If Tarquin were to run a campaign against Xykon

[M.A.D]

Apologies if there had been a similar thread, but the closet one I've seen was one where they'd compare them in a fair fight, and that's not what I'm looking for.

So as stated by the thread's name, if Tarquin were to go against Xykon, fully prepared, possibly with the might of the empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears behind him, my question:

Who do you think would win? And how? State any strategy or battle plan that you find decent, doesn't need to be plausible

And for that matter, would it make a difference if Xykon were or were not expecting Tarquin? And would Xykon win if he were still in Azure city? Edited for clarification's sake, this is still a Tarquin vs Xykon discussion

[Ancalagon]

"Fighting Xykon" is not a matter of armies or empires.

Xykon does not care much for those things, going against Xykon is always an individual thing. No matter what ressources, armies, or empires are involved: In the end it comes down to "Xykon vs. X", where X is an individual or a small group of (relatively) powerful individuals.

Therefore, I think the proposed question here is pointless. Xykon does not stand for an empire and he is individually way too powerful and not caring about the stuff around him that you could somehow move "against him" with any sort of army or entire empire.

If Tarquin or anyone would overrun Azure City, Xykon would not care at all and move on (taking CitD, Redcloak, and by now probably Tsukiko as well with him).

[Kish]

Tarquin would attempt to "ally" with Gobbotopia. That part might actually work, but would almost certainly fail because Redcloak wouldn't trust him the way Amun-Zora did.

Then, assuming his goal was to destroy Xykon and not to conquer Gobbotopia, he'd wait for Xykon to leave the city and then send his army against Xykon. After killing a few waves of attackers, Xykon would say "enough of this," scry to determine who was behind this, teleport to Tarquin, and blast him into ash before Tarquin could say, "But I'm the main villain!"

[M.A.D]

"Fighting Xykon" is not a matter of armies or empires.

Xykon does not care much for those things, going against Xykon is always an individual thing. No matter what ressources, armies, or empires are involved: In the end it comes down to "Xykon vs. X", where X is an individual or a small group of (relatively) powerful individuals.

Therefore, I think the proposed question here is pointless. Xykon does not stand for an empire and he is individually way too powerful and not caring about the stuff around him that you could somehow move "against him" with any sort of army or entire empire.

If Tarquin or anyone would overrun Azure City, Xykon would not care at all and move on (taking CitD, Redcloak, and by now probably Tsukiko as well with him).

The proposed question here is one individual who has access to resources from 3 empires going against another individual goes by the name Xykon. I only mention Azure city as a proposed counter measure, and what I want to discuss is which of the individuals in question would make it out alive

Note that in this context, Tarquin is the one actively seeking a feud with Xykon, and the latter is not the type to flee from a fight

[Silver Swift]

The proposed question here is one individual who has access to resources from 3 empires going against another individual goes by the name Xykon. I only mention Azure city as a proposed counter measure, and what I want to discuss is which of the individuals in question would make it out alive

Note that in this context, Tarquin is the one actively seeking a feud with Xykon, and the latter is not the type to flee from a fight

The problem is that most of Tarquin's resources (primarily, the armies of the EoB) are very hard to effectively use against an epic level magic user. He might be able to conquer Gobbotopia, but that wouldn't really hurt Xykon personally.

The only resource that Tarquin has that are going to be useful against Xykon (that we know of) is his former adventuring party.

[Ancalagon]

Tarquin can try to use his wealth to aquire the help of powerful adventurers. But the problem is: Xykon is very capable of defeating individual foes, he has shown that in the past.
Also, there is no Empire for him at stake he'd have to protect, so he can always bail out (teleport, fly) without losing anyting of value to him.

So Tarquins ressources get reduced to "lots of cash" - and that is something that can buy only so-and-so-much. There's not that many mercenaries that you can hire with ten billion dollars/gp in your account which you could not hire with 100 million - and Xykon should already have enough foes who play in the latter category.

[M.A.D]

The only resource that Tarquin has that are going to be useful against Xykon (that we know of) is his former adventuring party.

I'd assume they were included in the bill, otherwise how can he control the other 2 empires?


Tarquin can try to use his wealth to aquire the help of powerful adventurers. But the problem is: Xykon is very capable of defeating individual foes, he has shown that in the past.
Also, there is no Empire for him at stake he'd have to protect, so he can always bail out (teleport, fly) without losing anyting of value to him.

So Tarquins ressources get reduced to "lots of cash" - and that is something that can buy only so-and-so-much. There's not that many mercenaries that you can hire with ten billion dollars/gp in your account which you could not hire with 100 million - and Xykon should already have enough foes who play in the latter category.

Tarquin is, other than a genius evil dictator, also a former adventurer, and a fairly high level one at that (judging by what he said about being capable of guarding himself against any prestiges class, which implies many, many saving throws) When I say 3 empires, I also mean all the magic items and cash he could take from it that could be effective against Xykon, and all the XPs he'd gained from defeating people who stood in his ways while he was still conquering them.

In the past, Xykon had made a mistake of underestimating Roy, which led to his comical and probably unrealistic temporary defeat. This is why I posed another question, that is, whether Tarquin could win if Xykon did or did not see him coming, by which I mean if Xykon didn't know that a genius evil dictator was plotting his demise before showing up on the crystal ball, raiding Xykon's dungeon or whatever, and of course assuming that said dictator had INDEED been plotting his demise

[Ancalagon]

You are limited to "1 item activation per round".

Tarquin surely is "fairly high level". But what is that? Level 15? 18? 21? We do know that Xykon clearly is beyond "fairly high level" (he's 27 or 28+) and that he is, due to his energy drains a VERY able combatant who probaly can get down ANY single opponent with them.
If you want to get to Xykon, you must a) anchor him to prevent his teleport, b) be immune to his energy drains and c) must be immune to his meteor swarms. Then you or your group stands a chance. This is the knowledge you need to obtain or your level does not matter (Xykon has been shown to defeat people of higher level than him (e.g. Master Fyron)).

If you say "magic items", you have to specify. Any opponent of Xykon worth their salt (have some ressources and level) can probably obtain any item or spell listed in any book apart from the most powerful ones and major artifacts.
In what way can Tarquin get "even more"?
Note it might very well be there's not enough high-level adventurers on the entire world that could and WOULD go against Xykon for money.
The order is not sure if there is even a good or neutral cleric in the world who can cast higher spells, Bozzok as the guildmaster of the most powerful thieves guild in the world (Greysky is the thief-capital) and is level 18, the order is "fairly high" with their level 15ish, Miko and O-Chul as the most powerful fighters of the Sapphire Guard are NOT epic (and maybe around level 15)... so there is reason to believe no money in the world will let you hire 4 or 10 level 15 to 20+ chars to deal with Xykon. And that is the level of power you would need vs. him in any direct confrontation. Tarquin has money and power but he cannot make "powerful allies" out of thin air.

