"Triple" Gestalt

[Sims]

There is overpowered, and then there is just plain stupid. I heard this group talking about it at lunch today, and decided, to see what would be your guys take on it?

Even at level 5, a Wizard/Fighter/Rogue is a one man army.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd try it, but more out of curiosity than anything else.

It seems a bit too complex of character builds for most purposes.

[Chess435]

I was thinking about starting a game involving this:

Starting with blatantly overpowered 20th level triple gestalt characters.

Optimize said characters to make them even more ridiculous

Give them 10x WBL in starting equipment.

Destroy the world and then proceed to get even more beyond the impossible (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeyondTheImpossible) from there.



Would anyone be interested in playing or DM'ing such a game?

[Mordokai]

Playing, yes.

DMing, hellz no.

[Tyndmyr]

Playing, yes.

DMing, hellz no.

This.

Be aware that my character would be a god among casters, especially if you allowed PrCing on both sides. I figure at least six 9s. Some may call this broken. I call it a good start.

[Chess435]

DMing, hellz no.

I didn't think so..... :smallamused:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

3-man Party

Wizard // Factotum // Warblade
Archivist // Factotum // Warblade
Spell-to-Power Erudite // Factotum // Warblade

Arcane powers? Check. Divine powers? Check. Psionics? Check. Skills? In spades. Combat ability? Incredible. Breaks the action economy? Check. Single-ability dependent? Almost entirely.

Game over.

[Miscast_Mage]

In terms of PO, it'd be difficult to find a mix of classes that has both synergy and preferably one active side to two passive sides(it doesn't matter how sides gestalt has, you've still gotta obey the action economy unless you have some factotum in there). A decent build off the top of my head would be: Wizard//factotum//barbarian. Wizard, for obvious reasons, factotum to break the action economy, and barbarian for the high hit dice, fort save and random class goodies.

Edit: Curse you, you delicious ninja beverage, you!

[Chess435]

Be aware that my character would be a god among casters, especially if you allowed PrCing on both sides. I figure at least six 9s. Some may call this broken. I call it a good start.

Exactly what I was thinking. Just imagine what you could do simply by abusing dual-progression PrC's!


Edit: Ha! My first time swordsaging someone!

[Sims]

Hahaha! Prestige Classes XD Mystic Theurge anyone? The characters would be godly at level 10.

[Illven]

Playing, yes.

DMing, hellz no.


This.

Be aware that my character would be a god among casters, especially if you allowed PrCing on both sides. I figure at least six 9s. Some may call this broken. I call it a good start.

QFT few people would dm this headache.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, in normal gestalt, I can wring some pretty epic casting out. Figure, three at level 9s or higher, and a fourth quite close.

If it's gestalt with PrCs on both sides, looking at more like five nines.

So, with triple gestalt, Factotum is the logical thing to add. The big flaw is I actually start running short on accelerated casting classes and dual casting classes to take. I'll have to resort to tricks like legacy champion to continue to advance 10 level theurge classes.

Yeah, it'd be pretty horrific to DM.

[Jair Barik]

Isn't there a rule in gestalt that dual progress PrC's aren't allowed? Or is that rule generally just ignored.

[Tyndmyr]

Isn't there a rule in gestalt that dual progress PrC's aren't allowed? Or is that rule generally just ignored.

It's a reccomendation.

Oddly enough, it's not even a terribly good one. See, theurge classes give you tons of options, but the really, really lethal gestalt builds are not those that give you lots of options...they're the ones that use synergy to make you amazing with the options you do have.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Isn't there a rule in gestalt that dual progress PrC's aren't allowed? Or is that rule generally just ignored.

That rule is, as far as I'm aware, usually in use for Gestalt games.

[FMArthur]

I can think of a great triple gestalt right now...

Mystic Wildshape Trapfinding SotAO Ranger / ??? / ???

Oh wait. :smallconfused:

[John Cribati]

Three words: Barbarian|Wizard|Rogue.

[Asheram]

Wouldn't it be easier to do an ordinary gestalt with the Lightning Warrior?

[dragonsamurai77]

Wouldn't it be easier to do an ordinary gestalt with the Lightning Warrior?

Everyone knows that's a trap. I mean, it doesn't even get a familiar!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Three words: Barbarian|Wizard|Rogue.

The Wizard // Factotum // Warblade I suggested earlier would beat the pants off the Barbarian // Wizard // Rogue. :smalltongue:

[Jair Barik]

The Wizard // Factotum // Warblade I suggested earlier would beat the pants off the Barbarian // Wizard // Rogue. :smalltongue:

Oh come now! How many barbarians do you know who actually wear any in the first place?:smallamused:

[Hazzardevil]

The first idea off my head was this monstrousity:
Nardemonbinder/Sorcerer/UM//Factorum 1/DFA/Shadow template//Bard 1/Druid 9/Sublime chord 1/Fochulan lyrist 9.

