Control Body Psionic Power

[the_archduke]

Is there any reason that I couldn't manifest the Control Body power on myself? A psigish who has no need of strength or dex would be pretty powerful

[tyckspoon]

Yeah, that's one of the usual psionic party tricks. Combine it with some alternate means of maintaining concentration (Skill Tricks and feats that let you concentrate as a Swift action instead, the Solicit Psicrystal power to hand off the concentration to your psicrystal) and you can gish around based on your Int while still manifesting your own powers.

[sonofzeal]

Possible.

Limitations - limited duration, "concentration", dispellable, can't speak, can't use other powers, no AoOs, DM may throw books at your head.

[Lhurgyof]

Possible.

Limitations - limited duration, "concentration", dispellable, can't speak, can't use other powers, no AoOs, DM may throw books at your head.

I think the other limitations may be enough to not get books thrown at you.

[sonofzeal]

I think the other limitations may be enough to not get books thrown at you.
If I had a player propose that, I'd seriously facepalm. Balanced or no, RAW or no, it's a ridiculous concept. If the DM is trying to run things more seriously... :smallamused:

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't find it that ridiculous (the solicit psicrystal part), as the psicrystal is essentially a part of your own mind, so in a sense you are just leaving your motor functions to a more "primitive" mind, while you use your full power to make the laws of physics cry by outsmarting them

[Dragonmuncher]

If you think about it, it's one of the highest forms of "mind over matter." Instead of you using your normal muscles and reflexes to fight, you simply relax and allow your body to move at the speed of thought.


To put it another way, sure I know what a cartwheel looks like, and the theory of doing one, but I doubt I could DO one. But I can definitely imagine doing one.

[Psyren]

If I had a player propose that, I'd seriously facepalm. Balanced or no, RAW or no, it's a ridiculous concept. If the DM is trying to run things more seriously... :smallamused:

You'll be happy to know this tactic got nerfed to hell in Pathfinder then. :smallyuk:

[Prime32]

If I had a player propose that, I'd seriously facepalm. Balanced or no, RAW or no, it's a ridiculous concept. If the DM is trying to run things more seriously... :smallamused:
A guy so feeble and withered that he has to use psychic power to move is a ridiculous concept?


Alakazam's brain continually grows, making its head far too heavy to support with its neck. This Pokémon holds its head up using its psychokinetic power instead.

While it has strong psychic abilities and high intelligence, an Alakazam's muscles are very weak. It uses psychic power to move its body.

[sonofzeal]

His accuracy, damage, and AC all go up when he's controlling his own body... as opposed to the rest of the time? It's not true telekinesis since he can't propel his body around the room like a marionette, hovering and moving at impossible angles. That's not what happens with this power.

Any movement he could make under Control Body is a movement he could make normally. Anything he could be aware of under Control Body is a thing he could be aware of normally. Anything he could react to under Control Body is a thing he could react to normally.

So exactly why does he suddenly gain leet kungfu skillz when he has to manipulate his own body indirectly?

[Urpriest]

A guy so feeble and withered that he has to use psychic power to move is a ridiculous concept?

To be fair, citing Pokemon to prove something isn't silly is a little counterproductive.

[Douglas]

So exactly why does he suddenly gain leet kungfu skillz when he has to manipulate his own body indirectly?
Because you lack the muscular reflexes and coordination to match your mental reflexes and coordination, and now you're bypassing your muscles so they don't get in the way any more. From the Psion's perspective, he is now manipulating his body more directly than before, as it's now all mind rather than a mix of mind and body.

[Psyren]

To be fair, citing Pokemon to prove something isn't silly is a little counterproductive.

It's no more silly than any other form of fantasy fiction. I'm not even a pokemon fan myself (anymore) but dismissing it out of hand like this is extremely arbitrary.

Pokemon has a WIDE variety of fictional and fantasy influences. The Psychic-type pokemon in particular draw on many of the same sources that Psionics does, including spoon-bending, pyrokinesis, hypnosis, time manipulation, meditation, levitation, compound/hive minds etc.

