Can a Spell Caster do ANYTHING against a Colossus?

[Sims]

For those of you who do not know, a Colossus is a Construct that generates a 100ft AntiMagic Field. Even at Epic Levels, if a Wizard can't cast spells, hes screwed.

Are there any feats that let you cast spells in AntiMagic Fields?

[Jarian]

Cheater of Mystra if you're a Cleric.

Invoke Magic lets you cast up to 7th level spells for a 9th level slot.

Tinfoil hat trick.

I assume this is 3.5 D&D?

[Privateer]

Shrink Item lots of giant lead cannonballs. Fly above 100ft. Drop shrunk lead cannonballs onto the Colossus. As they enter the anti-magic field (or use command word before they enter, if you want to play it safe), the cannonballs increase to their regular size and mass, increasing their weight by a factor of 4000. Continue doing this until the colossus is crushed.

:smallcool:

[Essence_of_War]

Their hit points are pathetic relative to their CR since they are constructs.

The usual strategy would be metamagic'd orb spells. Since they are instantaneous conjuration spells, they are not affected by SR or by AMF as long as they originate outside the AMF. Although I'm still unclear as to what a mundane force effect, as produced by an orb of force, might be :smallbiggrin:

A few well placed ones should reduce it to rubble quite handily.

[Bobikus]

Planar Bindings. Called creatures can fight in an AMF just fine.

[Toofey]

Could not one simply fly over them and drop very heavy things on them?

Or lure them into a box valley, then use a few rock to muds at the edges of the anti-magic field to collapse the valley on them?

Or... well, I'm sure you'll think of something.

[Toofey]

Shrink Item lots of giant lead cannonballs. Fly above 100ft. Drop shrunk lead cannonballs onto the Colossus. As they enter the anti-magic field (or use command word before they enter, if you want to play it safe), the cannonballs increase to their regular size and mass, increasing their weight by a factor of 4000. Continue doing this until the colossus is crushed.

:smallcool:

I like this fellow!

[Goonthegoof]

Keep in mind you need a CL of at least 32 to orb from outside the AMF's range.
But I really like the shrink item idea, use its strengths against it would be fun.

[Tael]

Keep in mind you need a CL of at least 32 to orb from outside the AMF's range.
But I really like the shrink item idea, use its strengths against it would be fun.

Or you could just enlarge it. I mean, if you're already meta-magicing orb spells, chances are you can slap enlarge on it pretty easily.

[The_Weirdo]

This one depends on where you are, but if you're near a real high cliff that has thin enough borders, conjure up any bridge (be it a force one or a stone/rock one or whatever) that the colossus could also step on. Go to the other side, by running, Dimensional Door or Teleport. Watch the biggest pratfall in the history of mankind as the colossus sees the bridge, advances to get you, and either steps on nothing when he reaches the bridge or falls through the avalanche he'll create when he steps on the thin parts.

[faceroll]

Their hit points are pathetic relative to their CR since they are constructs.

The usual strategy would be metamagic'd orb spells. Since they are instantaneous conjuration spells, they are not affected by SR or by AMF as long as they originate outside the AMF. Although I'm still unclear as to what a mundane force effect, as produced by an orb of force, might be :smallbiggrin:

A few well placed ones should reduce it to rubble quite handily.

Not only are they in an AMF, they are also magic immune.

[Reynard]

Not only are they in an AMF, they are also magic immune.

Doesn't magic immunity only actually protect against things that allow Spell Resistance to enter the equation?

[tyckspoon]

Doesn't magic immunity only actually protect against things that allow Spell Resistance to enter the equation?

Strictly speaking, no- that's Spell Immunity, which is the special quality standard Golems and certain other monsters have. The Colossus sports Magic Immunity, which just flat out says 'immune to all magical and supernatural effects,' and was not mentioned in the 3.5 update booklet. So, by strict RAW, the Colossus just can't be touched directly by magic at all. RAI, it probably should have been changed to Spell Immunity instead..otherwise, I'm not really sure how you're meant to fight these things, especially at their written CRs- a normal AMF is not a particular problem for a caster. A 100-ft radius one that does not hamper the creature using it at all is.

[faceroll]

Strictly speaking, no- that's Spell Immunity, which is the special quality standard Golems and certain other monsters have. The Colossus sports Magic Immunity, which just flat out says 'immune to all magical and supernatural effects,' and was not mentioned in the 3.5 update booklet. So, by strict RAW, the Colossus just can't be touched directly by magic at all. RAI, it probably should have been changed to Spell Immunity instead..otherwise, I'm not really sure how you're meant to fight these things, especially at their written CRs- a normal AMF is not a particular problem for a caster. A 100-ft radius one that does not hamper the creature using it at all is.

I'm not so sure changing Magic Immunity to Magic Immunity is RAW, seeing how it's really only on Epic monsters. Should Epic monsters be that much easier to slay?

[tyckspoon]

I'm not so sure changing Magic Immunity to Magic Immunity is RAW, seeing how it's really only on Epic monsters. Should Epic monsters be that much easier to slay?

It's not so much 'hard to slay' as that the only practical way I can see to try to fight it is kiting it with ranged attacks.. and then you run into the problem that the AMF emanation means there is no way for your weapons to be Epic, so you can't beat the DR, and archery tends to work off ping-damage on lots of attacks, which makes DR much more effective against it. Giving it Spell Immunity as per the normal golems just means you have some other means of taking a shot at it that doesn't require either a very particular sort of build or having an army of siege engines.

[Runestar]

Giant uranium beachballs it is then. :smalltongue:

[FelixG]

It's not so much 'hard to slay' as that the only practical way I can see to try to fight it is kiting it with ranged attacks.. and then you run into the problem that the AMF emanation means there is no way for your weapons to be Epic, so you can't beat the DR, and archery tends to work off ping-damage on lots of attacks, which makes DR much more effective against it. Giving it Spell Immunity as per the normal golems just means you have some other means of taking a shot at it that doesn't require either a very particular sort of build or having an army of siege engines.