That is the following:
8th level spell from sorc,
8th level spells from nardemonbinder,
All skills as class skills,
Plenty of SLA's usable as much as you want and an infinite use range weapon,
level 10 sublime chord casting,
9th level druid wildshape,
level 18 druid casting.
and the vest part is that is enough for 4 iterative attacks and you need 3 stats for casting with only 13 in all 3 at least.

[Willfor]

If I were running something like this, I would limit it to tier 3 and below in terms of classes. Still very powerful, but it would provide more interesting (in my opinion) combinations.

[grarrrg]

There is overpowered, and then there is just plain stupid.

Going for "just plain stupid"
(without using NPC classes)

Monk//Soulknife//Truenamer

It will have decent Saves.
That is all.

[Murdim]

As was already pointed out by many others before me, here's the ultimate Marty Stu build : Any Int-based full caster 15 / PrC 5 // Warblade 10 / Eternal Blade 10 // Factotum 20.

You're not just the best gish ever. You are the best caster, the best skill monkey, AND the best meatshield ever. Who cares about being restricted to only one spell list when you also have D12 HP, full BAB, all good saves, all skills, Intelligence to everything, a ridiculous physical damage output, and a dozen different ways to make action economy your bitch.

Also, just for fun (and without the only-one-PrC-at-a-time rule) : Lycanthrope LA 2 / Dire bear 12 / Warshaper 5 / War hulk +1 // Barbarian 6 / Frenzied Berserker 4 / Bear warrior 10 // Chaos monk 5 / War hulk 9 / Frenzied Berserker +6.

This is a were-bear who can get so angry he turns into a bear while he's a bear. Total ability bonus : +44 Str, +2 Dex, +12 Con by simply being a werebear, +74 Str, +2 Dex, +20 Con when things get serious. Total number of attacks per turn : 6 to 9 unarmed strikes (2D6, lethal), plus two claws, plus a bite, plus any morphic weapon you might want. It also has reach, and its strikes hit every enemy at range. It can't be killed. It can't be stunned. It is immune to precision damage. It can heal itself. And it power attacks for twice the normal amount of damage.


Wouldn't it be easier to do an ordinary gestalt with the Lightning Warrior?
Forget that. Lightning Warriors can't even specialise.

[navar100]

Gestalt in itself is not overpowered. It is high powered but only "overly" in the sense of one's personal tolerance level for power.

To Gestalt three classes is overkill but not due to power. You can only do so much in a round. Some class abilities are passive and would help buff-like, but to be a class mostly means doing something with it. Some abilities you might never use. You might be overwhelmed with choices. Everyone in the party is for the most part the same. Everyone can do everything. It becomes boring.

However, I do acknowledge the power aspect. It is possible for there to be some combination of stuff that Wins D&D, makes the game Unplayable, or otherwise result in a "why bother playing".

[John Cribati]

This is a were-bear who can get so angry he turns into a bear while he's a bear.

This may be the greatest sentence ever written.

[RaggedAngel]

Going for "just plain stupid"
(without using NPC classes)

Monk//Soulknife//Truenamer

It will have decent Saves.
That is all.

I currently have Fast Healing 20, +5 to Damage and Hit that stacks with everything, energy resistance to the important ones, DR 5/- and DR 10/Magic and +5 to saves, Spell Resistance 30, Immunity to all poisons and diseases, and Improved Evasion. If I had half a brain when assigning ability scores my AC is around 25, and my weapon is a +5 Wounding Collision Bastard Sword.

If I wake up in a dungeon naked, I can be like this in two rounds.

Don't diss my Monk//Soulknife//Truenamers.

[dspeyer]

barbarian for the high hit dice, fort save and random class goodies.

Warblade gets you the same HD and save, and better goodies (especially for an int-based character).

I keep thinking a druid // master of many forms // swordsage would be more fun. So many possibilities. And 10 unassigned levels for miscellaneous goodies.

[Morph Bark]

3-man Party

Wizard // Factotum // Warblade
Archivist // Factotum // Warblade
Spell-to-Power Erudite // Factotum // Warblade

Arcane powers? Check. Divine powers? Check. Psionics? Check. Skills? In spades. Combat ability? Incredible. Breaks the action economy? Check. Single-ability dependent? Almost entirely.

Game over.

Alternatively:

Artificer // Factotum // Warblade
Cleric // Totemist // Swordsage
Druid // Totemist // Swordsage

Some Swordsage levels may also be swapped for Ardent levels.

[Zaydos]

Wizard/Arcane Hierophant//Druid/Master of Many Forms//Warblade/Blackguard/Beastmaster 1

Why? It would be fun and I'd have two pets. I like my pets.

