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Adamantrue
2011-03-19, 04:20 PM
As much as Two-Weapon Fighting or Sword & Shield is looked down on when compared to Two-Handed Weapons on these boards, they stand leagues above fighting with just one lone Light or 1-Handed Weapon. No real benefits to damage, defense, or simple options. It may be stylish, but the game doesn't do a whole lot to help people help.

Something I heard recently had me thinking (and for the life of me I can't remember from where), about only armoring one side of the body, and keeping that side facing the enemy. There would be certain advantages, being less cumbersome while still providing excellent protection.

Setting up something of the sort would a nice perk for a Swashbuckler type fighting with a lone Rapier, though (sadly) it probably would be helpful for a spellcaster that needs to keep a hand free. I wish I could figure a way around that, but nothing obvious is coming to mind.

Still, its doesn't add significantly to anything higher Tier, but would be a nice boost to lower Tier stuff. So I'm exploring the idea further, while looking for feedback here.

*

There are really two ways to approach this. I could make it a separate Armor Construction Option (like Masterwork and Mithral, or Fast-Donning Straps), or I could make brand new Armors (possibly making them Exotic Armors). I'm just going to explore one option at the moment.

As an Armor Construction Option (is there a better term out there?), I'd want to limit it to Light & Medium Armor, with the excuse being that the ever increasing Weight would be too unbalancing. Really, I just don't want to grant an AC that high through Armor alone.

Asymmetric
Price: TBD

One side of this suit of armor is heavily reinforced with additional plates, padding, and the like. The other half seems to be stripped down slightly, leaner and less secure.

Only Light or Medium Armor can be crafted as Asymmetric. It is strangely balanced due to its specialized use. Asymmetric Armor has its Armor Bonus reduced by 1, its Armor Check Penalty increases by 1, and its Arcane Spell Failure Chance increases by 20%. Its Weight increases by one-half.

Used properly, the wearer presents a narrow profile to her opponent, with the heavily armored side facing her opponent. When you are using a Light or 1-Handed Weapon, and not wielding a Weapon or Shield in your Off-Hand, your effective Armor Bonus increases by 3.

You lose this bonus if you are flanked, or immobilized, or otherwise denied your Dexterity bonus to AC.

Asymmetric Masterwork Chain Shirt
Light Armor
Armor Bonus: 3 (Asymmetric 6)
Maximum Dexterity Bonus: 4
Armor Check Penalty: -2
Arcane Spell Failure: 40%
Weight: 37.5 lb

Asymmetric Mithral Breastplate +1
Light Armor
Armor Bonus: 5 (Asymmetric 8)
Maximum Dexterity Bonus: 5
Armor Check Penalty: -2
Arcane Spell Failure: 35%
Weight: 22.5 lb

Golden-Esque
2011-03-19, 05:06 PM
Sorry, I misread your post. I was under the impression that you were making this a feat chain rather than an armor special ability. However, this is still not a good way to solve the problem of Single-Weapon Fighting not being very viable. Again, you're giving up an entire set of enhancement bonuses and special abilities by taking an armor that grants you an AC bonus over using a shield. In addition, a shield adds its AC bonus to your flat-footed AC, while this special ability does not. The shield still comes up on top.

What both the shield and single-weapon fighting really need are several good feat progressions. That is what makes two-weapon fighting and two-handed fighting so good; they have a lot of support.

I am going to try to present this elegantly, but these feats are bad and they don't fix the issue with single-weapon fighting. Compare this to any light or heavy shield. You need to buy a shield to take advantage of the shield bonus to AC (obviously) but you also need to buy a specific set of armor to take advantage of these feats. While you're wearing a shield, you still factor in your armor to AC as well; effectively, these feats give you a shield bonus to AC without needing to actually buy a shield.