Or just playing smart? :smallconfused:

There are two examples above (pit fall and cannonballs) that could work wonders on it, using its own strengths and weight against it.

[Curmudgeon]

Shrink Item lots of giant lead cannonballs. Fly above 100ft. Drop shrunk lead cannonballs onto the Colossus. As they enter the anti-magic field (or use command word before they enter, if you want to play it safe), the cannonballs increase to their regular size and mass, increasing their weight by a factor of 4000.
This might do something, but it's going to be mostly wasted effort. The problem is that, while the damage may be spectacular, the attack is exceedingly difficult. This is going to fall under barrage attacks using the rules in Heroes of Battle. The weight has to be low enough pre-expansion to allow the spellcaster to aim (using improvised weapon rules) at a designated square, then the Colossus (with a minimum Reflex save modifier of +18) can avoid the attack with a DC 15 Reflex save. It might take 50 shots to get one hit.

No, the spellcaster's best bet is to hit the Colossus with Orb of Acid (or similar), as Essence_of_War mentioned. The product of instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spells is always nonmagical, so that's going to affect the target. Pumping up CL past 30 will get in the range, as will Enlarge Spell. Use other metamagic like Maximize Spell to make sure plenty of damage gets past the DR.

That's the easy part. The main difficulty is that the spellcaster has to succeed on a bunch of saves within 300' to be able to cast, and that will take careful preparation.

[Privateer]

This might do something, but it's going to be mostly wasted effort. The problem is that, while the damage may be spectacular, the attack is exceedingly difficult. This is going to fall under barrage attacks using the rules in Heroes of Battle. The weight has to be low enough pre-expansion to allow the spellcaster to aim (using improvised weapon rules) at a designated square, then the Colossus (with a minimum Reflex save modifier of +18) can avoid the attack with a DC 15 Reflex save. It might take 50 shots to get one hit.

No, the spellcaster's best bet is to hit the Colossus with Orb of Acid (or similar), as Essence_of_War mentioned. The product of instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spells is always nonmagical, so that's going to affect the target. Pumping up CL past 30 will get in the range, as will Enlarge Spell. Use other metamagic like Maximize Spell to make sure plenty of damage gets past the DR.

That's the easy part. The main difficulty is that the spellcaster has to succeed on a bunch of saves within 300' to be able to cast, and that will take careful preparation.

Well, I'm glad you're not a DM in my game.

Yes, if you're going on nerf it, apply RAW from a non-core book where it makes no sense, this is not going to work. But it should and in core it does.

The ball weighs 1lb when shrunk and the wizard is trying to throw it from a height of 100ft at a 30 by 30ft target. Ruling that this is a 1 in 50 chance makes no sense. Neither does it make sense that a creature with a diameter of 30feet, who cannot run and can move as fast as a human jogs would have +18 reflex saves.

In my game this would be a ranged touch attack with a pretty decent penalty, but still quite doable to eventually hit the thing in five to ten rounds.

[Akal Saris]

Perhaps the spellcaster could use his vast wealth obtained by dint of being a spellcaster to higher some big sweaty guys to kill the colossus?

Alternatively, calling creatures through Planar Binding/Ally should be fine, since only summoned creatures are stopped. Or build some constructs. Or raise the dead.

[Doc Roc]

Hum, this one is pretty interesting. The key thing is that it doesn't have much HP at all, really. How does your GM handle Initiate of the Seven Veil + AMF?

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, if you're going on nerf it, apply RAW from a non-core book where it makes no sense, this is not going to work. But it should and in core it does.
"In core" there's no Colossus at all; that's from Epic Level Handbook, pages 170-174. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with this line of argument, but Heroes of Battle does establish what's required to hit with such an attack, just as Complete Warrior establishes what the damage would be (Table 4-7 on page 159). These rules provide specific in-game tools to handle such oddball attacks, which the core books alone cannot do.

The ball weighs 1lb when shrunk and the wizard is trying to throw it from a height of 100ft at a 30 by 30ft target. Ruling that this is a 1 in 50 chance makes no sense.
I'm not "ruling" the attack chance; that's just a guestimate assuming the combination of weak BAB, use of True Strike and other spells, and the fact that all Colossi will save except on a natural 1. Worst case would be 1 in 400 if the spellcaster can only hit the square on a rolled 20. In D&D very few attacks hit automatically, including trying to strike the broad side of a barn, or even a specific piece of ground. That's the basic nature of the system.

Neither does it make sense that a creature with a diameter of 30feet, who cannot run and can move as fast as a human jogs would have +18 reflex saves. Reflex saves have no connection to speed. More HD make you better at saving throws; that's an intrinsic part of the game system.

[VirOath]

Strictly speaking, no- that's Spell Immunity, which is the special quality standard Golems and certain other monsters have. The Colossus sports Magic Immunity, which just flat out says 'immune to all magical and supernatural effects,' and was not mentioned in the 3.5 update booklet. So, by strict RAW, the Colossus just can't be touched directly by magic at all. RAI, it probably should have been changed to Spell Immunity instead..otherwise, I'm not really sure how you're meant to fight these things, especially at their written CRs- a normal AMF is not a particular problem for a caster. A 100-ft radius one that does not hamper the creature using it at all is.

Actually, Word For Word, 3.5 Golems have Magic Immunity. All 3.0 Golems also have Magic Immunity.

3.5 States that all spells that have SR Yes fail against creatures with Magic Immunity.

3.0 States that the creature is to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows.

The ELH is 3.0 content, so by the required conversion abilities with the same name are changed as such, so all MM2 Golems and ELH Golems would use 3.5 Magic Immunity, as well as being converted from the Silver/+1/+2/Adamantite/+3/+4/+5... scale for bypassing DR to the category style of 3.5 (Magic/Epic/Exact Metal, and so on)

Getting around the AMF is another issue for spells, but Magic Immunity is what Golems have, and it's not grandfathered in from 3.0, it's converted to 3.5.

