[3.5] Building a Tank

[Sacrieur]

So I was wondering, what's the best way to build a tank in D&D? Assume core races only.

I was thinking Knight/Abjurant Champion/Spellsword (human, for the multiclassing). Is this good? Or am I out of the loop on something cool?

Knight has d12 HD and encouraged ability to wear armor (and can make poeple attack him). To me this seems like a nobrainer. Abjurant Champion is an obvious choice as well. And Spellsword to tie the two together (mmm heavy armor + spells).

All have full BAB too.

[VirOath]

Well, the question now is where are the spells coming from? Knight is the only base class for the build so far, and PrCs don't count against multiclassing.

[Sacrieur]

Well, the question now is where are the spells coming from? Knight is the only base class for the build so far, and PrCs don't count against multiclassing.

It would have to be Sorcerer, since knights benefit from high Cha.

[OneCalledBlue]

What about Knight 6/Seul Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 8 or something like that.

One level of Seul qualifies you. You lose only a single BAB.
Seul uses CHA as well.

[VirOath]

Sorc has a better spell list, from the school of thought that Abjurant Champion gives spells per day as well as caster level from BAB, which I bet would be a common view for his group.

Pulling back on Spellsword for Sacred Exorcist would add Turn Undead uses to the build without dipping cleric, letting it power Divine Feats and Devotions. Wouldn't cost any BAB if your group is using fractional saves either for that one level.

[Sacrieur]

What about Knight 6/Seul Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 8 or something like that.

One level of Seul qualifies you. You lose only a single BAB.
Seul uses CHA as well.

Do the Seul's ignore arcane spell failure add together with the Spellsword's? If so ^_^, and does the spell extension work with the Abjurant Champion's? It says it works as the Extend Spell metamagic feat, in which case you couldn't apply both abilities since you're not allowed to apply the same metamagic feat to the same spell. But at the same time, it's not the metamagic feat that you're applying on it (it's a supernatural ability). How does that ruling go down?

If no to both, then the Seul looks dubious. And as far as I know, the Sorcerer gives the most spell slots out of any other base spellcaster, and Abjurant Champion's Arcane Boost which allows you to use spell slots as bonuses to AC, element resistance, weapon damage, saving throws, and attack rolls.


Sorc has a better spell list, from the school of thought that Abjurant Champion gives spells per day as well as caster level from BAB, which I bet would be a common view for his group.

Pulling back on Spellsword for Sacred Exorcist would add Turn Undead uses to the build without dipping cleric, letting it power Divine Feats and Devotions. Wouldn't cost any BAB if your group is using fractional saves either for that one level.

Divine is something I have considered but not looked into. If so you'll have to scrap Abjurant Champion as well since it requires arcane casting. Though I'm sure the Complete Divine or some other book has a good PrC that can match it. On the plus side there is no progression to override armor failure penalties... But I don't know, Abjurant Champion on a d12 knight whose all ready piled into Cha and only has to take very few Sorcerer levels and let the PrC carry him most of the way through it.

[VirOath]

Divine is something I have considered but not looked into. If so you'll have to scrap Abjurant Champion as well since it requires arcane casting. Though I'm sure the Complete Divine or some other book has a good PrC that can match it. On the plus side there is no progression to override armor failure penalties... But I don't know, Abjurant Champion on a d12 knight whose all ready piled into Cha and only has to take very few Sorcerer levels and let the PrC carry him most of the way through it.

Sacred Exorcist is in the Complete Divine, but is one of the few PrCs that any spellcaster can into without multiclassing, even Wizard or Sorc. Just need 10 ranks in knowledge Planes, and 7 Ranks in Knowledge Religion. It will add to Sorc and Wizard casting, as it is "+1 to existing class" in the spells column.

It will allow you to fuel divine feats and domain feats because the PrC itself gives Turn Undead as a class feature at level one. And since it is 3/4 BAB, using fraction BAB you wouldn't lose any more of it for the first and second levels.