[BayardSPSR]

I'm surprised no one has yet said Cleric//Druid//Wizard... I guess it must be less effective for reasons that don't immediately come to mind for me (not being much of a D&D player myself), but I can't help but imagine that a triple-Tier 1 character would be rather strong.

[DragonOfUndeath]

You wouldn't have enough actions to use it. at low levels you would never run out of slots but at higher levels you get that anyway. Without something to break the action economy massively it won't be much more powerful

[gorfnab]

I can think of a great triple gestalt right now...

Mystic Wildshape Trapfinding SotAO Ranger / ??? / ???

Oh wait. :smallconfused:
Mystic Wildshape Trapfinding SotAO Ranger 10/ Master of Many Forms 10// Swordsage 20// Cloistered Cleric 4/ Prestige Paladin 4/ Cloistered Cleric 12

The Cheerleader
Crusader 20 // Dragon Shaman 20 // Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge (or Paladin of Freedom) 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

Iron Man
Warforged Artificer // Factotum // Warblade

Mr. Creepy
Binder 20// Hexblade 20// Warlock 5/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Eldritch Disciple 8

[Southern Cross]

Here's my ultimate Marty Stu build : Magister 15 / Abjurant Champion 5 // Warblade 10 / Eternal Blade 10 // Factotum 20.

[Cicciograna]

I was thinking about starting a game involving this:

Starting with blatantly overpowered 20th level triple gestalt characters.

Optimize said characters to make them even more ridiculous

Give them 10x WBL in starting equipment.

Destroy the world and then proceed to get even more beyond the impossible (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeyondTheImpossible) from there.



Would anyone be interested in playing or DM'ing such a game?

I'd DM it. I would allow anything the players could pull out from such a game and would make them the rulers of the Multiverse.
For the next campaign I'd pit the PCs against their previous characters, telling them that they've sworn to rid the Multiverse from their menace.
Standard point buy, regular WBL.
Dear players, now hate yourselves.

[JaronK]

Gestalt in itself is not overpowered. It is high powered but only "overly" in the sense of one's personal tolerance level for power.

To Gestalt three classes is overkill but not due to power. You can only do so much in a round.

The Factotum scoffs at your "only so much in a round" nonsense!

I think Archivist//Factotum//Warblade would be absolutely silly. For more action spamming, consider Archivist//Factotum//Binder, with Zceryll so you're spamming creatures that have their own actions too. Yehaw!

As to why Wizard//Druid//Cleric is bad, the stat issues. You want to focus on one stat, so you wouldn't want the Int caster in there. However, Druid//Cleric//Unarmed Swordsage would be solid.

JaronK

[Aricandor]

I'd probably throw my dice in for the Warblade // Wizard // Factotum, possibly PrCed on the former two depending on mood. Probably just a plain ol' IotSFV and Archmage on the Wizard. It feels simple and elegant somehow.

[Volthawk]

Here's my ultimate Marty Stu build : Magister 15 / Abjurant Champion 5 // Warblade 10 / Eternal Blade 10 // Factotum 20.

:smallconfused: Magister? Don't recognise that base class.

[No brains]

Another wall street broker of the action economy is the choker with their quickness!

As for DMing this monstrosity:
"Your mission: Catgirls. Reverse Nazi exterminate the bastard race. Failure is not an option (seriously, HOW can you mess up?)."

[dextercorvia]

Needs more Chameleon+Master Spellthief. Triple Gestalting 3 arcane classes will get me a Chameleon CL of 120 without working hard. If one of the others is Sublime Chord, then it makes my head hurt.

[Ranger Mattos]

3-man Party

Wizard // Factotum // Warblade
Archivist // Factotum // Warblade
Spell-to-Power Erudite // Factotum // Warblade

Arcane powers? Check. Divine powers? Check. Psionics? Check. Skills? In spades. Combat ability? Incredible. Breaks the action economy? Check. Single-ability dependent? Almost entirely.

Game over.

And then the DM gives the party a Headband of Epic Intellect +24 or something. Cue the battle that destroys the world.

[Quietus]

QFT few people would dm this headache.

If I was being ridiculous... I might. Unfortunately, my brand of ridiculous doesn't usually go to this length. However, i'd generally stop checking character's sheets with something like that, and if they said they could do something, I'd probably nod and go "Okay"

Then I'd have a mountain wake up. That's also a wizard. And a dwarf. Oh, and it can trap people in the ground, and is immune to most spells 'cause, construct-ish-immunity-stuff. And it has a chainsaw, which is on fire.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Ultimate squishy caster with more actions per round than most gods: Wizard//Psion//Factotum. PrC to taste.

[dextercorvia]

If I was being ridiculous... I might. Unfortunately, my brand of ridiculous doesn't usually go to this length. However, i'd generally stop checking character's sheets with something like that, and if they said they could do something, I'd probably nod and go "Okay"

Then I'd have a mountain wake up. That's also a wizard. And a dwarf. Oh, and it can trap people in the ground, and is immune to most spells 'cause, construct-ish-immunity-stuff. And it has a chainsaw, which is on fire.