And I had to check the books on this one.

[Doc Roc]

Oh, if it gets auto-verted, then this is completely trivial.

[VirOath]

It is, but it sucks when a DM just decides to flat out use 3.0 content from the MM2 against a 3.5 party without conversions or an understanding of the difference.

[Doc Roc]

It is, but it sucks when a DM just decides to flat out use 3.0 content from the MM2 against a 3.5 party without conversions or an understanding of the difference.

Still not terribly difficult. Let me do some math.
Move speed of 50, and the dreaded "Can't Run."
Very impressive jump, so a strict Drop Down Hole approach is probably going to be worthless here.
Really quite good BAB, so we can't just planar bind some poor buggers to deal with it and be perfectly safe.

It's interesting, but I think this is probably doable.

[Kumori]

No, the spellcaster's best bet is to hit the Colossus with Orb of Acid (or similar), as Essence_of_War mentioned. The product of instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spells is always nonmagical, so that's going to affect the target. Pumping up CL past 30 will get in the range, as will Enlarge Spell. Use other metamagic like Maximize Spell to make sure plenty of damage gets past the DR.

You seem to be implying that damage reduction would apply against the orb of acid here. Is that because the AMF makes it a mundane attack, or would you always put it against DR?

[VirOath]

Still not terribly difficult. Let me do some math.

Hehehe, was speaking as to a matter of personal experience, not this situation. A DM I play with loves the MM2, and plays things from it straight up as written, at CR against 3.5 parties. Several occasions I've just had to sit on the side lines and do nothing, because the methods I had for getting around certain blocks or weaknesses wouldn't work because of the 3.0 wording.

[Doc Roc]

Hehehe, was speaking as to a matter of personal experience, not this situation. A DM I play with loves the MM2, and plays things from it straight up as written, at CR against 3.5 parties. Several occasions I've just had to sit on the side lines and do nothing, because the methods I had for getting around certain blocks or weaknesses wouldn't work because of the 3.0 wording.

Mostly, it's just a matter of time, which is a bit more difficult that one would hope actually. If you get a speed of 60, you can kite the poor things indefinitely, you then just need a way to get some damage through.

I tend to mount fiendish wing grafts on all my casters, so speed of 60 is base for me. So we've got about 4800 rounds to deal 600 damage, harder than it sounds without access to any mechanism of magic. Assuming hits on only 20, we'll hit about 500 times, if we don't do anything to get more attacks. It's just a question of what can we hit him with that will get through DR?

As a wizard, quite possibly not much. Interestingly though, the poor bugger has balance untrained and a dex penalty. Chances are it'll fail ANY balance check, which should be all you'd need as a 'zard.

[Privateer]

All I'm saying is that it will be laughable when you tell your player that his high-level character apparently fails time and time again to toss a small metal ball at what is without exaggeration the broad side of a barn-sized target just a hundred feet below. And when you describe the nimble, cheeta-like evasion reflexes of the creature that is supposed to be a stereotypical limbering giant, well... If the players weren't looking at you funny before, they will be now. Depends on the players, of course.

Look, rules are absurd and inconsistent in this scenario. For example, if thrown by hand, a 1/2lb ball is a falling weight and 2000lb of it will do 10d6 damage. But if fired from a sling, this becomes a Colossal-sized bullet and only does 3d6 damage while traveling at higher speed. Oh, and: once you fire it from a sling, it becomes an attack roll to which the Colossus will apply his natural armor and probably will not even be impacted. So, adding more energy to your projectile makes it less lethal? Physics disagrees.

Basically, my point is that rule-lawyering and finding alternative interpretations is perfectly fine, but when you destroy the suspension of disbelief by forcing something to happen that clearly should not happen, merely because it's written in some book, well, let's just say you're not making the session any more fun.

And why it clearly should not happen? Because even I could probably hit that shot if the colossus was still, and a creature the size of a three-storey house should not be able to jump out of the way from a rock thrown at it 19 times out of 20.

[Sacrieur]

Mage's Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) can remove it, though it may be difficult.

Certain spells do work in AMF, such as Prismatic Wall or Force Wall. Additionally, there's nothing stopping you from simply casting Meteor Swarm (range of 400 ft. + 40 / CL) or many other Evocation spells. AMF is explicit about allowing normal missiles to enter the field. As far as I'm concerned, meteors ARE normal missiles (you just can't summon them within range of the field, and pick a target 100 ft. behind the Colossus).

One could argue that they're propelled by magic. But that really just means you have to fly above the Colossus and drop them on it.

[faceroll]

Note the DC 60 fortitude save vs. stench on the flesh golem. Going to want to avoid that.


All I'm saying is that it will be laughable when you tell your player that his high-level character apparently fails time and time again to toss a small metal ball at what is without exaggeration the broad side of a barn-sized target just a hundred feet below. And when you describe the nimble, cheeta-like evasion reflexes of the creature that is supposed to be a stereotypical limbering giant, well... If the players weren't looking at you funny before, they will be now. Depends on the players, of course.

Look, rules are absurd and inconsistent in this scenario. For example, if thrown by hand, a 1/2lb ball is a falling weight and 2000lb of it will do 10d6 damage. But if fired from a sling, this becomes a Colossal-sized bullet and only does 3d6 damage while traveling at higher speed. Oh, and: once you fire it from a sling, it becomes an attack roll to which the Colossus will apply his natural armor and probably will not even be impacted. So, adding more energy to your projectile makes it less lethal? Physics disagrees.

Basically, my point is that rule-lawyering and finding alternative interpretations is perfectly fine, but when you destroy the suspension of disbelief by forcing something to happen that clearly should not happen, merely because it's written in some book, well, let's just say you're not making the session any more fun.

And why it clearly should not happen? Because even I could probably hit that shot if the colossus was still, and a creature the size of a three-storey house should not be able to jump out of the way from a rock thrown at it 19 times out of 20.

