Worth losing 1 BAB for spellcasting level?

[jeice]

As the title states, is it worth losing 1 BAB to take one level of a spellcasting class for a martial based character with high INT? Say for instance a Rogue with 15 int could benefit greatly from a wizard or beguiler level. Beguiler is a good fit and would net you things like mage armor and such, along with not losing any class skills. Even would let you swap out trapfinding on Rogue for alternate ability and gain it again with beguiler.

Or even wizard sounds good. With all of the possible variants with wizards you could end up with a bunch of cool stuff. Some really good level 1 wizard buffs and utility spells to start. You can swap out familiar with many different things, including animal companion. You can specialize and then take the other specialization focus variant and get extra spells in the school you want. With scribe scroll you could make a bunch of scrolls like truestrike and shield to hold you over if you ever run out of spells. There is even a variant that gives you a fighter bonus feat. And for the armor issue, one level of fighter that a lot of rogues already take has a variant that allows you to drop heavy armor spec and replace with the armored mage option so your wizard could cast his lvl 1 spells with no penalty.

But it comes down to the question. "Is it worth it?" One BAB versus a lot of utility and possible animal companion, or even the quick jaunt ability that would be extremely handy to a melee character.

[Curmudgeon]

It's a utility computation. If you're hitting 95% of the time, and not gaining 1 BAB in your next level would still have you hitting 95% of the time, it's not going to hurt at all. If you're only hitting 5% of the time, and gaining 1 BAB will have you hitting 10% of the time, you're really going to want that +100% improvement.

The Rogue's usefulness in combat comes primarily from sneak attack damage. But if you don't hit, you don't deal any damage at all. A non-Rogue level will also cost you ½d6 in sneak attack damage. So losing BAB will hurt the Rogue more than almost all other classes.

[MammonAzrael]

Unless you're filling out your 20th level of rogue! :smalltongue:

Really, I think it depends on which spells you're wanting, as utility spells. And the question is, why not just get some Wands? They're cheap.

[Drork]

Touch attack sneak attack with many many wands, is normally awesome. It also means if the BAB starts hurting you there is an out.
How ever the answer to if its worth it or not is does it fit your play style and what you have planned for the build. It can result in a powerful build but a straight rogue will always have a edge (improved uncanny dodge runs off rogue level).
Magic is powerful however if you already do have UMD to cover all your magical needs I personally would say it is not worth it.

[jeice]

I was using Rogues as an example due to their int usually being pretty high, but I guess it would work for anyone. Monks with at least an 11 int could use mage armor which would be sweet. Combined with the truestrike with that flurry variant that gives double damage.

I guess it comes down to what you're willing to lose, to gain whatever it is you want. Until I realized mage armor doesn't stack with regular armor it seemed even better. Still that quick jaunt seems invaluable though from what I understand it's considered a bit cheesy.

[MammonAzrael]

I was using Rogues as an example due to their int usually being pretty high, but I guess it would work for anyone. Monks with at least an 11 int could use mage armor which would be sweet. Combined with the truestrike with that flurry variant that gives double damage.

Ultimately however, most of the time you spend giving yourself minor buffs would be better spent attacking your enemies. And monks, sadly, are one of the least powerful classes you could have chosen as an example. :smalltongue:


I guess it comes down to what you're willing to lose, to gain whatever it is you want. Until I realized mage armor doesn't stack with regular armor it seemed even better. Still that quick jaunt seems invaluable though from what I understand it's considered a bit cheesy.

I'm assuming you mean Abrupt Jaunt. Yes, it is very good. I would hesitate to call it cheesy, as it is one of the few ACFs that is actually worth giving up your familiar for. Good does not always equal cheese.

But yes, in the end it comes down to what you want to get out of your spells, and since you'll only be getting 1st level spells, then it's advisable to choose ones that don't care about your caster level or Intelligence score.

If you're planning on moving into a PrC that increases your casting its a different beast altogether.

[jeice]

If you're planning on moving into a PrC that increases your casting its a different beast altogether.

Nope probably not. Something like a Rogue/Monk/Swordsage. Monk enough to get the unarmed fighting ability, Rogue for skills and sneak attack progression(and asthetic Rogue for unarmed progression) with swordsage thrown in for gaining the unarmed strike focus and shadow blade benefits. I know there is a SS unarmed variant but I want weapons, just want to be able to TWF/Snap kick with a high damage unarmed bonus while using a 2h weapon.