[Douglas]

You want a non-pokemon example? Peter Reidinger from Pegasus in Flight by Anne McCaffrey.

Granted, he doesn't really use it for kung fu moves or anything like that, but he does use his psychic powers to move his own (thoroughly paralyzed) body around and does it well enough that it's not instantly obvious that he's not walking normally.

[sonofzeal]

Because you lack the muscular reflexes and coordination to match your mental reflexes and coordination, and now you're bypassing your muscles so they don't get in the way any more. From the Psion's perspective, he is now manipulating his body more directly than before, as it's now all mind rather than a mix of mind and body.
And the result would almost certainly be QWOP (http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html). Sorry, I don't buy it.

It works RAW, and it's not really unbalanced, but it still makes me shudder.

[Douglas]

And the result would almost certainly be QWOP (http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html). Sorry, I don't buy it.
That "game" works so utterly terribly because of the complete disconnect between the controls and, well, everything that normally goes into human walking. The psion is cutting the muscles out of the loop, but that's just one small portion of the whole system. There's a huge amount of sensory feedback for balance and positioning that the psion would have and that's just not there in the game, and the psion also has a great deal more fine tuning and gradations of control than the game's four on/off switches. Also, I can easily and accurately visualize a whole body's movement, and I can imagine a psion applying that to his whole body fairly easily. Breaking it down into individual half-limb movements like the game forces you to is a very different matter and is so difficult because it's just not how the human brain normally handles body movement in execution, perception, or understanding.

Even aside from all that, is there any part of your argument that would not be equally applicable to using Control Body on someone else? It seems like you're arguing against the power itself, not specifically its use on the manifester.

[sonofzeal]

That "game" works so utterly terribly because of the complete disconnect between the controls and, well, everything that normally goes into human walking. The psion is cutting the muscles out of the loop, but that's just one small portion of the whole system. There's a huge amount of sensory feedback for balance and positioning that the psion would have and that's just not there in the game, and the psion also has a great deal more fine tuning and gradations of control than the game's four on/off switches. Also, I can easily and accurately visualize a whole body's movement, and I can imagine a psion applying that to his whole body fairly easily. Breaking it down into individual half-limb movements like the game forces you to is a very different matter and is so difficult because it's just not how the human brain normally handles body movement in execution, perception, or understanding.

Even aside from all that, is there any part of your argument that would not be equally applicable to using Control Body on someone else? It seems like you're arguing against the power itself, not specifically its use on the manifester.
QWOP fails because we simply don't rationally control each motion. A full 95% of any physical motion is intuitive and/or automatic. If I want to wave to someone, I don't know which joints bend in which ways, how the muscles in my back move to compensate, how any of it actually holds together. I just wave.

As I said before, Control Body is not full telekinesis. You aren't yanking body parts around like a puppet on a string, or you'd be able to make the person fly too. And, as previously mentioned, a full telekinetic control would be horribly ungainly and likely ineffectual in combat.

Thus, the way I'd interpret it is in hijacking the target's automatic mental processes to support the motion. You apply telekinetic pressure to the hand in an upward direction, and send a mental cue to the hindbrain to follow that motion through. You're "controlling" the person the way the lead in swingdancing "controls" his partner, by guiding rather than forcing. A part of their mind fills in the gaps in your instructions, and the result hopefully looks fluid and natural.

I really can't see how that would work on yourself though. You could do it, but where would the advantage come from?

[Douglas]

That is quite explicitly from the power's own description not how it works. It is entirely telekinetic moving limbs around, completely and totally independent of the target's mind.

I'd say you can't make someone fly because of the magnitude of force involved.

I may not be able to tell you which joints bend in which ways to wave at someone, but I can sure as hell visualize the motion and grab someone else's arm and force that arm through the motion.

[sonofzeal]

That is quite explicitly from the power's own description not how it works. It is entirely telekinetic moving limbs around, completely and totally independent of the target's mind.