The DC 15 reflex save rule is actually a really good one. The idea that all you have to do is fly around and drop heavy things on monsters makes the game extremely silly and ridiculous.


Actually, Word For Word, 3.5 Golems have Magic Immunity. All 3.0 Golems also have Magic Immunity.

3.5 States that all spells that have SR Yes fail against creatures with Magic Immunity.

3.0 States that the creature is to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows.

The ELH is 3.0 content, so by the required conversion abilities with the same name are changed as such, so all MM2 Golems and ELH Golems would use 3.5 Magic Immunity, as well as being converted from the Silver/+1/+2/Adamantite/+3/+4/+5... scale for bypassing DR to the category style of 3.5 (Magic/Epic/Exact Metal, and so on)

Getting around the AMF is another issue for spells, but Magic Immunity is what Golems have, and it's not grandfathered in from 3.0, it's converted to 3.5.

And I had to check the books on this one.

This is a case of specific vs. general.
From the general golem heading in the SRD:
"Immunity to Magic (Ex)

Golems have immunity to most magical and supernatural effects, except when otherwise noted. "

From an iron golem:
"Immunity to Magic (Ex)

An iron golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical attack that deals electricity damage slows an iron golem (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

A magical attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, an iron golem hit by a fireball gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. An iron golem gets no saving throw against fire effects.

An iron golem is affected normally by rust attacks, such as that of a rust monster or a rusting grasp spell. "

From a clay golem:
"A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A move earth spell drives the golem back 120 feet and deals 3d12 points of damage to it.

A disintegrate spell slows the golem (as the slow spell) for 1d6 rounds and deals 1d12 points of damage.

An earthquake spell cast directly at a clay golem stops it from moving on its next turn and deals 5d10 points of damage. The golem gets no saving throw against any of these effects.

Any magical attack against a clay golem that deals acid damage heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a clay golem hit by the breath weapon of a black dragon heals 7 points of damage if the attack would have dealt 22 points of damage. A clay golem golem gets no saving throw against magical attacks that deal acid damage.
Haste (Su)

After it has engaged in at least 1 round of combat, a clay golem can haste itself once per day as a free action. The effect lasts 3 rounds and is otherwise the same as the spell. "

From the colossus general heading:
"Magic Immunity (Ex)

A colossus completely resists most magical and supernatural effects, except where otherwise noted below. "

From the stone colossus:
"Magic Immunity (Ex)

A stone colossus is immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects, except as follows. A transmute rock to mud spell slows it (as the slow spell) for 1 round, with no saving throw, while transmute mud to rock heals all its lost hit points. A stone to flesh spell has no effect on a stone colossus. "

From the Iron colossus:
"Magic Immunity (Ex)

An iron colossus is immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. An electricity effect restores 1 hit point to the iron colossus for each 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. "


Note how each and every case of Magic Immunity is a bit different, and the general case in each place specifically says refer to the monster entry for details?

Colossi are immune to magic, by RAW. Now whether the orb of acid made by a spell is no longer a spell or not, that's a bit more curious.

[gomipile]

Is the 3.5 SRD considered to be 3.5 content? Because the Colossus is in there, magic immunity and all.

[faceroll]

The SRD is 3.5 content, yes.

Marbles vs. colossi without ghosts in them would be effective.

[VirOath]

Note the DC 60 fortitude save vs. stench on the flesh golem. Going to want to avoid that.



The DC 15 reflex save rule is actually a really good one. The idea that all you have to do is fly around and drop heavy things on monsters makes the game extremely silly and ridiculous.

A DC 15 reflex save for something about the size of a man, or maybe a troll, to move it's entire body out of the way of a falling object that takes up atleast a 5x5 foot square, that makes sense.

But when the thing has to move it's entire body out of the way to dodge something that is much smaller than it? No, that's getting really silly, because you are saying that a DC 15 reflex save lets the Colossus dodge bullets, on the terms of scale.

The threat of the flying is one of the hallmarks of evolution as a whole. If you are sending a big monster out, it's best to put it in situations where it can deal with flying opponents, or have it fly itself.

Arguing the other way is the same as saying that it's silly that a fighter 20 can be taken out by a flying creature without a means to effectively fight back because they didn't buy a method of flight or invest their entire character into ranged.

Everything has a weakness, shore it up or let others exploit it.

Edit:

And the SRD sits as OGL content, not as published 3.5 content by Wizards. The Colossus sits printed in the ELH, and was never reprinted in any Wizards book, to my knowledge. Meaning that the Colossus sitting on the SRD wasn't fully converted over, because all abilities of the same name share the same effects.

It did have it's DR requirement changed, but the simple fact of magic immunity slipping in is something easy to miss, or to see as sitting in a gray area.

But again, it's 3.0 content that has to be converted over to 3.5. The SRD doesn't trump anything printed by Wizards themselves, so the SRD in of itself isn't 3.5 content. The SRD is a collection of 3.5 content but in the terms of conflict the original source reigns true.

It's up to the DM to handle the end result of any conversion, as RAW conversions are at best a guideline to change things from one system to another, in other words guided homebrew. Either the name of the ability needs to be changed to "Epic Magic Immunity" as it is an Epic Creature, or you need to change the wording of the ability to conform to existing 3.5 standards.

And to prove me wrong on this, provide two creatures that have an ability of the same name yet different workings behind them. If both of them are printed as 3.5 material, then I will step back from this point as wrong.

[Curmudgeon]

You seem to be implying that damage reduction would apply against the orb of acid here. Is that because the AMF makes it a mundane attack, or would you always put it against DR?
Whether the projectile result of an Orb spell is normally subject to damage reduction is an interesting question, but in this specific case it's because the Antimagic Field establishes that the attack can't be treated as a spell. Yet since we know that projectile reaches its target and deals its damage, it's got to be something. Hence, a normal ranged attack.

