Are there fixes for the Bloodstorm Blade PrC?

[Firechanter]

The BSB suffers from an all too common disease: cool concept, rotten execution. Common consensus is that the PrC is only good for a 2 to max. 4 level dip (most people say 2, I think not having to drop a Strike and being able to full-attack is worth the 4th level). In the PrC Tier ranking it is listed as "-1", aka "very bad deal".

Let me see if I can sum up what makes this PrC bad:
1. non-initiating. You don't gain martial maneuvers and delay your IL progression.
2. rather worthless abilities on levels 5-9.
3. you can initiate Strikes as Thrown which is good, but are limited to Iron Heart strikes which is not so good. Iron Heart actually has not so many strikes that benefit from making them ranged at all, and most of them are low level.

So, what would be necessary to make the PrC worthwhile? Would it suffice to fix one point, or two, or would it need to be completely re-done?

My take is that first of all, the limitation to Iron Heart strikes has to go. Let me throw Diamond Mind strikes and we're talking!
If the class also was Initiating, using the same progression as the Eternal Blade, I'd be all happy and could live well with the mediocre 5-9 specials, no need to redo them.

What do you think?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

My take is that first of all, the limitation to Iron Heart strikes has to go. Let me throw Diamond Mind strikes and we're talking!
If the class also was Initiating, using the same progression as the Eternal Blade, I'd be all happy and could live well with the mediocre 5-9 specials, no need to redo them.

What do you think?

Adding initiating would obviously be the first step. Expanding the maneuvers usable at range from Iron Heart to any discipline would be a good 5-9 ability; you start learning to throw things with the discipline you know best, then branch out later. That also provides a worthwhile ability after 4th level. Make that at 6th level, say, and add a capstone of some sort and you should be good.

[navar100]

I think the intent for the prestige class is it's not supposed to be taken by a martial adept. It's a prestige class to allow the basic 3E dedicated warrior class (most likely fighter but barbarian too maybe) to get a feel of Tome Of Battle without actually using it heavily and maintain the usual 3E combat system. You get the Iron Heart maneuvers through Martial Study feat but a dip into Warblade works too.

[Firechanter]

I'd say the intent is pretty clearly spelled out in the section "Becoming a BSB" on page 100. Unless they lied in their description, they wanted BSB to be primarily a Warblade PrC, and secondarily an option of other melee classes.

Seeing how lowlevel Warblades eat through their maneuvers, because they have to drop a Strike every time they use Returning Attacks, I find it pretty pointless to use with non-initiating classes.

As for the fix: I like what Pair'o Dice proposes.
The current capstone is a bit weird; in some circumstances it is pretty insane
(I'm standing in the middle of 70.000 lowlevel enemies. In the following 6 seconds, I kill 67.000 of them.), in others it is useless when used as intended (one tough enemy), but can be abused (close your eyes and attack squares rather than enemies).

Any ideas for a better balanced capstone ability, and maybe a new level 8 ability, too?

[Prime32]

You don't need to burn a strike to use Throw Anything, Thunderous Throw (lv2, treat ranged attacks as melee) or Lightning Ricochet (lv4, insta-return). Which are the main draws of the class, really.


Expanding the maneuvers usable at range from Iron Heart to any discipline would be a good 5-9 ability; you start learning to throw things with the discipline you know best, then branch out later. That also provides a worthwhile ability after 4th level. Make that at 6th level, say, and add a capstone of some sort and you should be good.
Thunderous Throw already lets you use whatever maneuvers you want, you just have to spend a swift action to activate it (which you don't for Iron Heart strikes). I'm a fan of delivering Setting Sun throws via hurled greatsword.

You can meet the prereqs with a 1-level warblade dip, and recall that warblades can refresh all their maneuvers as a swift action.


The current capstone is a bit weird; in some circumstances it is pretty insane
(I'm standing in the middle of 70.000 lowlevel enemies. In the following 6 seconds, I kill 67.000 of them.), in others it is useless when used as intended (one tough enemy)I'm confused. An ability which lets you attack multiple targets is intended to be used against one tough enemy? :smallconfused:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

You don't need to burn a strike to use Throw Anything, Thunderous Throw (lv2, treat ranged attacks as melee) or Lightning Ricochet (lv4, insta-return). Which are the main draws of the class, really.

Thunderous Throw already lets you use whatever maneuvers you want, you just have to spend a swift action to activate it (which you don't for Iron Heart strikes). I'm a fan of delivering Setting Sun throws via hurled greatsword.

Agreed, but seeing as the point of this thread is that the OP wants there to be reasons to stay in past level 4, there should be some more "main draws" of the PrC after level 5. And while you can activate maneuvers of any discipline at range using Thunderous Throw, it requires a swift action where Martial Throw does not, so there's still a reason to expand Martial Throw to any discipline as a later-level benefit; people who'd just be using Thunderous Throw anyway can still stop at level 4, and people who want to be able to use, say, Diamond Nightmare Blade at range in conjunction with a boost can do so if they stick around for a level or two.


