Defense: -2 | Rate: 2 | Min Str: 3 | Tags: 2, O, P, RPoints Spent:
1: Accuracy +3
1: Rate 3
1: Reach Tag
2: Overwhelming Tag.
2: Piercing Tag.
5: Damage to 7.
Points Regained:
4: Defense -1
Total Points 8 (of 9)

------------------------------------------------------------

That’s it for now. I’ll be totting up the rest of the core artifact close-combat weapons later, though if you want to edit them in for me I’ll be glad. Once I’ve gotten them all up, I’ll start tweaking them to be more in line with the system’s balance. Core Versions of Melee Weapons are done. Next I'll be doing the Martial Arts ones.

[Reynard]

[Post Reserved for Weapons from Non-Official Sources]

[Tael]

Shouldn't Grand Daiklaves be speed 6 under your system?

Also, Short Daiklaves are incredibly overpowered if you buy just one with your system.

[The Rose Dragon]

Also, Short Daiklaves are incredibly overpowered if you buy just one with your system.

You're saying that like they aren't overpowered in the first place. Their only real disadvantage compared to a reaper daiklave is their lack of a hearthstone setting, which these rules don't cover.

[Reynard]

Shouldn't Grand Daiklaves be speed 6 under your system?

Yes, actually. Ah well, I knew it was too good to be true that I'd found a good balance point.


Also, Short Daiklaves are incredibly overpowered if you buy just one with your system.

That's why I built these rules, and you'll note I haven't gotten to Short Daiklaves yet. They're a one-dot artifact with all simply crazy stats.

These rules don't make them overpowered, they already were. These rules are guidelines for fixing everything to an appropriate level.


You're saying that like they aren't overpowered in the first place. Their only real disadvantage compared to a reaper daiklave is their lack of a hearthstone setting, which these rules don't cover.

Hearthstone slots have been a sticking point. They seems to have been added even more drunkenly than the base weapon stats. I have one main idea for dealing with them, and that is:

Weapons start off with Hearthstone slots equal to [dot rating -1] and can sacrifice them for more points. Exactly how many points is the thing I'm having trouble on.

[Tavar]

Hmm. You forgot what making a weapon paired does(paired weapons remove external penalty for dual wielding).

Just so people can see, here's what one short Daiklave is like. Judging by this, it should be a 2 dot artifact for 1, 4 dots for a pair. The lack of a hearthstone setting I guess it equated with being paired.


Short Daiklave; 1 dot artifact. Book version.

Speed: 4 | Damage +4L | Accuracy +4 | Defense +2 | Rate 2 | Str Rating: 3 | Tags: -

2pts Increase Accuracy to 4
2pts Reduce Speed to 4
1pt Increase Damage by 1
2pts Lower Strenght Rating by 2

Points regained
1pt Lower defense by 1.

6 out of 3 pts.

[Reynard]

Hmm. You forgot what making a weapon paired does(paired weapons remove external penalty for dual wielding).

Well, I didn't forget, I just didn't see an elegant way of doing it.

The way the scale works in Exalted is a bit odd, so for example the difference between 1-dot and 2-dot is usually nowhere near as big as 2-dot and 3-dot.

Based on that, I'm think of making Dual Wielding an option that in exchange for increasing the artifact rating of the weapon (but you don't get any extra points), gives you a duplicate of the weapon that can be used without penalty. The one advantage to dual wielding is increased rate, which sucks, so I think this is a fair trade off.

Thoughts?

[DeadManSleeping]

Hmm. You forgot what making a weapon paired does(paired weapons remove external penalty for dual wielding).

Just so people can see, here's what one short Daiklave is like. Judging by this, it should be a 2 dot artifact for 1, 4 dots for a pair. The lack of a hearthstone setting I guess it equated with being paired.

You forgot to reduce the Strength rating. That's two more points right there, making it almost a 3-dotter.

[Reynard]

Actually, Tavar got quite a bit wrong. :smalltongue:

Correct points rating of the Short Daiklave has been added to second post.

I'm doing a binge today, adding the rest of the Core Melee weapons. The Martial Arts weapons will be added later.

[Tael]

Hmm, I don't think dual wielding is worth an extra dot. There are a bunch of 1 dot dual artifacts after all, it only adds rate. I would make paired weapons a 2 pt, or maybe even just 1 pt quality. A lot of the time, it's more of a drawback than it is a benefit, not being able to do anything with your other hand.

[Reynard]

Hmm, I don't think dual wielding is worth an extra dot. There are a bunch of 1 dot dual artifacts after all, it only adds rate. I would make paired weapons a 2 pt, or maybe even just 1 pt quality. A lot of the time, it's more of a drawback than it is a benefit, not being able to do anything with your other hand.

I did say it would also gives you a second copy of the weapon.

[Tavar]

• Short Daiklave.
Speed: 4 | Damage +4L | Accuracy +4 | Defense +1 | Rate 2 | Str Rating: 1 | Tags: -

Points Spent:
1: Damage 4L
2: Min Strength to 1
2: Speed 4
3: Accuracy to +4

Points Regained:
1: Defense to +1

Total points: 5 (of 3)
1+2+2+3-1=7, not 5.

And, while I messed up the statline(forgot to change Strength rating and defense), the only mistake was misinterpreting the point cost for accuracy. You should probably change the lines so it's clear that the cost to make some thing Accuracy 4 are if it's already accuracy 3, instead of the total point cost.

