That's my Way of the Ninja!

[sonofzeal]

So, I'm helping a friend build a Ninja. Yes, it has to be a CW Ninja. No, it can't be a Swordsage with the serial numbers filed off, although ToB is an allowed source (ie Shadow Blade and Martial Study are in). Dragon Mag is in, too. Houserules are a possibility. Everything except Complete Champion, really. Oh, but multiclassing's out - it has to be pure CW Ninja.

Any advice? I've heard there are some good Ninja alternate class features out there somewhere, but I can't find them.

How would you make a lvl 8 Drow Ninja viable in an Undead-heavy game?

[nedz]

Ninja in an undead heavy game ?
Your friend likes their challenges.

The only relevant power you have is Ghost Strike which works against incorporeal enemies, but you will run our of Ki, even with Feats such as Enduring Ki and Expanded Ki Pool from Complete Scoundral. Just buy Ghost Touch weapons instead.:smallbiggrin:

Dragon 327 had a racial feat which allows you to command undead. Its not very impressive though.

Take Leadership and get a useful Cohort :smallbiggrin:

Sorry I'm not being very helpful, its not for the want of trying.

[Doc Roc]

Zeal, this is the first time I've ever really been stumped in D&D.

[*.*.*.*]

He definitely needs a Truedeath Crystal(MIC) to be relevant

[Zaq]

Can we use ninja-esque PrCs? Or does it have to be Ninja 20?

Hmm, and it has to be a drow? That's . . . annoying.

Working off my old list-o'-feats (I don't have the magazines themselves), it looks like there are a pile of Ninja-specific feats in issues 342 and 351 of Dragon. It seems like the bulk of them will drain your ki pool really damn fast, but if you have a way to deal with that, it seems interesting. One of them, for instance, lets you create Hallucinatory Terrain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallucinatoryTerrain.htm) in a 40' radius for 1 round. Each point of ki you spend gives you another 2 rounds of it. This might be useful against mindless undead (who shouldn't get a save to resist, the way I see it), but even if it's not, it's bizarre enough that I could see myself taking it just for kicks.

Take ranks in Craft: Alchemy (and get your GM to conveniently ignore that stupid "must be a spellcaster" half-holdout from 3.0 rule). Sure, the positoxins in Libris Mortis aren't very good, but you have poison use as a class feature, so you may as well use it.

Beyond that? Standard antiundead items, I guess.

I briefly thought that the feat Sand Dancer, from Sandstorm, would be perfect (places crawling with undead are usually dusty as all get-out, and you can eventually buy a Bottle of Endless Sand to rig the deck), since it keys off of Wisdom and it fits well with a tumble-happy character, but then I realized that it doesn't specifically say that it affects objects, so undead will be immune to its Fort save. Damn.

[Ernir]

How would you make a lvl 8 Drow Ninja viable in an Undead-heavy game?

Is that ECL 10 Wealth? Convincing the DM that Truedeath crystals should work for Sudden Strike is a priority if he wants to use his damaging class feature.

Get Darkstalker. He'll be hiding.

Take a look at the Positoxins from Libris Mortis, see whether there's anything you want (to craft) there.







...
Psssht. Don't put many points in Con, hope he dies quickly and that he'll decide to fall in love with a not-terribad race and class next time.

[*.*.*.*]

...
Psssht. Don't put many points in Con, hope he dies quickly and that he'll decide to fall in love with a not-terribad race and class next time.

No need to be a Nazi about it. If people want to be gimped, let them be gimped.

May want to get a collar of umbral metamorphosis and all those items that enhance sneak attack(assuming the DM allows a sneak attack->Sudden Strike transparency)

[JaronK]

Does he just want classes named "ninja?" If so, the Ninja Spy PrC (Unapproachable East or OA) is a step up from CA Ninja and is actually pretty fun. And if he can even just dip Swordsage for two levels he'll be so much better off...

Also, consider going Necropolitan (to deal with the MAD issues he's bound to have) and then using that ritual that lets you teleport through shadows while taking con damage, along with the Lightsense feat. That'll give him something actually useful and he'll be extremely stealthy. Darkstalker is of course critical.

JaronK

[sonofzeal]

As I said in the first post, for now it has to be Ninja. They're brand new to the game, have already read the Ninja section of CAdv, and would be completely overwhelmed by Swordsage or other alternatives. Once they're more comfortable we can let them rebuild, but for now, Ninja.

