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Rhuadin
2011-03-18, 01:00 AM
If you were expecting a discussion of good versus evil, you're going to have to look elsewhere.

With that out of the way:

You're a paladin. You worship the goddess of the harvest. As a symbol of your devotion, you have been bestowed an artifact; it is a cornucopia from which you may summon a bounty. You have been sent to alleviate hunger.

Now this horn of plenty is special. You may expend one charge to magically satiate a target for 24 hours. This effect requires no line of sight -- so you can feed anyone anywhere. Each day, for every 10 charges that remain (rounded down), it gains an additional charge. Thus if you have 40 charges, in the morning you will have 44. If you ever fall below 10, you will never gain another charge. There is no upper limit of charges. You always know how many charges are remaining in your artifact. This artifact grants you knowledge and location of all individuals who are dangerously malnourished. It starts with 50 charges.

How would you use this gift? Could you justify feeding someone if you were down to 10 charges, knowing that food would not regenerate from that point on? On the other hand, could you justify accumulating so many charges that you could feed everyone in the world every day from the new charges, knowing that until you reach that point people are dying of starvation?

Your goddess is very hands off and provides no guidance. She is also forgiving and will not cause you to fall regardless of what you do. (Aha, so this Paladin scenario also doesn't involve falling ;) )

Bonus scenarios:
What if both the artifact's satiation power and hunger detection power only have a range of the village you're currently in? The kingdom you're currently in?

What if, instead of directly satiating someone, it creates actual food in front of them with an equivalent caloric/nutritional value?

slaydemons
2011-03-18, 01:03 AM
I would use say the 44 charges I would use three because then I am still feeding people and I am gaining more charges until I got 55 charges then I start with 4 per day you get where I am going with this right

Xuincherguixe
2011-03-18, 01:14 AM
Emptying one charge on a person isn't going to alleviate much hunger.

You my friend need to educate the people on matters of crop rotation and how to effectively hedge risk with proper use of corn futures...

Err. Wait... scratch the second one.


Buy meals for the hungriest of the hungry. At some point you probably are going to work on the economy though.

Amnestic
2011-03-18, 03:24 AM
Scenario 1) Use minimal charges per day such that they steadily increase still while still satiating others. Eventually I'll have enough to feed the world, but before that I can rest easy knowing I'm helping some people along the way. It's arguable that those lost charges used along the way would delay that eventuality, true, but overall I think my best path would be to feed as many as I can while still progressing to the end goal.

2) No difference, except I'll reach the desired charges "target" sooner, and it means my Paladin mount is going to be getting a lot more exercise.

3) No difference again. Sucks that they have to spend time eating it, but thems the breaks.

ffone
2011-03-18, 03:54 AM
Save all the charges until you have as many as you would use per day even if it were unlimited. Need / wealth / the-alleviation-of-suffering has Present Value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Present_value) but I imagine its discount rate is much shallower than 10% per day.

With the right social connections the paladin can probably prevent the starvation of those who would've been saved by the 'early' uses of the ring, by telling rich people that he'll repay them at high interest if they feed the poor today. He can then use his awesome ring to generate that wealth: charge some of those who can afford it for the satiation, charging maybe 1/2 of what their actual food would cost; as time goes on food prices will plummet from the ring usage itself, but he can still make lots of money.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-18, 04:30 AM
Feed those who are without by the basic plan implemented by Slaydemons, and engage in a Teach Them How to Fish program through crop rotation, pest control, irrigation, fertilization with compost and manures, and better storage and preservation, creating enough food for all while having the horn as backup in case of famine.

TheCoelacanth
2011-03-18, 10:52 AM
Don't use any charges until after building up enough to feed everyone in the world forever without depleting it. Thanks to the exponential growth this should only take about 9 months.

Vonotar
2011-03-18, 11:16 AM
Steadily build up charges until I can feed everyone everywhere. Kill everyone so that I reach my goal faster.

Razgriez
2011-03-18, 11:22 AM
As being a Deity related to Harvest, and crops. I'm pretty sure Patience is a major virtue for followers of the goddess in question. If that means, that they have to wait a day or two to make sure they aren't the last people to receive the Artifacts blessings, then that's something they'll have to live with.

Harvest don't always go the way you want, even in today's age of technology and machinery. And that means sometimes having to make due with limited bounty of crops if the weather was bad, or pest or disease that destroys crops have spread across the land.

If that means you have to stretch out your Artifacts power reserves to make sure others also gain it's benefits, then they will have to live with that.

Who knows, maybe another year, after another bad harvest, the same family may need it's powers again.

Don't forget, as a Paladin, while charity is a major aspect of your character, a good point of Charity, is also helping to teach those in needs to also become self-sufficient. You don't need to do all the work. No deity of good, is going to require a holy knight of their faith to know many different crafts or professions. But getting the party's ranger to provide some hunting and tracking tips for catching game to help supplement those crops, is useful.

Basically, it's following the old heritage, give someone some food or money, they'll be ok for a day. Teach them how to make money, or make/grow/hunt/catch those foods, and they'll be good for life.

LibraryOgre
2011-03-18, 11:27 AM
While the "build forever" scenarios are great, I've got an odder consideration:

When did you get this artifact? If you got it in spring, I would DEFINITELY follow the "let it build until it can be used indiscriminately" rule. I'd spend the spring, summer and fall, however, teaching everyone about things they can eat now. Charges would be expended only to meet an immediate, drastic need that cannot be met by normal feeding or, perhaps, cagily... if there were someone who wished to experience this artifact, without actual need, I might charge them a large amount for the experience... and invest the money back into feeding the hungry.

Once winter came, I'd use the device more freely, as food is harder to find, and hunger more deadly.

Callista
2011-03-18, 02:49 PM
Yeah, the potential to help later if you wait is infinite; the potential to help now is limited. It's like the marshmallow experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment). And what's more rewarding to a paladin than feeding hungry people? But if we're talking about your basic Lawful paladin, he'll wait. They're not generally impulsive like that.

I don't think the season matters because, long-term, there's always next winter to worry about.

LibraryOgre
2011-03-18, 03:56 PM
I don't think the season matters because, long-term, there's always next winter to worry about.

The season matters because, if it's spring, there's food now. In abundance. There's animals coming out of hibernation. There's spring succulents, early crops and young fruits. Using the magic now, except in extreme circumstances, is somewhat wasted.

If you start in winter, however, you have a more acute need of food. It's harder to get, more in need (since keeping oneself warm burns calories) and going outside is a more dangerous proposition. In that case, I'd be inclined to "feed" a few people each day, and have them search for more mundane sources of food, rather than spend large amounts of magic.

As others have pointed out, not using the cornucopia for a while will eventually fill it to a point where it can be used more or less indiscriminately. 40->44->48->52->57->62->68->74... in a week, you go from 40 to 74 charges if you don't use it. Another week? 139. One more? 267. (Even more, since I started from 40, instead of the 50 specified) If you wait out a good chunk of the year (the 9 months above), you'll be able to feed large amounts of people, all the time. Patience will lead to greater rewards for everyone.

Jothki
2011-03-18, 04:12 PM
It's pretty much your basic cook your seeds/plant your seeds deal.

Elric VIII
2011-03-19, 03:52 AM
What if you got a Cleric of your diety to Plane Shift you somewhere that time flows very rapidly and you allowed the charges to accumulate there. That would minimize everyone's suffering. Just find a Planar Shepherd handbook to find the best plane for this.

Runestar
2011-03-19, 04:19 AM
Hmm...1.1 to the power of 365 (1 year) would give 1.3 x 10^16!

This would allow you to feed 1,000,000,000,000,000 people every day! (maybe a bit less, because I didn't factor in the rounding down part). How many people are there in your world? So after a year, you would basically have solved the world's famine issues? :smalleek:

Rhuadin
2011-03-19, 12:43 PM
Yep, after one year you could feed one quadrillion people. So being able to wait a year will solve all of the world's hunger problems.

