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Jamin
2011-03-17, 08:46 PM
I am DMing a game with 3 people I am friends with all of them but one of them is making the game a chore rather than something fun. When I DM I always ban evil characters because A) I don't want to run a evil game B) I place my players in situations where they can be the heroes not villains C) it creates party drama. However this player has made me think about banning neutral or at least make them write a 3 paragraph essay about why your character would want to do these things(save people, stop evil doers ect)
Anyway a list of things he does that annoy me
1) Makes late night stealing trips
This annoys me because
A) it leaves the other players with nothing to do
B) I find it very boring to DM
C) It takes so loooooong
2) Has way to high Diplomacy
This is not something he does but feels like no matter what he asks the NPCs are forced to obey unless I ignore his roll which seems unfair
3)Refuses to do anything for free
4)Attacks NPCs for no reason
5)Belittles other players
6)Steals form other players
7)Asks for more xp for silly things
8)Refuses to allow other players to talk to npcs (sometimes)
9)Makes himself the star even though his character seems to have no interest in the plot or story progression at all

Even though he does all these things I don't want to just kick him out or anything but it has gotten to point where I am not having fun anymore. I want my players to be the heroes not guys who did for the money. Any advice or help would be most welcome.

Elric VIII
2011-03-17, 09:36 PM
I assume that he's a Rogue, from that list of peeves.

If you've already talked to him about the problem (this is always the first way to go), perhaps you can show him exactly what he's doing.

He has a poor Will save, an irate wizard could easily Charm Person, Suggestion, or Dominate him while he's out stealing (AKA alone with no witnesses). It takes a DC 20 Sense motive check to even tell if he's under someone else's mental control, so the party won't be able to just pay to have him fixed. this can be used as a medium to show him how it feels to have no power over your character's decisions.

Another option is Mark of Justince, Belkar-style.

Tavar
2011-03-17, 09:41 PM
Regarding diplomacy; the system in the core books is pretty borked. There's one fix, either in the Gaming section on the left of the screen or in one of the stickied threads in the Homebrew section. The one for Mr. Burlew's gaming articles. That might help that issue.

Number 8 is an issue. If it's in game, the other players and people should treat him like the jerk his character's acting like. If it's OOC, then you should take him aside and explain that he doesn't get to play other peoples' characters.

Jamin
2011-03-17, 10:30 PM
I have tried to tell him that that I don't like what he is doing and have almost killed him and killed him for real(but than we went back in time because I am a softie) But he still does it. He might think I am kidding as I often have hard time making people know when I am being serious.

Toliudar
2011-03-17, 10:35 PM
#3 seems relatively easy to deal with - find a way for there to be a modest financial incentive for whatever you want the group to do, and decrease other treasure accordingly.

#4 can be dealt with IC. Not every attack needs to be found out, but if there's a series of attacks - especially with a signature style - any lawful society is going to start divining or investigating.

#5 is asinine and gets stomped on OOC. This goes double for #6.

A lot of this would seem to be a play for getting a disproportionate share of attention at sessions.

Tavar
2011-03-17, 10:37 PM
Have you talked to the rest of the group? Are they having the same problems you are?

Also, this sounds like an OOC problem. It needs to be handled OOC, not IC. Talk to him, and ask him what's wrong/why he's doing what he's doing.

Velaryon
2011-03-17, 10:57 PM
He sounds like a seriously obnoxious player. How do the other players feel about his antics?

Either way, what you should try is to talk to him outside the game, and explain to him that you have some serious issues with the way he is choosing to play this game, and that yes you are serious. Explain that you want him to have fun, but at the same time he's ruining your fun and (possibly) that of the other players.

If a serious discussion about being a team player doesn't fix things, you may have no choice except to remove him from the game.

NMBLNG
2011-03-17, 11:16 PM
1) Makes late night stealing trips
This annoys me because
A) it leaves the other players with nothing to do
B) I find it very boring to DM
C) It takes so loooooong
2) Has way to high Diplomacy
This is not something he does but feels like no matter what he asks the NPCs are forced to obey unless I ignore his roll which seems unfair
3)Refuses to do anything for free
4)Attacks NPCs for no reason
5)Belittles other players
6)Steals form other players
7)Asks for more xp for silly things
8)Refuses to allow other players to talk to npcs (sometimes)
9)Makes himself the star even though his character seems to have no interest in the plot or story progression at all


#1 can be done at another time. If he reliably survives/escapes these trips, then you can simply say that you'll play out those adventures after the current session.