The problem is that you can still apply an enhancement bonus and special abilities to a shield. What makes your feat chain terribly underpowered is that they effectively grant you something for a feat that you can get just by spending a little bit of gold. This is the same problem that the 3.5 Soulknife has. You're paying a feat for a mechanic to become fluffy, or in this case, have a shield bonus to AC without actually having a shield. Combine this with the fact that you can add your shield's AC value to your flat-footed AC while this feat doesn't let you, it's actually a very poor trade off before we start looking at requiring a feat to improve your "shield" and not having any of the shield's special abilities.

You're right to think that Single-Weapon Fighting needs a boost. This is not the way to do it, however.

shmeck
2011-03-19, 05:28 PM
This looks interesting. I don't agree that this is "not a good way to solve the problem", Golden-Esque -- it's creative and a step in the right direction. I do agree that a few optimization feats which compare to Two-Weapon Fighting would round it out. As for the extra enhancement bonus & special abilities of shields, you could make a glove or a bracer for the off-hand which grant comparable benefits.

If anything, I think Asymmetric Armor should weigh less than normal armor, not more. I also see no reason to increase Armor Check Penalties or Arc.Sp.Failure chances. Asymmetric Armor feats could reduce ACPs as well.

Adamantrue
2011-03-19, 05:56 PM
This is just the beginning of an idea, so I assume things will look a lot different when its done. Also, I don't think this will solve every problem with the style. Its just a little extra help.

Setting up some new Feats and Equipment to work with this could prove interesting, and in combination probably would do a lot. That's an interesting idea.

When I'm not rushing to get ready for work, I'll sit down and think about this some more, and look at other ideas. But right now, that's all I can really say...

Mayhem
2011-03-20, 06:23 AM
If you want custom armour rules that are simple, you could check out my system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191562)(shameless self plug). It wouldn't be hard to adapt it or use only some of it. It's similar to what you've done already but in a fancy table, just add asymmetric option.

I like your assymetric mechanics. Might I suggest, flanking a wearer of asymmetric armour grants +3 bonus(or higher) rather than +2? Simpler than using an alternate armour class for every opponent. And of course a flat-footed wearer of asymmetric armour would have the worst of his two armour AC scores, which you're already implying.

I might have to add this to my system for the off-chance of gladiatorial combat.

Adamantrue
2011-03-20, 09:11 AM
Thanks. I did check out that Thread of yours, and I could see how you could add something like this to your system. I'll check in on that from time to time.

Now, getting back to trying to make this work better...
If anything, I think Asymmetric Armor should weigh less than normal armor, not more. I also see no reason to increase Armor Check Penalties or Arc.Sp.Failure chances. Asymmetric Armor feats could reduce ACPs as well. To me, it made no sense for me to not increase ACP & ASF, as by its nature it should throw off one's balance & coordination. Likewise, as it has a larger increase of its fortified side than the decrease on the opposite, it didn't make sense for me to keep the weight equal.

I have been trying to figure out the proper balance point with all that. Let's look at Asymmetric Breastplate VS Full Plate:

Asymmetric Breastplate
Medium Armor
Armor Bonus: 4 (Asymmetric 7)
Maximum Dexterity Bonus: 3
Armor Check Penalty: -5
Arcane Spell Failure: 45%
Weight: 45 lb

Full Plate
Heavy Armor
Armor Bonus: 8
Maximum Dexterity Bonus: 1
Armor Check Penalty: -6
Arcane Spell Failure: 35%
Weight: 50 lb

Assuming a person isn't denied the Asymmetric bonus, and can take full advantage of the Max Dex Bonus, they do come out ahead in every way with the Asymmetric Armor except for the ASF (and as it has no real impact in the scheme of things, I'm inclined to keep it as-is).

Mind you, I recognize that in practice, they are still on the losing end. Anything that can Flank them, or deny them their Dex, knocks them back a few pegs. Damage Output VS Two-Weapon Fighting or Two-Handed Weapons is still an issue. And any gains they still hold onto can still be handled better with a Shield, especially when Magic Enhancements get involved.