[absolmorph]

Whether the projectile result of an Orb spell is normally subject to damage reduction is an interesting question, but in this specific case it's because the Antimagic Field establishes that the attack can't be treated as a spell. Yet since we know that projectile reaches its target and deals its damage, it's got to be something. Hence, a normal ranged attack.
You apply DR to elemental damage? :smallconfused:
I'm pretty sure acid damage bypasses DR...

[VirOath]

Whether the projectile result of an Orb spell is normally subject to damage reduction is an interesting question, but in this specific case it's because the Antimagic Field establishes that the attack can't be treated as a spell. Yet since we know that projectile reaches its target and deals its damage, it's got to be something. Hence, a normal ranged attack.

There are mundane means of touch attacks, and an acid flask would still go against acid resistance. So would damage from stomach acid of a Swallow Whole ability.

If the spell creates mundane acid that is thrown at a target, I don't see anything about the spell changing.

[OneCalledBlue]

A very brave Techsmith 10 (FRFaP) with as many feats and mundane tricks as possible to increase threat range and number of attacks with a non-magical melee weapon.
Probably use some non-magical fast healing, DR etc. as well.
All you need then is just one critical hit.

Actually a speed + actions buffed build that does not rely on magical items at all. VoP could also be employed for extra help.

[Eldariel]

Well, we're at the point where you can Gate one in so the easiest solution aside from Epic spells (which specifically ignore AMFs), Invoke Magic and Initiate, is just Gating a Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires). You only need CL 26 for that anyways. This is certainly a Summon Bigger Fish-approach but there you go.

[faceroll]

And to prove me wrong on this, provide two creatures that have an ability of the same name yet different workings behind them. If both of them are printed as 3.5 material, then I will step back from this point as wrong.

I did, right there with the clay golem & the iron golem. Both have the (Ex) ability Magic Immunity, both are affected by different spells.

[VirOath]

I did, right there with the clay golem & the iron golem. Both have the (Ex) ability Magic Immunity, both are affected by different spells.
Really?


From a clay golem:
"A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.


From an iron golem:
"Immunity to Magic (Ex)

An iron golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Emphasis mine. The two abilities run under the same means, with special additions on their own.

To say that they are completely different is to say that a creature that has SR 10+HD has a completely different SR entry and mechanics compared to a creature with an SR entry of SR 15+HD. They both provide the basic mechanic, SR, with slight alterations on a case by case basis to meet their CR.

You are saying the two above abilities are using completely different entries and mechanics. They are really similar entries using the same mechanics with exceptions added to the end.

Try again.

[icefractal]

There are mundane means of touch attacks, and an acid flask would still go against acid resistance. So would damage from stomach acid of a Swallow Whole ability.You know, this would be a solution - they have no acid resistance (or any elemental resistance). Use Major Creation to make a bunch of acid, summon up some flying minions, and bombard it with acid flasks until it drops. You're going to need between 120 and 180 shots, so obtain as many minions as you can. Alchemist's Fire or just flaming oil would also work.

If your minions are undead (or you're facing a Stone Colossus), they don't even have to fly - just walk right up and start attacking it. The colossus can only kill two a round, so with a few dozen you should have no problem.

Edit: Might not work against a Flesh Colossus, it has a touch AC of 20 (the others have 0). You would need halfway decent minions. Or, you could cast Twinned + Quickened Telekinesis to hurl 60 flasks a round yourself.

[OneCalledBlue]

Techsmith 10......

[Essence_of_War]

Whether the projectile result of an Orb spell is normally subject to damage reduction is an interesting question, but in this specific case it's because the Antimagic Field establishes that the attack can't be treated as a spell. Yet since we know that projectile reaches its target and deals its damage, it's got to be something. Hence, a normal ranged attack.

Question Curmudgeon, if the effect of an orb spell clearly isn't a spell itself, why does the result need to be a mundane ranged attack? Why can't the orb created by an orb of acid be mundane energy damage, not unlike the damage done by a vial of acid or a flask of alchemist's fire?

[Drork]

True strike is a good one if your going with the cannon ball trick.
Telekinesis has a good track record against thinks you cant hit with magic missile.
Just to mix things up do the cannon ball trick but dont use cannon balls as cannon balls use trolls. They are more fun and they regenerate after they hit the ground to come back.
Thats a few ways I could come up with reasonably quickly to be effective against the foe. This is just from the PH and with out going near wish.

[lesser_minion]

It's not so much 'hard to slay' as that the only practical way I can see to try to fight it is kiting it with ranged attacks.. and then you run into the problem that the AMF emanation means there is no way for your weapons to be Epic, so you can't beat the DR, and archery tends to work off ping-damage on lots of attacks, which makes DR much more effective against it. Giving it Spell Immunity as per the normal golems just means you have some other means of taking a shot at it that doesn't require either a very particular sort of build or having an army of siege engines.

Actually, for the most part, spells that don't allow SR should also be treated as indirect effects -- i.e. they work normally even on monsters with blanket immunity to magic. The only difference is that it's now on the DM to figure out why a given spell allows no SR.


Well, I'm glad you're not a DM in my game.

Yes, if you're going on nerf it, apply RAW from a non-core book where it makes no sense, this is not going to work. But it should and in core it does.

No, in core, the only rules provided tell you how much damage is dealt when the DM decides by other means that a creature has been struck by a falling object. It's entirely up to the DM to let you try this stunt in the first place.


The ball weighs 1lb when shrunk and the wizard is trying to throw it from a height of 100ft at a 30 by 30ft target. Ruling that this is a 1 in 50 chance makes no sense. Neither does it make sense that a creature with a diameter of 30feet, who cannot run and can move as fast as a human jogs would have +18 reflex saves.

The wizard is also moving fairly quickly at this point. Way to ignore the factors that don't help your case.