#2 is probably a matter of a DM's interpretation of a diplomacy check. How to handle diplomacy is a topic worthy of another thread.

#3 is normal rogue behavior. You may want to mention that even if he isn't getting paid for a quest, there may be loot there, or other things on the quest that would help him with other goals. Not a big problem, AFAIK

#4. Throw him in jail or something. Make an NPC that's almost as strong as him, and can make him wonder if he can really win the fight. Nothing overpowered, but something to make it a matter of luck. Or have the NPC escape and carry a grudge, or whatever. Though you may also want to ask why he's attacking before you do this, as he may actually have reasons to attack.

#5. I can understand IC smack talk. If it's OOC, then it's a problem. Another topic worthy of its own thread.

#6 is something I auto-ban, except for very special circumstances. If a player tried that, I would simply say "No, you can't steal from your team mates, because I don't want to run a PvP campaign", or something similar.

#7 either ignore or remind him that you only get exp for productive things, not silly things.

#8 Well if he has a habit of attacking NPCs, maybe some of them don't want to talk to him. Though it may just be an IC thing if he has the party face skills.

#9 You're the DM. It's your job to make players the stars.

TurtleKing
2011-03-17, 11:24 PM
If that is in according with how the character would act/react based on the characters fluff that is one thing. Note: using the alignment as a shield is not acceptable. If the reason for the actions are because of the player gets his fun that way then kick him.

Pentachoron
2011-03-18, 02:06 AM
I don't know why people tread on eggshells with their friends so much. If one of your friends is doing something you don't like you call them on it. One of my friends was exhibiting that behavior in one of the games I was running, I simply told him I was not going to let him play a sociopathic hobo in my game and if he intended on continuing that path he should go find somewhere else to play because it wouldn't be with me.

Turns out we're still friends and he's finally actually roleplaying instead of chaotic stupiding everything.

obliged_salmon
2011-03-18, 07:36 AM
I want my players to be the heroes not guys who did for the money.

I want my co-workers and neighbors to lay piles of gold and delicious foods at my feet, but I'm pretty sure they don't want to do that, so I'm never going to force the issue.

Y'all should talk, as a group, about the kind of game you want to play. You obviously want high fantasy, traditional DnD heroic adventures. This player seems to want to play morally grey, dashing rogue, pirate/swashbuckler game with potential for interparty conflict. Compromise together. Work on a solution. Don't let it fester in game or ain't nobody gonna be happy.

Also, figure out what the other two players want out of the game. They might not like getting stolen from, but perhaps they'd be interested in more intra-party "drama" than you are. More character-directed story.

Also, thieving trips? Resolve it with one roll. Don't make it take forever, that's entirely your prerogative. Ask how he wants to go about thieving. Make him roll one appropriate skill, and let him describe what happens if he succeeds. Inversely, give him a really bad day if he fails his check.

I.E.
DM: That gold medallion you pawned? Turns out it belonged to the mob boss's daughter. Yes, the pawn shop guy works for him, and knows your face. You wake up the next morning with a knife at your throat.

Just some thoughts.

Grogmir
2011-03-18, 08:14 AM
I'm agree with the OP, I wouldn't want to DM or play with a character that did most of those things.

1) A quick simple Stealth or Theivery check - you roll, explain what happened that night.. give a few gold for success start planning who would take office at the players actions. eventually he'll roll low and it come back to haunt him. (and the party)

The big part is though that in the vast majority of times its one roll and move on.

2)They may be forced to LIKE him, but dip cannot force them to do something they don't want to do. Its changes peoples attitudes not their desires or wants. People forget that and think Dip is a mind effecting ability.

3)Either just give in, and adjust treasure elsewhere, or start leaving him as the party will do something for free. He'll soon want to get involved.

4) A big big no no, if its not what his character would do. Ask him straight up 'why are you doing this?' It will allow you to work out his motives, which to me just seem to be 'lets break the plot'

Furthermore any unjustified attack will more the player to Evil (turning them into a NPC in my games)

5) In game? Not fun but allowable. Encourage the other players to give as good as they get - there's more of them. OOC put a stop to it straight away.