The DM has given me the okay to be, shall we say, "creative" with the rules, up to and including outright homebrew, as long as it makes the game better and doesn't get too complicated. So, for example, I could give Ki a recharge mechanism. That might help a lot. I'd prefer to stay within the RAW, but don't feel constrained by it.

Oh, and I seem to remember hearing about a Ki-powered Solid Fog from Dragon Magazine, that arguably boosted Ninja a whole tier, but I can't seem to track it down. I already had DM 342 and 351 open, and I didn't see it in either. Anyone know what I'm (mis)remembering?

[Zaq]

Oh, and I seem to remember hearing about a Ki-powered Solid Fog from Dragon Magazine, that arguably boosted Ninja a whole tier, but I can't seem to track it down. I already had DM 342 and 351 open, and I didn't see it in either. Anyone know what I'm (mis)remembering?

The only thing I see is that Hallucinatory Terrain thingy that I mentioned. Ki-based Solid Fog would be pretty sweet, though, especially if ki had a recharge mechanic.

Also, while you're adding houserules, just friggin' let Sudden Strike hit undead things! If you need to add some kind of condition or penalty to it (like Penetrating Strike, for instance), then do so, but for the love of Pun-Pun, don't gimp a new player by making their primary enemies immune to their big trick! I think a rule I used long ago was that if the target would otherwise have been affected by SA/SS/etc., it works, but you use d4s instead of d6s. If your to-hit roll beat their AC by 5 or more (I don't remember the exact number), you get to use d6s as normal.

Also, letting them have some variation on Invisible Fist (which is a Monk ACF from Exemplars of Evil) would be very cool indeed. It could replace Ghost Step if you felt that was appropriate, or it could be in addition to it (which means that you can always fall back on Invisible Fist if you are out of ki or want to use it for other things, but you can use your ki if you don't want to wait for Invisible Fist to recharge). I dunno what you'd make him give up (the Monk usually gives up Evasion, but the Ninja doesn't get Evasion until 12) . . . maybe just make him burn a feat on it.

[Socko525]

I have a friend in my current campaign that's currently a lvl 8 ninja. We're in a demon/undead campaign so I feel your pain. Our ninja is planning to take levels in Assassin, so that would give him a few other options with some spellcasting. The one thing that he's used to great effect is spending feats on expanded ki pool and ki smite.

Outside of standard ninja tactics I don't know what to tell you I.e. Deadly precision weapon, Wisdom boosting items, etc.

I have a list of all the ninja feats from the various dragon magazines, and the magazines they're in, ill post them when I get a chance

[CodeRed]

Oh, and I seem to remember hearing about a Ki-powered Solid Fog from Dragon Magazine, that arguably boosted Ninja a whole tier, but I can't seem to track it down. I already had DM 342 and 351 open, and I didn't see it in either. Anyone know what I'm (mis)remembering?

I'm betting your thinking of the alternate power source ninjas from Dragon 354. It has 3 different versions of Ninja based upon different elements with the base ninja in CA being the wind version. The Water Ninja instead of going invisible plops an Obscuring Mist spell on himself which gives you concealment at 5ft. and total at 10ft. At level 8, you can add an inhaled or touch poison into your cloud as well (you are immune to inhaled ones in your own cloud but not touch ones). At lvl 10, instead of Obscuring Mist, your spending ki puts down the Solid Fog spell as you mention above. It's pretty solid, making you immune to non-spell ranged attacks as well as allowing you to poison your enemies. I'd show your friend Dragon 354 and explain the different abilities as different ninja villages if he's really into Naruto. Personally, I think that if used properly, the Water or Earth ones can be WAY better than the standard CA ninja.

[sonofzeal]

Okay, so we're not high enough for Solid Fog. Is Obscuring Mist instead of Invisibility a good thing? Or will it mess with the party too much?

Also, I'm thinking of adding a couple other options for her. One will be a ki-powered Stunning Fist. Is there anything else you think she should have, to make her more effective?

Finally, what do you think the recharge mechanism should be? Same as a Factotum's IP?

[Quietus]

Okay, so we're not high enough for Solid Fog. Is Obscuring Mist instead of Invisibility a good thing? Or will it mess with the party too much?

Also, I'm thinking of adding a couple other options for her. One will be a ki-powered Stunning Fist. Is there anything else you think she should have, to make her more effective?