And Razgriez makes a very good point about a goddess of fertility being patient, since part of her domain is about crops growing. Callista makes as good point that lawful paladins are good at planning.

I'm sorry I didn't specify a time of year, because I feel like it does matter since it only takes about 9 months of waiting to feed the world (let's say that the population of the world is equivalent to the real world). So, the artifact magically appears in your possession on December 1st. Although I suppose that means for the other half of the world, summer is just beginning :)

I really like Elric's answer. I'm glad there's someone to remind me that there's always an answer outside of the box.

I kind of want to make the scenario a bit less easy to wait through now.

Bonus Scenario 3:
Let's say that the artifact starts off with 10000 charges. The 'interest rate' is 1.5% and the horn only recharges once every Monday. If I did the math correctly, it should take around 15 years to amass 1 billion charges. For those of you whom are waiting without expending any charges, is it still worth the wait?

WarKitty
2011-03-19, 01:10 PM
Oddball thought:

In the first scenario, I'd go find all the people with mouth/throat/digestive issues that would ordinarily be fatal due to inability to eat, and feed them with the artifact.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-19, 01:32 PM
Using it to feed everyone ever may not be the best idea. One, you just destroyed the entire food economy. Sure, they are fed, but now these people don't have jobs. Even medieval farmers needed occasional outside resources. Two, artefacts can be destroyed and certainly stolen. Are you, as a single person, able to handle that responsibility? You are a Paladin, not a god. Imagine if after say, 20 years of feeding everyone everywhere with this Artefact and it gets stolen. Some clever thief or a TPK while on some other quest, or raid by forces of evil on your headquarters. The entire food production infrastructure is by now kaput. At most you have the farm equivalent of micro-breweries for the gourmet, not nearly enough feed the world.
Personally, I would use it in times of famine and shortage and to help those without, but using it to feed everyone everywhere is too darn risky in my opinion.

Gnoman
2011-03-19, 01:51 PM
How much time does it take to expend a charge? How much knowledge of the target? There's a big difference between "I want to feed all the starving children of the world" and "I want to feed little Susie Cobbler, becuase her father's to sick to make shoes. I want to feed Billy beggar because his father's too healthy to beg. I want to feed..."

TurtleKing
2011-03-19, 07:15 PM
Ravens_Cry has only hinted at the negative consequences this artifact can cause. If you do wait in either scenario till you can feed everyone on the planet each day you would have taken away one of the main population control methods that exists. *puts on Flak Vest* If you look at the Real World you will notice that the planet can only sustain so many people. Famine, Disease, and War are some the big population control methods that exist. Famine is one of the reasons that nations go to war. So you also reduce that population control method for a time. Without Famine the global population will increase. With a greater population comes a greater urbanization. Greater urbanization in turn results in less land being used for harvesting. So in time the world becomes one big city. The forests are gone as well the creatures that inhabit them. The oceans are also dead for the same reason. The toxic waste produced will be high unless technology has been invented to recycle it all. That brings up the point of few new products being made from all the rest being used in the process to this point. With everyone now living in one big city spanning the entire world the diseases become even more pandemic from the overcrowding. The reason todays diseases are becoming more pandemic today because of being able to affect more people. War as not been gotten rid of either has people now try to acquire a larger place for themselves among the shrinking land that is left. War now looks like giant "gangs" vying for supremacy.

Even if you manage to take some of the population to another planet then you incure a few scenarios. The first one is whether the artifact's power extends to the new world as well. If it does then the same will happen their as well. If not then that world is back to the way things used to be.

So frankly that artifact can cause more harm than good on the grand scale when you look at the big picture.

Edit: Just thought of a few things. If the satiating of the populace was magical where they didn't have to eat it then what happens to the digestive organs? The digestive organs start at the mouth and go all the way down to the rectum. If the process works in that way will mouth become no longer necessary? The mouth which includes the teeth and tongue among others is also used for speech. The point here is the digestive organs have many uses other than just digesting food. If any are wondering about the source of my knowledge I used to be a Medical Lab Technician. In that profession I was taught about the bodies chemistry consisting of the digestive systems and blood. I was also taught about the diseases from bacteria, viruses, parasites, and fungi. So I do have some knowledge in regards to the biological workings of the human body.

akragster
2011-03-19, 11:08 PM
Use the artifact to summon food, then sell the food at major discount price. Use the money you got from selling the food to buy food for the poor. This way, middle and upper class get cheaper food, and lower class get free food.

begooler
2011-03-20, 01:29 AM
Seek out experts in sociology, logistics, economics and ethics and have them advise on the most effective way to use the item to help the most people.
The paladin can then feel confident that his decision was the best one he could make.
Even if the solution that the 'experts' helped him come up with turned out to not be ideal, the paladin still knows that he took all the information he could into account to arrive at the best decision possible- as far as he knew, at least.

Mewtarthio
2011-03-20, 02:31 AM
I can't believe nobody's pointed out the obvious downside:

You worship the Goddess of the Harvest. How happy is she going to be when you make her portfolio obsolete?

TurtleKing
2011-03-20, 03:46 AM
@Mewtarthio: I actually hinted at that with less land being used for harvesting. Begooler's plan is the best course of action. My earlier post was not a 'do not use', but a 'this is what can happen'.

Rhuadin happened to mention in his OP 'dangerously malnourished'. What if the artifact only works on the malnourished? To be malnourished is to most likely of not eaten for days. Most people would avoid that situation unless they are forced to. If that is the case then the impact on the world would be significantly less. The most use the artifact would get is part of disaster relief or aiding an area suffering from famine.

Callista
2011-03-20, 06:47 AM
That's true; you would actually have to know where the person was in order to feed them. So you would be able to barely keep people alive, but no more than that. Most likely the effect would be that nobody would actually die of hunger--but you can become pretty uncomfortable before that happens.

Kris Strife
2011-03-20, 06:58 AM
That's true; you would actually have to know where the person was in order to feed them. So you would be able to barely keep people alive, but no more than that. Most likely the effect would be that nobody would actually die of hunger--but you can become pretty uncomfortable before that happens.

http://www.superstupor.com/sust12292008.gif

stainboy
2011-03-20, 03:30 PM
A spell trigger item can be used once per round, so it can feed 14,400 people per day if the line moves fast. I'll wait however long it takes to generate that many charges per day, and devote that time to building the most impregnable fortress-city in the world, with the cornucopia at the center.

I'll need other people to guard and operate my fortress city, so now I need an uncorruptable totalitarian theocracy.

...

...

Ah, screw it, sell the cornucopia and start my career as a blackguard. (Item price is a function of current charges, right?)

Zaranthan
2011-03-20, 04:02 PM
My paladin is going to wait the 15 years for the charges to go all exponential. In the meantime, I'll wander the world searching for large concentrations of hungry individuals (indicating a famine region that requires the aid of a powerful agent of the goddess of the harvest).

The detection only reveals those who are "dangerously malnourished," so the food industry isn't going anywhere. Nobody's dying of hunger, but neither does anyone want to go around nearly starving to death every day, hoping that the unseen force that sustains them just above the brink of starvation doesn't falter. This is one of the few infinite production hypotheticals that's actually limited enough to prevent the economic collapse ending that everyone on the internet is so fond of.

Shadowleaf
2011-03-20, 04:18 PM
My paladin is going to wait the 15 years for the charges to go all exponential. In the meantime, I'll wander the world searching for large concentrations of hungry individuals (indicating a famine region that requires the aid of a powerful agent of the goddess of the harvest).

The detection only reveals those who are "dangerously malnourished," so the food industry isn't going anywhere. Nobody's dying of hunger, but neither does anyone want to go around nearly starving to death every day, hoping that the unseen force that sustains them just above the brink of starvation doesn't falter. This is one of the few infinite production hypotheticals that's actually limited enough to prevent the economic collapse ending that everyone on the internet is so fond of.After one year, it can provide for one quadrillion people. After 15 years.. That's 4.21649162 × 10^226.

