Elans: Are they supposed to be that strong?

[Welknair]

Hey all. In my campaign my players are swiftly approaching the island of my world which I have designated as "Psionic". As such, I've been drawing up a couple of NPCs for them to encounter. I went about making a relatively standard Elan Psion who is 13th level (My players are currently 11 and have a bit to go before they get there). The Resistance and Resilience abilities seems quite powerful to me. So they can choose to get +4 to all saves for a single PP and they can reduce any damage they take by 2 for each 1 PP they spend (Albeit once per round). This character has just under 200 PP. ... So he could potentially take more damage (a lot more) than my party's Barbarian? Admittedly, he'd have to forgo the use of other powers to make full use of this, but this seems quite powerful. And then he has the standard "Mind Thrust" power. 1d10 per PP spent? With an increasing DC? So he can deal 13d10 damage as a standard action, with a quite high DC, a large number of times per day? That seems a bit on the powerful side... Back to the whole Elan thing - So they can also forgo food and water, they need only paltry meditation (Full 8 hour rest for regenerating PP, of course), have massive lifespans, and as the only mitigating factor have a -2 to Cha.

I know that the supernatural systems in 3.5 were never terribly balanced to the rest of the game, but this just seems somewhat excessive. Is there something I'm missing?

[Yukitsu]

Burning through 1 resource pool for attack, defense and everything in between, on a more limited, short duration pool than spells means this guy will run out of gas in an instant if you play him with 13 PP manifestations, tanking hits with his power points. Unlike a 13th level caster who would have all day buffs, including weaker tanky spells that cost less, and have aut scaling spells, many of which instantly kill rather than doling out d10s.

Remember, a 13PP first level psionic ability uses as many resources as a 7th level spell, and in mind thrust's case, is save negates. At a 7th level spell, I could simply say "pass this save or instantly die".

[Welknair]

Well if he's played near as smart as his INT, he won't be taking hits near at all. The point is the few times when he is hit, especially by a larger SA or a Barbarian Rage, he'd be able to survive it. It wouldn't be sustainable, but that kind of survivability just isn't seen in primary casters. And at 13d10 upwards of 15 times per day... That's an average of 71.5 Damage. That'd either kill or seriously injure most anything at his level.

And given his quite high Concentration, he can use most of his abilities without any display. It's possible for him to appear like a random commoner while controlling and slaughtering all he passes. With no increased PP cost.

[dgnslyr]

Mind Thrust is mind-affecting. Throw things without minds at him if you feel he's having too easy of a time. However, the DC scales only half as fast as a normal caster's spells, because it's only +1 DC/2 PP, unlike a normal caster where it's +1 DC/1 spell level. Besides, if he's burning up his resources like that for just some one-shot damage, I say let him. There are worse things you can do with a Psion.

[tyckspoon]

The biggest limiters on the ability are the PP burn, which has been covered, and the action burn. The Elan racial abilities require an Immediate action to use. That means, barring going into psionic action-economy cheese, 1 per turn, and he has to be very very careful about using Swift actions if he wants his racial abilities available to save himself. No Hustle- you might need that to soak the BFS. No Energy Adaptation to instantly put up a defense when you find out what your opponent's like to blast with. No Quickened Powers. And all of that caution is so you can do something once/turn- if you use Resistance to slip by the save on that Finger of Death, you're now open to eating that Rage-boosted Power Attack, and vice-versa.. not to mention what happens if the players simply perform Standard Attack Routines and have the Rogue and Barbarian flank the dude.

[Yukitsu]

Well if he's played near as smart as his INT, he won't be taking hits near at all. The point is the few times when he is hit, especially by a larger SA or a Barbarian Rage, he'd be able to survive it. It wouldn't be sustainable, but that kind of survivability just isn't seen in primary casters. And at 13d10 upwards of 15 times per day... That's an average of 71.5 Damage. That'd either kill or seriously injure most anything at his level.

And given his quite high Concentration, he can use most of his abilities without any display. It's possible for him to appear like a random commoner while controlling and slaughtering all he passes. With no increased PP cost.

Well, if that's how you feel, run one against a full caster a few times, see how it compares.