This. This is what you should worry about when the DM says, "I want you guys to have more power than usual. Lets try this variant...."

[HalfDragonCube]

As to why Wizard//Druid//Cleric is bad, the stat issues. You want to focus on one stat, so you wouldn't want the Int caster in there.

Try using the ageing rules.

Although your unadjusted physical scores will all be 2; you mental ability scores will be good. Just hire a few meatshields and buy mules.

I once had an Int 25 Str 1 wizard grey elf wizard (+2 Int to elves houserule).

The embodiment of the 'squishy spellcaster'.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I was going to respond to this by saying Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5//Factotum 20//Warblade 20, but it seems that's mostly been covered. The minor difference here is that you use the wizard side for all-day buffs, and for offense you spam however many maneuvers it takes to kill everything in the first round, using spells only when necessary.

Question: How are LA and RHD handled?

[megabyter5]

Fey Druid 3/Bard 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 5//Sorcerer 4/Bard 16//Wilder 20

Be the master of Charisma.

[OneCalledBlue]

I ran a normal Gestalt PVP game once where when a player slays another player they may "steal" one "side" of the Gestalt and stich it onto themselves. So in the final round the two remaining players had a penta-gestalt. Stolen Gestalt tracks did not advance when they gained levels. So that level 3 Gestal track looked kinda sad by level 15.

I had a lot of class restrictions and it was a low magic game. So the extra gestalts often made a BIG difference until it got to high levels.

[dextercorvia]

As to why Wizard//Druid//Cleric is bad, the stat issues. You want to focus on one stat, so you wouldn't want the Int caster in there.
JaronK

One level of Tainted Scholar.

[Hazzardevil]

wizard\archivist\cleric wouuld actually be pretty wea by itself. Now one broken thing would be rkv with archivist\factorum\erudite. you have plenty of actions for swift actions and .manifesting. what else do you need?
anyway. I would enjoy taking part in thi with something similer to my build.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Here's my contribution. :smallbiggrin:

Warblade 20//druid 20//factotum 20.

Totally overpowered.

[Lateral]

This is a were-bear who can get so angry he turns into a bear while he's a bear.
This may be the greatest sentence ever written.

Sup dawg, I heard you like bears so we put a bear in your bear so you can maul while you maul.

[Godskook]

Alternatively:

Artificer // Factotum // Warblade
Cleric // Totemist // Swordsage
Druid // Totemist // Swordsage

Some Swordsage levels may also be swapped for Ardent levels.

Its kinda sad that it took 28 posts before anyone bothered mentioning meldshapers. Have a cookie for being the first to awesome.

[JKTrickster]

In case anyone's wondering, there's actually a Triple Gestalt game going on right now (and I'm apart of it! :smallbiggrin:)

So if anyone wants to see the crazy stuff we have planned it's starting. :smallwink:

[Acanous]

Propably go Focused Specialist Abjurer 3 Master Specialist 10 Initiate of the 7FV 7 / Factotum 20 / Bard 9 Legendary Leader 3 Heir of Syberis 5 Marshal 3.

My broken action economy comes with an invincible army. Also my Cohort is totally a Lion Totem Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker/Blackguard.
Just to tank enemy saves for me. And deal surprising ammounts of damage.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Dammit, if only there was some way to toss arcane, psionics, divine and factotum onto there.

Wiz/Psi/Cerebremancer//Factotum//Archivist?

[flabort]

Here's a couple tables I made, because I was bored:
{table]|1 PrC at a time / LA+HD as classes|any # of PrCs at once/ LA+HD as classes|1 PrC at a time / LA+HD on all sides as once| any # of PrCs/ LA+HD on all sides at once
Non-gestalt|x1|x1|x1|x1
"double"/standard Gestalt|x1.5|x2|x1.25|x1.75
"triple" gestalt|x2|x3|x1.5|x2.5[/table]
{table]|Dual Progression PrCs|No DPPrCs, Progress + Base|No DPPrCs, No progression w/ base
Non-gestalt|x1|x1|x1
Standard Gestalt|x1.5|x1.25|x1
"Triple" Gestalt|x2|x1.5|x1[/table]

Multiply the character's level by the value in the first table to determine their "effective" level for calculating Xp, or divide the enemy's CR by the same value instead. not both.
If you want to deal with the second table, add the two multipliers from each table, following normal rules for adding multipliers ((x2)+(x2)=(x3)).

By 1 PrC at a time, I mean you can't advance more than one PrC at any given level. And by any # of PrCs, I of course mean you can take a level of three different PrCs, so long as you qualify, on the same level.