6) Thats a tough one, for the other players, as they KNOW he's taken it - but then don't.

I suggest playing it out everytime... make him make enough rolls and they'll find out eventually. Remind the other players then if they kick the 'PC' out thats there decision too.

7) Just say no.

8)How does he achieve this? This is an OOC and IC problem. Its strikes to the heart of his selfishness.

I would have a important NPC just talk over him, shout him down, tell him to be quiet as 'I want to speak to 'other PC' - someone with some manners'

9)Again - I would be interested in how. As a DM you do have to make sure everyone gets a little time. Its hard with players like this - very hard - but make it obvious its someone elses 'time' and see what he does. If he still doesn't shut up. Plain OOC say it.

- - -

Good luck - I would hate to DM someone like that - we're all friends at my table and very quickly sit back if its someone else's show.

valadil
2011-03-18, 09:25 AM
I want my co-workers and neighbors to lay piles of gold and delicious foods at my feet, but I'm pretty sure they don't want to do that, so I'm never going to force the issue.


Not quite the same thing though. The GM is offering to run a game. He wants to run something specific and has told the players what that is. It's up to the players to come up with heroic characters that fit the game, or to not play at all. Deciding to play a scoundrel anyway and hope the GM doesn't notice is just rude.

Jay R
2011-03-18, 09:53 AM
I have tried to tell him that that I don't like what he is doing and have almost killed him and killed him for real(but than we went back in time because I am a softie) But he still does it. He might think I am kidding as I often have hard time making people know when I am being serious.

You are kidding; you are not being serious.

If youwere serious, you would have done it, and not gone back in time to undo it. You have shown him that you will not kill the character or do anything else to stop him. So he has no motivation to change.

Sure, talk to him. Talk to the other players. But only two people can actually make a change -- either you or him. And he won't, ever, because he doesn't want to.

The inescapable conclusion is that you must change it, or it won't change.

Pentachoron
2011-03-18, 10:04 AM
Not quite the same thing though. The GM is offering to run a game. He wants to run something specific and has told the players what that is. It's up to the players to come up with heroic characters that fit the game, or to not play at all. Deciding to play a scoundrel anyway and hope the GM doesn't notice is just rude.

He never said that he conveyed his desire regarding what he wants to see in the campaign to players at all. It's hardly something you can just know without being told, either.

obliged_salmon
2011-03-18, 10:40 AM
Not quite the same thing though. The GM is offering to run a game. He wants to run something specific and has told the players what that is. It's up to the players to come up with heroic characters that fit the game, or to not play at all. Deciding to play a scoundrel anyway and hope the GM doesn't notice is just rude.

True, it's not a perfect metaphor. However, I strongly believe that everyone will be a lot happier if the GM says "Hey, let's achieve a compromise concerning what kind of game we're all interested in playing," than if he says, "Hey, let's play the kind of game I want to play, and if you don't like it, take a hike."

Fun for all, not fun for one, in other words.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-18, 03:18 PM
He sounds like a seriously obnoxious player.

This. Chat about it, and point out the troubles.

If not, feel free to kill him. Blatant crime sprees lead to problems. Diplomancy aside, people want to not be stolen from. Eventually, someone will track him down and attack when he is weakest. Probably when sleeping.

The_Jackal
2011-03-18, 03:44 PM
He sounds like a douche. Kick him from the game. When he asks why, let the other players explain why.

dps
2011-03-18, 04:39 PM
I am DMing a game with 3 people I am friends with all of them but one of them is making the game a chore rather than something fun. When I DM I always ban evil characters because A) I don't want to run a evil game B) I place my players in situations where they can be the heroes not villains C) it creates party drama. However this player has made me think about banning neutral or at least make them write a 3 paragraph essay about why your character would want to do these things(save people, stop evil doers ect)

A is perfectly understandable, but I have some problem with B--it sounds like you might be trying to railroad your players too much. Now, I'm not sure about that--I obviously don't have enough info--but that's the impression I got. Whether or not C is a problem probably depends on exactly what kind of drama it creates. Generally, it does create the wrong kind of drama, though.



