Couple Sorcerer questions (3.5)

[Larpus]

Ok, so my DM is against the rule of learned spellcasters like Sorcerer and Wizard simply learning new spells once they level, so I would like to know, exactly which other way does a Sorcerer have to learn new spells as far as the rules go?

It's more of personal curiosity than anything else, as my DM as stated that I must learn from nature as in find a monster with the spell and learn from it.

Also, exactly how does the spell Shield work?

As in, it stacks with Mage Armor, right?

And it floats around right? Which means that it needs no hands to be used and a caster can freely cast any spells without worries?

[Halae]

yes. they come from different armor bonuses - Mage Armor works like a suit of armor, adding to your Armor Bonus, whereas the shield spell adds to your Shield Bonus, which is separate, and thus they stack

[Mystic Muse]

Ok, so my DM is against the rule of learned spellcasters like Sorcerer and Wizard simply learning new spells once they level, so I would like to know, exactly which other way does a Sorcerer have to learn new spells as far as the rules go?


As far as I can recall, other than a specific feat or two that adds one spell known or two, none. Naturally having the spells is the entire point of the Sorcerer. This isn't just a nerf to the Sorcerer, this is making them almost entirely useless since, unless there's a rule I'm not aware of or your DM just homebrews it, there's no way to learn spells as a sorcerer, and learning them is actually contradicting the entire concept.

EDIT: well, learning them isn't contradictory, but careful study is the wizard's Schick. Sorcerer spells are supposed to be more of a blood inheritance in the official Flavor/Fluff/whatever the term for background is now.

EDIT 2: If your DM is worried about power level, show him most of the spells considered almost unanimously broken in this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191109 and ask him to ban those instead. If he isn't and this is all a world building exercise then this solution won't do anything.

Also, sorry if I sound irritable at all. It's late and this may come off in a way I don't intend.

[Infernalbargain]

There's really no way for the sorcerer to learn spells RAW aside from levels. Sure there's the extra spell feat, but I doubt your DM's intention is to cut your spell list down to ~10 spells over your lifetime. Also he could do it with the know stones, but having to pay for your spells that way makes normal sorcerer compliment worth 915k (priced similarly to Pearl of Power). So unless your DM is either willing to give you an extra 34 feats or 1 million gp, you'll be completely useless. Even worse than a monk.

[Larpus]

I see, thanks for the quick replies.

Well then, I'll have a talk with him to see if I can't change his idea regarding this, as I will need some nice Sorcerer spells to be an effective Ultimate Magus.

Speaking of which, with the Ultimate Magus expanded spell knowledge class feature do I simply have extra opportunities to change my Sorcerer spell list or do I actually increase my Sorcerer spell repertoire?

Sorry if that's a dumb question, the description is not very clear on this.

[Mystic Muse]

you actually add the spells to your list of spells known.

Also, I advise against being worried about asking "Stupid" questions. That's how you learn and knowledge is power. I also don't blame you for asking since misinterpreting things can be terrible for character concepts/builds/lots of stuff.

[Sacrieur]

These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

The Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#tableSorcererSpellsKnown) can learn spells in other ways (and doesn't have to be sorc/wiz spells), but they must be chosen at the new level. But since the GM house ruled against this, I'm sure he's going to allow you to learn them on a case-by-case basis.

[Pentachoron]

knowledge is power.

Hell, it's half the battle.

Anyway, not my place to question the judgement of your DM and his silly houserules, but this is pretty crippling to the Sorcerer, especially since the "learn it from a monster" thing means he has complete control over what spells you can learn.

It might help if you point out to him that if the whole "automatically" knowing things at level up is off putting to him you could remind him that according to the fluff that power is already in the sorcerer, learning the spell at level up just represents them finally being able to access it.

[Deth Muncher]

There are also Knowstones. I don't remember where they're from, but basically, they come in all 9 flavors, and are keyed to a spell. If you've got an item on you that has a Knowstone in it and you can cast the level of spell the Knowstone is keyed to, you can cast that spell. They're nice (if you can get a hold of them, of course).