All I'm saying is that it will be laughable when you tell your player that his high-level character apparently fails time and time again to toss a small metal ball at what is without exaggeration the broad side of a barn-sized target just a hundred feet below. And when you describe the nimble, cheeta-like evasion reflexes of the creature that is supposed to be a stereotypical limbering giant, well... If the players weren't looking at you funny before, they will be now. Depends on the players, of course.

So you'd rather the game provide no rules whatsoever for dropping objects on people beyond simply noting how much damage it does? And I assume that your wizard has perfect manoeuvrability? (the colossus can be as 'still' as it likes, what matters is the relative speed between the colossus and the wizard).


Whether the projectile result of an Orb spell is normally subject to damage reduction is an interesting question, but in this specific case it's because the Antimagic Field establishes that the attack can't be treated as a spell. Yet since we know that projectile reaches its target and deals its damage, it's got to be something. Hence, a normal ranged attack.

Force and energy damage always bypasses DR, whether it originates from a spell or not.

[supermonkeyjoe]

And why it clearly should not happen? Because even I could probably hit that shot if the colossus was still, and a creature the size of a three-storey house should not be able to jump out of the way from a rock thrown at it 19 times out of 20.

Of course you could hit it, it has a touch AC of -1, the problem is hitting it in a way that would do meaningful damage hence the massive natural armour bonus. You're also assuming that the reflex save means the colossus has to completely dodge the projectile like Neo dodging bullets in the matrix, would your suspension of disbelief be utterly crushed if the DM said that the Colossus shifts slightly to to one side and the projectile deflects harmlessly off it?

[Noneoyabizzness]

Force and energy damage always bypasses DR, whether it originates from a spell or not.

pretty much this siege engines and giant acid vials.

spells casters either
a) cast spells to make acid and giant vials as well as siege engines
b)low level casters have alchemy (post 3.5 only casters get craft alchemy)
3) buff the wis of the people using the engines to get the attack fast and the into to get the catapult attack right

collosi make for epic plot devices that a lower level thinking party can take down and reap huge exp gains

[Essence_of_War]

Force and energy damage always bypasses DR, whether it originates from a spell or not.

Ah, precisely the answer I was looking for.

[mootoall]

Haha, spellcasters can *always* do something everything. I'd wonder more about what the poor Fighter is going to do without his magic items/weapons/armor trying to make a dent in that DR/Epic ...

[Techsmart]

I don't have many books outside of the basic necessities, but if a player tried to do something like that to me, I would probably pull out the dmg and look in the traps section. there are instances of falling blocks traps, which perform a function similar to what is being tried here. The falling blocks trap is an attack roll that deals 6d6 damage. In the case of the cannon balls, I would say do the same thing. Make an attack roll (touch attack doesn't really make sense, TBH, since it just says that you made contact. armor can protect you from falling objects), and if it hits, deal 6d6. I can see where the books came from the with reflex save, but this is how I would rule it, personally. Maybe a little extra damage if you use something big and heavy enough, but the rest would be the same.

[dextercorvia]

Cheater of Mystra isn't just for Clerics....

Simple Stub

Human Wizard10/Contemplative10

Feats:

1:Arcane Mastery
3:Southern Magician
6:Arcane Thesis (Orb of X)
15: Initiate of Mystra

Items: Prayer Bead (Karma)

Add metamagic to taste. With your Prayer Bead active, you can auto succeed on the 36 DC CL check to cast your Metamagiced Orb from inside the AMF.

[Doc Roc]

Cheater of Mystra isn't just for Clerics....

Simple Stub

Human Wizard10/Contemplative10

Feats:

1:Arcane Mastery
3:Southern Magician
6:Arcane Thesis (Orb of X)
15: Initiate of Mystra

Items: Prayer Bead (Karma)

Add metamagic to taste. With your Prayer Bead active, you can auto succeed on the 36 DC CL check to cast your Metamagiced Orb from inside the AMF.

:: fist bump ::
If you'd like, guys, I can give that build some additional....
Zaazzzzzz.


Face, good catch on the marbles! I think the Flesh Colossus is probably the most dangerous of the set, so we should focus on killing it.

[Curmudgeon]

Force and energy damage always bypasses DR, whether it originates from a spell or not.
Yeah, I goofed there, confused because damage reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) doesn't actually refer to energy damage; it instead says that "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones)", and I thought the attack had to be only energy to qualify. Part of the confusion stems from some 3.0 material with entries like "DR 5/fire" (damage reduction bypassed by fire implies that DR is normally subtracted from fire damage), and WotC's conversion rules (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) never addressed this case. :smallconfused:

Where are you getting that "force bypasses DR" as a general rule? That's a specific property of the force projectile weapon enhancement (Magic Item Compendium, page 35). I don't see how DR wouldn't apply to an Orb of Force in an Antimagic Field.

Items: Prayer Bead (Karma)

Add metamagic to taste. With your Prayer Bead active, you can auto succeed on the 36 DC CL check to cast your Metamagiced Orb from inside the AMF.
The problem, of course, is that your Strand of Prayer Beads (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) isn't going to be active in an Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm). :smallbiggrin:

[Doc Roc]

Yeah, I goofed there, confused because damage reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) doesn't actually refer to energy damage; it instead says that "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones)", and I thought the attack had to be only energy to qualify. Part of the confusion stems from some 3.0 material with entries like "DR 5/fire" (damage reduction bypassed by fire implies that DR is normally subtracted from fire damage), and WotC's conversion rules (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) never addressed this case. :smallconfused:

Where are you getting that "force bypasses DR" as a general rule? That's a specific property of the force projectile weapon enhancement (Magic Item Compendium, page 35). I don't see how DR wouldn't apply to an Orb of Force in an Antimagic Field.

The problem, of course, is that your Strand of Prayer Beads (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) isn't going to be active in an Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm). :smallbiggrin:

CL 36 dude. Think about the range that gives your orbs. Besides, CL 32 is no shamed face. Only a 15% chance to bork up, and honestly, the poor golem can never-ever catch up to you if you have even just fiendish wing grafts. He's dead like a doornail.