[nedz]

Looking at the plethoria of options a 1 level dip in Beguiler would give you then almost certainly yes.
You take a small combat hit, and you lose 2 skill points.

At low levels you can Colour Spray/Sleep/etc. and then sneak attack/CDG.
At higher levels the combat hit won't matter, but then the spells will not matter either.

Another option is a 1 level dip in Warlock, for all your ranged magical touch attack needs. Plus a useful Invokation. 2 levels is better, but then the dark power is always seductive.:smallcool:

[navar100]

People often say multiclassing a spellcaster is a terrible idea beacuse you lose caster level and delaying access to 9th level spells, if any at all before Epic. Single class spellcasters are just so awesome!

I say poppycock. Obviously a single class spellcaster will be more powerful magically than a multiclass spellcaster, but that is irrelevant. When you multiclass, you are deciding not to be a primary spellcaster in the first place.

(Exception: Ultimate Magus or Arcane Hierophant as worthy spellcaster/spellcaster primary spellcaster prestige classes)

Instead, the spellcasting augments your other class. Spells can be used as buffs. True Strike and Shield are common ones. They can offer a method of attack when your other class's attack is inefficient for whatever reason which can be benign. Can't sneak attack undead? Time to use your cleric spells.

If you're primary non-spellcaster but want to dip into a spellcasting class, know what low level spells will be helpful, mostly likely just levels 0 and 1. If you can get good use out of them with your very few spell slots for the day, then not getting +1 BAB is worth it. However, this is a matter of your personal taste and what fits your character.

[Ernir]

When it comes to dipping caster classes, Cleric 1 is usually considered the juiciest. Domain granted abilities can be very good.

Also, using fractional base bonuses from UA makes the loss a lot less painful sometimes.

[Aspenor]

Multiclassing is only a terrible idea if you get very little out of it. A Wizard/Binder/Anima Mage/Tainted Scholar can mop the floor with many pure class wizards. Of course, they only have 1 Binder level so they might as well be pure.

Basically, deeply multiclassing spellcasters is a bad idea. Splashing a level of something to gain awesome benefits is a good idea. Examples of good dips are Binder and Cleric.

[Talbot]

Dip Cloistered Cleric. Yeah, your Wis is probably crap, but we're talking about low level spells anyways. And two or three free domain feats, which are fantastic. Rogues love Travel Devotion, for example, and Animal Devotion's Str boost would more than make up for the lost BAB.

[Andion Isurand]

A cloistered cleric dip gets "better" even when you don't plan on taking any divine/devotion feats.... as you can give up Turning/Rebuking for one of the Cleric ACFs from Dragon 353 (page 89).


One of them nets you Scribe Scroll (with a 25% exp discount)...
While another nets you Endurance (plus added class skills)...

Then you have Flaws for Clerics in Dragon Magazine 326 (page 91) that also work well for this dip.

So... depending on what's allowed... its possible to get 6 feats (counting Knowledge Devotion) from a one level dip.

[vageta31]

Wis isn't high enough to cast 1st level spells, only 0. I had already considered the cloistered cleric, and it's still an option(travel domain is pure awesomeness). However I was thinking about the uses of an arcane class to give my character other types of benefits. With 1 level of monk, then advance his damage progression via feats(asthetic rogue/sup. unarmed/natural weapon), along with the caster he could be entirely self sufficient even when naked. I was also thinking about the use of true strike before some of the higher level maneuvers, or stunning fist and penetrating strike.

I plan on having some level of AoO ability with karmic strike, so something like a true strike spell followed up with penetrating strike for an automatic hit, then if hit get the double damage retort with a snap kick as well for double damage. Or if I'm ever caught and unarmed and less my armor, I could still cast mage armor/shield and such. Even things like find secret door and such could come in handy at lower levels. I guess my biggest concern is those low level spells will become worthless at some point and looking back it'll seem like a waste.

[Runestar]

Do people realise that casting true strike effectively means not attacking for that round? How can this be considered good? The only time I can think that is worth it is when quickened (eg: wizard casts quickened true-strike prior to pelting a high touch AC foe with maximized orb of acid).

I like the idea of a barb who splashes 1 lv of sorc for nerveskitter. With 12cha, you get 4 castings/round (possibly more with versatile spellcaster), basically netting you +5 initiative/encounter. The familiar is essentially 2 free feats (alertness+misc benefit).