[Serpentine]

It can make sense for the Wizard, which has options - copying stuff into their spellbook, studying at universities, that sort of thing. But a Sorcerer having to learn from someone else... nuh-uh.
If he wants some fluff explanations, here's a couple:

- The Sorcerer is in contact with the source of his magic. Daily (e.g. during meditation time), regurlarly, or just at level up time, this being visits the Sorcerer and teaches him secrets of his blood.

- The Sorcerer regurlarly practices and hones her craft whenever she has time. She experiments with new ways of handling her innate power, and traces its pathways in her body as she meditates. New spells at level up represent the practical control and application of these newly developed spells to a useful degree.

There's sure to be more.

[mikau013]

As far as I can recall, other than a specific feat or two that adds one spell known or two, none. Naturally having the spells is the entire point of the Sorcerer. This isn't just a nerf to the Sorcerer, this is making them almost entirely useless since, unless there's a rule I'm not aware of or your DM just homebrews it, there's no way to learn spells as a sorcerer, and learning them is actually contradicting the entire concept.

EDIT: well, learning them isn't contradictory, but careful study is the wizard's Schick. Sorcerer spells are supposed to be more of a blood inheritance in the official Flavor/Fluff/whatever the term for background is now.

EDIT 2: If your DM is worried about power level, show him most of the spells considered almost unanimously broken in this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191109 and ask him to ban those instead. If he isn't and this is all a world building exercise then this solution won't do anything.

Also, sorry if I sound irritable at all. It's late and this may come off in a way I don't intend.

I'm sorry but imo you're flat out wrong.
Yes standard rules are that the sorcerer gains the spells when they lvl up.
But using this variant rule from the dmg doesn't make them useless at all.
I'm assuming at least here that the dm wants to use the variant rule on page 198 of the dmg. This could be fun, or not :).

Keep in mind as a player you could also use the research original spell option in the dmg.
Though if you really hate this particular option, perhaps try to convine your dm to allow you to make a dragonpact (page 87 from dragon magic).
Imo it is more fun to have, since it still gives that connection to magical beings vibe, but it doesn't force you to find a random creature to teach you things every lvl up.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm sorry but imo you're flat out wrong.
Yes standard rules are that the sorcerer gains the spells when they lvl up.
But using this variant rule from the dmg doesn't make them useless at all.
I'm assuming at least here that the dm wants to use the variant rule on page 198 of the dmg. This could be fun, or not :).


He made no mention of this being a variant, simply that the sorcerer would not be learning spells at level up as normal, and both wizards and sorcerers add spells to their list based on what monsters use. However, since Sorcerers don't really "Learn" their spells and short of an item or a feat don't get extra spells, this would mean the sorcerer didn't get anything except possibly the spells at first level making them, while not useless I guess, pretty darn terrible.

[mikau013]

He made no mention of this being a variant, simply that the sorcerer would not be learning spells at level up as normal, and both wizards and sorcerers add spells to their list based on what monsters use. However, since Sorcerers don't really "Learn" their spells and short of an item or a feat don't get extra spells, this would mean the sorcerer didn't get anything except possibly the spells at first level making them, while not useless I guess, pretty darn terrible.

Except that sorcerers can learn new spells, thus I really don't see the, thus they can only know first lvl spells pov

[Mystic Muse]

Except that sorcerers can learn new spells, thus I really don't see the, thus they can only know first lvl spells pov

I'm probably just completely misinterpreting this. Never mind.

[Serpentine]

To make this discussion actually useful, the variant from the DMG:

-If you require wizards to actually spend game time on spell research to gain those new spells, assume that it takes one day per spell (but no roll is needed for spells that come with level advancement) and that such research costs twice what it would normally cost to have an NPC cast that spell for the character1
It's perfectly all right for two PC wizards to share spells.
According to the standard rules, sorcerers and bards don't need to study books to get their spells but just automatically gain new spells when they gain levels. However, as a variant rule you could require that each sorcerer contact an intelligent supernatural entity... to learn new spells...2 These supernatural patrons teach their mortal friends spells in exchange for an occasional service.-

I hope, for the sake of the OP's game, the DM outlined what options they do have for learning new spells...


1. Man, Wizards'll get expensive...
2. As in one of my possibilities, above.

[Larpus]

you actually add the spells to your list of spells known.