What item combination or what persons could he get with his ressources that others could not of they set their minds to it? How is he protected from Xykon seeking him out and simply obliterating him once he got perceived as "annoyance" (not even "threat")?

[pasadenajones]

Tarquin is a smart, patient, careful planner that beats sort of dumb, impatient impulsive Xykon in any even fight. This isn’t an even fight. While I don’t really understand the details of Xykon’s magical power, he can clearly bend the laws of physics to his will in several destructive ways. If I were in Tarquins position and I needed to go after Xykon for some reason here is what I might do.

1. Assemble an alliance of Xykon’s enemies. He has made more than a few, and he has been sloppy about finishing them up after he has beaten them. The Paladins are still around, four of them at least. Also, the elves, they live forever, they are likely to be individuals among them that have gained a few epic levels in their thousand lifetimes. Gerard if he is still around and willing to help, Redcloak referred to Gerard as capable of using the most powerful illusions ever devised and Roy described him as an epic level illusionist. His talents would be most useful if you could persuade his assistance. Also in the same vein is Miss Tormook, does she possess any abilities that may be useful toward defeating Xykon? Could she steal the phylactery? If so, game over for the lich! Let’s not forget the Order, despite their ragtag disposition they have faced the lich once and are dedicated to doing so again. These particular groups share Xykon as an enemy and Tarquin, with his outsized charisma might persuade them to put aside differences to deal with a threat to existence.
2. Destroy Xykon’s allies. Kill Redcloak, or better yet capture him and interrogate him for information, put Ochul in charge of the questioning. Xykon does not care for his allies but that doesn’t mean they aren’t useful to him. Put Tsukikko down for the dirt nap. Distract monster in the dark with new toys. Kill every last goblinoid in Azure city. When you face Xykon he should be alone, very alone.
3. Research your opponent. Have Haley sneak a peek at the monster manual, or get Lizgreaper to contact his gods for info on Xykon. The gods have a blackout on snarl information, not on Xykon info, figure his weaknesses, find a way to best the lich then do it, and do it when he is down and already hurting.

[grimbold]

tarquin could probs assassinate redcloak if he wanted
then ally with gobbotopia
at that point chasing xykon down would not be too hard

[King of Nowhere]

You are limited to "1 item activation per round".



Exactly. That also applies to Xykon. He is probably the strongest being in the world, but he can still be swarmed by dozens of high level adventurers.
I don't kno0w what are the resources of Tarquin's empire (I would suppose it's quite poor because of the constant warfare, but it seems it's whealty enough), and I don't know how difficcult it is to find and recruit high level adventurers in ootsworld (this is somnething very specific for a campaign world. And, in my opinion, a very important factor to determine the balance of power between natipons and high level adventurers).

I suppose Tarquin don't have direct access to many high level people aside from his group, but he can surely hire some. he can also ask the elves for help. Xykon is a big threath for everyone, so they should give help. And sincce high level adventurers generally get raised when they die, they normally die only of old age. So I suppose the elves should have several high level people within them.

I think a couple dozens 15ish level adventurers with some preparation (for example, the fly spell for the figthers so they won't be useless when Xykon fly) should already get a good chance against Xykon. You make three or 4 dozens, make sure Xykopn can't escape, and he's gone for sure. The problem is wheter Tarquin can find and hire two dozens or more adventurers of level 15+.
That, I have no way to know.

[Toofey]

While I agree that any fight with Xylon is going to come down to fighting Xylon I don't think the collective armies on either side are irrelevant because the more Backup Taraquin has in the actual fight the better his chances and that will in part be determined by how well Taraquin does against Xylon's (or rather redcloak's) armies. That said Taraquin is pretty clearly a decent level jump above the party (I'm gong to guess blind that he's in the same level range as Xylon, which is a good start) although in the individual fight it's going to hurt Taraquin that he's a fighter (or so it seems) vs a mage. (I know supposedly in later versions these classes are better balanced, but wtf is a melee fighter going to do against a wall of force? for instance)

If Taraquin does well enough that he has a couple of dragons at his side when he faces down against Xylon, then he has a decent chance of victory. Even being of similar level I doubt Taraquin has a chance in the single combat this comes down to otherwise.

[Toofey]

Also level wise My take

Xylon, Taraquin:20+ levels I see them both as top line sub bosses (xylon was previosly an end boss, but now that the snarl is in play he's a top line sub boss)
Redcloak, Nail: both of them are maybe a level or 2 above the general level of the party of the stick
The Party of the Stick: I see them as about 1.7-2 Million XP in 2nd ed terms currently. I suspect that they will hit 3 million xp by the end of the story (read that Vaarsuvius will have access to 1 9th level spell by the end of the story)

That's just my guess. That said as I've explained a few places my entire view of things is trapped in 2nd ed.

[Tass]

tarquin could probs assassinate redcloak if he wanted
then ally with gobbotopia
at that point chasing xykon down would not be too hard

It would be very hard.


Stuff

Its Xykon. He is more than just epic. We have no evidence that Tarquin is even close to epic.

[Ancalagon]

Actually, I think any scenario where you sacrifice minions/followers en masse would work.

First, you need to keep Xykon from escaping (dimensional anchor) and you need to keep him anchored (he will probably try to dispell it) until he runs out of spells while killing your mooks.

Giving the mooks Rods of Absorption could help to keep some of them alive.

I guess you could get Xykon down with like 100 or 200 level 1 followers, then you need a few "higher" chars (level 5 to 10 could be enough over time) that finally wear him down.

But again, this is nothing you need an Empire for to pull off.

No one doubts there are tactics to get a caster like Xykon to die, even if you cannot come up with followers of an at least somewhat similar level. But the point here is: it's nothing specific to Tarquin that only he (or anyone controlling three-ish empires) could pull off.

I guess anyone who has somehow access to like 100.000 or 500.000 gp could organise some plan to get Xykon.

All this becomes much more complicated due to his Phylactery. As it seems right now, you need an epic Diviner - or A LOT of luck before you can even think about any plan to get permanently rid of him.

[Morty]

If having a large army and being a clever tactician and politician could stop Xykon, he would have been stopped already. Tarquin couldn't do anything to him.