Then there is all the ways to break the rules. Asymmetric Armor used with an Animated Shield, while a Dancing Greatsword swings alongside the wielder's Longsword gives you pretty good offense & defense, and keeps a hand free in case its needed.

So...the question becomes how far we should take things, from just the Armor end? We could ramp up the Bonuses some more, and reduce the Penalties, but how far? What about adding/substituting traits like DR on the fortified side of the Armor?

BTW, shmeck, special Feats for Asymmetric Armor could be really cool. That's a neat idea. Especially since I'm pretty sure the only support One-Weapon Fighting gets is Einhander.

Mayhem
2011-03-20, 06:35 PM
I was hinting you'd steal the table, just because tables are nice. I'm not feeling so lazy today, so I'll do it.

Sample Asymmetric Armours{table]Armour Name | AC 1/AC 2 | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF | Type
Asymmetric Masterwork chain shirt | 3/6 | -2 | 4 | 30ft | 250gp | 37.5lbs | 40% | light
Asymmetric Breastplate | 4/7 | -5 | 3 | 20ft | 200gp | 45lbs | 45% | Medium
Asymmetric fullplate | 7/10 | -7 | 1 | 20ft | 1500gp | 65lbs | 55% | Heavy
[/table]
Adding Asymmetric property
{table]Armour Name | AC 1/AC 2 | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF
Asymmetric armour | -1/+2 | -1 | - | - | special | +15 lbs | +20%[/table]

That's something for you to play with, anyway. See, aren't tables lovely?:smallwink:

Adding a small fortification bonus wouldn't be a big deal but the way I abstract critical hits is, I assume you get hit in a weakspot or a vital organ. So, critical hitting someone in asymmetric armour could just represent getting hit on the unarmoured side. Keeps it simpler.

Adamantrue
2011-03-20, 07:07 PM
I never really bothered to figure out how to do the Table thing here. I guess sooner or later, I'll have to, so it might as well be now.

At the moment, I have it set up so that only Light & Medium Armors can be Asymmetric. You think maybe I should just make it Light, to go along with that whole Swashbuckling, one 1-Handed Weapon thing? You would still get Asymmetric Mithral Breastplate that way, which could give you protection comparable to Full Plate.

The problem with coming up with additional ideas for this is thematic. Adding layers of durability and fortification goes against the idea of trying to keep things light. Then again, this was only ever supposed to help, not become some sort of miracle solution all by itself.

Mayhem
2011-03-20, 09:31 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot about the no heavy armour thing. Keep it swashbuckler, keep it gladiator. Yeah, restricting it to light and/or medium armour is a good idea.

The problem I faced when coming up with my armour system was overcomplicating it. So in the end I came up with a basic solution that can be applied to any situation, which was just making simple templates to add or remove. That's what you came up with all on your own, and I recommend sticking to it.
Personally, I think the easiest option is just making an armour template that you wear over a light armour, or over medium too. Call it fencing manica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manica_(armour)), or something.

Alternatively, you could make it a "shield." Yeah, I think that'll do the same job since it's exactly what I'm talking about when I say "template." Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/combatFacing.htm#shieldsOptional) to UA shield facing rules.

Adamantrue
2011-03-21, 07:48 AM
If I go so far to just make these things Shields, it kind of defeats the purpose. At that point, they might as well use a Shield for all numerical purposes. Not that such an idea should be ruled out, I'm just sayin'.

Another thought in the other direction...why not let it stack with a Shield? A Shield could be worn on the less fortified side, to shore up the Armor's weak points. Sword & Board tends to be considered sub-par anyways, so why not help them out, and modify the Asymmetric rule so that you can't use your Off-Hand offensively (Two-Handed Weapons or Two-Weapon Fighting, including Unarmed Strikes or Shield Bashes)?