Also, I advise against being worried about asking "Stupid" questions. That's how you learn and knowledge is power. I also don't blame you for asking since misinterpreting things can be terrible for character concepts/builds/lots of stuff.
I see, thanks for the answer.

About the Sorcerer dilemma, I spoke to my DM and he clarified what he meant: as a Sorcerer I would have to find some creature that knows the spell (other Sorcerers and Wizards included) and either succeed on a DC 20 + Spell Level Spellcraft check to learn the spell naturally or have them "cast" the spell on me in a special way where they imbue me with the spell and its steps instead of actually having me as the target of the spell.

While at first this seems like a pain in the behind, he went ahead and mentioned that this meant that I had a much greater control and versatility over my spell list as a trade-off for that (and nearly complete control if I become a Ultimate Magus or just take some Wizard levels), but that he would be willing to use the core rules if that's what I preferred (the rule was only mandatory for Wizards and book-based casters).


Since I don't want to start a new thread and I have another question that is spellcaster-related, I'm going to ask here:

1. On the situation where I trade my familiar in the Sorcerer class for something else, upon getting the Wizard class do I get a new chance to get a familiar (and the option of trading it again for something else for the Wizard class)?

I mean, if I still had the familiar the effect would be that both classes would merge together to define the familiar's level, which makes me conclude that you actually sort of do get the familiar again, just having a different effect of ending up with two familiars.

2. Another one that is more out of curiosity than anything else: as a Wizard I plan on specializing in Divination and letting go of Necromancy (the world we're playing at views Necromancy as a big bad thing, even outside of undead stuff), but can I technically still use Necromancy spells with my Sorcerer levels?

Again, I don't have any since it's such a big taboo, but technically speaking would I be able to if I had?

3. This one is more about the spell descriptions and has stolen me some nights of sleep: some spells (Summon Monster, for example) have their duration listed as something like "1 round/level (D)", but what does the (D) mean?

Again, sorry if anything sounds ridiculously dumb or something, rather new to actually being a spellcaster.

[Keld Denar]

1) I'm pretty sure that if you get a familiar from 2 different classes, you simply stack those classes together to determine the abilities of that familiar. That is how its handled with other class features like Turning and Animal Companions. Thus, a Wizard4/Sorc1 would be treated as having the same familiar as a similar Wizard5.

2) If you ban Necromancy on your Wizard side, it does NOT impact the spells you know on your Sorc side. Its actually a common tactic for an Ultimate Magus to specialize, and then use the other side casting to pick up a few useful spells in the banned school. This also opens back up Spell Trigger items like wands.

3) The (D) means Dismissable. That means you can spend a standard action to end the spell prematurely. If a spell doesn't have the (D), that means that you have to wait the entire duration for the spell to end, or dispel it early using Dispel Magic. Its written here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration).


(D) Dismissible
If the Duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell’s effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell’s verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

A spell that depends on concentration is dismissible by its very nature, and dismissing it does not take an action, since all you have to do to end the spell is to stop concentrating on your turn.

[Sacrieur]

Don't forget that you're not just limited to Wizard/Sorcerer spells when you learn spells that way. Unlike wizards who can only know Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

---

As a sorcerer you can learn Bard or Druid spells.

[only1doug]

I see, thanks for the answer.

About the Sorcerer dilemma, I spoke to my DM and he clarified what he meant: as a Sorcerer I would have to find some creature that knows the spell (other Sorcerers and Wizards included) and either succeed on a DC 20 + Spell Level Spellcraft check to learn the spell naturally or have them "cast" the spell on me in a special way where they imbue me with the spell and its steps instead of actually having me as the target of the spell.

While at first this seems like a pain in the behind, he went ahead and mentioned that this meant that I had a much greater control and versatility over my spell list as a trade-off for that (and nearly complete control if I become a Ultimate Magus or just take some Wizard levels), but that he would be willing to use the core rules if that's what I preferred (the rule was only mandatory for Wizards and book-based casters).


Does this mean that you have no upper limit on spells known?

Can learn spells from any spell list?

Can wizards and sorcerers teach each other spells?

Can you train your own sorcerer spells from your wizard spells?