[Seerow]

13th level Psion has 147 base PP, you say he's just under 200 total, so we'll give him 26 int (+52 PP) for a total of 199 PP. This gives him 15 casts of 13d10 damage that you indicated.


13th level Wizard with 26 Int:

0-4
1-6
2-6
3-6
4-6
5-4
6-3
7-2


Now, I'm not a Wizard expert, but from a pure numbers standpoint, before accounting for metamagic, a 5th level spell slot will still cap at caster level 15, so you have at least 9 slots that can be used with your full CL of 13 boosting the damage.

And of course, I'm sure Wizards have metamagic tools that can just let them blow past anything the Psion is capable of, I'm sure someone can come in and give you the most optimum use of those spell slots for blasting that will get you something like 30d6 out of those 7th level slots, and a little less at the lower level ones.




And of course, there's always the option of a Fighter or Rogue build that can pump out the 70 damage per round your Psion is averaging every round without fail with no limitation on how many times they can do it. At this level it doesn't even require a terrible amount of optimization. (If you want to optimize I'm sure you could get a charger build that average several times that)


What I'm trying to say is if your Psion is focusing that much into blasting and that's all he's really doing, be happy. Psions have almost as many creative tools they can use to break the game as a wizard, and if he wants to blast/mind crush people rather than use them? So much the better. Raw damage is an easy trick to deal with.

[Kyeudo]

Vigor gives you a MUCH better return on your power point investment, 5 temporary hp per power point spent, and is availible to all psionic characters regardless of race. With Share Pain and a Psicrystal, you can make this better than 10 hp per power point. Psions have always been better tanks than Barbarians or Fighters. It's part of what makes them Tier 2.

[Welknair]

One of the interesting things is that he's not a blaster. That's the run-of-the-mill picked one first-level offensive power. He's a Telepath who generally will control an enemy and prefers not to fight. I was just astonished that you could do that with a 1st level power. Though when you boost it to 13d10 it really is a 7th level power...

Sorry for the noobish-ness. I just have never used Psionics before, and haven't even made more than a couple of test characters. Just a tad surprised to see that a d4 primary caster could actually tank somewhat.

[imperialspectre]

Well if he's played near as smart as his INT, he won't be taking hits near at all. The point is the few times when he is hit, especially by a larger SA or a Barbarian Rage, he'd be able to survive it. It wouldn't be sustainable, but that kind of survivability just isn't seen in primary casters. And at 13d10 upwards of 15 times per day... That's an average of 71.5 Damage. That'd either kill or seriously injure most anything at his level.

First off, level 13 characters don't die to 72 damage nukes. Not when said nukes are Will Negates - the only characters with HP pools that are threatened by that kind of nuke are going to literally laugh it off, because psionic save DCs are bad.

Second, immediate-action damage negation is good at level 1, because you don't use swift actions and your immediates that screw up the action economy aren't online yet. It's fantastic at level 5, when you have the power points to actually use damage negation and save boosts. At level 13? Any psion that's spending immediate actions on a defense that only tanks one attack is a fool, especially when that raging, charging barbarian is almost certainly going to have 3 or 4 attacks on that charge.

Third, if you think soaking HP damage from one attack is "survivability not seen in primary casters," I would like to direct your attention to the layered defensive spells, or outright damage immunity, easily available to primary spellcasters.

The bottom line is, a psion at this level needs to be using immediate-action interrupts (like Anticipatory Strike) or Vigor tanking for defense, and should generally be using Ego Whip spam or legitimately good offensive powers rather than Mind Thrust. This psion NPC is actually underpowered as a threat against competent PCs.


And given his quite high Concentration, he can use most of his abilities without any display. It's possible for him to appear like a random commoner while controlling and slaughtering all he passes. With no increased PP cost.

That's great, when you're attacking mooks. You can have quite the decent murder mystery going with this guy. Just don't be under any illusions about what happens as soon as the PCs actually find him, because he's going to get roflstomped.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As a more powerful idea of what you can do... Death Urge. Particularly on a charging barbarian, now THAT's got some damage potential. Works really well on Rogues as well, since all attacks are with full sneak attack dice on himself.

[Psyren]

It wouldn't be sustainable, but that kind of survivability just isn't seen in primary casters.