By LA+HD as classes, I mean you can put LA and HD in your progression the same way as classes. So, LA 2/class 18//HD 4/class 16. By LA+HD on all sides, I mean that LA affects all sides of the gestalt, and same with racial HD. So, LA 2/HD 4/class 14//LA/HD 4/class 14.

By Dual Progression PrCs, I mean, sure, you can take mystic theurge. Take it at the same time as continuing levels of wizard, if you want. By No DPPrCs, Progress + Base, you can't take mystic theurge, or other dual progression PrCs, but you can take a wizard PrC at the same time as wizard. And by No DPPrCs, no Progression w/ Base, you need to take a different base class with your wizard PrC. By extension, if you can take more than 1 PrC per level, no taking more than one PrC that advances the same class at once.


It's probably best you DON'T use my tables, and that you DON'T use the second table if you use the first anyways.

Also:
Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge10/Archivist 4-10//Wizard 12/Archmage 5/wizard 13-15//psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/psion 4-10

Hey, look at that. Effectively wizard level 40. SAD. Minimum level Archmage entry. And how is it wizard 40? 15 wizard levels (15), 5 archmage (20), 10 Mystic theurge (30), 10 cerebremancer (40). AND it's effectively archivist 20 and psion 20. No Capstones, but meh.
All it's missing is factotum.

[Lateral]

The sad part is, it needs factotum, or else its insane amounts of spells mean very little.

[flabort]

I could replace the last 6 levels of psion with factotum?
Or even a 1 level dip at the very start to cut the psion to effectively 19?

I don't see psion as the strong point in the build, and am OK with sacrificing a level or two.

[Draz74]

Well, Factotum//Psion//Warblade is kind of an obvious one for me. Similar to what a lot of other people are saying, but Psion isn't getting enough love compared to Wizard or Archivist or Artificer or StP Erudite. (Come on people, it's not about breaking the game ... it's about playing a fun class! ... and maybe occasionally breaking the action economy even more than the Factotum already does. :smallwink:)

Then if I want to make a party, the obvious choice seems to be a WIS-focused character and a CHA-focused character. I actually really like the Crusader//Dragon Shaman//Bard + PrCs build that someone else proposed.

For the WIS-fellow ... hmmm. At the moment, I think I'm feeling Scout/Swordsage//Ranger//Chaos Incarnate archer (with Swift Hunter).

[Kuulvheysoon]

Hence my dilemma. You can have triple casting, but without a way to get more actions so that you can actually use the spells/powers, you might as well not have them.

[Popertop]

You wouldn't have enough actions to use it. at low levels you would never run out of slots but at higher levels you get that anyway. Without something to break the action economy massively it won't be much more powerful

I think there are a few feats that let you spend spells to fuel certain abilities, can't remember off the top of my head.


Fey Druid 3/Bard 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 5//Sorcerer 4/Bard 16//Wilder 20

Be the master of Charisma.

Yo dawg I put some Bard in yo Bard so you can sing while you sing.



Sup dawg, I heard you like bears so we put a bear in your bear so you can maul while you maul.

:smallbiggrin:

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I'm so far out of my league here it's not even funny.

[sambo.]

Paladin/Sorcerer/Shadowcaster sprinkled with PrC cheese as desired?

if we're allowing Theurgic classes... noctumancer is going to be interesting.

[Morph Bark]

Its kinda sad that it took 28 posts before anyone bothered mentioning meldshapers. Have a cookie for being the first to awesome.

God knows I love animals in magic soul armour with psychic martial arts powers.

*nyom nom nom* Gracias. :smallbiggrin:

[Aurenthal]

druid/master of many forms//cleric/ardiant server of pelor//monk
will destroy everything with healing power!!! :durkon:

[flabort]

Feat rogue//fighter//generic warrior (The UA class, not the PrC)

..What?

[Strife Warzeal]

Feat rogue//fighter//generic warrior (The UA class, not the PrC)

..What?

What is that, like 50 feats at level 20?

[Lateral]

Feat rogue//fighter//generic warrior (The UA class, not the PrC)

..What?

No, no, no. This is how you pump feats.

Wild Elf Feat Rogue 2/ Fighter 2/ Psychic Warrior 2/ Generic Warrior 2/ Generic Expert 2/ Martial Wizard 1/ Psion 1/ Generic Spellcaster 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1 (with all 3 domains swapped for Devotion feats)/ Monk 2/ Bear Totem Barbarian 3/ Soulknife 1. Make sure you do the Dark Chaos Shuffle.

This takes one side of the triple gestalt and nets you 27 bonus feats- six less than yours, but only eating up one side. You could spread this out over all three sides, take more levels in Generic Warrior, Feat Rogue, and Fighter, and get a lot more, but I'm not going to do the math for that.

Or, you could make the other two sides Factotum 20 and Druid 10/ Planar Shepherd 10. Make a gish of doom or something.