Since I don't want to start a new thread and I have another question that is spellcaster-related, I'm going to ask here:

1. On the situation where I trade my familiar in the Sorcerer class for something else, upon getting the Wizard class do I get a new chance to get a familiar (and the option of trading it again for something else for the Wizard class)?

I mean, if I still had the familiar the effect would be that both classes would merge together to define the familiar's level, which makes me conclude that you actually sort of do get the familiar again, just having a different effect of ending up with two familiars.


Yes, Best choice is to trade in sorcerer familiar for optional, trade in wizard familiar for optional and regain familiar by obtain familiar feat (as PRCs don't count towards familiar levels unless they specifically state it but obtain familiar scales with caster level rather than class level)



2. Another one that is more out of curiosity than anything else: as a Wizard I plan on specializing in Divination and letting go of Necromancy (the world we're playing at views Necromancy as a big bad thing, even outside of undead stuff), but can I technically still use Necromancy spells with my Sorcerer levels?

Again, I don't have any since it's such a big taboo, but technically speaking would I be able to if I had?

Yes, your sorcerer levels will allow you to cast spells from your banned schools



3. This one is more about the spell descriptions and has stolen me some nights of sleep: some spells (Summon Monster, for example) have their duration listed as something like "1 round/level (D)", but what does the (D) mean?

Again, sorry if anything sounds ridiculously dumb or something, rather new to actually being a spellcaster.

As previously mentioned (D)= dismissable

Don't worry about asking questions, always happy to answer.

[Larpus]

Don't forget that you're not just limited to Wizard/Sorcerer spells when you learn spells that way. Unlike wizards who can only know Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

---

As a sorcerer you can learn Bard or Druid spells.
Indeed, he actually mentioned that it is possible, however the spell must be arcane, so Druid and Cleric spells are out.


Does this mean that you have no upper limit on spells known?

Can learn spells from any spell list?

Can wizards and sorcerers teach each other spells?

Can you train your own sorcerer spells from your wizard spells?

I still have the normal Sorcerer known spell limit, however I work more like a rechargeable battery in that as long as I have someone to teach/cast on me, I can trade such spells at will.

And yeah, if I'm half Sorcerer, half something else also arcane, such as Wizard, I can do the trick myself, but again, I don't learn *new* spells as in the Ultimate Magus feature, I *replace* a known spell with the new one.

About Sorcerers teaching Wizards, they already can (without any house rules even): if memory doesn't fail me, there is a rule about a Wizard being able to learn a spell just from looking at it as long as he passes a Spellcraft check with, if I can remember correctly, DC 25 + spell level. If I'm crazy and none of that exists, it's still doable via scrolls.



Yes, Best choice is to trade in sorcerer familiar for optional, trade in wizard familiar for optional and regain familiar by obtain familiar feat (as PRCs don't count towards familiar levels unless they specifically state it but obtain familiar scales with caster level rather than class level)
To be honest, didn't even think of that, but that is indeed a much more smart way to do things, since the Ultimate Magus levels won't do squat for my familiar power.

One thing tho. I really don't see the big benefits of having a familiar...I mean, I do see the benefits, but I can't help but think that the risk is just too big since if the thing dies I get struck real bad and it takes so freaking long to replace it. Not to mention the money.

Is there anywhere with couple familiar-based tactics (other than deliver touch attacks/use its features for scouting)?


Yes, your sorcerer levels will allow you to cast spells from your banned schools
I see, that is nice to know. If I had the idea of becoming an Ultimage Magus beforehand I would've specialized in something else, but it's ok.


And thanks for the answer regarding the (D), somehow I failed to notice that bit of text when I read it and the (D) haunted me, and all I could think when staring at it was that bit of lyrics from Tenacious D: "You are the devil? We are the D! We are the D, we are the D, we are the D, we are the D!"



Now I have (even) more questions:

1. Overall, what are considered good feats for a spellcaster to have (mainly insterested in metamagic, obviously)?

My ultimate build will be Wizard 8, Sorcerer 2, Ultimate Magus 10; for spells I'm like a Wizard 15/Sorcerer 12 and my CL will be Wizard 19/Sorcerer 16. So far I've got Spellcasting Prodigy (I count as faving +2 INT for determining spells per day bonuses and CL), Mind over Body (INT instead of CON on HP) and Fiery Burst (prepare a level 2+ Fire spell and I can cast all day this Fiery Burst spell-like which deals 1d6/level of prepared spell).