Amphetryon
2011-03-21, 12:40 PM
December 1st: Is that in the Northern Hemisphere, where winter is closing in at that time, or the Southern Hemisphere, where it's nearly summer?

Jallorn
2011-03-21, 12:45 PM
Don't use it at all or risk plunging the world into a new, potentially far more chaotic, economic system. First the farmers are out of work, but without the need to feed themselves, meaning they can attempt to better their position in the world. Other lower classes are in a similar situation, they don't need to spend all of their time working for food, and can raise their position. This leads to too many middle class workers and insufficient demand, which leads to the rich getting richer, and everyone else getting much much poorer.

Plus if anything ever happened to the horn, the word would be plunged into a devastating famine.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-21, 12:53 PM
After one year, it can provide for one quadrillion people. After 15 years.. That's 4.21649162 × 10^226.
Holy <expletitive redacted/> on <expletive redacted/> that is a lot of people.

ClockShock
2011-03-21, 12:53 PM
Assumptions:
- Starting with forty charges
- No external resources to the concu-thing
- Human life is above value

Go find forty nearby people that are in need of feeding. Feed them. It's not your job to pick and choose who should benefit (present or future).
Thank the bestower of the gift for providing you with the means to do good.

As those above suggest, if you start playing about with (readily available) resources to alleviate the hunger in the very first instance, you will easily reach a point where you can end world hunger (and introduce a whole load of other questions)
But the kind of defeats the dilema, does it not?

Jothki
2011-03-21, 03:04 PM
Assumptions:
- Starting with forty charges
- No external resources to the concu-thing
- Human life is above value

Go find forty nearby people that are in need of feeding. Feed them. It's not your job to pick and choose who should benefit (present or future).
Thank the bestower of the gift for providing you with the means to do good.

As those above suggest, if you start playing about with (readily available) resources to alleviate the hunger in the very first instance, you will easily reach a point where you can end world hunger (and introduce a whole load of other questions)
But the kind of defeats the dilema, does it not?

And then you resign from Paladinhood, since you clearly don't believe that you're capable of properly wielding power.

Callista
2011-03-21, 05:11 PM
I agree. If you're not willing to take on responsibility, then you're not suited to be a paladin. I don't know that it has alignment implications beyond true neutral tendencies; but refusing to take on responsibility for others and refusing to make decisions when it's needed is quite simply a refusal to follow the paladin's code. I mean, why'd the character accept the call to begin with, if he was just going to sit on the sidelines? It's one thing to realize you don't have the wisdom to make the decision by yourself and consequently to ask advice from others; it's quite another to wash your hands of the whole business just because you're being asked to make a difficult choice.

There's one way to stop being a paladin which isn't often seen: The character can simply decide not to be one anymore. And that's what this kind of decision would imply. It's not that some characters wouldn't do this; but they wouldn't be the kind of character who stays LG over the long term.

LibraryOgre
2011-03-21, 06:54 PM
I can't believe nobody's pointed out the obvious downside:

You worship the Goddess of the Harvest. How happy is she going to be when you make her portfolio obsolete?

I thought about that, but I have a counter thought: At some point along the way, she goes being the "goddess of the harvest" and being "the goddess who provides all the food." I don't think she'll hurt for worshipers, especially if the relic can be set for such discriminating behavior as "whoever on this plane prays to Harvestia at least once a day gets fully fed."

stainboy
2011-03-21, 07:09 PM
I don't know, the idea that your goddess commands you to sacrifice her to feed the world is just too awesome.

The saddest man in the multiverse keeps an eternal vigil on the Astral Plane, on the crown of a giant stone head with flowers in her hair. Coolest Planescape random encounter ever.

navar100
2011-03-21, 07:54 PM
Regardless of the Cornucopia, a paladin has to get over himself with one simple fact: he cannot save everyone everywhere immediately and forever. No matter where he is and what he's doing, someone he doesn't know in some location he never heard of for some reason he hasn't a clue as to why is suffering. If he paralyzes himself with grief over that, then he's useless. All a paladin can and is required to do is do what he can where he is or can travel to with the information he has or could obtain. Back to the Cornucopia: Saving charges to increase the amount for later use leaves no onus whatsoever of guilt, shame, blame, or what have you that someone somewhere somewhy is hungry and will not be fed.

ClockShock
2011-03-21, 08:05 PM
I agree. If you're not willing to take on responsibility, then you're not suited to be a paladin. I don't know that it has alignment implications beyond true neutral tendencies; but refusing to take on responsibility for others and refusing to make decisions when it's needed is quite simply a refusal to follow the paladin's code. I mean, why'd the character accept the call to begin with, if he was just going to sit on the sidelines?

snip


Interesting. I like it if said Paladin then puts himself in a position where he has to defend the artifact from the greedy in order to aid the future.

However, my point was to strip away the idea of having other resources available to cover the short amount of time you would need to build up a sizable 'buffer' required for mass feeding.
At this point you have more of a conflict. Help the needy now, or more of the needy later.
You can still take on the responsibility on deciding who 'needy' is - if you care - but your real choice is how much you're willing to refuse aid to the starving peasants that die around you - in favour of those who may be dying later.

On another note - the perceived apathy goes both ways:
"it's not my job to decide who's life is worth more, so it's reasonable to let a few die now so i can save a greater number later"

Xuincherguixe
2011-03-21, 08:12 PM
You know, this thread has convinced me. From now on I'll be adding Knowledge(Economics) as a Class Skill to Paladins.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-21, 08:20 PM
How much does it sell for?

If it sells for even a paltry 100 gold, that's 1,000 meals that will sustain commoners for a day. No waiting, and you pass the dilemma to someone else.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-21, 09:14 PM
How much does it sell for?

If it sells for even a paltry 100 gold, that's 1,000 meals that will sustain commoners for a day. No waiting, and you pass the dilemma to someone else.
If it's really a famine, you will probably have to pay significantly more. Gold can't buy food that doesn't exist. Also, passing the buck isn't exactly the paladin way.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-21, 10:23 PM
I grant that in a place where food is hard to come by, it might cost more, but these are adventurers, food doesn't need to be purchased locally, and someone was already discussing plane shift earlier in the thread. Unless the entire world has a food shortage, there's a place people can get food at average price, and furthermore, if you're going to talk about scarcity affecting prices, there's probably going to be a place where food is in abundance and can be purchased for less than usual. Why can't it be reached by the commoners? 'Cause they're malnourished and the Adventurers are healthy and may have dozens of transportation modes available to them (If they're unlucky, they might even have a feat or two that help them survive without food). Besides, even at 200% markup, that's 500 good meals.

And if passing the buck isn't the "Paladin Way," I want every good Paladin that has encouraged someone else to start doing good things to fall, immediately. That's just passing the buck, too. :smalltongue:

Edit: Come to think of it, in a famine, an item like this cornucopia would also sell for more than usual, so I guess it kinda balances out either way.

Amnestic
2011-03-21, 10:54 PM
How much does it sell for?

If it sells for even a paltry 100 gold, that's 1,000 meals that will sustain commoners for a day. No waiting, and you pass the dilemma to someone else.

Paladins are Paladins because they're the ones who choose to deal with those dilemmas. You pass it off to someone else like that, you're not a very good Paladin.

Encouraging others to do good isn't "passing the buck". You're still doing good yourself. If you weren't, you'd not be a Paladin o.O

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-21, 11:14 PM
Paladins are Paladins because they take class levels in the Paladin class. (Alternatively, they are Paladins because they're Crusaders, Wizards, or Clerics imitating such a class but just calling themselves Paladins, but that's just semantics.) I am very curious what game you're playing where "Must deal with all dilemmas without passing the buck" is a requirement of Paladins. Does a Wizard that suddenly deals with a dilemma suddenly become a Gestalt Wizard/Paladin, or does he or she just lose all Wizard levels and becomes a Paladin until an Atonement is made?