[Talvereaux]

I would note a lot of the possible strategies Tarquin could attempt against Xykon assume that he knows his weaknesses. As far as I can tell, Liches are largely obscure knowledge in the OOTSverse.

When Redcloak initially proposed the idea to Xykon in SoD, he had no idea what a Lich was. Similarly, during his second fight against Lirian, it was mostly clear by her botched attempts to do any damage to him (slash attacks, lightning, poison) that she didn't know what does or doesn't hurt liches. Darth Vaarsuvius also attacks Xykon with a Chain Lightning attack, though to be fair, it was also being done to destroy the runes.

Additionally, none of the Order was aware of the Phylactery mechanic until later.

As such, it might be a stretch to assume Tarquin knows the most prudent or efficient ways to beat Xykon.

The numbers advantage from sending his army in doesn't sound like a guaranteed success, either. After all, we saw how easily Xykon took care of the Sapphire Guard all by his lonesome (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html) before the Ghost Martyrs entered the fray.

I think it says something that the only scenarios where Tarquin even slightly poses a threat to Xykon assume that the circumstances are grossly in Tarquin's favor, while also assuming Xykon doesn't have his own preparations in motion. Were the reverse true, it'd be no contest that Xykon would win. I'd say either way, though, that Xykon would definitely beat Tarquin.

[NegativeFifteen]

Starting from the top, the first thing to do would get his entire team back together, temporarily ditching the whole Blood, Sweat, and Tears thing. There is no way Tarquin could take Xykon one on one, and a bunch of soldiers would be fodder for Xykon. This also plays on the assumption that Tarquin and his team are of a reasonably high level, we have no real evidence for or against it, but considering how much they must've been through, it wouldn't be unreasonable. Next would be luring Xykon into a location that would give Tarquin and friends the advantage, preferably a location that would prevent Xykon from flying and destroying the place because of it. Tarquin is a smart guy, so he probably would be able to goad Xykon into it. Its also reasonably to assume that given time, Tarquin could arm himself and allies with weapons that would hurt Xykon, given how he told Elan about all of his magic items.

Another, much less plausible, element is Girard. We don't know if Girard is alive, or if Tarquin really knows him, or even the relationship between the two of them if their is one, but if Girard would agree to help Xykon, that could easily turn the tides in Tarquin's favor.

[SPoD]

Tarquin is a member of a high-level adventuring party that is actually capable of sticking to a plan (unlike, say, the OOTS). Xykon is very powerful, but is he powerful enough if all six members of that party attack him? Tough to say, we don't know their levels. But we do know that Malack is on a par with Durkon, so I would say that Tarquin and Co. would have as much chance as the OOTS*, if not more so due to their greater ability to plan and work together.

I think if Tarquin set his mind to wipe out Xykon and use all his contacts and resources to do so, he would have at least a decent chance of winning. But the empires wouldn't have any part in it. It would be one six-man team wearing enough magic items to (literally) bankrupt three nations vs. Xykon and Redcloak.

*Not counting the fact that the OOTS are the protagonists and therefore more likely to triumph over the main villain, obviously.

[DeltaEmil]

The greatest mistake anybody could make is to assume that Xykon is dumb.

[Squark]

Frankly, we don't have any clear idea of what level Tarquin and Co. are (Because we don't know how the mechanics of pun dueling work, and sans puns, Elan has struggles to deal with generic hobgoblin warriors), and in the absence of evidence, it's best we assume they're less than epic level (given that epic level characters are very, very, few and far between). This means that Xykon, a ~27th level Lich Sorcerer, could easily curb stomp the lot of them.


Now, I have figured out a reasonably workable plan to kill Xykon using nothing but the SRD. But we have no real evidence anyone in the OotS world has the feats in question, and Xykon's epic spells could still easily throw a monkey wrench into the plan.


Basically, the idea is to use a Spiked Chain in conjunction with Stand Still to keep Xykon from leaving an Antimagic Field, and using Bull Rush attempts to keep him penned in, while another person uses an adamantine mace to hammer his skull in. The main issue is, while I don't think Xykon knows Disruption, he does know Epic Dispelling, which would work nearly as well (Given that the antimagic field will only suppress an Epic Spell cast by Xykon 15-20% of the time)


So, in short, without access to a party of >20th level characters, Xykon can and will win. And Epic level adventuring parties tend to be in very short supply. For all we know, the Order of the Scribble is the only one on the planet.

[slayerx]

Logic would likely say Tarquin. Not only would his own party be pretty formable, the combination of 3 empires would give him more than enough additional power to take down Xykon... that can be using his wealth to acquire powerful items, powerful allies, or just throwing enough mooks to whittle down Xykon and/or deplete his spells, so that the REAL players can finish him off

Plot however demands that Xykon remain the main villain and as such Tarquin would ultimately loose. True he might score an early victory, but in the end he will loose if he keeps trying to take Xykon's spotlight



So, in short, without access to a party of >20th level characters, Xykon can and will win. And Epic level adventuring parties tend to be in very short supply. For all we know, the Order of the Scribble is the only one on the planet.

no... As we saw Xykon basically lost in his battle against Soon (miko being the only thing that saved him) and he is just ONE epic character. This is in part (among other things) because all those ghosts did a serious number on Xykon... And that's a factor that comes into play, Tarquin has the resources to throw an entire army of mooks of any level at Xykon... they will either whittle him down or deplete his spells making it all the easier for Tarquin and his party to finish the job.

[Zerg Cookie]

The ghosts were also immune to lightning & fire, which are Xykon's main damage output.
An army of mortal mooks will just eat Xykon's low-level spells (You don't need anything past Fireball for that, maybe Chain lightning if you're really into wasting your spells), leaving the big guns for the real show :smallamused:

Even with an AMF and a way to dispel Xykon's flight, he can still blow you with epic evocations (We haven't seen him use any yet, but do you really think he'd take Superb Dispelling before he took some epic boom spell?)

[Gift Jeraff]

Yeah, generic flesh-and-blood mooks who seem to mostly be warriors with slashing weapons don't really compare to mid-level ghosts with Smite Evil. Even if Xykon started to get overwhelmed, he could just teleport away. And even if he manages to get dimensionally anchored, I don't think they could dispel his flight.

But I entered this thread thinking it was talking about who would you vote for, Xykon or Tarquin? Which I think can be an interesting topic all on its own.