What is that, like 50 feats at level 20?
39, assuming no racial bonus feats; 40 if human or something, 43 using Dark Chaos Shuffle.

[Morph Bark]

*snip*

You forgot Vow of Poverty. :smallwink:

Also, Wild Elf? Not Human or Strongheart Halfling?

[Lateral]

You could do that, I suppose. It wouldn't be too bad, you'd still be essentially a Druid 10/ Planar Shepherd 10//Factotum 20. :smallwink:

Yes, Wild Elf. I mentioned Dark Chaos Shuffle. So... much... cheese. :smallamused:

[valadil]

So this post reminds me of an idea I had a while back. Basically it takes E6 (epic at level 6) but instead of becoming epic at that point, you gain a gestalt and start filling in your second set of levels. When you reach the end of that, you'd add in a third set of gestalt levels.

So assuming G6, a level 6 character would stop advancing his primary class. He'd become

Fighter 6 // Wizard 1.

When the second slot filled up he might go

Fighter 6 // Wizard 6 // Rogue 1.

Etc.

I think this is more interesting than starting with three classes right out of the gate. But it's my idea so I'm biased. What I like about it is that it still progresses whatever the new class abilities are, but the character doesn't grow much beyond that. BAB will never pass 6. But there's still more room for advancement than E6's plain old gain a feat level ups.

The only thing I don't like is that the farther you go with it, the more alike characters will be. Even with 3 classes (which would be analogous to level 18) I don't see a lot of variety in characters. I'd expect most people to take a progression with full casting, another progression with BAB and HP. The third would probably be something for skill points or a different caster. Unless the group planned around each other, I'd expect a ton of overlap here.

[Cog]

It would probably work better if you could fill those new gestalt slots with PrC abilities. Of course, you'd have to vet each PrC to make sure it isn't bringing in abilities too strong for E6's, but there are plenty that don't, and each iteration could allow stronger classes.

[tonberrian]

Beguiler//Wizard/Rainbow Servant/stuff//Factotum.

You have all the options. All of them.

[Metahuman1]

Actually, I'm gonna be playing a variant of this.

It's normal Gestalt Rules for the first too slots, and then the third slot is optional too take, but if you grab it you can only assign lvl adjustment and Racial Hit Dice too it. The idea was the DM wanted a party of none-standard races, with out having to penalize the none standard races.


Now, for a normal triple Gestalt,

Barbarian, Fighter, Scout. Not the most powerful by a long shot, but fun long as no one's going for the uber broken builds.

[Person_Man]

You might just want to come up with a homebrew generic super class instead. It'd probably be a lot simpler then trying to combine and balance 3 different classes.

The Iconoclast

Full BAB, d10 hit die, full weapons and armor proficiency, all strong Saves, 6 Skill points per level, all Skills are class Skills.

The basis of this class is "Pick what's fun, and don't be a jerk about it, because other players want to have fun too."

Over 20 level, you get 23 character points. 4 at first level, and 1 additional point every level thereafter. Each time you gain a level you may reallocate your character points and select new abilities. But you may not put more then 10 points into any one ability, and your DM may ban anything he thinks would be too disruptive to the group. (Polymorph, breaking the action economy, etc). You may spend your character points on any of the following:

1 point:

1d6 Sneak Attack or Skirmish
Bonus Feat that you otherwise qualify for
Any spell, that you may spontaneously cast 3 times per day.
Any psionic power from any list, plus 5 power points.
Any soulmeld plus 1 point of essentia.
Any maneuver or stance.
+10 to all base movement speeds.

You may only select spells/powers/etc of a level that a normal class of that level could take. Thus an Iconoclast 5 could only select 3rd level spells, power, etc. Your caster/whatever level is equal to your character level, and your primary caster stat is whatever you want.

For all other abilities, your DM may assign a point value. 2 points for Evasion, 3 for a chakra bind, 4 for a vestige, or whatever you and your DM thinks is fair. Every ability is on the table, following the same basic guideline that you can't get an ability that a normal class or PrC of that ECL couldn't take, you can always designate your own primary attribute (so you can have Divine Grace based on Int or Wis or Con or whatever), and that your DM can take a ban hammer to anything that unbalances the group (which he should only do if it's seriously broken, given how powerful the Iconoclast will be). On any weird rules point, like essentia capacity or alignment restrictions, use the same rule of thumb of whatever would be reasonable for a class of that level who specialized in that ability.

Or you could just play GURPS. But that might involve having to learn new rules.

[flabort]

This is too good to let die yet! Quickened Extended Maximized Raise Thread!!! Plus corpsecrafter feats.