I'm still doing good when I'm "Passing the buck" to someone else because I'm going to use the money I obtained- in a legal way, mind you- to feed a thousand people who need fed. Let me get this straight, it sounds like you're telling me it's a bad thing that I sold an item to someone who specializes in buying and selling items and could probably use a means to feed his or her family for a long time (if not sell it to someone who needs such a means) so that I can feed a whole lotta people. Hey, would you look at that? Now, when Vow of Poverty people take their share of the treasure, sell it, and donate the profits to charity, that's a bad thing.

SiuiS
2011-03-21, 11:19 PM
Using a single charge fulfills all of a persons immediate caloric and nutritive needs.
The artifact alerts you to those in danger of dying of starvation.
Your goddess represents harvest, which includes cutting down living things at the end of their prime to feed other living things.
A starving creature, brought back to health, can starve again for another two weeks.

Simple answer; strafe the mental pings to find the most starvingest people, and nourish them. They don't get auto-fed again for another week; since they are auto-nourished and don't have to worry about their bodies rejecting food; they are catapulted to just under the healthy line.

In the mean-time, that guy can either starve again until you notice him, or forage for himself. Anyone in the last 20th percentile of age categories could also be overlooked, as they are to be reaped themselves, soon.
With people faced with a choice (starve forever and yet endure, or get a job to buy food) you may actually enhance the food market. And feeding anyone who ist starving is a waste of resources. You were told to help those in privation, not eliminate the need for consumption. This also solves the "how many charges before you're safe" issue, since only about a quarter of the worlds inhabitants should ever be starving at once.

Callista
2011-03-21, 11:26 PM
Paladins are Paladins because they take class levels in the Paladin class. (Alternatively, they are Paladins because they're Crusaders, Wizards, or Clerics imitating such a class but just calling themselves Paladins, but that's just semantics.) I am very curious what game you're playing where "Must deal with all dilemmas without passing the buck" is a requirement of Paladins.Well, obviously they're paladins because that's their class; but that's out of character. I'm talking in-character, in game, in your character's personality and his backstory. Unless your game world is very, very meta, they don't have an in-world concept of "taking levels". What it is for them is answering a call, taking up a profession, following their beliefs, their deity, or their code of honor. And the paladin's code is something that would logically, in-character, be taken up honestly in such a way as to grant power, only by people who really believed in it. There's a great deal of variety from paladin to paladin; but the most basic definition of a paladin is a holy warrior who is dedicated to furthering the cause of Good and Law. They are not, by their nature, people who refuse to make decisions or get involved. People who tend to refuse to get involved simply aren't the kind of people who become paladins--it's kind of like how, in the real world, people who refuse to do math don't tend to become mathematicians.

One way of dealing with a dilemma is to ask advice from someone, or ask someone else to make the decision (normal for someone who is in a hierarchy, as pallys often are); but that itself is dealing with the dilemma by deciding that you're not capable of handling it and will find someone who is. Paladins are Lawful and that means they like to work in groups and hierarchies of similarly-inclined individuals; and when they can, if they are in over their heads, it is entirely possible that they will call for backup. But just stepping back and letting fate handle things? Uh-uh.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-22, 12:19 AM
I'm talking in-character, in game, in your character's personality and his backstory.
"I have no time to get involved with these commonfolk while evil cults are out there, summoning the twenty-seventh elder evil to consume all that is, was, or ever will be."


[Paladins] are not, by their nature, people who refuse to make decisions or get involved. People who tend to refuse to get involved simply aren't the kind of people who become paladins--it's kind of like how, in the real world, people who refuse to do math don't tend to become mathematicians.
Quoth the D&D 3.5 PHB, "No one ever chooses to be a paladin. Becoming a paladin is answering a call, accepting one’s destiny. No one, no matter how diligent, can become a paladin through practice."
Not choosing for oneself? Following a destiny? Sounds like the kind of person who likes to make choices and get involved in many things would absolutely loathe being a Paladin.

Quoth the D&D 4 PHB, "Paladins are indomitable warriors who’ve pledged their prowess to something greater than themselves. Paladins smite enemies with divine authority, bolster the courage of nearby companions, and radiate as if a beacon of inextinguishable hope."
Doesn't sound like the kind of guy who likes to derail the plot train for a year feeding NPCs because he wants to get involved.


One way of dealing with a dilemma is to ask advice from someone, or ask someone else to make the decision (normal for someone who is in a hierarchy, as pallys often are); but that itself is dealing with the dilemma by deciding that you're not capable of handling it and will find someone who is.
So, exactly, how is it that my selling the item to a person who buys and sells items not finding someone who is capable of handling the dilemma?

I reiterate and clarify: Selling the items that you have, and using the gold gained from the sale to help the needy, is something that Vow of Poverty characters are supposed to do. This act that I'm doing, people take a feat so they can do it and get bonuses for doing it, me, I'm doing it and expecting nothing in return. What is so bad about that?

Callista
2011-03-22, 04:50 AM
Because there's a difference between selling the item to a random merchant and giving it to someone you trust to use it wisely.

Pyrite
2011-03-22, 07:09 AM
So you can use this thing with apparently little work on your part, and you don't even have to be in the same city or region as the starving person?

I guess one important question becomes how many people are starving to death every day in the world.

Of course, my instinct would be to use the thing to give a "second chance" to people, and try to see if I can preserve the charges so that I can give that second chance to as many people as will need it. I would of course refrain from trying to replace food, and take other efforts to prevent and alleviate famines.

And of course, safeguarding this artifact would be far, far more important than using it. Imagine what an evil overlord could do if he removed the need for food from an entire nation's economy, and forced the entire population to rely on his personal, magical whim to sustain them?

If I couldn't come up with a viable plan to ensure that this artifact was kept from falling into the wrong hands at any point in the future I would instead choose end the artifact by using it up, and I would try to keep it's level of charges from growing beyond my ability to use them before this happens.

Amnestic
2011-03-22, 07:35 AM
Not choosing for oneself? Following a destiny? Sounds like the kind of person who likes to make choices and get involved in many things would absolutely loathe being a Paladin.

Nice of you to miss off this bit in the very same paragraph:

"It is possible, however, to fail to recognize one’s own potential, or to deny one’s destiny. Occasionally, one who is called to be a paladin denies that call and pursues some other life instead."

People are born with a Paladin's 'destiny', yes, but they still have to make that choice. Hell, even the "accepting the call" which you yourself quoted implies choice.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-22, 10:05 AM
And if passing the buck isn't the "Paladin Way," I want every good Paladin that has encouraged someone else to start doing good things to fall, immediately. That's just passing the buck, too. :smalltongue:

The difference is obvious. Encouraging someone else to do good does not stop you from doing good. There is but one mystical hunger stopping artefact.

Jothki
2011-03-22, 11:04 AM
It occurs to me that this might be the sort of thing that could keep an entire army fed, regardless of conventional logistics. There are likely plenty of leaders who would kill to get their hands on something like that.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-22, 11:07 AM
It occurs to me that this might be the sort of thing that could keep an entire army fed, regardless of conventional logistics. There are likely plenty of leaders who would kill to get their hands on something like that.
Definitely. Keeping an army fed is an expensive proposition, and I don't just mean money, I mean wealth. And if you have called up the peasent levies, these people aren't working on your farms, meaning you could cause famine in the process.
With this, you could campaign as long as the weather was good enough and with a larger army.

LibraryOgre
2011-03-22, 11:21 AM
Paladins are Paladins because they're the ones who choose to deal with those dilemmas. You pass it off to someone else like that, you're not a very good Paladin.

Encouraging others to do good isn't "passing the buck". You're still doing good yourself. If you weren't, you'd not be a Paladin o.O

I think Ears puts it well. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/12232006/)

bladesyz
2011-03-22, 11:46 AM
Does the item stock food or magically satiates someone? If it's the latter, it's only good for saving lives, while the former can be used as a resource.

Think about it, even if you didn't need food to survive, would you give up eating? An artifact that doesn't create food but magically satiates is only going to be useful to those who are forced to deal with hunger.