[slayerx]

The ghosts were also immune to lightning & fire, which are Xykon's main damage output.
An army of mortal mooks will just eat Xykon's low-level spells (You don't need anything past Fireball for that, maybe Chain lightning if you're really into wasting your spells), leaving the big guns for the real show :smallamused:

Even with an AMF and a way to dispel Xykon's flight, he can still blow you with epic evocations (We haven't seen him use any yet, but do you really think he'd take Superb Dispelling before he took some epic boom spell?)
They have a resistance not an immunity, but it hardly changes things since Tarquin can throw A LOT more at Xykon. I might even suspect that Tarquin might have mid-high level fighters that he's been pulling out of the arena. And he's got the resources to higher mid-high level mercenaries that will not only eat up spells but also deal damage to Xykon

Epic spells alone will NOT win the fight for Xykon. He only has a limited number of spells of such level and Malek likely has more than enough healing spells to keep the team alive through anything that doesn't kill them in one shot; and this is not including what potions and items the rest of the team might bring with them to help keep them alive. Also, being physically attacked has a nasty way of disrupting spell casting reducing their effectiveness. Furtharmore, as a sorcerer Xykon himself is not gonna have a whole lot of HP relative to his level, a few good spells can be really damaging... he may have redcloak and Tsukiko for back up, but with Tarquin's resources it would not be too hard for him to keep them separated enough that they can not heal him.

As for Epic spells, i'm not sure how much he has in the way of boom spells... Seems like Xykon's preference is to use those slots to cast specialized(maximized) versions of higher level spells


Even if Xykon started to get overwhelmed, he could just teleport away. And even if he manages to get dimensionally anchored, I don't think they could dispel his flight.

Running away would still count as a loosing, and the question was something along the lines of who would win... Asking if Tarquin could outright KILL xykon is a bit of a different question and a bit more difficult as he would have to make sure to keep Xykon from running away... this would include Dimensional anchor, dispelling his flight, or fighting him indoors where he can not easily fly away

[Gift Jeraff]

Running away would still count as a loosing, and the question was something along the lines of who would win... Asking if Tarquin could outright KILL xykon is a bit of a different question and a bit more difficult as he would have to make sure to keep Xykon from running away... this would include Dimensional anchor, dispelling his flight, or fighting him indoors where he can not easily fly away
I figured it meant win in the long-term, since Xykon can just come back with all his spells the next day, whereas troops and such are harder to replenish.

Also, I forgot that Xykon would have his allies as well. A single wight can spell disaster for an entire nation. With Redcloak, Tsukiko, the Gobbotopian army, and all of their undead, the whole "overwhelm Xykon like the ghost-martyrs did" plan falls apart since he wouldn't even have to deal with them. But now I just remembered Tarquin would have three empires' forces, so that should help even it out.

[nyarlathotep]

They have a resistance not an immunity, but it hardly changes things since Tarquin can throw A LOT more at Xykon. I might even suspect that Tarquin might have mid-high level fighters that he's been pulling out of the arena. And he's got the resources to higher mid-high level mercenaries that will not only eat up spells but also deal damage to Xykon

Epic spells alone will NOT win the fight for Xykon. He only has a limited number of spells of such level and Malek likely has more than enough healing spells to keep the team alive through anything that doesn't kill them in one shot; and this is not including what potions and items the rest of the team might bring with them to help keep them alive. Also, being physically attacked has a nasty way of disrupting spell casting reducing their effectiveness. Furtharmore, as a sorcerer Xykon himself is not gonna have a whole lot of HP relative to his level, a few good spells can be really damaging... he may have redcloak and Tsukiko for back up, but with Tarquin's resources it would not be too hard for him to keep them separated enough that they can not heal him.

As for Epic spells, i'm not sure how much he has in the way of boom spells... Seems like Xykon's preference is to use those slots to cast specialized(maximized) versions of higher level spells


Running away would still count as a loosing, and the question was something along the lines of who would win... Asking if Tarquin could outright KILL xykon is a bit of a different question and a bit more difficult as he would have to make sure to keep Xykon from running away... this would include Dimensional anchor, dispelling his flight, or fighting him indoors where he can not easily fly away

You do not quite seem to grasp the scope of epic level spells. They do not run out so if Xykon has any form of combat epic level spell the fight is already over period.

If all he has is cloister and the like then Tarquin might stand a chance but that is entirely dependent on how high of a level the spellcasters Tarquin employs are. Fighters are largely a non-issue, as Roy only stands a chance because he is a main character and has a super anti-undead sword.

[slayerx]

Also, I forgot that Xykon would have his allies as well. A single wight can spell disaster for an entire nation. With Redcloak, Tsukiko, the Gobbotopian army, and all of their undead, the whole "overwhelm Xykon like the ghost-martyrs did" plan falls apart since he wouldn't even have to deal with them. But now I just remembered Tarquin would have three empires' forces, so that should help even it out.
Fixed that for you... Tarquin is smart; attacking gobbotopia would require an overseas campaign and many more resources and would likely take many weeks or months which would possibly put his own empires at risk; other nations would likely take advantage of them leaving the continent. Tarquin would likely not be attacking Xykon while he was still sitting behind the walls of gobbotopia, but instead wait till after he has left, when he no longer has an army and will only have a handful of minions.


You do not quite seem to grasp the scope of epic level spells. They do not run out so if Xykon has any form of combat epic level spell the fight is already over period.

If all he has is cloister and the like then Tarquin might stand a chance but that is entirely dependent on how high of a level the spellcasters Tarquin employs are. Fighters are largely a non-issue, as Roy only stands a chance because he is a main character and has a super anti-undead sword.
Even epic spells have their limit, if they didn't then it would be impossible to beat any epic level caster and we can be certain that Xykon will loose in the end... though i would point out that Xykon did not use any epic boom spells even against Soon even when he knew he was loosing the fight

[Gift Jeraff]

Fixed that for you... Tarquin is smart; attacking gobbotopia would require an overseas campaign and many more resources and possibly put his own empires at risk. Tarquin would likely not be attacking Xykon while he was still sitting behind the walls of gobbotopia, but instead wait till after he has left, when he no longer has an army and will only have a handful of minions.
Why should we give either one an advantage? Let's just assume they're neighbors or are both trying to conquer a location equally distant from Gobbotopia and the Western Continent.

Even then, undead forces replenish easily, and we have seen no signs of Tarquin's empires utilizing undead, whereas Team Evil has someone in love with them (even if Redcloak has a strict "no more undead goblinoids" policy, I'm sure he's still more than willing to reanimate his foes and Xykon/Tsukiko have no problems doing so to their allies).

However, even if we guess what Tarquin and Malack's allies' levels are, we don't really know what their classes are, which could change a whole lot.