[tyckspoon]

CL 36 dude. Think about the range that gives your orbs. Besides, CL 32 is no shamed face. Only a 15% chance to bork up, and honestly, the poor golem can never-ever catch up to you if you have even just fiendish wing grafts. He's dead like a doornail.

Well, if you're gonna be launching from outside the AMF zone anyway then you have no need to go for a Cheater build, do you?

[Doc Roc]

Well, if you're gonna be launching from outside the AMF zone anyway then you have no need to go for a Cheater build, do you?

Cheater's got some advantages, though, and lets us get OUT of the AMF if we get caught by surprise.

[dextercorvia]

@Curmudgeon, I did miss that. Is there any reason that our Bead of Karma needs line of effect outside of our person, or could it simply be under our shirt?

Create Magic Tatoo. Ring of Arcane Might, under a gauntlet. We can UMD a scroll of Hymn of Praise for another +2.

@Doc -- I'd love to see what you've got.

[Doc Roc]

@Curmudgeon, I did miss that. Is there any reason that our Bead of Karma needs line of effect outside of our person, or could it simply be under our shirt?

Create Magic Tatoo. Ring of Arcane Might, under a gauntlet. We can UMD a scroll of Hymn of Praise for another +2.

@Doc -- I'd love to see what you've got.

Have you seen my New Hotness? It's a way to get into dweomerkeeper without losing caster levels.

[Curmudgeon]

@Curmudgeon, I did miss that. Is there any reason that our Bead of Karma needs line of effect outside of our person, or could it simply be under our shirt?
Under your shirt makes it certain to be nerfed by the Antimagic Field:
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you If the Bead of Karma can affect you, it's going to be suppressed by the Antimagic Field centered on you.

[tyckspoon]

Under your shirt makes it certain to be nerfed by the Antimagic Field: If the Bead of Karma can affect you, it's going to be suppressed by the Antimagic Field centered on you.

Which would be relevant were our Cheater actually intending to cast his own AMF, as per the usual operation. In this case, he's working on breaking through the field generated by an external creature.

[Doc Roc]

Which would be relevant were our Cheater actually intending to cast his own AMF, as per the usual operation. In this case, he's working on breaking through the field generated by an external creature.

I'm actually not sure you need the bead nearby at all, once it's active.

[dextercorvia]

Have you seen my New Hotness? It's a way to get into dweomerkeeper without losing caster levels.

No, but this guy can, too. I was just keeping him simple for this application. What is your method?

Edit: @Curmudgeon -- What tyckspoon said.

[subject42]

Have you seen my New Hotness? It's a way to get into dweomerkeeper without losing caster levels.

Southern Magician, or something better?

[Doc Roc]

Southern Magician, or something better?

Sandwich trick into a lillend. They're miswritten so that their bard levels are technically a natural ability.

[Tael]

Sandwich trick into a lillend. They're miswritten so that their bard levels are technically a natural ability.

Ah, I love the smell of poorly written abilities in the morning.

[herrhauptmann]

This one depends on where you are, but if you're near a real high cliff that has thin enough borders, conjure up any bridge (be it a force one or a stone/rock one or whatever) that the colossus could also step on. Go to the other side, by running, Dimensional Door or Teleport. Watch the biggest pratfall in the history of mankind as the colossus sees the bridge, advances to get you, and either steps on nothing when he reaches the bridge or falls through the avalanche he'll create when he steps on the thin parts.
Wall of Stone/Iron won't disappear in an AMF I believe. It's permanent after all. The wall of force would disappear in the AMF right? Unfortunately 100 feet (2 turns?) before the colossus gets there.


Under your shirt makes it certain to be nerfed by the Antimagic Field: If the Bead of Karma can affect you, it's going to be suppressed by the Antimagic Field centered on you.
Does the bead of karma work similar to the nightstick, where you just need it in your possession for it to work? Which is why I think a lot people try to stick them in a bankvault so the DM doesn't pick their pockets. If the bankvault isn't kosher, why not just stick it in the handy haversack? Just because you can't access the multidimensional space at that moment doesn't mean you don't have possession of the item.

[Doc Roc]

Actually WoF is unaffected by AMF.

[herrhauptmann]

Actually WoF is unaffected by AMF.

But the Forcecage is? Or did the giant change a rule slightly in favor of story?

[Doc Roc]

But the Forcecage is? Or did the giant change a rule slightly in favor of story?

The latter.

[Privateer]

Of course you could hit it, it has a touch AC of -1, the problem is hitting it in a way that would do meaningful damage hence the massive natural armour bonus. You're also assuming that the reflex save means the colossus has to completely dodge the projectile like Neo dodging bullets in the matrix, would your suspension of disbelief be utterly crushed if the DM said that the Colossus shifts slightly to to one side and the projectile deflects harmlessly off it?

Thank you, that's my point. The thing should be ridiculously easy to hit, being so big and clumsy. Once you do hit, then it's a matter of hitting with enough energy to punch through its armor, and that can be achieved by more mass. 1 or 1/2 lb projectiles are easy to carry and throw, but if they don't work, you can try bigger ones. Shrink Item does 2cu.ft/lvl so at CL20, your lead projectiles would expand to become up to 13 tons each, and by CL32 that you need to hit it with orbs, you can be throwing around 20+ton balls. That's gotta be a little unpleasant. :)

But my point is not that it's a fool-proof way to kill the thing. If I said something along these lines before, I apologize; I was a bit upset when folks replied to a conceptual idea with rule-lawyering from books I don't use. I merely mean that it is a conceivable solution and it should be, not in the least because it's fun to try!

The other point is that rules for things like this are somewhat arbitrary and inconsistent, as my example showed, and therefore should be used as guidelines and not viewed like holy scriptures. Can you say the Colossus dodged? Sure. Can you say its armor appears too tough for it to be damaged by 4000lb of falling lead? Absolutely. Can you still say the same after I come back with 13 tons of lead the next day? Probably still feasible, or you can decide to make it do some damage, all is good fun. If I can't punch through with 13 tons, I'm at my limit, I'll have to come up with something else, or try to glue several objects together or something. It's still all fun.