As for what I'm looking at I have, in no particular order: Energy Substitution, Empower Spell, Extend Spell and possibly Repeat Spell.

2. Can item creation feats be used in conjunction? As in the group Cleric use her Brew Potion but have me cast the spell in the potion instead or I use Craft Wand and have her cast the spell on the wand?

3. This one is 100% Cleric oriented, but the group's Cleric mentioned that she saw this high-end spell that was something like "Aspect of the Deity", where she would become something like an avatar for some time, however we're both having trouble to locate this spell, anyone heard of it and know where it might be found?

[Keld Denar]

Familiar Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870010/The_Familiars_Handbook_--_2007)

1) Ultimate Magus Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872322/Preliminary_Ultimate_Magus_Handbook)

2) Yes. Other casters can supply the spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

3) Try Visage of the Diety. Complete Divine. Page 187. Comes in 3 flavors. Lesser, Vanillia, and Greater, levels 3, 6, and 9 respectively.

[Bakkan]

Visage of the Deity and its Greater and Lesser versions were reprinted in the Spell Compendium, so that is the new primary source for them if there are any differences between the two versions.

[only1doug]

Indeed, he actually mentioned that it is possible, however the spell must be arcane, so Druid and Cleric spells are out.


I still have the normal Sorcerer known spell limit, however I work more like a rechargeable battery in that as long as I have someone to teach/cast on me, I can trade such spells at will.

And yeah, if I'm half Sorcerer, half something else also arcane, such as Wizard, I can do the trick myself, but again, I don't learn *new* spells as in the Ultimate Magus feature, I *replace* a known spell with the new one.

About Sorcerers teaching Wizards, they already can (without any house rules even): if memory doesn't fail me, there is a rule about a Wizard being able to learn a spell just from looking at it as long as he passes a Spellcraft check with, if I can remember correctly, DC 25 + spell level. If I'm crazy and none of that exists, it's still doable via scrolls.

Excellent, in this case don't request the normal sorcerer learning proceedure, you can fill your sorcerer abilities from your wizard spells. (all your sorcerer spells will exist in your wizard spellbook, and you can change what your sorcerer spell load is as required (within a few days of preperation time probably)) Exception, spells from banned schools will only exist in your sorcerer list and if you swap them out they are gone forever (well until replaced). well worth scribing multiple (at least 3) scrolls of anything you are going to swap out (situational casting x2 + relearn).



To be honest, didn't even think of that, but that is indeed a much more smart way to do things, since the Ultimate Magus levels won't do squat for my familiar power.

One thing tho. I really don't see the big benefits of having a familiar...I mean, I do see the benefits, but I can't help but think that the risk is just too big since if the thing dies I get struck real bad and it takes so freaking long to replace it. Not to mention the money.

Is there anywhere with couple familiar-based tactics (other than deliver touch attacks/use its features for scouting)?

there are some nice things that familiars can bring, ultimately its up to you. (I tend to avoid them)



I see, that is nice to know. If I had the idea of becoming an Ultimage Magus beforehand I would've specialized in something else, but it's ok.


20/20 hindsight... as long as you enjoy playing the character its all good.



And thanks for the answer regarding the (D), somehow I failed to notice that bit of text when I read it and the (D) haunted me, and all I could think when staring at it was that bit of lyrics from Tenacious D: "You are the devil? We are the D! We are the D, we are the D, we are the D, we are the D!"


lol



Now I have (even) more questions:

1. Overall, what are considered good feats for a spellcaster to have (mainly insterested in metamagic, obviously)?

My ultimate build will be Wizard 8, Sorcerer 2, Ultimate Magus 10; for spells I'm like a Wizard 15/Sorcerer 12 and my CL will be Wizard 19/Sorcerer 16. So far I've got Spellcasting Prodigy (I count as faving +2 INT for determining spells per day bonuses and CL), Mind over Body (INT instead of CON on HP) and Fiery Burst (prepare a level 2+ Fire spell and I can cast all day this Fiery Burst spell-like which deals 1d6/level of prepared spell).