[Kish]

As for Epic spells, i'm not sure how much he has in the way of boom spells... Seems like Xykon's preference is to use those slots to cast specialized(maximized) versions of higher level spells
You appear to have epic spells (like Superb Dispelling and Cloister) confused with level 10+ spells (like Maximized Energy Drain and Quickened Disintegrate).

[Squark]

To elaborate, Epic Spells have their own spell slots. Instead of having different levels of spells, More Powerful Epic Spells require higher Spell craft checks to learn and cast successfully.


Even epic spells have their limit, if they didn't then it would be impossible to beat any epic level caster and we can be certain that Xykon will loose in the end... though i would point out that Xykon did not use any epic boom spells even against Soon even when he knew he was loosing the fight

Yeah- Other Epic Characters (I.E. Soon). Look at the spells V cast while under the Soul Splice. We're talking about that sort of power. While Xykon might not be quite at their level, he could easily reduce everyone of Tarquin's party to ash with a few spells, and leave them beyond the access of anything short of Epic Resurrection or a True Resurrection by a ~30th level cleric.

No offense, but I don't think you comprehend what epic level characters can do. Epic Level Fighters can carve through entire armies and emerge unscathed. Epic Level Rogues can run up waterfalls, balance on clouds, and other such impossible feats (Including, technically, stealing their own pants without realizing it). Epic Level clerics can raise entire armies from the dead. Epic Level rangers can track something across an ocean simply by looking at the patterns of disturbance in the water. By the time a character reaches 25th level, reality stops telling them what they can and can't do.

[Sarco_Phage]

To elaborate, Epic Spells have their own spell slots. Instead of having different levels of spells, More Powerful Epic Spells require higher Spell craft checks to learn and cast successfully.



Yeah- Other Epic Characters (I.E. Soon). Look at the spells V cast while under the Soul Splice. We're talking about that sort of power. While Xykon might not be quite at their level, he could easily reduce everyone of Tarquin's party to ash with a few spells, and leave them beyond the access of anything short of Epic Resurrection or a True Resurrection by a ~30th level cleric.

No offense, but I don't think you comprehend what epic level characters can do. Epic Level Fighters can carve through entire armies and emerge unscathed. Epic Level Rogues can run up waterfalls, balance on clouds, and other such impossible feats (Including, technically, stealing their own pants without realizing it). Epic Level clerics can raise entire armies from the dead. Epic Level rangers can track something across an ocean simply by looking at the patterns of disturbance in the water. By the time a character reaches 25th level, reality stops telling them what they can and can't do.

I guess the question here hinges on exactly how powerful Tarquin is as a warrior. We don't have any reasonable approximations of his level, since the only opponents he's been depicted fighting are his sons, neither of whom are exactly good at combat, and neither of whom he wanted to kill, presumably. Except maybe Nale.

In addition we may presume that he's some kind of Fighter, since he's wearing Heavy Armor constantly and has displayed proficiency with multiple kinds of weaponry. Thus his key asset in a battle against Xykon would be his tactical genius, not his mechanical prowess.

In addition, I doubt Tarquin will be fighting Xykon alone. Xykon has Redcloak, Tsukiko, and the MiTD on his side. I presume Tarquin will act to attempt to get Redcloak to betray Xykon. This will have the unfortunate side effect of setting off the MiTD's hidden trigger and causing him to devour Redcloak, leaving the phylactery unguarded.

Thus it will be Xykon, Tsukiko, and the MiTD against whatever adventurer forces Tarquin can muster, as well as both sides' resources.

[slayerx]

Why should we give either one an advantage?

Simple, the question was what would happen if Tarquin launched a campaign against Xykon; a fully prepared one at that. And tarquin is smart enough to attack when HE is the one with the greatest advantage... like when Xykon was near his home where Tarquin can make the most of his armies and where Xykon will have less back up.

[TheProfessor]

Tarquin doesn't care about Xykon. Remember, Tarquin's power comes from how genre savvy he is. He doesn't make the same mistakes other villains might. He knows that he's better off letting the OOTS handle Xykon and use the distraction to further his conquest. Tarquin could take Gobbotopia. He's a tactical genius,while goblins are just cannon fodder.

[Sarco_Phage]

Tarquin doesn't care about Xykon. Remember, Tarquin's power comes from how genre savvy he is. He doesn't make the same mistakes other villains might. He knows that he's better off letting the OOTS handle Xykon and use the distraction to further his conquest. Tarquin could take Gobbotopia. He's a tactical genius,while goblins are just cannon fodder.

That's why this thread's title is generally a "what-if". Instead of taking the canonical reasons (or lack thereof) for Tarquin to go up against Xykon, we can introduce other elements.

For example, Tarquin believes Xykon is an end-of-the-world type villain. For what reason would he go up against him? Has the OoTS failed, leaving a civic-minded villain like Tarquin to take up the slack (after all, you can't rule an empire when there's no empire to rule, much less a planet)? Has Xykon killed Elan, the son Tarquin appears to genuinely care for? What are Tarquin's motives in this hypothetical fight?

[TheProfessor]

I doubt Tarquin would fight Xykon one on one. Remember,Genre Savvy. He's seen that movie before. Tarquin will most likely use some wildly unconventional tactic to fight Xykon, like a Fourth Wall Breaker or making Xykon fall prey to the more genre blind flaws.

[Souhiro]

If you say fully prepared, then Xykon is history.

"Fully Prepared" don't mean to carry a huge armor, a kickass sword and a few magical trinquets. Fully prepared means to carry whatever is needed, and that is The Correct Manpower.

Being Fully prepared includes a foolprof plan to draw Xykon from RC and Tsukiko, many mages (With protection from glyphs of antispelling of the throne room) casting antimagic fields, a few paladins (Convinced that this Xykon must be defeated no matter the cost) smiting the Evilness of Xykon, and many mages Scrying 24/7 for Xykons Phylactery, and when they find it, they just Teleport there, Grab it and Quickened Teleport Back, just to enjoy destroying Xykon with the Phylactery is destroyed. (Tarquin is evil, spect some gloat)

And as it can be espected from Tarquin, a Plan B, Plan C and plan D. in order all the above fails.


If something of this fails, then it isn't fully prepared.

[Kish]

I doubt Tarquin would fight Xykon one on one. Remember,Genre Savvy. He's seen that movie before. Tarquin will most likely use some wildly unconventional tactic to fight Xykon, like a Fourth Wall Breaker or making Xykon fall prey to the more genre blind flaws.
Because Xykon is so genre blind, of course.