[Weimann]

Question: does the examples aim to show what point values the book versions of the weapons have, or do they try to create new versions balanced on a set amount of points? I'm not quite sure, and it'd help discussion further on.

[Reynard]

Question: does the examples aim to show what point values the book versions of the weapons have, or do they try to create new versions balanced on a set amount of points? I'm not quite sure, and it'd help discussion further on.

It says at the top of the second post that, so far, I'm just listing the stats for the already existing weapons, along with the point value they have under this system.

[Reynard]

Weapons start off with Hearthstone slots equal to [dot rating -1] and can sacrifice them for more points. Exactly how many points is the thing I'm having trouble on.


Based on that, I'm think of making Dual Wielding an option that in exchange for increasing the artifact rating of the weapon (but you don't get any extra points), gives you a duplicate of the weapon that can be used without penalty. The one advantage to dual wielding is increased Rate, which sucks, so I think this is a fair trade off.

Thoughts?

I'd still greatly appreciate any feedback on these ideas.


Also, second post now contains a complete list of the melee-only weapons in core.

[Tavar]

Dual Wielding seems fine. As for the hearthstones...that's a good idea. Not sure how many points. Maybe just 1 point per sacrificed hearthstone?


Just looked over them, and there appear to be some math errors.
Daiklaive: 1+1+1+3=6, not 5.
Reaper Daiklave: 1+1+1+1+2+3=9, not 8
Dire Lance: 1+1+1+1+2+2=8, not 7
Grand Daiklave:1+1+1+2+2+2+3=12, not 11

[Weimann]

It says at the top of the second post that, so far, I'm just listing the stats for the already existing weapons, along with the point value they have under this system.Hm, yes. Seems I'm blind.

As for comments, it's a bit hard without testing them properly. Off the top of my head, I'm wondering if increasing Rate should actually be a 1 point change. It's a strong stat, particularly when it comes to mote attrition. I think it could stand to cost 2 points per Rate.

I like the effort. It's a very hand-on way of balancing. It all depends on weighing the stats correctly, though.

[Reynard]

High Rate is... not that good, unless you have a way around it. Extra-action Charms ignore Rate, and the way the penalties work means that unless you're a Fire Aspect Immaculate, you're unlikely to hit at much more than a 3-attack flurry.

Unless you've got a truly insane accuracy pool. That's most of why TWF is a pretty bad idea in Exalted.

[Tael]

Hmm, looking over everything, I'm not sure the two-handed template should be +0. Probably +1 considering the massive bonuses you can get from it.

[Tavar]

What massive bonuses? True, it doubles damage, but it also makes it a two handed weapon, increases speed(which is bad), and lowers Accuracy, Defense, and Rate.

[Tael]

What massive bonuses? True, it doubles damage, but it also makes it a two handed weapon, increases speed(which is bad), and lowers Accuracy, Defense, and Rate.

If we are talking about making a balanced customizable system, the ability to double an important stat is always massive. Having 1 lower in all other stats doesn't matter that much if you kill anything you touch.

[Reynard]

If we are talking about making a balanced customizable system, the ability to double an important stat is always massive. Having 1 lower in all other stats doesn't matter that much if you kill anything you touch.

Lowering Speed and Accuracy is massive. Damage... not so much. A solid hit from ANY weapon can be game-ending for an Exalt, while damage matters for... breaking objects (And more accuracy helps here as well) and putting a dent into soak Lunars.

Basically, damage isn't as big a deal as you think. It's far from a weapons most important stat.

[The Rose Dragon]

Lowering Speed and Accuracy is massive. Damage... not so much. A solid hit from ANY weapon can be game-ending for an Exalt, while damage matters for... breaking objects (And more accuracy helps here as well) and putting a dent into soak Lunars.

Basically, damage isn't as big a deal as you think. It's far from a weapons most important stat.

It is the one reason grand killsticks are called that, though. And this in a game where carrying a shield can be a lifesaver. After all, many weapons have better speed and better accuracy, such as reaper daiklave.

((Hint: reaper daiklave is often considered the weakest of daiklaves, unless it is jade, in which case it gets a little leeway because it is at Speed 3.))

[SurlySeraph]

Yeah, the reason the Grand weapons are so unpleasant is because getting hit with them can be pretty much certain death, because they do so much damage. Unless you have lots of Soak, in which case they're so unpleasant because of Piercing, Overwhelming, and extra action charms that make Rate meaningless.

I'd consider making 2H and Piercing -3 modifiers, and giving the weapons Rating x4 points capped at 12; I think this might produce results more in line with the book, if that's what you're aiming for.

I definitely like the idea, though, and I think you're definitely on the right track.

[Tavar]

((Hint: reaper daiklave is often considered the weakest of daiklaves, unless it is jade, in which case it gets a little leeway because it is at Speed 3.))

I thought that it was weaker because it's pretty much the same as a Short Daiklave, just more expensive.

[The Rose Dragon]

I thought that it was weaker because it's pretty much the same as a Short Daiklave, just more expensive.

I'm talking about the stats sans cost, not with. Until the 4th dot, the cost is rarely a great limiter for artifacts.

[Tavar]

Well, I wasn't thinking of that, but the attune cost is lower for one.

[Reynard]

Actually, it isn't really an attempt to get close to the book-stats, it's an attempt to give Artifact Weapons some balance in relation to each other.

But I'll admit that getting hit by a Grand Killstick once is more likely to be instantly fatal than getting hit normally, but getting hit normally is still pretty likely to leave you either dead or so messed up that there's very little you can do about the next attack.