Evolutionist 20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112349")//Factotum 20//Spontaneous Druid 20

Just because I love Draken's Base class so much.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Marshal 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 3/Divine Oracle 10/Abjurant Champion 5//
Paladin 2/Sha'ir 8/Rainbow Servant 10//
Monk 1/Favored Soul 18/Pious Templar 1

All Charisma, all the time. BAB +16, 9/9/9 spellcasting, near-perfect saves with Divine Grace, Prescient Sense, and Mettle. Ability to cast any Wizard spell or any Cleric spell with sufficient advance notice. Flight as Ex.

On reflection, probably not nearly as cool as a Wizard//Archivist//Factotum, though I like to think the added flexibility and longevity makes up for losing the ability to nova spectacularly.

[Morph Bark]

Marshal 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 3/Divine Oracle 10/Abjurant Champion 5//
Paladin 2/Sha'ir 8/Rainbow Servant 10//
Monk 1/Favored Soul 18/Pious Templar 1

All Charisma, all the time. BAB +16, 9/9/9 spellcasting, near-perfect saves with Divine Grace, Prescient Sense, and Mettle. Ability to cast any Wizard spell or any Cleric spell with sufficient advance notice. Flight as Ex.

On reflection, probably not nearly as cool as a Wizard//Archivist//Factotum, though I like to think the added flexibility and longevity makes up for losing the ability to nova spectacularly.

I think that build is actually less flexible and has more nova capabilities due to having more spell slots. Where do you get Mettle from though?

[Tyndmyr]

Hence my dilemma. You can have triple casting, but without a way to get more actions so that you can actually use the spells/powers, you might as well not have them.

Quicken spell and some metamagic reducer would be there. With five or six casting classes at 9s, I can essentially always have the absolute perfect spells available. Belt of Battle is also a gimmie.

It's quite rare that I can't solve a problem with two or three perfect spells.

[dextercorvia]

I think that build is actually less flexible and has more nova capabilities due to having more spell slots. Where do you get Mettle from though?

Pious Templar grants Mettle at level 1.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I think that build is actually less flexible and has more nova capabilities due to having more spell slots.

Well, the idea is that the Sorcerer and Favored Soul have all the spells you use frequently. The Sha'ir/Rainbow Servant exists to provide any Wizard spell in 1d6 + spell level minutes and any Cleric spell in 1d6 + spell level hours, without relying on item drops. The Marshal dip is intended to ensure that the Sha'ir always makes his Diplomacy checks; I had originally included a Warlock dip for another +6, but figured that was overkill and used Pious Templar for Mettle instead.

Thinking about it, I should have replaced Sorcerer with Warmage and gone Rainbow Warsnake on that side, kept Sha'ir for Wizard/Sorcerer spells, and piled all of my non-spellcasting classes on the third side and filled it out with Dragonfire Adept.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Evolutionist 20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112349")//Factotum 20//Spontaneous Druid 20

Just because I love Draken's Base class so much.

Wow. I'm totally going to have to start tinkering with that now.

[Cadian 9th]

I think I just had a nergasm...


I currently have Fast Healing 20, +5 to Damage and Hit that stacks with everything, energy resistance to the important ones, DR 5/- and DR 10/Magic and +5 to saves, Spell Resistance 30, Immunity to all poisons and diseases, and Improved Evasion. If I had half a brain when assigning ability scores my AC is around 25, and my weapon is a +5 Wounding Collision Bastard Sword.

If I wake up in a dungeon naked, I can be like this in two rounds.

Don't diss my Monk//Soulknife//Truenamers.

Okay, my Ultimate Magus/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theruge/Beguiler/Wizard/Dweomerkeeper/Ruby Knight Vindicator/Archmage/Factotum/Warblade would like to meet you :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, nice work.


I'd DM it. I would allow anything the players could pull out from such a game and would make them the rulers of the Multiverse.
For the next campaign I'd pit the PCs against their previous characters, telling them that they've sworn to rid the Multiverse from their menace.
Standard point buy, regular WBL.
Dear players, now hate yourselves.

Woah, really? You're good to DM it?


Feat rogue//fighter//generic warrior (The UA class, not the PrC)

..What?

Same class feature accures at the rate of the faster class, unfortunately. You need a different bonus feat class feature to stack them...

[Metahuman1]

Bard//Dread Necromancer//Cleric.

I can summon an undead hoard, beef it and myself up to be utter monsters and use bardic music and preform dance to do Thriller at my enemy's till they die!

[Sims]

No one ever Gestalts with Fighter levels. Thats actually a little surprising since this is a Triple Gestalt, so you have less to lose.

8 Levels of Factotum are pretty nifty though.

[ericgrau]

Let's see I'd want decent arcane casting, plus good stats like BAB, AC, HP and damage might be nice. Plus ways to get out of grappling, paralysis, disease, petrification, etc.... Skill-monkeying might be nice but there are plenty of ways around that in most campaigns. Defense is hard without any armor, and most of the fix-its are divine yet low level. I'd have to go dex and range with a way to use divine scrolls.