If you say fully prepared, then Xykon is history.

"Fully Prepared" don't mean to carry a huge armor, a kickass sword and a few magical trinquets. Fully prepared means to carry whatever is needed,
[...]
If something of this fails, then it isn't fully prepared.
No. Fully prepared does not mean "invincible." Invincible means invincible.

[Ancalagon]

Actually, an important point of Xykon's power is there's always a level of force against which no plan or tactics can succeed. So being "prepared" does not have to mean much, given the specific situation.
It surely makes a plan better but it's not a guarantee to win. Especially against a powerful caster as Xykon is.

[Souhiro]

Because Xykon is so genre blind, of course.

No. Fully prepared does not mean "invincible." Invincible means invincible.

Okay, I was lost in translation again. Fully prepared isn't about only the stuff you carry. It's about the companions, the plan, and the setup. That is power. And remember, Darth V arcane power was superior than Xykon's, but in the end, Xykon won.

The way to defeat Xykon is with a cunning plan. But it must be a GREAT one. And we have seen that Tarquin is quite a Xanathos!

[Deliverance]

The main problem, as I see it, is that there isn't anything in the world that Xykon is forced to defend save the combination of himself and his phylactery. There is, quite literally, no single thing you can threaten that will force him to stand at bay.

That significantly limits the strategic options available for a strategy leading to his destruction, meaning that one is limited to overly complex plans vulnerable to point failures in execution or relying on luck or Xykon making a tactical mistake.

Thus I'd say that if Tarquin was to run a campaign against Xykon, sans plot armour for either of them, odds are that Xykon would avoid destruction. He might or not defeat Tarquin, but as Tarquin himself points out winning is all about how you define it and for Xykon winning is contined existence.

[Zerg Cookie]

I suppose threatening Redcloak might work. Even if Xykon seems to ignore it, NOBODY else knows the divine part of the ritual to open a gate.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Tarquin's plan would probably involve turning Xykon's allies against him. Tsu could be subverted by Xykon's lack of feelings for her. Redcloak by his guilt and general impotence.

Xykon's primary means of attack against a peer is to use as many energy drains as he can. Ward against those, but fool him into thinking they are effective and he will blow most of his high level slots. Anti-magic fields (he could likely dispel them, but with a chance of failure) can further neutralize his primary form of offense. Forced to melee, Xykon just has his damage reduction and that can be overcome.

[BadAndyMk3]

I think Xykon would win. He would use overwhemling force with no regard to his own losses and his sole objective owudl be to kill Tarquin. Tarquin wouldn't fight Xykon unless he had something to gain that would be worth the losses.

Actually, I think that Xykon beating Tarquin would be a good fate for him. Especially if Xykon trapped him in one of those soul gems. Tarquin wouldn't go down in history as a legendary villian that was defeated in an epic battle against the forces of good. He would just be a secondary villian in somone elses story. And it woudln't be the last ten minutes that sucked, it would be the rest of eternity. Or however long he's trapped in the gem.

[slayerx]

Actually, I think that Xykon beating Tarquin would be a good fate for him. Especially if Xykon trapped him in one of those soul gems. Tarquin wouldn't go down in history as a legendary villian that was defeated in an epic battle against the forces of good. He would just be a secondary villian in somone elses story. And it woudln't be the last ten minutes that sucked, it would be the rest of eternity. Or however long he's trapped in the gem.

I can see it happening. I mena right now tarquin has no reason to encounter Xykon. But i think it's possible that upon learning more of the gates or Xykon's plans for world conquest i think it's possible that Tarquin might get greedy and go for a bigger goal. Afterall, he could try and make a grab for something like immortally that will allow him the chance to live like a god on earth forever... i mean most methods of immortality have that annoying side effect of making life less worth living... but at anyrate this could lead to tarquin directly challenging Xykon and loosing as the plot so demands.

Or maybe Xykon realizes he needs minions and decides to "recruit" the largest empire in the region... and by "recruit", I mean teleport into the palace kill the leaders before they know what's going on and then gets a large chunk of people to summit to being his minions out of fear... Tarquin effectively gets horribly blindsided by an epic Lich and sealed away. A fully prepared fight is one thing, but no chance at all if its just him and Malack in a sudden attack

[Squark]

The problem is that there are too many variables here. We've never seen Xykon face someone who can match his arcane power and is well prepared. Both Darth V, Dorukon, and Liran all underestimated him, and got their butts kicked because of it.

Liran didn't look up what a Lich is and is not immune to. Dorukon didn't spend the time he had to cast defensive spells to cast Death Ward*, which, while a stop gap measure, would have taken Xykon at least two rounds to disable (One to dispel it, and one or two rounds to realise that Dorukon isn't taking Negative Levels). Darth V... Did about a thousand things wrong.


Meanwhile, we have no idea what Tarquin is really capable of. He's probably at least 12th level, but beyond that, we just don't know. The only people he's fought recently are Haley and Elan. Haley got bull rushed off a ledge before anything could be decided (Which isn't hard, given she has a poor strength score), while without knowing how a pun duel works, we don't know if neutralizing Elan was anything special (If witty banter disables pun fighting, we lose any measuring stick we had. Sans Puns, Elan struggled to kill generic Hobgoblins, after all).


The fact is, though, the only way to really beat Xykon is a corresponding amount of force. Which Tarquin presumably doesn't have access too (Epic Level characters tending to do far more grandiose things, like ruling entire worlds or building multiplanar trading empires. Or just retiring peacefully), and people who do have access to that level of force generally can't be bought (Given that the wealth they gained from getting to Epic levels would be the size of a small moon if converted into platinum).


*To be more clear, he didn't think to have a limited wish spell or two on hand to cast it.

[Kish]

Okay, I was lost in translation again.

I doubt it. I'm still getting the impression you think "fully prepared" is close enough to "invincible."


The way to defeat Xykon is with a cunning plan. But it must be a GREAT one. And we have seen that Tarquin is quite a Xanathos!
If Xykon gets defeated any way but by a great and cunning plan, I hope you remember and eat these words.

[Toofey]

I don't understand why we're assuming Taraquin is personally significantly less powerful than Xylon.

[Sarco_Phage]

I don't understand why we're assuming Taraquin is personally significantly less powerful than Xylon.

We're assuming that because Xykon is a blaster Sorcerer and Tarquin is as far as we know a Fighter. There would be a power discrepancy even if they were both epic.

And if Tarquin were an Epic Fighting-man character he could literally slaughter his way through an entire army without a sweat, just like Xykon.