But can you, in response to a player's action pull out several dusted books, dig through them, and then tell your player the Colossus can never(except natural 1s) be damaged by this kind of attack no matter the weight because the rule says it gets a DC15 reflex save, which it can make in a heartbeat? Not without destroying the fun.

If you let the Colossus be killed in this way, does it mean you can drop stuff at monsters all the time and no longer play the game? Not with a good DM. Because, again, rules are not holy scriptures and the same DM that let you hit a Colossus with your falling balls can well rule that a dragon is in fact too agile to be taken out like that.

[Another_Poet]

All Conjuration (Creation) spells with a duration of instantaneous, if cast from outside the AMF and fired into the AMF, will work fine.

[FireJustice]

Nobody ever suggested it.

Lava. They're not immune to fire.

Trap it with Force walls, Force Cage
Pour lava inside

20d6 total immersion.
Will take a time (beating DR30 if ruled as 3.0)
But will kill it
Collosus Hot Soup

And well, at CR 32, you can expect the party have some minor artifact at least, means AMF isnt total shutdowns

Kill it with fireeeeeee

[Eloel]

You guys are missing the easiest approach. Add a level of Warblade.



IRON HEART SURGE!

[dextercorvia]

Sandwich trick into a lillend. They're miswritten so that their bard levels are technically a natural ability.

Okay. I have seen you use that trick.

[ffone]

You guys are missing the easiest approach. Add a level of Warblade.



IRON HEART SURGE!

See, but Iron Heart Surge is a reply to basically every thread, so we stopped saying it.

[PetterTomBos]

We're talking about flying wizards with balls of magically shrinked metal, and then we worry about pure physics?

I tend to look at a reflex save as much as a way to throw your hand up in your face than to dodge something. When you reflex save against a fireball I don't necessarily imagine the character leaping to the side, he may just as well manage to get his arm before his eyes, and thus take less dmg. Perhaps the colossus sees the projectile and have his arm (or other limb?) protect himself against it?

[Flickerdart]

If the Colossus has Infinite Deflection, he can (debatably) just snatch your lead balls from the air. Although they don't seem to have a feats section listed in the SRD (even if they didn't get feats, they should still have a row in the stat block for them, but they do get them because they have INT scores). Way to edit, WotC.

[OneCalledBlue]

I still say it, Techsmith 10. You can build a pretty good caster with Techsmith that doesn't need to rely on magic items to get a good crit chance against the Colossus.

[Jothki]

Since Colossi are Epic, the obvious solution would be to use an epic spell to snatch a meteorite from space or an enormous chunk of stone from the Elemental Plane of Earth or something like that and place it in the upper atmosphere directly over the target.

Any thoughts on how to actually build that, though?

[Tyndmyr]

Chaos shuffle a feat to Distant Shot for a bit, and toss rocks at it.

I do believe that should take care of it in pretty short order.

[Eldariel]

Chaos shuffle a feat to Distant Shot for a bit, and toss rocks at it.

I do believe that should take care of it in pretty short order.

Depends. Flesh Colossus does have enough feats to qualify for Infinite Deflection which would make ranged attacks pretty pointless overall. Of course, taking Epic Dexterity 19 times is kinda waste but for the sake of argument, it could be done (it gets 26 epic feats).

[Sims]

Can Epic Spells be cast in an AMF?

[Eldariel]

Can Epic Spells be cast in an AMF?

Pretty much. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld)

[Lhurgyof]

If the Colossus has Infinite Deflection, he can (debatably) just snatch your lead balls from the air. Although they don't seem to have a feats section listed in the SRD (even if they didn't get feats, they should still have a row in the stat block for them, but they do get them because they have INT scores). Way to edit, WotC.

Epic Deflection, Infinite Deflection, and Reflect Arrows.

Have fun people. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Epic Deflection, Infinite Deflection, and Reflect Arrows.

Have fun people. :smalltongue:

Exceptional Deflection requires 19 Wis tho; you won't have enough feats to pick both, it and Infinite unless you get a spirit with Wis that high to possess a Flesh Colossus. In that case, tho, you can have both.

[Lhurgyof]

Exceptional Deflection requires 19 Wis tho; you won't have enough feats to pick both, it and Infinite unless you get a spirit with Wis that high to possess a Flesh Colossus. In that case, tho, you can have both.

Ah, but then the wizard would have a lot of trouble taking this thing down.

Because, if he tries most of the previously mentioned solutions, he'll end up taking a slight beating.

[Eldariel]

Ah, but then the wizard would have a lot of trouble taking this thing down.

Because, if he tries most of the previously mentioned solutions, he'll end up taking a slight beating.

Or he casts Gate and gets a Hecatoncheires to beat it up. Seriously, no need to get fancy when you can just press "I win".

[gomipile]

What I am interested in, is what a Psion or Wilder can do to a Colossus using their powers. Are there equivalents of instantaneous conjurations for psionic powers other than a spell to power erudite's copies of arcane conjurations? I suppose there's always Expansion + flight and dropping things on it from a height, but I'm hoping for something as direct as an Orb spell, but for psionics.

[Telok]

Crystal Shard will work if you can get the range. Hail of Crystals will work.

Ectoplasmic Shambler? Tornado Blast? I'm not sure about these.

Quintessence could have interesting effects if you had enough of it.

[gomipile]

Crystal Shard will work if you can get the range. Hail of Crystals will work.

Ectoplasmic Shambler? Tornado Blast? I'm not sure about these.

Quintessence could have interesting effects if you had enough of it.

Well, doesn't the DR apply to the crystal powers, since they do typed slashing damage? And double on Hail of Crystals, since it does a chunk of Bludgeoning and a chunk of Slashing?

Tornado Blast seems to work though, since it does untyped psionic (magic) damage.