As for what I'm looking at I have, in no particular order: Energy Substitution, Empower Spell, Extend Spell and possibly Repeat Spell.


I almost always have my arcane casters take eschew materials, your GM may not worry about such things though.

[Larpus]

Thanks for the answers everyone, I really appreciate them.


Excellent, in this case don't request the normal sorcerer learning proceedure, you can fill your sorcerer abilities from your wizard spells. (all your sorcerer spells will exist in your wizard spellbook, and you can change what your sorcerer spell load is as required (within a few days of preperation time probably)) Exception, spells from banned schools will only exist in your sorcerer list and if you swap them out they are gone forever (well until replaced). well worth scribing multiple (at least 3) scrolls of anything you are going to swap out (situational casting x2 + relearn).
Yeah, we'll be using the house rule way of things, even without any other caster, It'll be better in the long run.


there are some nice things that familiars can bring, ultimately its up to you. (I tend to avoid them)
Yeah, I read the handbook and, while there are some definitely nice things there, I think I prefer to spend my feats into increasing my spellcasting powers, as the Handbook itself stated, Wiz/Sorc familiars are pretty bad due to low HP and BAB, and i got this far without ever thinking "Gee, sure would be nice to have a familiar", so I guess I'm good.


I almost always have my arcane casters take eschew materials, your GM may not worry about such things though.
He doesn't really mind, he just makes me throw some coins at the magic shop vendor every now and then to buy the materials, he only truly cares in the cases were Eschew Materials wouldn't help me.


Now for a more subjective question: I'm trying to work with him a houserule that I can make "Metamagic Scrolls" out of metamagic feats that I have, which work like this: they count as a spell of the needed adjustment (Extend is 1st level, Empower is 2nd, etc), once read the effect lasts for my relevant ability modifier (min 1) rounds or until used and makes the first spell I cast within that time (and the first only) to have the desired metamagic feat applied to it.

And no, it does not allow me to metamagic a spell before I actually can (such as an Empowered Fireball at level 5), nor does it allow me to metamagic a spell in a way that it couldn't be normally metamagic-ed (such as an Empowered 8th or 9th level spell), also, cannot be used with Quicken Spell or Heighten Spell.

Do you think such an ability is overpowered?

[ericgrau]

The price of a metamagic scroll could be based on metamagic rods which do the same thing. Basically 1/50th the price of the rod but you can only use it on a single spell is fair (if your DM agrees).

Level 1-3 spell
extend, silent, enlarge (pick only 1 when buying or making the scroll): 60 gp
empower: 180 gp
maximize, widen: 280 gp
quicken: 700 gp

Level 1-6 spell
extend, silent, enlarge: 220 gp
empower: 650 gp
maximize, widen: 1080 gp
quicken: 1510 gp

Level 1-9 spell
extend, silent, enlarge: 490 gp
empower: 1460 gp
maximize, widen: 2420 gp
quicken: 3400 gp

To craft such a scroll would require scribe scroll, the metamagic feat, half the above gp cost and xp equal to 1/25th the amount of the gp cost above (before halving it). Again, only if your DM agrees.

[Analytica]

I seem to recall reading somewhere (might even be the PHB) suggesting sorcerers seek out magical creatures and learn spells from them. Dragon and lammasu mentors were mentioned. I dislike this option though. Sorcerers are already weak enough as they are, and innate power is nicer fluff.

[Larpus]

The price of a metamagic scroll could be based on metamagic rods which do the same thing. Basically 1/50th the price of the rod but you can only use it on a single spell is fair (if your DM agrees).

Level 1-3 spell
extend, silent, enlarge (pick only 1 when buying or making the scroll): 60 gp
empower: 180 gp
maximize, widen: 280 gp
quicken: 700 gp

Level 1-6 spell
extend, silent, enlarge: 220 gp
empower: 650 gp
maximize, widen: 1080 gp
quicken: 1510 gp

Level 1-9 spell
extend, silent, enlarge: 490 gp
empower: 1460 gp
maximize, widen: 2420 gp
quicken: 3400 gp

To craft such a scroll would require scribe scroll, the metamagic feat, half the above gp cost and xp equal to 1/25th the amount of the gp cost above (before halving it). Again, only if your DM agrees.
Yes, I used these calculations and the DM agreed to them, which is a relief as we're playing a rather low magic campaign, so metamagic rods would be costy and hard to find.


Now, just so I don't kill the tradition, more questions:

As everyone and their moms know, many spells escalate as the caster's level increase, however, as a general rule, most damage spells have their damage listed as "1dX/caster level" (Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc), while most duration spells have their durations listed as "1[time]/level" (Mage Armor, Bull's Strength, etc).

The question is: is the difference in wording relevant?

As in spells listed as "caster level" use my actual caster level, which won't be the same as my character level in case I multiclass and will affect the price of scrolls and whatnot; while the ones listed as "level" use my actual character level and thus if I cast Mage Armor as a Wiz lvl5 or a Wiz1/Rogue4 they'll both last the same as well as I can scribe a Mage Armor scroll as CL1 and it'll still last for 5 hours since I'm reading it as a lvl5 Wizard.

Is that a correct assumption?

[only1doug]

Now, just so I don't kill the tradition, more questions:

As everyone and their moms know, many spells escalate as the caster's level increase, however, as a general rule, most damage spells have their damage listed as "1dX/caster level" (Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc), while most duration spells have their durations listed as "1[time]/level" (Mage Armor, Bull's Strength, etc).

The question is: is the difference in wording relevant?


No. they both refer to the same thing.


As in spells listed as "caster level" use my actual caster level, which won't be the same as my character level in case I multiclass and will affect the price of scrolls and whatnot; while the ones listed as "level" use my actual character level and thus if I cast Mage Armor as a Wiz lvl5 or a Wiz1/Rogue4 they'll both last the same as well as I can scribe a Mage Armor scroll as CL1 and it'll still last for 5 hours since I'm reading it as a lvl5 Wizard.

Is that a correct assumption?

Nope. it's all caster level. if you plan to multiclass then Practiced spellcaster will be a useful feat for you (gain +4 caster levels in one of your spellcasting classes up to a maximum of your total character level).

[Keld Denar]

No. Level WRT spells pretty much universally refers to caster level. Your caster level is a function of your character level, but isn't always the same. You get 1 caster level with a given class per class level in that spellcasting class. You do not gain caster levels if you take levels in classes that don't progress that spellcasting class (such as your rogue example). There are also ways to increase your caster level that don't involve taking levels. An Orange Prism Ioun Stone, for example, gives +1 CL, as does the Archmage Spell Power ability, and similar abilities of the Master Specialist and Ultimage Magus PrCs and a host of other class abilities and feats and items.

So, without any special circumstances, the Mage Armor cast by a Wizard1/Rogue4 would be the same duration as a Mage Armor cast by a Wizard1, namedly 1 hour. If the character took the Practiced Spellcaster feat (CArcane and CDivine, gives +4 CLs, up to a maximum of your HD), then the Wizard1/Rogue4 would have a CL of 5 and his Mage Armor would last 5 hours, but he'd only have the spells/day of a Wizard 1.

CL and Spellcaster level are related, but not the same.

[Larpus]

Well, that is a bit of a shame.

Not that I wanted to be the ubber l33tz0r mage or anything, but just thought that it would be ok to scribe CL1 scrolls for spells like Alarm and the such and it would last as if I were the one to cast them.

Still, thanks for the answers guys!

[Keld Denar]

The only ways to get items to replicate your CL is either to use a staff (which uses its own CL, or your CL, whichever is higher), or to use the feat Residual Magic from CMage. Its a tactical feat, and the oft cited ability is that if you cast a spell twice, the first time with metamagic and the second time without, the second casting will have that metamagic applied to it automatically. The second, less well known ability, is that if you cast a spell, and then use a spell trigger item of that same spell, the spell trigger item will emulate your CL.

This can be useful at times. Buy a CL1 wand of Magic Missile. Cast MM, then wave the wand. You just got 9x25g worth of extra bang for your buck. Useful for mopping up an encounter after you've already disabled the bad guys.

[Sacrieur]

Errr yeah, druid spells are divine (I keep forgetting that!).

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So yes, as a sorcerer you can obtain any arcane spell from any other class. Neat, right? A lot of people overlook this, but the sorcerer is actually more flexible than the wizard (in terms of character building).