[Kish]

I don't understand why we're assuming Taraquin is personally significantly less powerful than Xylon.
Xykon is well into epic, and is known for personally smashing armies. Tarquin...was able to defeat Elan in a duel.

Also, Xykon is the main villain while Tarquin is, at best, a second-stringer villain.

[Larspcus2]

I suppose threatening Redcloak might work. Even if Xykon seems to ignore it, NOBODY else knows the divine part of the ritual to open a gate.

Tsukiko does, and it seems that it's written down. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html)

[Incompleat]

He would not attack Xykon directly, that's just not Tarquin's style.

What he would do is deploy (or, to be more precise, have the Empress of Blood or some other useful idiot deploy) a vast array of spies in order to ascertain Xykon's objectives, his plans, his strengths, his allies and his enemies.

Then he would provide (keeping his incognito, of course) all this information to Xykon's enemies, and perhaps to a number of other high-level champions who may be interested in taking down Xykon, plus perhaps some logistical support and a few minor actions of sabotage.

All of this from far apart, of course, without the direct attackers even knowing about his involvement, and with the best anti-scrying measures that money can buy cast on him.

And with the second-best ones cast on some useful fall-back guy, of course :smallamused:

[Earl William]

Tarquin's not one to risk himself unnecessary, the entire blood/sweet/tears thing is an attempt to gain power without adventuring. So, charging off to fight Xykon is not his style. Of course the fact that he's an adventurer who doesn't adventure doesn't say anything good about how much XP he's gained. So, Tarquin doesn't strike me as particularly personally powerful. So, Tarquin would probably try to manipulate Xykon. Hey, try asking the one-eyed brother-less goblin cleric about how well prideful manipulator vs. Xykon tends to go.

[Valley]

Belkar would have a better chance against Xykon than Tarquin and all the forces he got collect in a hundred years. Xykon just would not be impressed by an massive army. He would just kill them, bring them back to un-life, and have them fight on his side.

At least Belkar would have some good one liners during the fight. Xykon might even like Belkar even to bring him back to un-life as a pet.

[JonestheSpy]

Without going into who would win, I just feel like pointing out that it's not at all unlikely that the two might meet sometime. We know that Xkon is heading to the Western continent, and it's not at all farfetched that the Gate might be within Tarquin&Co's sphere of influence.

I also wouldn't put it past Tarquin to scry on Elan after he leaves, and teleport in with his wizard buddy if the OotS gets their ass handed to them by Xykon. As folks have pointed out, you can't rule an Empire, let alone go down in legend as the most evilest warlord ever, if the world is destroyed.

[Squark]

On a more general fact, it's in Tarquin's best interests not to work against Xykon directly (at this point), lest he wake up to find said epic-level lich aiming a meteor swarm down his throat one day. And then spend the rest of his days trabbled in a gem.

[bladesyz]

If Tarquin's entire party had the kind of power Xykon does, they wouldn't need to resort to the kind of subterfuge required to keep their kingdoms.

Some people seem to think Tarquin is of a much higher level than the OoTS simply because of how easily he beat Elan. However, let's remember that this is Elan we're talking about, arguably the most useless member of the OoTS. The only reason he's even worth anything in combat is because of his prestige class, which Tarquin specifically said that he knows the defense against. Let's also not forget that, unlike Nale, Tarquin is a full warrior class. That makes him simply dominatingly more powerful than a bard (even with a prestige class) in a straight fight.

All that is to say, no, Tarquin is not necessarily high level. He might be a few levels higher than the OoTS, or Roy might even be able to beat him in single combat.

[Sarco_Phage]

All that is to say, no, Tarquin is not necessarily high level. He might be a few levels higher than the OoTS, or Roy might even be able to beat him in single combat.

That wouldn't be surprising. Remember what Roy did to Belkar with a wooden sword? Took him out in one big hit.

Roy's previously been shown to be capable of drubbing higher level opponents senseless.

[Dalek-K]

You are limited to "1 item activation per round".

Tarquin surely is "fairly high level". But what is that? Level 15? 18? 21? We do know that Xykon clearly is beyond "fairly high level" (he's 27 or 28+) and that he is, due to his energy drains a VERY able combatant who probaly can get down ANY single opponent with them.
If you want to get to Xykon, you must a) anchor him to prevent his teleport, b) be immune to his energy drains and c) must be immune to his meteor swarms. Then you or your group stands a chance. This is the knowledge you need to obtain or your level does not matter (Xykon has been shown to defeat people of higher level than him (e.g. Master Fyron)).

If you say "magic items", you have to specify. Any opponent of Xykon worth their salt (have some ressources and level) can probably obtain any item or spell listed in any book apart from the most powerful ones and major artifacts.
In what way can Tarquin get "even more"?
Note it might very well be there's not enough high-level adventurers on the entire world that could and WOULD go against Xykon for money.
The order is not sure if there is even a good or neutral cleric in the world who can cast higher spells, Bozzok as the guildmaster of the most powerful thieves guild in the world (Greysky is the thief-capital) and is level 18, the order is "fairly high" with their level 15ish, Miko and O-Chul as the most powerful fighters of the Sapphire Guard are NOT epic (and maybe around level 15)... so there is reason to believe no money in the world will let you hire 4 or 10 level 15 to 20+ chars to deal with Xykon. And that is the level of power you would need vs. him in any direct confrontation. Tarquin has money and power but he cannot make "powerful allies" out of thin air.

What item combination or what persons could he get with his ressources that others could not of they set their minds to it? How is he protected from Xykon seeking him out and simply obliterating him once he got perceived as "annoyance" (not even "threat")?

Soooo epic/near epic level Cleric... Malak or whatever his name is.... Boost his level a bit and good bye Xykon... Plus I'm sure he wouldn't like the whole undeath thing... ;)

So it isn't Tarquin versus Xykon but..

Malak vs Xykon! Winner Malak (if used properly)

[Knaight]

Tarquin is a member of a high-level adventuring party that is actually capable of sticking to a plan (unlike, say, the OOTS). Xykon is very powerful, but is he powerful enough if all six members of that party attack him? Tough to say, we don't know their levels. But we do know that Malack is on a par with Durkon, so I would say that Tarquin and Co. would have as much chance as the OOTS*, if not more so due to their greater ability to plan and work together.


They also look competent, and moreover Tarquin is exactly the sort of person that Xykon is likely to see as attempting to subvert his reputation. Given the fall out from last time that happened, Tarquin is dead.