I'd say you can't make someone fly because of the magnitude of force involved.

I may not be able to tell you which joints bend in which ways to wave at someone, but I can sure as hell visualize the motion and grab someone else's arm and force that arm through the motion.
And we're kind of back in QWOP territory.

Anyway, there has to be a telepathic component to the spell, because otherwise they'll be fighting your motions, kicking and flailing to try to undermine your efforts. The spell has to interact with the target's mind to remove that conscious control and give you a nice malleable puppet, flavour text be darned.



If you had been pressing the Q, W, O, and P keys to walk your whole life, you'd know how to walk.
The fact remains that telekinetically manipulating a person's limbs is about as far away from the process of taking a gentle stroll down the lane as QWOPing is. Knowing how to QWOP wouldn't help you knowing how to walk, just like knowing how to walk doesn't help you QWOP. And neither would help you jerk someone's limbs around and make it look fluid and natural.

[Douglas]

And we're kind of back in QWOP territory.
I really do not think so. At all. There is an ENORMOUS difference between QWOP and manhandling a humanoid figure around physically. The only reasons I think walking someone else around in real life would be difficult are the magnitude of force and number of hold points required, both of which can be taken care of easily by psionics.


Anyway, there has to be a telepathic component to the spell, because otherwise they'll be fighting your motions, kicking and flailing to try to undermine your efforts.
That's what the fort save is for.


The spell has to interact with the target's mind to remove that conscious control and give you a nice malleable puppet, flavour text be darned.
Rules text, specifically the lack of the [mind-affecting] tag, also disagrees with you.

Like it or not, think it makes sense or not, physically yanking the target's limbs around is the only explanation consistent with the written text. Period.

[Moriato]

So exactly why does he suddenly gain leet kungfu skillz when he has to manipulate his own body indirectly?

Isn't that exactly what Jedis do with The Force™?

[Elric VIII]

Just putting it out there, I got about 57 feet in QWOP (the freaking hurdle messed me up) and this was the first time I've seen that. I'm going to assume two things here: 1) Psionics is more capable of manipulation than someone sitting at a keyboard hitting 4 keys and 2) the Psion has a bit more experience with using the power that I did playing the game.


@sonofzeal
Perhaps before declaring that this power cannot possibly work on yourself, you should think about the implications of using it on someone else?

Before that you should consider the mechanism behind telekinetics, in general.

Prior to that you should consider how a Psion actually interacts with and controls his own powers.

Although, before any of the previous areas are explored, would you care to explain to me how the concept of psionics and can exist?


My point is, is you can suspend disbelief that far, why is this where the line is drawn?

[sonofzeal]

@sonofzeal
Perhaps before declaring that this power cannot possibly work on yourself, you should think about the implications of using it on someone else?

Before that you should consider the mechanism behind telekinetics, in general.

Prior to that you should consider how a Psion actually interacts with and controls his own powers.

Although, before any of the previous areas are explored, would you care to explain to me how the concept of psionics and can exist?


My point is, is you can suspend disbelief that far, why is this where the line is drawn?
Suspension of disbelief is not static, "Rule of Cool" and "Rule of Fun" tell us this. D&D is a context where souls exist and magic is real; given this, your soul (consciousness) being able to affect other people, and the world around you, is plausible. I'm not going to worry too much about the ability to violate Entropy on a significant scale, because it's cool, and because it's fun, and because it's standard in this sort of exotic fiction, and because I agreed to play the game and the game assumes that's how it works.

My suspension of disbelief drops precipitously, however, when you start playing the mechanics of something intended to be used on enemies, and start using it on yourself instead because you think it'll give you an advantage. I'm always leery of that, and so as DM I would hold it to a higher standard. I'm willing to buy that a sufficiently gifted teke could manipulate his own body as well as he could move normally, but I'm not willing to buy that he could manipulate it better. Apart from obvious shows of telekinetic power, like force blasts and levitation, I can't imagine how telekinetically moving your arm is any better than moving it yourself. Maybe a little more force, but you'll be feeling it in the morning, and certainly no more speed or agility.