So... arcane caster / archer / something with UMD. So... sorcerer / fighter / rogue :smalltongue:. Sorc for charisma synergy. Though any similar combo could do. Maybe x/x/bard but as long as I can greater invis myself and have full BAB I might as well grab sneak attack damage.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Wight8/Evolved Undead12
//
StPErudite1/Wizard1/Cleric1/Rogue14/Epichero3
//
Unarmed Swordsage20

Take Epic magic: Erudite, Wizard and Cleric using Swordsage Maneuvers to qualify for Epic magic

I have Arcane, Divine, Psionic and Maneuvers at 9, A bucketload of SLAs, Sneak Attack, Level drain, Natural Weapons at a high damage output and enough Fast Healing to fight till the cows come home.
Replace Wight and undead levels for Factotum and be a regular Swordsage if you need more actions rather than being the Energizer Bunny on Steroids

[SaintRidley]

Looks like someone figured out how they came up with Exalted.


So this post reminds me of an idea I had a while back. Basically it takes E6 (epic at level 6) but instead of becoming epic at that point, you gain a gestalt and start filling in your second set of levels. When you reach the end of that, you'd add in a third set of gestalt levels.

So assuming G6, a level 6 character would stop advancing his primary class. He'd become

Fighter 6 // Wizard 1.

When the second slot filled up he might go

Fighter 6 // Wizard 6 // Rogue 1.

Etc.

I think this is more interesting than starting with three classes right out of the gate. But it's my idea so I'm biased. What I like about it is that it still progresses whatever the new class abilities are, but the character doesn't grow much beyond that. BAB will never pass 6. But there's still more room for advancement than E6's plain old gain a feat level ups.

The only thing I don't like is that the farther you go with it, the more alike characters will be. Even with 3 classes (which would be analogous to level 18) I don't see a lot of variety in characters. I'd expect most people to take a progression with full casting, another progression with BAB and HP. The third would probably be something for skill points or a different caster. Unless the group planned around each other, I'd expect a ton of overlap here.

I'm going to second the idea of using PrC classes as a way to avoid the sameyness issue.

Consider the (not terribly optimal, but good for our purposes example) Fighter 6//Wizard 6//Spellsword 6.

Spellsword levels give him some nifty abilities to synergize his first two progressions as well as a little boost to caster level (I think Spellsword 6 nets +3 caster level, and we're not progressing spell slots past 6 just caster level and level dependent variables) and some bonus feats.

A much better way to avoid the whole sameyness.

[Morph Bark]

Take Epic magic: Erudite, Wizard and Cleric using Swordsage Maneuvers to qualify for Epic magic

Wait, what? How does this work? :smallconfused:

[DragonOfUndeath]

All you need is 5th level spells (or equivalent). It never mentions they have to come from the same class you are upgrading. It reeks of cheese and goes against RAI but it's a RAW application I have seen in High-OP games before.
The build gains 1-9 level maneuvers which qualifies the build to take Epic magic in Psion, Wizard and Cleric.
You can replace Swordsage with Warlock, Druid, any Caster you want, it still works technically.
You now have 4 9s in a Gestalt, the Evolved Wight gives you some nice abilities and immunities for a Triple-Gestalt focused on Gishing and having as many spells as possible.

Actually if you replace Wiz1 with Sorc1 and make Cleric some Spontaneous Caster like Warlock you can be insanely versatile by having so many spells known you literally always have the right tool for the job

[Morph Bark]

You would have to do it with another caster that can get 9th-level spells, as maneuvers don't qualify you for Epic Magic. Besides, you can't take Epic Magic at non-epic levels, unless you are a Dragonwrought Kobold.

[DragonOfUndeath]

I just chose Swordsage cause of the Gish capabilities. Any caster can be substituted into it, so long as it hits 5th level spells on that side of the Gestalt it's perfect.
Paladin could work, as could Druid

Epic Magic from the Epic Hero PrC can be taken at 17th level+ provided you meet prereqs. where are you getting the Dragonwrought-only from?

[Morph Bark]

I just chose Swordsage cause of the Gish capabilities. Any caster can be substituted into it, so long as it hits 5th level spells on that side of the Gestalt it's perfect.
Paladin could work, as could Druid

Epic Magic from the Epic Hero PrC can be taken at 17th level+ provided you meet prereqs. where are you getting the Dragonwrought-only from?

Swordsages don't learn spells though, unless you were to take the Arcane Swordsage variant. Might as well since you are already cheesing out a lot.

I haven't ever heard of Epic Hero before. Is that homebrew? :smallconfused:

Dragonwrought Kobolds have age categories like true dragons, so if they are Old or older, they are allowed to take Epic feats, even at level 1. For as far as I know, the only (technically) legal way to get Epic feats pre-Epic.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Epic Hero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102456)
Look at the Epic Magic section, each level of EH gives one of the abilities, it is usually used on Epic Magic.