Finally, what do you think the recharge mechanism should be? Same as a Factotum's IP?

If this is for a new player, I'd stick with the invisibility. Obscuring Mist is all well and good, but Invisibility is much more straightforward, and won't interfere with the party. I can't comment on anything else there though, I'm not familiar enough with the Ninja class.

[Khatoblepas]

Ninja fixes:

-Sudden Strike becomes Sneak Attack. Thus opening up Penetrating Strike.

-Ki Pool is per encounter, not per day, but you don't gain your Wis bonus to it.

-Elemental variants can be freely chosen, but need to be reprepared, taking 1 minute to change abilities, to attune themselves to that element. Maybe as a proviso you need to be in contact with that element to prepare it (fire won't burn you when you do this). BUt since all four elements are pretty common, it shouldn't be a problem.

- Let the ninja use "craft (alchemy)" to make acid vials. That's always a nice boost.

This probably won't raise them above Tier 4, however. Feats to give them short range teleportation and such will be needed to patch them up to a reasonable standard.

[Socko525]

Ninja fixes:

-Sudden Strike becomes Sneak Attack. Thus opening up Penetrating Strike.
.

What's Penetrating strike? There's a sidebar in one of the Complete books that says sudden strike counts as sneak attack in terms of qualifying for prestige classes and feats. I'll have to find the page number, but thought this may be helpful.

[Firechanter]

One of my former fellow players had a Ninja-style character who was able to apply his sneak attack against Undead, without a crystal but as class ability. Sorry I don't remember the exact books he used, I guess it was either Oriental Adventures or Legend of the Five Rings or both. Maybe you can yoink that class ability as a feat and give it to this CW Ninja build.

The weapon crystal is probably out anyway, since you'd need the Greater Truedeath which comes with a 10K price tag and required a +3 weapon to use. At ECL 10 you can't afford to sink 28K into a single weapon.

[SurlySeraph]

I'm betting your thinking of the alternate power source ninjas from Dragon 354. It has 3 different versions of Ninja based upon different elements with the base ninja in CA being the wind version. The Water Ninja instead of going invisible plops an Obscuring Mist spell on himself which gives you concealment at 5ft. and total at 10ft. At level 8, you can add an inhaled or touch poison into your cloud as well (you are immune to inhaled ones in your own cloud but not touch ones). At lvl 10, instead of Obscuring Mist, your spending ki puts down the Solid Fog spell as you mention above.

That with Positoxins could be pretty good. Maybe with Ravages too, I forget whether Ravages affect undead. An Exalted ninja with Touch of Golden Ice for a big Dex-draining cloud around him could work pretty well. Odd, maybe not what he wants to play, but it could work well.


Okay, so we're not high enough for Solid Fog. Is Obscuring Mist instead of Invisibility a good thing? Or will it mess with the party too much?

Also, I'm thinking of adding a couple other options for her. One will be a ki-powered Stunning Fist. Is there anything else you think she should have, to make her more effective?

Finally, what do you think the recharge mechanism should be? Same as a Factotum's IP?

Make it a Dazing Fist, undead are immune to stunning. A feat or free Sudden Strike against undead would help, ki recharge by encounter like a Factotum's IP would help, and some of those feats from Drow of the Underdark that work off your Darkness SLA uses would help (especially if you give him a ki-powered Darkness SLA).

[only1doug]

For a sneak based character in an undead heavy campaign:

Prime magic item:

Shirt of Wraith Stalking MIC Pg216
No save version of Hide from undead at will. 6000Gp

If possible also get Gauntlets of Ghost fighting (same page) to ignore incorporeal misschance and add extra damage to incorporeal enemies.

(and having these 2 items from the wraiths woe collection will also give detect undead at will)

Getting the 3rd item in the set is recommended if you can afford it (which you can)

Another 10,000 for the greater truedeath crystal (and get GM to agree that sudden strike will be treated like sneak attack.

[Doc Roc]

Collar of umbral
Fiendish wing grafts
Change s-strike to SA
Darkstalker
Penetrating strike
Craven
Truedeath crystal


Dread commando later?

[*.*.*.*]

Shirt of Wraith Stalking MIC Pg216
No save version of Hide from undead at will. 6000Gp


I forgot about this baby! It's borderline broken for undead campaigns.

[sonofzeal]

I forgot about this baby! It's borderline broken for undead campaigns.
Is it still necessary with maxed stealth and Darkstalker?