In other words, it's a way of getting Turn Undead on an Arcane Caster without hurting casting at all. Hence avoiding the Cleric Dip. That means, taking a level out of Spell Sword and putting it into Sacred Exorcist won't change anything more from the build.

[Sacrieur]

Sacred Exorcist is in the Complete Divine, but is one of the few PrCs that any spellcaster can into without multiclassing, even Wizard or Sorc. Just need 10 ranks in knowledge Planes, and 7 Ranks in Knowledge Religion. It will add to Sorc and Wizard casting, as it is "+1 to existing class" in the spells column.

It will allow you to fuel divine feats and domain feats because the PrC itself gives Turn Undead as a class feature at level one. And since it is 3/4 BAB, using fraction BAB you wouldn't lose any more of it for the first and second levels.

In other words, it's a way of getting Turn Undead on an Arcane Caster without hurting casting at all. Hence avoiding the Cleric Dip. That means, taking a level out of Spell Sword and putting it into Sacred Exorcist won't change anything more from the build.

Ah, I see, yes, some divine feats would be extremely helpful.

[OneCalledBlue]

The Seul ACF decrease does stack with the rest of your reductions.

Just go a one level dip into Seul, dont bother with the second level at all.
You get +6 to the DCs of your spells vs any Dispel attempt as well. Combined with Abjurant Champion's Abjuration spell boosts it makes your Abjuration spells very hard to get rid of and very useful.

Sacred Exorcist is a good idea as well. Turn Undead Divine Meta Magic is always awesome.

Or if you want a more melee style and areally funky build (though not actually one of the best) try:

Gold Dwarf
Knight 5/Battlesmith 2/Seul Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine 2/Gray Guard 2

Cast as Seul 10. CL =16 (BAB) (More if you use fractional BAB, comes to 19 I think)

Weapon: Dwarvencraft Adamantine Warhammer (add whatever magical enhancements)
Armor: Dwarvencraft Mithril Mountain Plate (add whatever magical enhancements), Dwarvencraft Mithril Shield, Heavy Steel (add whatever magical enhancements)

Feats required for build:
Dwarven Armor Proficiency (Mountain Plate)
Battle Caster (Ignore ACF in Medium Armor)
Combat Casting
Shielded Caster (Dont provoke AoO when casting spells in melee)
Iron Will (Can get via Otyug Hole if DM allows)
Endurance
Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
Pure Soul
Divine Metamagic
Metamagic Feat
Heavy Armor Optimization
Greater Heavy Armor Optimization

Extra Turning as many times as possible with any feats you have left (which may not be many/any).

[Cespenar]

Crusader is a pretty good tank as its own, just to point out a different path.

[OneCalledBlue]

Actually Crusader 5 would be better than Knight 5 except that you couldn't sleep in your Mountain Plate anymore without penalty. lol.

Plus the better Shield Proficiencies of Crusader means you could upgrade to an Extreme Steel Shield.

And you would have some Maneuvers. :smallbiggrin:

[Sacrieur]

Actually Crusader 5 would be better than Knight 5 except that you couldn't sleep in your Mountain Plate anymore without penalty. lol.

Plus the better Shield Proficiencies of Crusader means you could upgrade to an Extreme Steel Shield.

And you would have some Maneuvers. :smallbiggrin:

Or do both? d12 HD and make foes attack you.

[Hazzardevil]

You asked earlier if the 2 extend abilities on suel and abjurant champ. They do.
To be honest I recomend Samurai and Ronin rather than Knight.

[Heliomance]

Artificer with the Landlord feat, abusing Wondrous Architecture on a very small mobile stronghold.

What?

[VirOath]

To be honest I recomend Samurai and Ronin rather than Knight.
What? Reasoning please.

[Gnaeus]

So I was wondering, what's the best way to build a tank in D&D? Assume core races only.

I was thinking Knight/Abjurant Champion/Spellsword (human, for the multiclassing). Is this good? Or am I out of the loop on something cool?