You mean a 13th-level primary caster has no survivability? :smallconfused:

Even in core, a wizard has gotten Stoneskin... oh, 6 levels ago.

[Doc Roc]

You mean a 13th-level primary caster has no survivability? :smallconfused:

Even in core, a wizard has gotten Stoneskin... oh, 6 levels ago.

Doesn't really get terribly interesting without Enhanced Elan Resilience, and one of the many PP regen tricks. Oh or Body Leech. Or Subverted Psion.

It's not going to be quite on the same level as a true 'house of a caster build, but it is still a psion, and by no means weak. Besides, most people don't play magi quite the way we do, so a psion tanking ~400 points of damage is pretty neat.

[Fizban]

That means, barring going into psionic action-economy cheese, 1 per turn, and he has to be very very careful about using Swift actions if he wants his racial abilities available to save himself.
Using a Swift action doesn't stop you from using an Immediate action, it's the other way around. The Immediate action burns up the Swift action of your next turn. This means you've always got the counter ready, but using it will limit your options next round. For melee types it means losing access to a bunch of swift action boosts and trinkets if you have to defend yourself, for a psion it means.... not using Hustle?

*Side note: yes, this action interaction is weird. It's actually what enables the Bard to get +3 Inspire Courage with a single level. Swift action for the Inspirational Boost spell, standard to start singing, and immediate to activate the Badge of Valor, all in the same turn. Depending on the game and what other items the bard has, it's either no cost at all, or a crippling inability to defend himself and fight back for an entire turn.

[Jeraa]

Mind Thrust is mind-affecting. Throw things without minds at him if you feel he's having too easy of a time. However, the DC scales only half as fast as a normal caster's spells, because it's only +1 DC/2 PP, unlike a normal caster where it's +1 DC/1 spell level. Besides, if he's burning up his resources like that for just some one-shot damage, I say let him. There are worse things you can do with a Psion.

Not true. Look at how many power points are needed to manifest a power - it goes up by 2 every power level. (1st level needs 1pp, 2nd level needs 3pp, 3rd level needs 5pp, etc.) So the save DC scales at the same rate as a caster.

[Psyren]

Doesn't really get terribly interesting without Enhanced Elan Resilience, and one of the many PP regen tricks. Oh or Body Leech. Or Subverted Psion.

Why blow feats? Vigor + Share Pain. Any psion can be a sponge, not just Elans.

The one advantage ER has over Vigor (given that it's less efficient even with the feat expense) is that you have an argument for preventing poison and disease from taking effect as well.

[FMArthur]

Well, and it's reactive and proportionate at the moment you get hit and costs no action. Sure, if you know ahead of time via Forced Dream or something how much Vigor you'd like before the attack, then Vigor might be better... if you've got an action free and the ability to renew it each round for free. Otherwise I'll take Enhanced Elan Resistance any day.

[Welknair]

Hmm. That's quite a deal to think about. So I'm going to re-make this particular character, utilizing a bit of what I've heard here. However, I am open to advice.

Things to keep in mind:
13th level, all in Psionics-Progressing classes
Elan
My party isn't terribly optimized
Specialized in controlling others
Con-Man, black-market-dealer, or similar
Needs some things up his sleeves in case things get messy
Prefers to just get out of there rather than go around killing

I have little to know experience with Psionics. I know how it works, just not what's good. Hopefully he's not going to have to take on my entire party. So, ideas?

[Kajhera]

Shaper who sells products of minor creation on the black market? You could bring a lot of ... plot hooks ... your way like that. :smallwink:

Okay, telepath would probably be better. Seer could be interesting too. Thrallherd would be fairly perfect but potentially rather too powerful for your group - maybe use it as a network of contacts.

I find Ego Whip the most useful lowish-level will-save-targeting offensive mind-affecting power, personally. Daze is a powerful effect, and without immunity to mind affecting, you will be able to do something even if they make their save.

Temporal Acceleration is a good power for buffing, setting up doom, or getting the heck outta dodge. Pretty good sleeve to have things up.

[Moriato]

because psionic save DCs are bad.