Therefore, this artifact makes the PERFECT social welfare. Simply wait for however long it takes for the artifact to gain enough charges, and you could set up a society where nobody needs to starve (like an infinite, free, soup kitchen), but where people still needs to work in order to ENJOY the finer things in life.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-22, 02:39 PM
Because there's a difference between selling the item to a random merchant and giving it to someone you trust to use it wisely.
Neither of which are bad acts. Otherwise, everyone who has ever sold anything to a random merchant becomes evil, and arguably all merchants are evil (I hope a certain Taloon, perhaps also known as Torneko, is listening in right now). I remind you, I'm using the funds from the sale to buy 1,000 meals. That's 960 more meals than if I blew all the charges in one swoop, and 250 days faster than if I just spent 4 charges a day and hope enough people who don't get fed survive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's the best way to handle things in the whole wide world (leave that to jerks like Immanuel Kant), but feeding 1,000 starving mouths certainly isn't a bad thing to do.


"Occasionally, one who is called to be a paladin denies that call and pursues some other life instead."

People are born with a Paladin's 'destiny', yes, but they still have to make that choice. Hell, even the "accepting the call" which you yourself quoted implies choice.
You'll note, then, that the Paladin has to actively refuse the calling while accepting it is a passive choice, which means that people who like to make choices aren't paladins. Given the point was that Paladins, by their nature, aren't the kind to refuse decision-makings or getting involved, I don't see any conflict here.


The difference is obvious. Encouraging someone else to do good does not stop you from doing good. There is but one mystical hunger stopping artefact.
I reiterate, I'm still doing good when I sell the mystical hunger stopping artefact, and unless you're going to tell me that feeding 1,000 hungry mouths is not good, I don't see how I'm being stopped from doing good.

Also, Magic Item Compendium, 155, Cornucopia of the Needful. 160, Everlasting Rations. Same page, Field Provisions Box. Sustaining Spoon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#sustainingSpoon). Ring of Sustenance. Wands of Goodberry. Sure, most of those may not be artefacts in name, but the only thing special about this item is that it has a "Original Design by Goddess of Harvest, Assembled in Ty'wun" sticker on it. I really don't think a "Hands off deity," as described in the Original Post, would care about such details. Mind you, said deity has also given me carte blanche on the matter, and promised that I won't fall no matter what I do. Quick! Where's the nearest tallest cliff!?

Ravens_cry
2011-03-22, 03:03 PM
I reiterate, I'm still doing good when I sell the mystical hunger stopping artefact, and unless you're going to tell me that feeding 1,000 hungry mouths is not good, I don't see how I'm being stopped from doing good.

I am not saying your not doing good feeding 1000 people for one day, or 500 for two days, just that selling something that could easily be misused in the wrong hands and difficult to use in the right hands is rather short sighted.
You may not Fall, but that is not a Paladins only concern. There is even some cases I would say the Paladin should do something that makes them Fall like use the Protection from Good scroll, if it is the only option, for the mind control mitigation so you can stop the BBEG trying to take over the world through mind control spells. Some have mentioned downsides to you using it and others have mentioned the downsides of having someone use it for evil.
Selling it passing the buck not because you are handing the responsibility to someone else whose only qualification is having enough money to purchase it.

Pyrite
2011-03-22, 03:27 PM
I reiterate, I'm still doing good when I sell the mystical hunger stopping artefact, and unless you're going to tell me that feeding 1,000 hungry mouths is not good, I don't see how I'm being stopped from doing good.


By selling this thing, under any circumstances, you are making it much easier for the artifact to fall into the wrong hands and bring about the aforementioned "Hungering Empire" of desperate people kept alive or not on a two week schedule by their malevolent ruler. As such an empire could use the entire population toward military production, and could stage unending sieges, it would be a very serious threat any semblance of peace and harmony in the world.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-22, 04:42 PM
By selling this thing, under any circumstances, you are making it much easier for the artifact to fall into the wrong hands and bring about the aforementioned "Hungering Empire" of desperate people kept alive or not on a two week schedule by their malevolent ruler. As such an empire could use the entire population toward military production, and could stage unending sieges, it would be a very serious threat any semblance of peace and harmony in the world.

Would make an interesting BBEG though. Damn, as if I don't have enough campaign ideas.

grimbold
2011-03-22, 04:51 PM
I would leave the cornucopia to gather charges for 20 years
then there would be several billion charges built up then i could cure hunger :)

Ravens_cry
2011-03-22, 06:13 PM
I would leave the cornucopia to gather charges for 20 years
then there would be several billion charges built up then i could cure hunger :)
Rather a bit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10593724&postcount=29) more actually.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-22, 08:29 PM
I am not saying your not doing good feeding 1000 people for one day, or 500 for two days, just that selling something that could easily be misused in the wrong hands and difficult to use in the right hands is rather short sighted.
So, in other words, you're saying it's quite in-character.

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability.

Really, I'm already selling this guy a Bag of Tricks, a Portable Hole, a +3 Vorpal Sword, 20 Splitting Arrows, and a CN Candle of Invocation. I don't see why the food-giving item is what's raising the danger flag here. The thing's in better hands with someone who can afford to be superstitious about thieves as opposed to an adventuring Paladin who is actively fighting and constantly getting ambushed by the Evil Empire.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-22, 11:04 PM
Paladins are Lawful GOOD, not LAWFUL Good. They fall for ANY Evil act, but only fall for enough Chaotic acts to change their alignment. And even if it was, what does short-sightedness got to do with close-mindedness? Close-mindedness implies a certain stubbornness and resistance to other points of view, short sighted, unless we mean literally, means not looking at the implications of an action, acting without thinking. Lets look at Chaotic acts as defined by SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm)

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility.
Personally, I think the SRD to be a pretty bad source for alignment questions, but if you are going to quote a source, I can quote it back at you.
So much for this question not being about alignment.
The magic items you mention are indeed excellent sources of food that won't affect the world quite as much and some people may very well be better prepared to take on this, quite heavy, responsibility then an adventuring paladin. But selling it to an anybody who can buy it is still reckless and irresponsible.
If this artefact is known to some Evil Dude and said Evil Dude sends an agent to purchase it from you or purchase it from your buyer or a thief expert enough to pry it from your purchasers possession, then, well damn, you just created the Hungering Empire, where famine is only kept at abeyance by the use of the artefact, keeping all conquered by an army that can lay siege as long as they need to and outlast any other armies ability to keep campaigning in eternal subservience.
Way to go Paladin, way to go.

Temotei
2011-03-22, 11:12 PM
This has probably been mentioned, but having someone create a new plane with genesis where time moves infinitely faster than the material plane's time would make the cornucopia effectively have infinite charges.

Alternatively, if infinity isn't allowed, just make the plane's time move at an extremely high rate--high enough so that in one day on your plane, you'll gain enough charges to feed the entire material plane and still have ten or more charges remaining.

begooler
2011-03-23, 12:31 AM
This has probably been mentioned, but having someone create a new plane with genesis where time moves infinitely faster than the material plane's time would make the cornucopia effectively have infinite charges.

Alternatively, if infinity isn't allowed, just make the plane's time move at an extremely high rate--high enough so that in one day on your plane, you'll gain enough charges to feed the entire material plane and still have ten or more charges remaining.

Paladin: "I need you to fix this problem."
Near Epic Level Spellcaster: "Ah, I was going to get around to fixing that world hunger thing, but I was just waiting for a paladin to come by and ask me to do it."

Pyrite
2011-03-23, 04:41 AM
Paladin: "I need you to fix this problem."
Near Epic Level Spellcaster: "Ah, I was going to get around to fixing that world hunger thing, but I was just waiting for a paladin to come by and ask me to do it."

This is a good point. Someone capable of such a task wouldn't need the artifact to stop world hunger, all they'd need would be an incredibly fast-time plane with a couple of permanent unseen servants sewing, tending, and harvesting a crop thousands of times a day, dispensing the grain through a portal to the material plane.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-23, 12:32 PM
Paladins are Lawful GOOD, not LAWFUL Good. They fall for ANY Evil act, but only fall for enough Chaotic acts to change their alignment.
I'm just following what Callista told me, and that's that Paladins are warriors of Good and Law. Wouldn't it follow, then, that in a game such as D&D 3.5, a Paladin would be both Lawful and Good, note the lack of emphasis on either? Was that definition of a Paladin insufficient?