[Noneoyabizzness]

swapping out a rogue for 1 level of caster can give you access to one fun prc

unseen seer in the complete mage.

beguilers get detect secret doors and comprehend languages/ there your 2 1st level div spells
wizard=no explanation needed
warmage-arcane disciple with certain deities who have access to cavern, greed mental, oracle, planning, undeath, wealth, or knowledge domains to get the second div spell to qualify.
dread necro/detect magic is 1st level for them as is detect undead two div and the minor ability to rebuke undead and a touch attack
sorc-not big on core sorc given the options above so far even warmage requiring a feat has a boost over common sorc
bard-requires multi level dip, as much as I love a bard if you looking just to fluff your rogue with a little magic gonna say not worth it in this build

[Escheton]

Note that for low lvl spells a potion belt (PGtF?)and potion bladders(DotU) help out a lot.

Dipping wizard for a fighter feat, umd mitigation, some immediate action short range teleportation, fist of stone and enlarge person and whatever other spells might suit you, could be worth it.

Often however, it is not.

[Ravens_cry]

Probably, especially if you're a heavy magic item user. That one level means you can wand all spells on its spell list without UMD checks, and the UMD for its scrolls is substantially easier if I remember correctly.

[Enterti]

I would say go ahead and do it, a first lv Wizard gets Int+3 1st lv spells known. Just make sure one of those spells is True Strike and you will have a net +19 over taking that next level. Any other spells that you grab will increase your versatility outside of combat and that's always a good thing.

[dextercorvia]

I love Wizards, and sneaky casters in general, but Cloistered Cleric dip is better than Wizard dip for this.

Knowledge Domain -- Swap for Knowledge Devotion
Magic Domain -- UMD mitigation for Cleric and Wizard spells
Travel Domain -- Devotion feat is good for Full Sneak Attack
6+int skill points helps you keep your skill high
Turn Undead -- So many uses. With a low Cha, it's still enough uses to refuel Travel devotion.
Can still wear armor and cast spells.

I want to second that taking True Strike is foolish unless you have some way to quicken it.

[Aspenor]

I second that cloistered cleric dip is superior for this. Travel Devotion is just that good.

That being said, a wizard dip taking the martial wizard variant for Improved Initiative and Abrupt Jaunt is great, too. You also get decent stuff like Enlarge Person, Shield (for magic missile blocking utility, but only if your DM loves that stuff), Greater Mage Hand (useful for opening questionable things at range), Nerveskitter, Instant Locksmitch (rogue-ish stuff), etc.

If I had the ability scores necessary, I'd probably do both.

Of course, I certainly hope your DM uses fractional BAB. There is no reason not to, it is a clearly superior way of determining BAB than otherwise. It basically shoves it to melees if not, because spellcasters don't really need to have an attack roll to be effective.

[vageta31]

I know you lose a round with true strike, I was thinking that it still might be worth the round loss sometimes. With something like penetrating strike where you have to hit to gain the double damage I thought it'd still be effective. I'll have to look up the nerveskitter spell.

I definitely had already toyed with the cloistered cleric idea, but I'd get no spells at low as wis is my dump stat. Travel devotion is a given, but even that costs a swift action to activate meaning you don't truly get to use it till round 2 correct? Activate then get your normal move action and single attack.

As an unarmed user the enlarge person and fist of stone sound very intriguing. There is a wizard in the party but I can't always count on him supplying every buff I want. I'd like my monk to be able to grapple/trip, especially with the swordsage mighty throw maneuvers. Enlarge person would be perfect for this ability making it almost a guarantee against all but the strongest or largest creatures. Combined with fist of stone he'd be a monster at grappling.

As a side note, how effective would it be to make a bunch of the level 1 scrolls to be used as emergency fallbacks? If I read correctly it would take 25gp per scroll but not sure on experience loss. My guy has 15 int so I'd get a bonus spell slot, and if I specialize and then take the focus specialization variant I'd get 2 more slots specific to that school?

Me taking one level of fighter is guaranteed already so the variant that allows arcane spells in armor would be perfect.

[John Campbell]

Do people realise that casting true strike effectively means not attacking for that round? How can this be considered good? The only time I can think that is worth it is when quickened (eg: wizard casts quickened true-strike prior to pelting a high touch AC foe with maximized orb of acid).
Well, if you're unlikely to hit without it (a common affliction for less-than-full-BAB types in melee), spending one round casting and one round attacking with a practically guaranteed hit is better than spending two rounds missing. (Spending two rounds casting something else may be an even better choice, though.)