Knight has d12 HD and encouraged ability to wear armor (and can make poeple attack him). To me this seems like a nobrainer. Abjurant Champion is an obvious choice as well. And Spellsword to tie the two together (mmm heavy armor + spells).

All have full BAB too.

Best way to build a tank in D&D? Druid 20. Followed closely by Cleric 20 (or actually, Cleric 5/full casting PRCs 15).

Druid 20 has only +15 bab, but more than makes up for it with an absurdly high strength, and a pet which is also approximately as good a tank as a Knight (assuming something like a T Rex sharing buffs with a high level druid).

Cleric 20 also has a +20 BaB (persist divine power).

The best way to get things to attack you is NOT Knight's Challenge. It is to be so brutally awesome that intelligent enemies know that if they don't take you out, they will die. That is best achieved with 9th level spells.

[VirOath]

Actually, just spells will do. 9th level spells are often better for world breaking before combat, 8th level and lower spells metamagicked up are often a better bang for your buck.

9ths tend to be overrated for their in the moment usefulness. They are excessively powerful and should be desired by any full caster, giving them up is giving up a huge chuck of power in the class and some things a wizard can do can only be done with 9th level. But that level of spell isn't what quakes the battlefield during the fight, most of them that actually are useful in the moment tend to be a hell of a lot more subtle in reality. Timestop is a good example of this.

[dextercorvia]

Sacred Exorcist also requires the ability to cast Dispel Evil, or Dismissal, which means that a Sorcerer has to burn his only 5th level spell known at 10th casting level to get in.

How much Knight/Spellsword are you intending to take? More than a level or two of each, and you are quickly going to be losing higher level spells.

Test of Mettle doesn't hit until 4th level, which will cause you to lose 9th level spells for sure -- more depending on how much Spellsword you take. The DC scales according to knight level, which means it will be useless almost as soon as you stop taking knight levels.

[Keld Denar]

If you use NaenHoon Illumian as your Suel Arcanamach base, then Turn Undead (via Paladin4 prior to SA, or SacEx1 after SA) will allow you to persist up to 2 spells per day for 12 TU attempts. Persist Greater Mirror Image and Wraith Strike for maximal kickassery.

I'm playing a Paladin4/Duskblade2/Suel1/AbjChamp3 right now in an Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Pretty solid!

[Sacrieur]

Sacred Exorcist also requires the ability to cast Dispel Evil, or Dismissal, which means that a Sorcerer has to burn his only 5th level spell known at 10th casting level to get in.

How much Knight/Spellsword are you intending to take? More than a level or two of each, and you are quickly going to be losing higher level spells.

Test of Mettle doesn't hit until 4th level, which will cause you to lose 9th level spells for sure -- more depending on how much Spellsword you take. The DC scales according to knight level, which means it will be useless almost as soon as you stop taking knight levels.

Quite a bit, the negating of arcane spell failure for some really nifty full plate armor is what I'm aiming for, and it does help push through spellcasting.

[dextercorvia]

So, to negate Mithril Fullplate, you'll need Spellsword 9. (Or are you using other enchantments/materials to help?) You mentioned Test of Mettle, so I'll assume Knight4 (even though, I think this is a bad idea).

Knight4/Sorcerer2/AbjurantChampion5/Spellsword9 has BAB of 19, therefore caster level 19, but can only cast 6th level spells.

Is something like that what you were looking for?

[OneCalledBlue]

Mithril Heavy Armor counts as medium. So one instance of Battle Caster negates the ACF entirely.

[dextercorvia]

Mithril Heavy Armor counts as medium. So one instance of Battle Caster negates the ACF entirely.

Only if you are starting with something that can already cast in light armor without ASF.

[OneCalledBlue]

Only if you are starting with something that can already cast in light armor without ASF.

I'll have to find it, but one of the books gives a 3.5 version that allows a 10% reduction to count for the light armor requirement. So once you hit that first level of spellsword you can take it. Given that a 15% reduction would negate just about all light armor ACFs anyway most DMs would be fine even with the CoA version.

Failing that just take 1 level of Warmage instead then.

[dextercorvia]

I'll have to find it, but one of the books gives a 3.5 version that allows a 10% reduction to count for the light armor requirement. So once you hit that first level of spellsword you can take it. Given that a 15% reduction would negate just about all light armor ACFs anyway most DMs would be fine even with the CoA version.

Failing that just take 1 level of Warmage instead then.

If you find the other version let me know. Warmage, etc. have abilities that let you cast their class spells without ASF in light or whatever armor. That doesn't let you cast Wizard or Sorcerer spells in said armor, nor would Battle Caster step up their nonexistent allowance.

The only way I know to do it is to dip a level of Spellthief and take Master Spellthief. Considering that he seems worried about both BAB and Casting levels, and this loses him one of both, I wouldn't recommend it.

[OneCalledBlue]

But you just take one level of Warmage, which gives you no ACF in light armor, take the battle caster feat which ups that to no ACF in medium armor. Mithril Mountain Plate counts as medium armor, so you can now ignore the ACF.
As it is masterwork (Dwarvencraft) it even allows +1 dex bonus still. lol.

Then you progress your casting using prestige classes and still do just fine and dandy. There are ways around spell list restrictions. But as a gish warmage has a lot of the stuff he needs anyway.

I'd go the Crusader 5/Battlesmith 2/Warmage 1 route, skip Spellsword entirely and just go right for Abjurant champion 5 and on to Sacred Excorcist 7 to be honest. Run about in heavy armor with almost no restrictions, slapping things to death with a warhammer of doom and casting a bunch of spells without restriction with divine metamagic boosts. Would be a nice solid gish indeed.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana) gains proficiency with light armor, the ability to cast in it, d8 HD, and medium BAB in exchange for a spell known and per day at every level.

Oh wait, I forgot to make my TAAAAANK joke. I'd say half-ogre war hulk..

[dextercorvia]

But you just take one level of Warmage, which gives you no ACF in light armor, take the battle caster feat which ups that to no ACF in medium armor. Mithril Mountain Plate counts as medium armor, so you can now ignore the ACF.
As it is masterwork (Dwarvencraft) it even allows +1 dex bonus still. lol.

Then you progress your casting using prestige classes and still do just fine and dandy. There are ways around spell list restrictions. But as a gish warmage has a lot of the stuff he needs anyway.

I'd go the Crusader 5/Battlesmith 2/Warmage 1 route, skip Spellsword entirely and just go right for Abjurant champion 5 and on to Sacred Excorcist 7 to be honest. Run about in heavy armor with almost no restrictions, slapping things to death with a warhammer of doom and casting a bunch of spells without restriction with divine metamagic boosts. Would be a nice solid gish indeed.

Warmage makes an awful gish. He has very few of the basic protective spells, horrible buffing spells. All he can do is blast -- which should not be the point of a gish.

PS (Divine metamagic only works on divine spells)

[herrhauptmann]

The Seul ACF decrease does stack with the rest of your reductions.

Just go a one level dip into Seul, dont bother with the second level at all.
You get +6 to the DCs of your spells vs any Dispel attempt as well. Combined with Abjurant Champion's Abjuration spell boosts it makes your Abjuration spells very hard to get rid of and very useful.

Sacred Exorcist is a good idea as well. Turn Undead Divine Meta Magic is always awesome.

Or if you want a more melee style and areally funky build (though not actually one of the best) try:

Gold Dwarf
Knight 5/Battlesmith 2/Seul Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine 2/Gray Guard 2

Cast as Seul 10. CL =16 (BAB) (More if you use fractional BAB, comes to 19 I think)

Weapon: Dwarvencraft Adamantine Warhammer (add whatever magical enhancements)
Armor: Dwarvencraft Mithril Mountain Plate (add whatever magical enhancements), Dwarvencraft Mithril Shield, Heavy Steel (add whatever magical enhancements)

Feats required for build:
Dwarven Armor Proficiency (Mountain Plate)
Battle Caster (Ignore ACF in Medium Armor)
Combat Casting
Shielded Caster (Dont provoke AoO when casting spells in melee)
Iron Will (Can get via Otyug Hole if DM allows)
Endurance
Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
Pure Soul
Divine Metamagic
Metamagic Feat
Heavy Armor Optimization
Greater Heavy Armor Optimization

Extra Turning as many times as possible with any feats you have left (which may not be many/any).
For general use, I'd suggest against the armor optimizations. They're like weapon focus for defenses. Especially for highpowered games where melee gets invalidated by level 10.
Always been a fan of interlocking plate for my dwarves. Hunker down, unleash a full attack, and your AC goes up. :) Is your dwarf carrying two shields?
Why shielded caster? Is that a prereq? If not, why not just cast defensively? Yes, some people have Mageslayer, but that's why you're a gish. You don't have to cast while in melee, not if you can ensure you're already buffed.
Which book is Purifier of the hallowed in?


Actually Crusader 5 would be better than Knight 5 except that you couldn't sleep in your Mountain Plate anymore without penalty. lol.

Plus the better Shield Proficiencies of Crusader means you could upgrade to an Extreme Steel Shield.

Could just grab a restful armor crystal out of MiC. It's a least crystal too. So just pop it into your MW armor each night when you go to bed.


Only if you are starting with something that can already cast in light armor without ASF.
Fighter with armored mage ACF? Can cast up to 6th level spells with ASF. (If I'm reading it right) All for a one level dip. Since most of these builds aren't going past 6th level casting, it could be a good idea to squeeze that in somewhere.

I'll have to find it, but one of the books gives a 3.5 version that allows a 10% reduction to count for the light armor requirement. So once you hit that first level of spellsword you can take it. Given that a 15% reduction would negate just about all light armor ACFs anyway most DMs would be fine even with the CoA version.

Are you referring to Twilight armor? Or a feat or class feature?


PS (Divine metamagic only works on divine spells)
I just doublechecked it. You'd think so, but even though it has the [Divine] keyword, it doesn't explicitly state you can only augment your divine spells. It just has a cleric for the sample situation, and requires Turn/Rebuke as a prereq. Which you can get as an arcane caster via Sacred Exorcist.

[WinWin]

Take Leadership at 6. Landlord at 9. Make a mobile adamantium stronghold and fit it with a spell turret or three. As you gain levels, reinforce your adamantine walls with orbidium and as many repeated castings of Increase Hardness as you can manage. Then give your 'tank' the ability to fly, burrow or function underwater.

Expensive, but a wizard or artificer can greatly reduce the cost. In addition, the landlord feat will match any expenses made to buff your tank. That includes the extra wealth your cohort should bring to the table.

[herrhauptmann]

Orbidium?
Are you putting science (http://static.funnyjunk.com/gifs/96f3d02d_2852_517f.gif) in our D&D?

[WinWin]

Orbidium?
Are you putting science (http://static.funnyjunk.com/gifs/96f3d02d_2852_517f.gif) in our D&D?

My bad. Obdurium.

[dextercorvia]

Fighter with armored mage ACF? Can cast up to 6th level spells with ASF. (If I'm reading it right) All for a one level dip. Since most of these builds aren't going past 6th level casting, it could be a good idea to squeeze that in somewhere.

The one in CMage? That caps at fighter level or half fighter level.


I just doublechecked it. You'd think so, but even though it has the [Divine] keyword, it doesn't explicitly state you can only augment your divine spells. It just has a cleric for the sample situation, and requires Turn/Rebuke as a prereq. Which you can get as an arcane caster via Sacred Exorcist.

It's right here:


You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to make them more powerful.

[herrhauptmann]

It's right here:

That's fluff man. The description is just fluff, and nothing else. The rules/restrictions/benefits etc are shown in the sections titled Prerequisites, Benefit, Special, and/or Normal.
Yes, common sense would say taht it's for divine spells only. Or for whichever class/PrC is getting you the turning. So a wizard 19/Cleric1 with DMM would only be able to use it for his 1st level cleric spells. But since the build in question is getting turning from Sacred Exorcist, which is advancing arcane casting...

[OneCalledBlue]

Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana) gains proficiency with light armor, the ability to cast in it, d8 HD, and medium BAB in exchange for a spell known and per day at every level.

Oh wait, I forgot to make my TAAAAANK joke. I'd say half-ogre war hulk..

That probably would be better than going Warmage.


PS (Divine metamagic only works on divine spells)

Nope. Just Requires Turn/Rebuke of any sort.


For general use, I'd suggest against the armor optimizations. They're like weapon focus for defenses. Especially for highpowered games where melee gets invalidated by level 10.
Always been a fan of interlocking plate for my dwarves. Hunker down, unleash a full attack, and your AC goes up. :)

I generally agree there actually.




Is your dwarf carrying two shields?
Why shielded caster? Is that a prereq? If not, why not just cast defensively? Yes, some people have Mageslayer, but that's why you're a gish. You don't have to cast while in melee, not if you can ensure you're already buffed.
I've found it helps if you need to cast a spell while your in a tight spot in combat is all. But sure, you could get away without it.



Which book is Purifier of the hallowed in?

Heroes of Horror. Generally a useless prc, but it allows a non-paladin to get into Gray Guard easily.



Could just grab a restful armor crystal out of MiC. It's a least crystal too. So just pop it into your MW armor each night when you go to bed.
Yes I agree. I do this often. lol.



Fighter with armored mage ACF? Can cast up to 6th level spells with ASF. (If I'm reading it right) All for a one level dip. Since most of these builds aren't going past 6th level casting, it could be a good idea to squeeze that in somewhere.
That works also I think. Not sure about the spell level though.



Are you referring to Twilight armor? Or a feat or class feature?

Feat. I find these things and go "ooh that would be shiny for a build later on, but it isnt what I'm after right now so I'll ignore it." and then I totally forget which book it is in or even what it is called. :smallyuk:



It's right here:



You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to make them more powerful.

Thats just fluff dude. It works for either Arcane or Divine spellcasting.

[dextercorvia]

That's fluff man. The description is just fluff, and nothing else. The rules/restrictions/benefits etc are shown in the sections titled Prerequisites, Benefit, Special, and/or Normal.
Yes, common sense would say taht it's for divine spells only. Or for whichever class/PrC is getting you the turning. So a wizard 19/Cleric1 with DMM would only be able to use it for his 1st level cleric spells. But since the build in question is getting turning from Sacred Exorcist, which is advancing arcane casting...


Nope. Just Requires Turn/Rebuke of any sort.

<snip>

Thats just fluff dude. It works for either Arcane or Divine spellcasting.

Maybe that is why they felt the need to issue errata:


Page 80: Divine Metamagic feat
The boldface text needs to be added to the Benefit paragraph of the feat description: When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. . . .

[herrhauptmann]

Ahh, shoulda mentioned an errata at start then.

[Doc Roc]

Take Leadership at 6. Landlord at 9. Make a mobile adamantium stronghold and fit it with a spell turret or three. As you gain levels, reinforce your adamantine walls with orbidium and as many repeated castings of Increase Hardness as you can manage. Then give your 'tank' the ability to fly, burrow or function underwater.

Expensive, but a wizard or artificer can greatly reduce the cost. In addition, the landlord feat will match any expenses made to buff your tank. That includes the extra wealth your cohort should bring to the table.

We are friends now. This is not really optional.

[dextercorvia]

Ahh, shoulda mentioned an errata at start then.

I was going to, since I was fairly sure it was there. The kids were over my shoulder when I checked it the first time, so I missed it. So I double checked.