And even if it was, what does short-sightedness got to do with close-mindedness?
Let's see, if I'm short-sighted, I'm not open to the view points of anything outside of my own view. If I'm close-minded, I'm not open to the view of anything outside of short-term. Therefore, if I have a short-term goal I wish to achieve, they are one and the same.

I've yet to be shown how it's perfectly responsible to sell Death Swords and Quantum Singularities to these people, yet it's irresponsible to sell a food-making item to them. So, please, if you're going to say that what I'm doing is irresponsible, please tell everyone else in the world who has ever sold anything, ever, that they are also being irresponsible.


If this artefact is known to some Evil Dude and said Evil Dude sends an agent to purchase it from you or purchase it from your buyer or a thief expert enough to pry it from your purchasers possession, then, well damn, you just created the Hungering Empire, where famine is only kept at abeyance by the use of the artefact, keeping all conquered by an army that can lay siege as long as they need to and outlast any other armies ability to keep campaigning in eternal subservience.
Now hold it, that cuts both ways. If you keep the item and Evil Dude sends an agent to pry it from your possession, then by the same reasoning you've created the Hungering Empire. If you give the item to someone you trust and Evil Dude sends an agent to pry it from their possession, then you've also created the Hungering Empire. Given this reasoning (and considering that most empires last longer than most individuals, Elans excepted), the only way to use the item without dooming the world is to destroy it, and let the people die of starvation so their corpses might provide a few nutrients to the soil for next year's harvest. And certainly, Evil Dude's just going to stand there while there's countless dead bodies there, begging to be turned into the slaving undead.

After all, if everybody's dead, there's no hunger!

Pyrite
2011-03-23, 03:53 PM
Now hold it, that cuts both ways. If you keep the item and Evil Dude sends an agent to pry it from your possession, then by the same reasoning you've created the Hungering Empire. If you give the item to someone you trust and Evil Dude sends an agent to pry it from their possession, then you've also created the Hungering Empire. Given this reasoning (and considering that most empires last longer than most individuals, Elans excepted), the only way to use the item without dooming the world is to destroy it, and let the people die of starvation so their corpses might provide a few nutrients to the soil for next year's harvest. And certainly, Evil Dude's just going to stand there while there's countless dead bodies there, begging to be turned into the slaving undead.

After all, if everybody's dead, there's no hunger!

While narratively, if an evil empire is going to come about it'll come about through any means it needs to, characters are not aware that they live in a story. It's a lot more likely that someone who shouldn't have this thing would hear about it and try to obtain it if it's just up for sale to rich nobles than if it's secretly held by a secret order of paladins somewhere.

begooler
2011-03-24, 12:02 AM
This is a good point. Someone capable of such a task wouldn't need the artifact to stop world hunger, all they'd need would be an incredibly fast-time plane with a couple of permanent unseen servants sewing, tending, and harvesting a crop thousands of times a day, dispensing the grain through a portal to the material plane.

This could be a viable scenario for a campaign if the wizard is out and about making demiplanes for no particular purpose, or for his own ends, and the paladin has to convince him to use his powers for good.
However, the artifact is still mostly irrelevant here.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-24, 01:29 AM
Now hold it, that cuts both ways. If you keep the item and Evil Dude sends an agent to pry it from your possession, then by the same reasoning you've created the Hungering Empire. If you give the item to someone you trust and Evil Dude sends an agent to pry it from their possession, then you've also created the Hungering Empire. Given this reasoning (and considering that most empires last longer than most individuals, Elans excepted), the only way to use the item without dooming the world is to destroy it, and let the people die of starvation so their corpses might provide a few nutrients to the soil for next year's harvest. And certainly, Evil Dude's just going to stand there while there's countless dead bodies there, begging to be turned into the slaving undead.

After all, if everybody's dead, there's no hunger!

It was handed to you, it is your responsibility. If it gets stolen from, well, you can work to recover it, but you didn't try to pass it of the responsibility to someone else by selling it. The consequences of using it and the consequences of not using and the consequences of someone unwise or malicious using it make me think that no god or goddess of the harvest would make such an artefact, but it was in fact some trickster deity posing as such.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-24, 02:46 PM
While narratively, if an evil empire is going to come about it'll come about through any means it needs to, characters are not aware that they live in a story. It's a lot more likely that someone who shouldn't have this thing would hear about it and try to obtain it if it's just up for sale to rich nobles than if it's secretly held by a secret order of paladins somewhere.
I have to disagree here. See, if it's being secretly held by a secret order of Paladins, then... It's not going to be used, period, and effectively doesn't exist. If anybody uses it to provide free food to starving anybody, it's going to be just as easy to find as going to the bazaar, finding the one merchant who has it, and finding that one magic item among many. Here's how you do it:

Find someone who is starving.
Watch starving person go into building.
Watch starving person exit building significantly more comfortable than when said person entered.
Listen to starving person tell his friends that there's a great place that's giving away free food and they don't have to eat rocks any more. (As everyone else barely has enough energy to moan in agony, this'll be pretty easy to do even if you skip the previous steps.)
Set something on fire.
(I don't know this step.)
Profit.


And I can't help but think that you're only assuming the worst-case scenario for my end, here. Keep in mind that the merchant could just as easily decide it to be a long-term investment, and keep it for himself. After a year of waiting, he's got, what, 1.3 x 10^16 charges? In terms of meals, that's worth 1.3 x 10^15 gold. And, unlike you, he'll also be able to sell that to non-starving locales, such as restaurants (Mind you, the purpose is to alleviate hunger. Rich people get hungry, too, except when they don't). If he sells even a tenth of this stuff at that price, he's still got 1.3^14 gold pieces. He's got enough to retire. And start a tavern at the center of the earth. And still have enough money to donate to the cause of building a Paper Submarine. And he can still make more food. Alternatively, he could just as easily just use it to feed his own family, and avoid paying the "tax" he pays every day to put food on the table to feed his stinky stupid crying hungry snot-nosed kids. Or maybe he actually sells it to the good king? Merchants are capable of doing good things, too, you know! (http://dragonquest.wikia.com/wiki/Torneko_Taloon)


It was handed to you, it is your responsibility. If it gets stolen from, well, you can work to recover it, but you didn't try to pass it of the responsibility to someone else by selling it.
If you can work to recover it, I can work to recover it, as well. Then sell it for 100 gold again, and buy 1,000 meals again.:smallbiggrin: Responsibility has nothing to do with it, in fact, that hall pass from falling pretty much says I don't need to worry about responsibility.


The consequences of using it and the consequences of not using and the consequences of someone unwise or malicious using it make me think that no god or goddess of the harvest would make such an artefact, but it was in fact some trickster deity posing as such.
Naaah, clearly, it's just a broader plan that's so wide that our mere mortal eyes cannot see it.:smalltongue:

Ravens_cry
2011-03-24, 03:42 PM
If you can work to recover it, I can work to recover it, as well. Then sell it for 100 gold again, and buy 1,000 meals again.:smallbiggrin:

You can't but food that doesn't exist. Medieval farming is fairly low efficiency, especially compared to modern techniques. Even in areas that aren't affected by the famine, the influx of refugees is going to drive up food prices or make it simply not available for sale as there is little surplus. People take care of their own first.
The next person you sell it to could be an agent of the overlord who wants the Hungering Empire. Or it could be stolen from the one who bought it or evem purchased legitimately from them. This has al been mentioned before. You are Paladin. you are not omniscient, you are hardly expected to know if it gets stolen from your purchaser. Even if they come running back to you, which they won't if they are such an agent, you can only do this so many times before anyone with the money to purchase this item will wise up and see that there might be a little scam going on here. You sell it, it gets stolen, quite a pattern eh? Soon, no one wants to buy it from you for the gold to buy food that does not exist.