I'm confused. An ability which lets you attack multiple targets is intended to be used against one tough enemy? :smallconfused:

I believe his point is that most PrC capstones are generally useful in most circumstances (Island in Time, for instance, is as good against an army as it is against a BBEG) but the Bloodstorm Blade's is very good against mooks and rather useless against a boss, relegating the BB to minion cleanup in a boss fight. Toning it down and moving it to 8th, and then making a more generally-useful capstone, would encourage people to go all the way instead of looking at it and saying "Oh, my DM uses a lot of strong, single enemies, the capstone is useless to me."

[Firechanter]

Yes, exactly. Also, sorry for the mixup about Martial- and Thunderous Throw; it's a bit confusing as you get both at 2nd level.

So in short, not having to spend a Swift Action for Thunderous Throw would be nice as well; or having to spend it only once per encounter to activate it. Of course, apart from the Swift Action there is not reason _not_ to use TT all the time.
--

Another idea for a mid-level bonus ability: increase the range increment of your thrown weapon. Presently your base range increment as per Throw Anything is 10', you can increase that with Far Shot and Gloves of Extended Range to 30', and you can argue to increase your base range by 5' with Dancing Blade Form when using Thunderous Throw. Maybe clarify this question, and give the class another +10' range increment.

--
Also yes, you got my thoughts about the capstone. Besides, I think it's bad design if an ability is so much more effective when not used as intended. In this case: close your eyes and attack each of the squares this Ancient Dragon is standing on, giving you 16 attacks, of which 12 are likely to hit if you have Blind-Fight. If that's possibly by exploiting the RAW, why not rewrite the ability to give you more attacks without shenanigans.

So let me see, how about changing this "Blade Storm" to:
As Full-Round action, you can make a number of ranged attacks with a thrown weapon equal to your BB level at your highest attack bonus. You can distribute these attacks any way you wish. Cost: one Iron-Heart Strike.
(Question is, whether to allow using this in conjunction with Thunderous Throw. Also, maybe limit this to once per encounter.)

This is just a first attempt, but at first glance it does three things: it limits the amount of attacks to a more credible level (not 70000 attacks per round); it removes the temptation for blind-fight abuse, and makes the ability universally useful against multiple targets as well as bosses.

[sonofzeal]

I think it works. It isn't exactly what one might hope, but it's also good enough that it still gets used fairly often. It's entirely reasonable overall.

[Firechanter]

I'm probably not terribly imaginative. Is there anything in particular you "might hope for"?

[sonofzeal]

I'm probably not terribly imaginative. Is there anything in particular you "might hope for"?
Well, it's in ToB, so one might expect there to be more ToB-ish content. That's just a matter of juxtaposition though - it stands on its own merits, and doesn't need maneuver progression to compete. It's still good enough at what it does, especially when you start taking advantage of other thrown-weapon options.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Just make it a 5 level PrC, port the capstone to 5th level, and call it a done deal?

[Firechanter]

That would also be a decent deal, yes. Although if the 5-level PrC isnt initiating, it would mean you get only a single 9th-level maneuver.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That would also be a decent deal, yes. Although if the 5-level PrC isnt initiating, it would mean you get only a single 9th-level maneuver.

For being able to pull off the whole Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper combo... at range. Yea, I'd consider that a worthwhile tradeoff.

[Firechanter]

Hmmmm. That would go well with Pouncing Charge. Since that one has Tiger Claw prereqs, might as well take the Leaping Dragon Stance as one, and complement that with Battle Jump.

I can see the coolness in this, in its very brutal way: You can Charge and Full Attack without even getting close to your prey. With a Valorous weapon, the whole combo deals triple-triple damage (triple PA penalty and triple the total). As opposed to a "normal" ubercharger, it's not so easy to foil because you don't even get in striking distance of your target. Pretty awesome.

Even when your Pounce maneuver is expended and not yet refreshed, you can still do a single-attack charge that does more damage than the best standalone warblade maneuver. Hefty.

Edit: aaaah crap, doesn't quite work that way, it seems... Battle Jump will be too situational because you can't use it while Flying. Leap Attack specifically requires you to end your Jump in a square from which you Threaten your target. So unless you find a way around that, we can't quite hack away with impunity if we want max damage.

Anyway, my rough damage predictions for a level 20 character of this build (Str 32, BAB 20, Shock Trooper, Valorous weapon) vs. AC40 are:
Normal Charge: 140
Pounce: 385
normal with Leap Attack: 180
Pounce with Leap Attack: 520
normal with Leap and Battle Jump: 270
Pounce with Leap and Battle Jump: 700

I guess Battle Jump is not worth it for a simple reason: those creatures that have more than 500HP (like Ancient+ Dragons) will be so tall you can't jump above them anyway. Gargantuan for instance is 50ft high, which would require a DC200 High Jump check. Not gonna happen.