Anyway a list of things he does that annoy me
1) Makes late night stealing trips
This annoys me because
A) it leaves the other players with nothing to do
B) I find it very boring to DM
C) It takes so loooooong

I don't see that any of these are directly related to his alignment--rather, the problem is that he is violating the old rule "don't split the party". You could have the same problem with a Paladin who was a member of an order whose code and rules demanded that if he was in a town, he had to patrol the streest at night to guard the locals from criminals. OK, less likely, but still, I don't see this as about alignment. I think I'd recommend just being stern about it and telling him, "No, I'm not DMing individual side-quests for you or anyother party member. It's not fair to the other players to take up that much time for you to play by yourself". That doesn't mean that you have to railroad the players on the main quest, because the group as a whole can still go on side quests or otherwise go off the rails.



2) Has way to high Diplomacy
This is not something he does but feels like no matter what he asks the NPCs are forced to obey unless I ignore his roll which seems unfair

Again, I don't see how this would be different if he was lawful instead of neutral. You can fiddle with the DRMs for his diplomacy rolls, or use a different diplomacy/influence system, or simply, in many cases, tell him, "No, what you want the NPC to do is so clearly against the NPC's interests that your attempt fails automatically--you don't get a roll on this". A bonus here is that such a spectacular failure is likely to have offended the NPC to the point that you can use it as a malus to future attempts to influence the same NPC (and possibly his associates) when more reasonable demands/requests are made.



3)Refuses to do anything for free

Hmm. I'm not sure that this is directly an alignment problem, either--I can imagine a very lawful character who follows a code that says that any labor must be compensated--in fact, IRL I consider myself pretty lawful, but I'm not much into volunteering. Of course, in roll-playing terms, generally loot and/or XPs from adventuring are generally looked at more-or-less as payment for going on quests, so I'm not sure exactly what constitutes doing something for free within the game.



4)Attacks NPCs for no reason

Too common among players of all alignments. The best thing here is to put some in-game consequences in place--such as attracting the attention of the authorities in your setting (who should be powerful enough to apprehend him/defeat him in combat if needed--if the local authorities aren't powerful enough, let them appeal for help to higher or neighboring authorities).



5)Belittles other players

In character, or out of character? (Either way, I still don't see what it has to do with alignment.) If in-character, let the other players roll-play their response--it's not your problem, it's theirs. If out-of-character, get with the other players, and confront him about it as a group--it's not a DM problem, it's a group problem. It may be that the other players don't care or mind, in which case, if they're willing to ignore it, so should you.



6)Steals form other players

I really hope that this is in-character, not out-of-character! :smallbiggrin: Simple enough, let him get caught, and then let the other players come up with an in-character response, and then make him live with the consequences.



7)Asks for more xp for silly things

Once again, this has nothing to do with alignment, but there is a very simple solution--as the old anti-drug abuse commercials taught, just say "No".



8)Refuses to allow other players to talk to npcs (sometimes)

Again, don't see the alignment angle here, but how does he not allow the other players to talk to NPCs in the first place? If he just tells them not to, and they go along with it, that's their fault. Let them deal with it in-character. (If he's using his high diplomacy to boss the other PCs around, simply don't let him use it on PCs, which is the way it should be anyway.)



9)Makes himself the star even though his character seems to have no interest in the plot or story progression at all

That's an ego problem, not an alignment problem. How do the other players feel about this?



Even though he does all these things I don't want to just kick him out or anything but it has gotten to point where I am not having fun anymore.

Are your other players having fun? I agree that you should be having fun too, but if his actions aren't keeping the other players from having fun, maybe you just need to loosen up.



I want my players to be the heroes not guys who did for the money. Any advice or help would be most welcome.

I don't see why someone who does something for the money can't still be a hero. IRL, firefighters are heroes IMO, but I don't ask them to do without pay. At any rate, I think that the motivations of your player's characters are up to your players, not you. I do think that, yes, you do have the right (and quite possibly, depending on the setting, the responsibility) to insist that your players are working on the side of good (I probably wasn't clear about it earlier, but I do think that it's best to keep evil-aligned characters out of a group unless you want to specifically run an evil-themed campaign), but I don't see a reason to exclude neutral-aligned characters who are willing to work on the good side, for whatever motivation, including pay. And anyway, for the most part, while it does appear that his actions and behavior are harming the game, I just don't see that most of them have anything to do with his alignment--it seems like they have more to do with his RL personality.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-03-18, 04:43 PM
Yeah, first suggestion is to use the diplomacy rules posted in the homebrew section mentioned earlier. They are definitely a good fix.