Wait... how do you figure? They're the same as any full caster, even better, actually, when you consider that most full casters can't increase the save DC like a psion can without using heighten spell. Almost every power's save DC goes up by one for every 2PP you pump into it (essentially every "spell level")

[Prime32]

However, the DC scales only half as fast as a normal caster's spells, because it's only +1 DC/2 PP, unlike a normal caster where it's +1 DC/1 spell level.
Umm... :smallconfused:

Lv1 power: 1pp
Lv2 power: 3pp
Lv3 power: 5pp
Lv4 power: 7pp
etc.

As for psionics' weaknesses:
The psionic version of fireball will always deal 5d6 damage. However, anyone who knows it also knows a 4th-level version that deals 7d6 damage, a 5th-level version that deals 9d6 damage, etc.
A 10th-level wizard uses a 3rd-level slot to deal 10d6 damage. A psion uses a 51/2th level slot for the same thing.


EDIT: Constructs, undead, plants, oozes, vermin, and a number of other creatures are immune to mind thrust, and casters will ignore it due to high Will saves. And are you seriously counting "long lifespan" as overpowered? :smalltongue:

[imperialspectre]

Wait... how do you figure? They're the same as any full caster, even better, actually, when you consider that most full casters can't increase the save DC like a psion can without using heighten spell. Almost every power's save DC goes up by one for every 2PP you pump into it (essentially every "spell level")

Psionic scaling DCs equate to paying the cost of Heighten Spell. 2 power points per spell level. That means that you're paying the full cost of what a normal caster would have to pay to get the "default" spell DC for a spell of that level. So that washes.

Unfortunately for psions (or fortunately in terms of game balance), psionics simply lacks a lot of the good methods for increasing save DCs beyond that default level/decreasing enemy save bonuses. They don't even have comparable dispelling options. So since it's fairly easy to resist normally-scaled spell DCs with a couple buffs and a decent class, psionic save DCs just aren't that good.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, I created a character for Test of Spite that worked on this principle, although somewhat nastier about it.

Empathic Feedback + Empathic Transfer, Hostile + Vigor on a PsiWar chassis

You hit me. Good, you take damage. Now I take damage, but it's probably not going to kill me. Now you take as much damage as I just took, and I heal that damage back. Or, if I want to get *REALLY* nasty, I simply augment it, and now ALL enemies take as much damage as I just took, Will save for half, and I heal the total amount of damage dealt.

Go ahead, hurt me. Please. Let me share with you the bliss that is pain...

I named him Shinji Ikari, because he's the most emo character alive.

[grimbold]

elans can be rather tough
what is the composition of the party?
that could give me some ideas

[Moriato]

Psionic scaling DCs equate to paying the cost of Heighten Spell. 2 power points per spell level. That means that you're paying the full cost of what a normal caster would have to pay to get the "default" spell DC for a spell of that level. So that washes.

Unfortunately for psions (or fortunately in terms of game balance), psionics simply lacks a lot of the good methods for increasing save DCs beyond that default level/decreasing enemy save bonuses. They don't even have comparable dispelling options. So since it's fairly easy to resist normally-scaled spell DCs with a couple buffs and a decent class, psionic save DCs just aren't that good.

Heighten spell doesn't increase the power of a spell, however. Augmenting it does, and often gives other nifty bonuses, like effecting more types of creatures, or being able to use it as a swift or move action, and a psion doesn't need to take any feats to do any of that. Also Psionic powers pretty much never have caps, as spells do (10d6 for a fireball, for example). That's one very nice thing about powers, they'll often be just as useful at level 20 as they were at level 1.

As far as increasing the DCs even more, there's two feats I can think of off the top of my head to increase your save DCs, by +1 and +2 respectively, I forget the name at the moment, similar to what other spellcasters get. You can increase your main casting ability, just like a wizard would. Also with any of the "Energy _____" line of spells, if you choose electricity it's an automatic +2 bonus to save DCs and caster level checks for power penetration.

Barring shenanigans, I really don't see wizards and sorcs having any more ways to increase their DCs than psionic characters do.