Or how about spending one round casting and then one round dumping your entire BAB into a two-handed Power Attack and still practically guaranteeing a hit? Total damage output may well be higher than two rounds of full attacking, especially if your iteratives aren't doing much anyway.

For bonus points, Share-Spell it with a familiar polymorphed into a combat form. (Extra bonus points if you can work out a way to get your familiar Power Attacking with a two-hander, too.)

My last fighter/mage did all of these over the course of his career, plus just burning a couple of belt of battle charges to get the casting and the attack in in the same round. I never actually Quickened it, though... I had the feat, but being pretty sure of hitting once with my axe wasn't worth the other things I could do with the higher-level spell slot, and I didn't get Craft Rod until too late to do it that way.

I still generally prefer wraithstrike, though.


For a Rogue dip, I like Ranger, particularly Urban Ranger. It's not exactly a spellcasting level, unless you take it further than just a dip, but it does provide you with a spell list, which means you can use a fair few handy wands without messing around with UMD checks. And it doesn't cost you BAB (need four levels to actually gain any, though), and has a decent (if not quite Rogue-level) skill allowance and class skill list. Also provides all martial and some other handy class features.

[navar100]

Do people realise that casting true strike effectively means not attacking for that round? How can this be considered good? The only time I can think that is worth it is when quickened (eg: wizard casts quickened true-strike prior to pelting a high touch AC foe with maximized orb of acid).

I like the idea of a barb who splashes 1 lv of sorc for nerveskitter. With 12cha, you get 4 castings/round (possibly more with versatile spellcaster), basically netting you +5 initiative/encounter. The familiar is essentially 2 free feats (alertness+misc benefit).

Use True Strike when you will have surprise. Use True Strike when the enemy is too far away anyway to be able to attack this round. Use True Strike when you absolutely must, just cannot fail hit something to cause some important effect upon the hit and pray you don't roll a 1.

[vageta31]

I looked into nerveskitter. Nice spell.. essentially improved combat initiative for free and you don't waste any actions getting the cast. That would be a guaranteed spot on my list.

With all this in imnd, it seems the consensus that it probably is worth it provided you take the right class/spells. In which case what sort of spells not listed in the standard PHB would be the best to add to list the as melee supplementals?

Fist of Stone
Nerveskitter
???

Keep in mind I love the idea of an ocassional grapple which fist of stone and enlarge person seem perfect for(I'm assuming enlarge person allows you to get +4 grapple checks against medium creatures and +0 against large if you start as medium).

[Runestar]

Enlarge person would be another personal favourite. However, the problem is getting enough slots to support casting it and nerveskitter each combat. I suppose we may have to burn another feat to versatile spellcaster to convert the cantrips into 1st lv slots.

This would be a good use of dragon disciple, which gives extra spell slots.

[Darth Stabber]

I'm going to propose some alternatives to what has been posted here:
1)Psion - Get Dorjes and other such stuff available (Since I doubt you have UPD).

2)Warlock - Sneak attack at range the easy way, the invocations are versitile enough that you can find one that works for you, may i recommend spider climb.

3)Fighter - screw magic, bonus feat.

4)Archivist - int based divine casting, and you never need UMD on any divine spell (since they can cast any divine spell period).

5)Spell thief - just to pickup that 11th Sneak Attack die.

6)Scout - Similar to the above only it's Skirmish.

7)Barbarian - Angry Sneak Attacking

8)Duskblade - they have quickened truestrike as a first level spell (swift firststrike).

9)Incarnate - If you can't find a couple of soulmelds on that list that a skillmonkey would love, I don't want to know you. minimum CON = 12, avoid things that offer saves (wis based saves). Your maximum invested essentia is determined by hit dice not class level. If you have a feat to spare there are several incarnum feat to get that extra essentia.

10)Totemist - 1 reason: Kruthik Claws. I think I am that melds spokesman. Big buffs to hide and move silently. If you can afford 2 lvls, the acid claws from totem binding it are awesome (though arguably not as good as Girallon arms). There are several other melds that are good for rogues that you only need 1 lvl for though.

[Forged Fury]

8)Duskblade - they have quickened truestrike as a first level spell (swift firststrike).
What book is that in?

[Telonius]

Ultimately however, most of the time you spend giving yourself minor buffs would be better spent attacking your enemies. And monks, sadly, are one of the least powerful classes you could have chosen as an example. :smalltongue:

Well, it would give him a spell list, opening the door to partially-charged wands without needing to use ranks in UMD. :smallbiggrin: