Masterwork Weapons instead of Expertise

[DeltaEmil]

There is talk about how the Expertise Feats that grant a +1 bonus at the heroic tier and which increase by 1 point for every new tier are a way to fix the expected combat math, and that it becomes a necessity once you get at the paragon tier.

When 4th edition was introduced, the armor system was overhauled from 3rd edition in the way that the different masterwork bonus were incorporated into the specific armor types depending on the level when the armor was to be granted, which is a also a math-fix, but it was there from the beginning.

I wonder if one couldn't simply incorporate a "masterwork" quality towards higher-tier weapons (and perhaps implements), just as it's done to armor, with a chart that says that if you have so-and-so-much enhancement bonus to your weapon, you get that much to-hit-bonus total (and to-damage-total too).

Then again, the Expertise feats introduced in Heroes of the Fallen Lands do have other effects than simply giving a bonus to-hit.

Has anybody else thought about such a system?

[Gralamin]

There is talk about how the Expertise Feats that grant a +1 bonus at the heroic tier and which increase by 1 point for every new tier are a way to fix the expected combat math, and that it becomes a necessity once you get at the paragon tier.

When 4th edition was introduced, the armor system was overhauled from 3rd edition in the way that the different masterwork bonus were incorporated into the specific armor types depending on the level when the armor was to be granted, which is a also a math-fix, but it was there from the beginning.

I wonder if one couldn't simply incorporate a "masterwork" quality towards higher-tier weapons (and perhaps implements), just as it's done to armor, with a chart that says that if you have so-and-so-much enhancement bonus to your weapon, you get that much to-hit-bonus total (and to-damage-total too).

Then again, the Expertise feats introduced in Heroes of the Fallen Lands do have other effects than simply giving a bonus to-hit.

Has anybody else thought about such a system?

Yes, it was one of my first reactions. I think it's a fair choice.

[NMBLNG]

I think in addition it would be nice to add in effects from various materials such as mithril, adamantine, cold iron, etc, instead of having them as enchantments.

I've been meaning to think of a way to do this in a nice and simple format.

[KingFlameHawk]

Yes and No. There is a system to incorporate "masterwork" quality to weapons, it is called the inherent bonus system but it is for removing magic items from the game not the feat. This system gives characters enhancement bonuses to attack rolls, damage rolls and defenses that increase as you level and allows non magical masterwork armor to be purchased. It can be found in the Dungeon Master's Guide page 138.

[Excession]

I reckon using masterwork bonuses rather than expertise feats is a good idea, especially when combined with using inherent bonuses to replace magic weapons. I'd try and throw in a lot of flavour with these upgrades, like having your grandfather's sword reforged with star metal in a far away city, or striking down the BBEG with the axe claimed from his most powerful lieutenant. With only a single upgrade per tier it needs to, and can be, memorable.

[Sine]

There is talk about how the Expertise Feats that grant a +1 bonus at the heroic tier and which increase by 1 point for every new tier are a way to fix the expected combat math, and that it becomes a necessity once you get at the paragon tier.

When 4th edition was introduced, the armor system was overhauled from 3rd edition in the way that the different masterwork bonus were incorporated into the specific armor types depending on the level when the armor was to be granted, which is a also a math-fix, but it was there from the beginning.

I wonder if one couldn't simply incorporate a "masterwork" quality towards higher-tier weapons (and perhaps implements), just as it's done to armor, with a chart that says that if you have so-and-so-much enhancement bonus to your weapon, you get that much to-hit-bonus total (and to-damage-total too).

Then again, the Expertise feats introduced in Heroes of the Fallen Lands do have other effects than simply giving a bonus to-hit.

Has anybody else thought about such a system?
Personally, I give the 'math fix' bonuses directly to the PCs, but masterwork weapons and implements will work just fine.

[Nu]

Personally, I give the 'math fix' bonuses directly to the PCs, but masterwork weapons and implements will work just fine.

There are already 'superior implements' that are basically similar to 'masterwork implements,' though.

[Leolo]

I usually don't like claims like "the expertise feats are a math fix".

Because they are based on an incomplete calculation, that is ignoring other ways to increase the chance to hit.

And i wouldn't gave them for free.

[Sine]

There are already 'superior implements' that are basically similar to 'masterwork implements,' though.
*shrug* Like I said, I prefer to simply give the PCs those bonuses.

But I don't think masterwork implements will cause anyone to spiral into a crisis of confusion, if that's what DeltaEmil wants. If it makes you feel better, suggest a better name for them.

[Kylarra]

I usually don't like claims like "the expertise feats are a math fix".

Because they are based on an incomplete calculation, that is ignoring other ways to increase the chance to hit.

And i wouldn't gave them for free.At paragon/epic, the expertise feats are the best in terms of cost:value in garnering those extra +to hit.