[sonofzeal]

Wizard
- Can have more spells known
- Has many more choices for spells
- Damage scales automatically
- DCs don't scale without Heighten Spell
- Better Necromancy, Abjuration, Illusion, and Conjuration effects
- More magic item support
- Far better magic item crafting capabilities


Psion
- Powers are often more flexible than corresponding spells
- Must pay extra pp to scale damage
- DC scales with damage even without Metamagic
- Better Evocation-esque and Enchantment-esque effects
- Can wear armor without ASF
- Far harder to hamper by grapple/restraint/silence

[Psyren]

Well, and it's reactive and proportionate at the moment you get hit and costs no action. Sure, if you know ahead of time via Forced Dream or something how much Vigor you'd like before the attack, then Vigor might be better... if you've got an action free and the ability to renew it each round for free. Otherwise I'll take Enhanced Elan Resistance any day.

Vigor is minutes/level and share pain is hours. No need to "renew it every round," just frontload it.

Oh, you don't know when you'll be attacked? That's okay, you're a 13th-level psion. Temporal Acceleration, Anticipatory Strike, Twinned Synchronicity, Schism, Contingency etc. are all in your price range. Even if you wait until combat starts to buff, catching you off-guard is nearly impossible.

I would much rather spend a feat on EK:Schism or Twin Power (or even Linked Power/Quicken Power) than on EER, even if I'm the Elaniest Elan to ever Elan.

As for Heighten vs. Augment, that's yet another feat to do what a psion can do built-in. Not to mention Still and Silent Spell. Now, I'm not at all saying psions are stronger than wizards (they aren't), but credit where credit is due, psions do have strengths.


@ Sonofzeal: Clairsentience is also generally stronger than Divination.

[Teron]

*Side note: yes, this action interaction is weird. It's actually what enables the Bard to get +3 Inspire Courage with a single level. Swift action for the Inspirational Boost spell, standard to start singing, and immediate to activate the Badge of Valor, all in the same turn. Depending on the game and what other items the bard has, it's either no cost at all, or a crippling inability to defend himself and fight back for an entire turn.
That doesn't work. An immediate action used on your turn counts as that turn's swift action. It's only when used off-turn that it counts as the next turn's.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions

[tyckspoon]

That doesn't work. An immediate action used on your turn counts as that turn's swift action. It's only when used off-turn that it counts as the next turn's.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions

Nah, it works fine. You just go Swift->Standard->End Turn->Immediate. There's no discernable difference between that and doing it during your actual turn, but that's the action order if you somehow manage to generate a situation where it matters (somebody has a Readied Action to bonk a target once you start singing, so they manage to do it once your music is in effect but before you apply the Immediate booster?)

[Teron]

That works fine if the badge can be activated any time after you've started singing (I'm not familiar with it), but it's not "all in the same turn" as he said, and other situations may not allow that workaround. If you catch yourself in the area of your own quickened energy ball, for instance, you can't use the elan racial abilities to protect yourself. Or, to give a less contrived example, you can't use the Iron Heart counter that lets you reroll an attack if you've used a boost that turn.

[Welknair]

elans can be rather tough
what is the composition of the party?
that could give me some ideas

They are composed of:

11th level Evoker, not terribly optimized
11th level Barbarian, slightly moreso
Swashbuckler 5/Dread Pirate 6, You can probably guess that one.
Rogue 5/Shadowdancer 5/Wizard 1, Uh... Yeah. I tried to talk him out of it, but...
Cleric 3/Arcane Engineer 3/Engineer of the Dual Path 5, Versatile, but not too tough. Can make devices to cast most spells.
Barbarian 11, Sentience Mechanical 5 (ECL 13), Quite tough for short periods, but can't sustain said power. GMPC. Mainly has large magic gun.
Generalist Wizard 4, NPC member. Absolutely amazing, though not "Optimized"
Cleric 9, 'Nother NPC. Decent, but not super.

I was intending to have this potential Psion be an ally to the group at some point, not necessarily an enemy. However, the level and strength discussion is primarily due to my want not to have him overshadow the group, nor be too weak to be useful.

And to subvert offtopic discussion: Yes, I have three GMPCs. They're generally in the background. And the "Arcane Engineer", "Engineer of the Dual Path", and "Sentience Mechanical" are all homebrews by me.