I fight, a lot, with a variety of weapons and styles. And any real fight is usually 90% instinct. That instinct can be trained through martial arts practice, of course, but in a real fight you move and react and counterattack far faster than you can intellectually conceptualize things. I don't believe someone who has to consciously control each and every gesture would be able to fight effectively.

When used on enemies, my suspension of disbelief is higher. The game assumes that's how it works, so I'm willing to buy it. But when used on yourself, that doesn't seem like something intended by the designers. It feels abusive, even if it isn't really, and more importantly it feels against RAI if not against RAW. My suspension of disbelief fails there.

[Elric VIII]

I fight, a lot, with a variety of weapons and styles. And any real fight is usually 90% instinct. That instinct can be trained through martial arts practice, of course, but in a real fight you move and react and counterattack far faster than you can intellectually conceptualize things. I don't believe someone who has to consciously control each and every gesture would be able to fight effectively.


I would like to state that I, as well, have been studying martial arts for most of my life, so I know what you mean. However, the entire idea of the Psion class is the fact that the mental superceeds the physical. Think of it as a similar situation as the blind man that is more capable of analyzing the information gathered by his sense of hearing. I think the main problem is that you are conceptualizing the power as you would feel while using it. In this respect your physical acuity is greater than your mental acuity, so you don't really see how a Psion can conceptualize faster than he instinctualy reacts.

I hope these assumptions are not out of line, but that's the way I see it.

For us normal humans to fully conceptualize psionics would require a feat similar to describing a specific color to a person born blind (think about it, how do you describe red without examples of something red to aid you).



When used on enemies, my suspension of disbelief is higher. The game assumes that's how it works, so I'm willing to buy it. But when used on yourself, that doesn't seem like something intended by the designers. It feels abusive, even if it isn't really, and more importantly it feels against RAI if not against RAW. My suspension of disbelief fails there.

I agree that this is not RAI, but the fact that you do not gain an inordinate amount of power from it makes me feel that it shifts from the realm of abuse to the realm of clever/unorthodox use of a tool.

[sonofzeal]

I would like to state that I, as well, have been studying martial arts for most of my life, so I know what you mean. However, the entire idea of the Psion class is the fact that the mental superceeds the physical. Think of it as a similar situation as the blind man that is more capable of analyzing the information gathered by his sense of hearing. I think the main problem is that you are conceptualizing the power as you would feel while using it. In this respect your physical acuity is greater than your mental acuity, so you don't really see how a Psion can conceptualize faster than he instinctualy reacts.

I hope these assumptions are not out of line, but that's the way I see it.

For us normal humans to fully conceptualize psionics would require a feat similar to describing a specific color to a person born blind (think about it, how do you describe red without examples of something red to aid you).
The problem is, the rules don't give Psions any special senses like that. They can't detect nearby minds, they don't have blindsight, they don't have any special awareness of their own body, they aren't automatically aware of psychic energy around them, except through those abilities gained from specific powers. I'm sure there's a wonderfully evocative inner life in their heads, they likely understand their own psychology far better than other characters, they likely have more disciplined thought processes than even monks in many ways, but I don't see any support for arguing for a special external awareness. Such an awareness would certainly be useful in more situations than just this.


I agree that this is not RAI, but the fact that you do not gain an inordinate amount of power from it makes me feel that it shifts from the realm of abuse to the realm of clever/unorthodox use of a tool.
Yeah... I can see that. Really, as much as it bugs me, I'd probably allow it with some steep Concentration checks.

[Tavar]

True, they don't get any of those without apply some kind of power. But what are they applying to themselves in this case? A power. It doesn't really go into detail about what abilities make up this power, and just because a power is most obviously used on enemies shouldn't mean it can't be used on allies. For example, there are a couple things out there that are healed by fire. Thus, fireball and similar spells gain an added utility with them, because they can heal the target.