Responsibility has nothing to do with it, in fact, that hall pass from falling pretty much says I don't need to worry about responsibility.
*facepalm* Shut up about Falling. Paladins shouldn't care if they Fall, they care about doing what is Right.

Callista
2011-03-24, 10:54 PM
*facepalm* Shut up about Falling. Paladins shouldn't care if they Fall, they care about doing what is Right.Yes. In fact, the possibility of falling is probably reassuring to many paladins; if they ever lose their dedication, they are not going to be able to use their powers for evil. I've seen Good-aligned characters in a world where the enemy was using mind control buy Contingency'd spells that were set to go off if they ever got their alignment flipped or committed an evil act, usually in a way that took them out of commission (petrification, finger of death, that kind of thing). The beauty of it is that Contingency goes off immediately, so that the character is safe from doing anything horrible due to, say, the Helm of Opposite Alignment that the bad guys had been forcing onto his head--though he does now have to be rescued or resurrected by his buddies, and possibly have his mind set back to the original configuration. It's a little like a magical just-in-case cyanide pill, only less permanent.

The deadly variation of it is problematic because the character's soul, now Evil-aligned, may not want to return; but petrification, etc., is reversible without the character's permission. Personally I plan to use this kind of thing as a plot hook some day--powerful Good-aligned NPC has been mindraped into being Evil-aligned, which triggered a contingency that killed him... now his evil-aligned soul is in an evil afterlife, and the PCs have to go in, subdue him, fish him out manually, and get his mind straightened out, because in his Evil state he's been brainwashed to the point that he refuses all Resurrection spells...

Rhuadin
2011-03-25, 12:13 AM
Wow, this is an incredibly fascinating deconstruction of the scenario!

Oracle, remember that you don't need line of sight to activate the artifact, so people don't need to be wandering into this sketchy mystery hut to receive satiation.

Maybe this hands off Harvest deity should've built in some sort of failsafe into the artifact, in case it falls into the wrong hands! Oh well, too late now :D

The "Hungering Empire" is a really sweet idea for a campaign setting. I am going to totally steal that for one of my nations. Wow, it's so... devious!

I also like the idea of using the horn as a solution to army food logistics. Think of all the good a Paladin could do if he had an army at his disposal, always at the ready due to not needing to eat.

Another_Poet
2011-03-25, 12:59 AM
@Rhuadin: I work in nonprofit fundraising and this is basically the model of an endowment.

An endowment is a fund where you spend the interest, but never more than that. That way the principal stays in the bank and never shrinks, and you keep getting interest to spend every year.

The ironic thing is that many charities literally do use the exact model you describe to feed hungry people. Any endowment for a charity with an anti-hunger program is doing what your paladin is supposed to do with his magic item :)

The reason I explain this is because there is already an established best practice for using endowments. Reinvest a portion of the interest and spend the rest of the interest. This is what slaydemons described in the very first response to you; by this method, the principal keeps growing and eventually the available number of charges grows as well.

So in other words, real-life hunger charities have already solved this problem and developed a best practice. If you spend down the principal you are reckless and irresponsible. Feeding a few people today does not offset feeding millions of people in the long term. Wasting the charges is a violation of the trust of your donors (or in your example, the trust of your deity) and is the mark of a poorly run charity (a bad paladin).

On the other hand by properly stewarding the endowment (or magic item) you ensure maximum long-term benefit and leverage the limited capital (charges) into the most possible good.

I really love your post because it's a cool hypothetical and a rare chance for me to apply my nonprofit management skills to D&D :)

Ravens_cry
2011-03-25, 02:02 AM
Well, there is some differances. For one thing, an endowment won't potentially destroy an entire industry and leave everyone people absolutely dependent on it.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-25, 03:14 PM
You can't but food that doesn't exist. Medieval farming is fairly low efficiency, especially compared to modern techniques. Even in areas that aren't affected by the famine, the influx of refugees is going to drive up food prices or make it simply not available for sale as there is little surplus. People take care of their own first.
I'll reiterate the point that all that just means that the cornucopia is going to sell for even more than expected. Given that I'm selling something to produce an unlimited amount of food and buying a limited amount of food, whatever I'm selling is going to be greater than whatever I'm buying. It is safe to assume the food exists, because the alternative is that the entire world is in famine. In which case, it matters little whose hands the item ends up in, because even an Evil empire is doing the Right thing using it.


The next person you sell it to could be an agent of the overlord who wants the Hungering Empire. Or it could be stolen from the one who bought it or evem purchased legitimately from them. This has al been mentioned before.
The person you trust could be an agent of the overlord who wants the Hungering Empire. Or it could be stolen from the person you gave it to, whom you trust. Or it could be legitimately purchased from that person. It matters not. If you assume I'm responsible for the actions of other people (yet somehow, the thing that gave me the item is not responsible for anything at all), then any outcome is equally wrong, because any outcome can go wrong.

I don't know much about Star Trek, but even I know that when Han Solo trusted Lando Calrissian with his Sonic Screwdriver, he ended up gunned down by Cylons at the next Stargate. Just 'cause you trust someone, doesn't mean it's gonna go right.


Even if they come running back to you, which they won't if they are such an agent, you can only do this so many times before anyone with the money to purchase this item will wise up and see that there might be a little scam going on here. You sell it, it gets stolen, quite a pattern eh? Soon, no one wants to buy it from you for the gold to buy food that does not exist.
Zone of Truth is a Cleric and a Paladin 2 spell. I'm telling no lies, I got nothing to fear, this scam can be proven false. Trivially.


*facepalm* Shut up about Falling. Paladins shouldn't care if they Fall, they care about doing what is Right.
Look, I don't want to put words in your mouth. I know as much as the next guy over that silence is not an agreement. But when you say my actions are irresponsible, and I point out that this makes selling any item ever irresponsible, it is very, very difficult to come to any other conclusion that you agree that selling anything is irresponsible when you don't say anything back. And that's, really, the only thing you've given me to go off of as to why this act is not Right. Because I sell items.

If that's truly where you want to go with this, I will reiterate the point that that's what Vow of Poverty guys do, and they seem to know what's right for the sake of being righty-right right right right. Furthermore, because, in 3.5 D&D, a Paladin will not knowingly associate with an evil person, it also means that I can't buy anything, either. But that sounds like a really strange place to take discussion, even to me.


Yes. In fact, the possibility of falling is probably reassuring to many paladins; if they ever lose their dedication, they are not going to be able to use their powers for evil. I've seen Good-aligned characters in a world where the enemy was using mind control buy Contingency'd spells that were set to go off if they ever got their alignment flipped or committed an evil act, usually in a way that took them out of commission (petrification, finger of death, that kind of thing).
Put that snack back, Jack.

Earlier in the topic, you were talking to me about how characters should have no concept of taking levels... But you are fine with characters having the concept of changing alignment?


Oracle, remember that you don't need line of sight to activate the artifact, so people don't need to be wandering into this sketchy mystery hut to receive satiation.
Hm... I see what you mean. That said, though, it'd probably be just as well off in either case. Guarded by a secret order of paladins means there's more than one person who can decide to doom the world. (And while I'm certain people would say that a paladin would certainly never do that, I will remind you that everyone apparently wants to play worst-case-scenario-only-ball with me.)

Ravens_cry
2011-03-25, 03:49 PM
I'll reiterate the point that all that just means that the cornucopia is going to sell for even more than expected. Given that I'm selling something to produce an unlimited amount of food and buying a limited amount of food, whatever I'm selling is going to be greater than whatever I'm buying. It is safe to assume the food exists, because the alternative is that the entire world is in famine. In which case, it matters little whose hands the item ends up in, because even an Evil empire is doing the Right thing using it.