Also talk to him. I have the same issue. Like you, I don't want to tread too hard, but sometimes players can be more frustrating than you would want.

What sorts of skills does he have? If he isn't too good at identifying things, perhaps he steals something cursed for non-lawful? Make his stealing risky and he won't do it.

Also talk to him. I feel like that's basically the only thing you can do.

Kiero
2011-03-18, 05:13 PM
This player sounds like a spotlight-hogging tool.

I don't know how your players even put up with being at the same table as him.

Pisha
2011-03-18, 07:08 PM
1) Makes late night stealing trips Ha ha, that's me. I love little side scenes, especially when I get to indulge my rogue's sneaky side, but the thing I had to learn is - not during the game! Let him know if he wants to go off on his own and thieve, he needs to find a time to get with you outside of games for it. He could arrive early or stay late. He could send you an email about it. He could ask to meet up with you during the week - he buys you a beer, you run him a scene. He'll still get his one-on-one scene, the other players don't have to sit around and be bored, and you'll probably have more fun with it if you're not trying to rush through it to get back to the rest of the game.


2) Has way too high Diplomacy Diplomacy rolls are always a grey area. First of all, common sense has to play a part. You can roll a nat-20 Diplomacy check with a +50 modifier, but if you just stabbed a man's daughter in front of him, he is not your friend. Second, while the stats are there for a reason, circumstances - and roleplay - should affect the role. If he can legitimately RP a diplomatic encounter, give him a bonus on the role. If he's rude or condescending to the NPC's, though, he should get negatives - big ones. Third, as has been pointed out, Diplomacy affects attitude - it's not mind control. That guard in front of the palace might think you're the cat's pajama's, but he's still not gonna let you in without the proper papers. He's got a job to do. (However, to modify this... someone who puts a lot of points into Dip took them away from something else. It isn't fair to completely nerf the skill; Diplomacy exists to give characters the option of talking their way out of trouble. But don't ever feel like it's forcing your hand, either. While Diplomacy should work most of the time, it is 100% legitimate for some NPC's to have reasons not to do what the PC wants, even if they like him.)

3)Refuses to do anything for free So pay him. Or have one of the other players pay him. Or talk up the treasure most likely waiting at the end of the dungeon. Or, y'know... let his character stay home alone while everyone else goes out and has adventures. That's not a great option, but it is an option - and if the rest of the party wants to do something and he absolutely stonewalls ic-ly, oh well. Guess he's going to be bored.

4)Attacks NPCs for no reason I usually hate, hate, hate the idea of GM's telling players "your character wouldn't do that," but you know what? It is ok to ask him to justify his character's actions. If he can't come up with a reasonable explanation, then tell him no. Honestly, in real life nobody just randomly attacks people for no reason. People who do are usually psychopaths, and what happens to them is, they either get killed or they get locked away forever. Let him know that if he acts like this, he is GOING to lose his character one way or another.

5)Belittles other players In or out of character? If it's IC, let the other characters deal with it. If OOC, tell him politely but firmly that if he continues, you're going to have to ask him to leave the game.

6)Steals form other players Er... if this is IC, see above. If it's OOC... good lord, what's going on over there? Make him give it back!

7)Asks for more xp for silly things ...Tell him no?

8)Refuses to allow other players to talk to npcs (sometimes) Ok, in all my years of gaming, if I wanted to talk to an NPC, and the GM wanted me to talk to the NPC, I have never once had another player prevent this. This is up to your other players to start asserting themselves with this guy.

9)Makes himself the star even though his character seems to have no interest in the plot or story progression at all ...Good luck with that? He can think he's the star all he wants, but if he's not contributing, the rest of the world isn't going to play along.

Jay R
2011-03-19, 10:33 AM
3)Refuses to do anything for free

This is the real problem -- and the solution.

He will not change for free. Until doing it has a cost he's not willing to pay, he's going to do it. So have a victim send an assassin after him, or a squad of guards, or have his next would-be victim be deaf. (Diplomacy doesn't work unless he is heard.)

But the change will come from you, not from him.