For that matter, perhaps there could be different levels of Asymmetry? Say, Light Asymmetry would give a bonus of only 1 or 2, and have no real penalty. Heavy Asymmetry would give a bonus in the 3 or 4 range, and have a minor penalty (ACP, ASF, Weight).

Really, while Asymmetric Armor would help pick up the slack with one of the disadvantages (once the details are ironed out), there still needs to be advantages to using a single Light or 1-Handed Weapon. That seems like another project for another time (though I'd think it'd involve Acrobatics of some sort).

Mayhem
2011-03-21, 09:53 AM
why not let it stack with a Shield?That's what I meant, sorry about that. Think like a shield is the point I tried to make before I ran away with my own idea.

As for Sword&Board being subpar, well that's another matter entirely:smallsigh:. Throw it in if you want though.

Different levels of assymetry would be cool.

What you could do is make some feats for single sword style. What book is einhander in btw? I should check it out before I suggest another.

The majority of my real life fighting experience has been with a sword in one hand and nothing else. Let me tell you it's the weakest style there is, and woe betide you if you decide to block rather than dodge. However, with some cunning and agility I had some fun with it before upgrading to shield and sword. It was a good way to learn to fight with and against steel weapons anyway. So I think a feat that lets you add your intelligence or wisdom modifier to AC while using singlesword style would make sense.
How about this:
Singlesword dueling
Prerequisite: dodge, combat expertise, Weapon focus:(longsword or rapier), base attack bonus +1
Benefit: While wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand, nothing in the other and wearing at most medium armour, you may add your intelligence bonus to your AC. Any time you are denied your dexterity bonus to your AC, you also lose your intelligence bonus.
Special: A fighter may select this as a fighter bonus feat.

Adamantrue
2011-03-21, 10:24 AM
What book is einhander in btw? I should check it out before I suggest another. PH2, I believe. It isn't spectacular...but its something.
The majority of my real life fighting experience has been with a sword in one hand and nothing else. Let me tell you it's the weakest style there is, and woe betide you if you decide to block rather than dodge. However, with some cunning and agility I had some fun with it before upgrading to shield and sword. It was a good way to learn to fight with and against steel weapons anyway. I'd say being Unarmed would actually be the weakest. Levels of mastery can help compensate in Real Life, but in the game all reasonable (and theatrical) options are supposed to be treated as equal.

And in a gaming environment, they could be. Just gotta expand options, and that likely will be through Feats and such.

Gonna have to break that off into a separate Topic, though. I'll post some more On-Topic stuff later.

hamishspence
2011-03-21, 11:00 AM
Something I heard recently had me thinking (and for the life of me I can't remember from where), about only armoring one side of the body, and keeping that side facing the enemy. There would be certain advantages, being less cumbersome while still providing excellent protection.

Maybe it's a gladiatorial theme? in 40K, Dark Eldar Wyches (who fight gladiatorial battles) always armor one side but not both.

Mayhem
2011-03-21, 06:54 PM
Gonna have to break that off into a separate Topic, though. I'll post some more On-Topic stuff later.
Oops, sorry. But yeah you're right so I figure someone clever could pull it off. I can't do it but I know other people who can. Might as well take it to a fantastical level.

Ah, einhander's a tactical feat. That's where it was hiding.

I remember there were some dueling feats in KoTOR. Ah, here it is;
Dueling: Characters that focus on a single one-handed weapon in battle get a +1 attack and defense due to the efficiency of the style. This applies to melee and ranged weapons.

How about a feat that lets you use feint for a disarm attempt?
Disarming feint
Prerequisite: Einhander, combat expertise, base attack bonus +8
Benefit: After a successful feint, you can make a disarm attempt in place of an attack. The opponent does not get an attack of opportunity and does not get to add their strength or dexterity on the disarm check. All other rules for disarm apply.
Special: Fighter may select this as a fighter bonus feat.
Actually, it could probably be extended to trip as well