Gold is worthless, no matter how much, if no one is willing to sell because it would mean starvation on their part.
Here's the pattern. There is a famine, people flee because there is no food. However, other areas also have limited food, because they not only need enough to feed an indigenous population, but enough to plant enough food for next year. There simply isn't enough to feed the influx of refugees. If they are fed, the famine 'spreads' because there simply isn't enough food now to feed both and people start fleeing. Rinse, lather repeat. Depending on level, you may not have acsess, certainly not personally, to go looking literally on other worlds or continents for someone to sell it to, and even if you do, that's nothing compared to the evil possible by it's use in the wrong hands.


Look, I don't want to put words in your mouth. I know as much as the next guy over that silence is not an agreement. But when you say my actions are irresponsible, and I point out that this makes selling any item ever irresponsible, it is very, very difficult to come to any other conclusion that you agree that selling anything is irresponsible when you don't say anything back. And that's, really, the only thing you've given me to go off of as to why this act is not Right. Because I sell items.

It's not right because you are forgoing the responsibility given you and the intrinsic dangers of it falling into the wrong hands. Of the items I remember you mentioning, the Candle of Invocation is widely regarded as yes, a very broken item, that ,yes, would be dangerous in the wrong hands. The amount the others can feed means they won't create a hungering empire. This is an empire of enslavement with no hope of rebellion as any rebellion can be quashed by simply shutting down the item for that area. And they would be able to conquer much of the world given otherwise equal tech as an army marches on its stomach. Keeping an army in the feild is expensive in food. But with this, food doesn't matter. To quote Orwell, "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever. "
That is why selling this item, this item, is wrong. If it falls in the wrong hands, you basically doomed the world to enslavement, and you all to likely will not not be able to do anything about it until it is too late.Even if you can buy enough food to feed 1000 people for a day, that good, and it is a good, is overshadowed by the horror of the potential evil.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-26, 06:24 PM
Gold is worthless, no matter how much, if no one is willing to sell because it would mean starvation on their part.
If no one is willing to sell, then there is no one for the Empire to rule. Everyone has their price, and I have a very interesting item that will sell for a very ludicrous sum given the situations you're throwing at me.


There simply isn't enough to feed the influx of refugees. If they are fed, the famine 'spreads' because there simply isn't enough food now to feed both and people start fleeing.
Regardless of "spreading" the "famine," feeding the people would be the right thing to do, so even an Evil Empire would be doing the Right thing. It is not a bad thing that people can't rebel against the people who are feeding them when they were just now running away and falling unconscious for a permanent amount of time because someone didn't think to add starving to death to the rules of 3.5 because they had no nourishment. The civilians have no want nor no need to rebel against such a person, and 'twould be quite wrong to go against their wishes.

'Sides, ever hear of Ancient Egypt? One single guy ruling over a bunch of slaves? In a place that was subjected to "spontaneous" floods and famines? Arguably the greatest Western Empire until Greece/Rome, depending on your personal preferences? Your hungering empire happened already sans cornucopia, and Historians across time and space are generally agreed that it was a Good thing.


Depending on level, you may not have acsess, certainly not personally, to go looking literally on other worlds or continents for someone to sell it to,
If the nameless NPCs have the means to travel across countries when they are starving, I have the means to travel galaxies.


It's not right because you are forgoing the responsibility given you and the intrinsic dangers of it falling into the wrong hands. Of the items I remember you mentioning, the Candle of Invocation is widely regarded as yes, a very broken item, that ,yes, would be dangerous in the wrong hands.
A quarterstaff is dangerous in the wrong hands. If you're going to tell me it's wrong because it can fall into the wrong hands, then, again, every scenario is also wrong. And in the absence of a right scenario, it only makes sense to do whatever one wants.


That is why selling this item, this item, is wrong. If it falls in the wrong hands, you basically doomed the world to enslavement, and you all to likely will not not be able to do anything about it until it is too late.Even if you can buy enough food to feed 1000 people for a day, that good, and it is a good, is overshadowed by the horror of the potential evil.
If you consider the potential evil of it falling into the wrong hands, then it is only fair to consider the potential good of it falling into the right hands. Good people have hands, too, you know. In which case, both potentials will zero each other out. We're left with the good I did and nothing else.

Nameless Ghost
2011-03-26, 07:20 PM
What strikes me as rather interesting about this whole scenario is that the exact same artifact could be given to the exact same paladin by an evil god.

Once the cornucopia has accumulated enough charges that it will generate more than you can actually expend (with the assumption you can spend a standard action to feed X people anywhere), it would be impossible for it to completely deplete. This fact ensures that numerous catastrophic scenarios will come to pass if the cornucopia is not destroyed, or lost beyond retrieval.

The Hungering Empire scenario is made much, much worse if it does not happen for several hundred years. After that time, society would have built up around the cornucopia and eventually become dependant upon it. Only luxury foods would be produced and will likely only be available to the rich as they become a rarity. The knowledge of farming and harvesting will fade as the generations pass, becoming a remnant of the past.

If after several hundred years the cornucopia suddenly ceased functioning (even if it was not for malevolent purpose), mass starvation would occur (on a global) scale. People would panic, not having ever needed to physically eat for most of their lives as they are magically fed each day.

Nobody would have any idea where to get food from (ask a random person on a real world street where they'd get food from if all the supermarkets and supplies emptied overnight). The list of problems could go on.

If the paladin was capable of such a worldview, they would ensure they used up all of the charges on the cornucopia as soon and effectively as possible. However, it would be rather unlikely that your typical fantasy paladin would see those outcomes and take steps to prevent them immediately.


And consider this amazing idea very stolen. It's a hell of a plot to spring on unsuspecting players, either if they're given the artifact itself or in a campaign set in the cornucopia society as it becomes the Hungering Empire.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-27, 06:58 PM
Speaking of interesting thoughts about the scenario, if I end up using this to feed an Illithid, could that count as satiating it to the point that it's too full to eat someone's brains or else its stomach will explode? :smallbiggrin:

"Prepare yourself, human, for I shall feast on your-"
"Hippopotamus."
*FWUMP*
"... You didn't happen to bring a doggie bag with you, did you?"

Callista
2011-03-27, 08:13 PM
That'd be a great idea--it would allow obligate cannibals like the illithid to survive without killing sentient beings. (Cannibalism, here, meaning "eating things with INT 3 or higher".)

But you guys make a good point--Saving people who are seriously hungry is one thing; letting them become dependent on an artifact is a different story. I don't think you have to go to the extreme of destroying the thing in order to avoid dependence, though.

ffone
2011-03-28, 09:19 PM
A better title for this thread would be

"Alignment scenario unrelated to Paladin"

Seriously - the OP post has nothing to do with paladinhood. The title gives the impression it's about non-alignment aspects of a paladin (like class features). Whereas alignment could certainly have an impact on how a PC would handle the situation (they might choose to charge for the food, etc.)

And insofar as the OP post is related to paladinhood, it is only through alignment - i.e. how a paladin would handle this situation based on his mores; the paladin's alignment might affect his approach, but nothing else about paladinhood would (Divine Grace? heavy armor proficiency?) The title is about as diametrically wrong as possible.

invinible
2011-03-29, 12:58 PM
I would console all the gods of life, the dead, the undead, death, and rebirth to insure that I was using the item for best overall purpose without throwing things out of balance or risking running out of charges.

Rhuadin
2011-03-31, 12:33 AM
A better title for this thread would be

"Alignment scenario unrelated to Paladin"

Seriously - the OP post has nothing to do with paladinhood. The title gives the impression it's about non-alignment aspects of a paladin (like class features). Whereas alignment could certainly have an impact on how a PC would handle the situation (they might choose to charge for the food, etc.)

And insofar as the OP post is related to paladinhood, it is only through alignment - i.e. how a paladin would handle this situation based on his mores; the paladin's alignment might affect his approach, but nothing else about paladinhood would (Divine Grace? heavy armor proficiency?) The title is about as diametrically wrong as possible.

Huh, that's a good point. I originally meant 'unrelated to alignment' to mean 'nothing you can do can change your alignment with your Goddess,' thus removing the issue I see most commonly associated with paladins, which is falling. Of course I chose the paladin as the paragon of good and law. :)