Xykon is crafty, resourceful, and very intelligent. None of this shows up very often due to his carefree attitude towards life (unlife?), and as such he appears much weaker than he really is. His only real danger is underestimating someone severely enough that they kill him for good before he gets serious, a danger that Tarquin is at least as susceptible to.

[TheProfessor]

That wouldn't be surprising. Remember what Roy did to Belkar with a wooden sword? Took him out in one big hit.

Roy's previously been shown to be capable of drubbing higher level opponents senseless.

Except that he fought Belkar, not Tarquin.

If Roy fought Tarquin it would be something akin to the fight against Xykon on the undead dragon. Rather than face Roy in a fairfight, he'd pull some unconventional tactic or avoid the attacks until Roy made a mistake,then swoop in for the kill.

[TheProfessor]

Without going into who would win, I just feel like pointing out that it's not at all unlikely that the two might meet sometime. We know that Xkon is heading to the Western continent, and it's not at all farfetched that the Gate might be within Tarquin&Co's sphere of influence.

I also wouldn't put it past Tarquin to scry on Elan after he leaves, and teleport in with his wizard buddy if the OotS gets their ass handed to them by Xykon. As folks have pointed out, you can't rule an Empire, let alone go down in legend as the most evilest warlord ever, if the world is destroyed.

That might work.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Sarco_Phage]

Except that he fought Belkar, not Tarquin.

If Roy fought Tarquin it would be something akin to the fight against Xykon on the undead dragon. Rather than face Roy in a fairfight, he'd pull some unconventional tactic or avoid the attacks until Roy made a mistake,then swoop in for the kill.

It would be nothing like the fight on the undead dragon. The oracle and our personal experience of what Xykon is capable of make it quite clear that Xykon could have murdered Roy outright, if not for the fact that he spent most of the time talking to him.

We have seen no such displays of craft from Tarquin. All we've seen him do is disarm Elan. Hell, even Tarquin knows he's a small fish compared to Xykon's plan, so it's a good bet to assume that he's a fair bit less powerful. (as I said, likely around Redcloak's level)

[Dark Matter]

Can epic spells, aka "Superb Dispelling" be used inside an anti-magic shell?

[bladesyz]

We have seen no such displays of craft from Tarquin. All we've seen him do is disarm Elan. Hell, even Tarquin knows he's a small fish compared to Xykon's plan, so it's a good bet to assume that he's a fair bit less powerful. (as I said, likely around Redcloak's level)

What exactly have we seen from Tarquin that would indicate that he's any higher level than the OoTS?

[TheProfessor]

It would be nothing like the fight on the undead dragon. The oracle and our personal experience of what Xykon is capable of make it quite clear that Xykon could have murdered Roy outright, if not for the fact that he spent most of the time talking to him.

We have seen no such displays of craft from Tarquin. All we've seen him do is disarm Elan. Hell, even Tarquin knows he's a small fish compared to Xykon's plan, so it's a good bet to assume that he's a fair bit less powerful. (as I said, likely around Redcloak's level)

We've seen him be genre savvy. That's all he needs to win. How do you think Elan has survived so long?

[bladesyz]

We've seen him be genre savvy. That's all he needs to win. How do you think Elan has survived so long?

That's completely different from being high level. And Elan would have been dead long ago if not for the other members of the order.

[Squark]

Can epic spells, aka "Superb Dispelling" be used inside an anti-magic shell?

Yes, yes they can. The AMF field makes a dispel check as a 20th level caster, but by Xykon's level, he has over a 75% chance of getting the spell through.


To put it bluntly, by the rules of this world, Tarquin can't survive a conflict with Xykon. Not d&d rules, the rules OoTS runs on. Xykon has repeatedly demonstrated that he cannot be defeated by a crafty plan- You need, at the very least, a crafty plan and enough power to match his. An epic level Order could bring this to bear, as could a member of the Order of the Scribble (but both of Xykon's fights with live members of the old Order have been disasters because they both underestimated him. Soon, on the other hand, beat Xykon because he had a reasonable strategy and the power to back it up)

[JonestheSpy]

Xykon has repeatedly demonstrated that he cannot be defeated by a crafty plan- You need, at the very least, a crafty plan and enough power to match his.

Actually, this is completely untrue. We haven't seen Xykon fight against any crafty plans except one - Soon's. (I don't regard the battle plan at the end of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools to be all that crafty). We've seen him beat wizards who underestimated him. We saw him saved by Redcloak from Soon, and even that would have been a loss if not for Miko. We've seen him beat a way-underpowered fighter who had no plan but "buff up and melee". We saw him beat a way-overconfidant Varsuvius with the help of Tsukiko, Redcloak and the traps he insisted be set.

So yeah, I think it's perfectly possible for non-Epic characters to put together a plan that can take Xykon down - especially if they have access to his spell list and are familiar with his common strategies...

[Dark Matter]

Yes, yes they can. The AMF field makes a dispel check as a 20th level caster, but by Xykon's level, he has over a 75% chance of getting the spell through.Get two or three casters to keep slapping AMF around him+RC (putting it back up if and when he uses SD to take it down) and a group of Fighter types could beat them.

Obviously there'd need to be some set up on top of that. A way to lure him in (info on the gate perhaps).

But it *could* be done without access to epic level spells and traps (although the Order of the Scribble was epic so we might see another 'Gate Trap' gambit).

IMHO one the big problems people have had with him is too much solo/one class fighting and not enough team work.

[Sarco_Phage]

To put it bluntly, by the rules of this world, Tarquin can't survive a conflict with Xykon. Not d&d rules, the rules OoTS runs on.

You mean the rules with which a 10th level fighter punched his head off?

[Zerg Cookie]

More like 13th. Just saying :P

But yeah... The same rules that allowed the protagonist to kinda-beat-the-villian-but-not-really will not allow a side boss such as Tarquin defeat the Big Bad

[Sarco_Phage]

More like 13th. Just saying :P

But yeah... The same rules that allowed the protagonist to kinda-beat-the-villian-but-not-really will not allow a side boss such as Tarquin defeat the Big Bad

Well, Roy was lower level then (around 10-11) and even now is the lowest-leveled member of the Order (due to having died). He's around 13-14 as of now, at the very least.

[bladesyz]

You mean the rules with which a 10th level fighter punched his head off?

Didn't Roy have his sword enchanted to kill any undead in one blow? Yes, the sword got shattered, but I think the magic remained. If you look at the comic:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html

You will see that Roy was still holding the sword when he punched Xykon. The magic probably affected Roy as well instead of just the sword.