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Pentachoron
2011-03-19, 06:51 PM
So I'm going to be running a side campaign from my current 4th edition one in 3.5 because I'm so far not too impressed with 4th edition but don't want to just end the other one short. I'm helping a player who is fairly inexperienced with spellcasters make a sorcerer (He's just going to be too lazy for all the bookkeeping involved with Wizardry.) He really wants to incorporate a similar social setting for magic users to what one finds in the Dragon Age games, (though I plan on having it be just a bit more like Athkatla in Baldurs Gate II.)

Anyway, my question is what sorts of steps should the character take to be masking his spellcasting? I know about invisible spell and deceptive spell, though I don't recall which book(s) they're from.

Also, I'm aware that the existence of divination spells pretty well trivializes the entire idea, so short of mind blank what steps could be taken to prevent it being trivialized? If I just have to handwave it I can, but I'd prefer not to have to.

The party is starting at ECL 5, and all WotC sources are open, everything else on my approval.

Amnestic
2011-03-19, 06:55 PM
There's another one called Ocular Spell which puts the spell - as the name implies - in your eye. It's in Lords of Madness I believe.

Andion Isurand
2011-03-19, 07:50 PM
You could wear a half mask below the eyes to prevent your lips from being read.
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/434/0covert011.jpg

TroubleBrewing
2011-03-19, 07:50 PM
Master Specialist (focusing on illusions) gets illusion spells Silenced and Stilled for free, I think. I could be dead wrong, but I'm AFB right now.

veven
2011-03-19, 07:53 PM
If I recall correctly, Invisible spell and Deceptive Spell can both be found the the Cityscape book. There is also the Conceal Spell casting skill trick fro complete scoundrel. My unseen seer makes great use of this trick and deceptive spell.

Sacrieur
2011-03-19, 07:54 PM
Silent Spell and Still Spell metamagic feats. Eschew materials too.

Boci
2011-03-19, 07:56 PM
You could wear a half mask below the eyes to prevent your lips from being read.

They could still here it, so it probably wouldn't do much, but a genorous DM might add 1 to the DC of the spellcraft.

Infernalbargain
2011-03-19, 08:01 PM
Master Specialist (focusing on illusions) gets illusion spells Silenced and Stilled for free, I think. I could be dead wrong, but I'm AFB right now.

As a capstone, but he'll probably want to do it before level 13.

Amphetryon
2011-03-19, 10:14 PM
There's also Disguise Spell.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-03-19, 10:28 PM
I think Races of Stone, gave some expanded uses for sleight of hand which help masking spellcasting.

Veyr
2011-03-19, 10:53 PM
I think Races of Stone, gave some expanded uses for sleight of hand which help masking spellcasting.
Correct, it does.

Complete Scoundrel also has the Conceal Spellcasting and False Theurgy skill tricks that can hide the use of spells.

If you're the DM, I'd consider changing Silent Spell and Still Spell to Eschew Chants and Eschew Gestures, respectively. The feat tax seems enough to me; increased spell level doesn't seem necessary. If you don't like that idea, though, what about this PrC:

Prerequisites
Bluff 3 ranks, Sleight of Hand 3 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Silent Spell and Still Spell feats.

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Spellcasting
1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | — | +1 level of existing spellcasting class
2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | Eschew Chants | +1 level of existing spellcasting class
3rd | +1 | +1 | +1 | +3 | — | +1 level of existing spellcasting class
4th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Eschew Gestures | +1 level of existing spellcasting class[/table]
The idea here is that it isn't very difficult to get into, but it's not trivial, either - Sleight of Hand is cross-class for Sorcerers, and so is Bluff for Wizards, plus it comes as ECL 4 through ECL 7, so that cuts into any PrCs he's going to get into. The full spellcasting is just because there's absolutely no way these effects are worth a lost spellcasting level.


Another option would be to make Eschew Chants and Eschew Gestures into Sorcerer class features; many people give them Eschew Materials at 1st anyway, so that makes a bit of sense.



Oh, and the best option is just to make him a Psion instead of a Sorcerer. Same spontaneity, even fewer Powers Known, and they don't have somatic or verbal components to begin with.

Andion Isurand
2011-03-19, 10:55 PM
The Somatic Weaponry feat should have listed a bonus to on sleight of hand checks to disguise your somatic components, and even if noticed, make them harder to identify.

fryplink
2011-03-20, 02:37 PM
Correct, it does.

Complete Scoundrel also has the Conceal Spellcasting and False Theurgy skill tricks that can hide the use of spells.

If you're the DM, I'd consider changing Silent Spell and Still Spell to Eschew Chants and Eschew Gestures, respectively. The feat tax seems enough to me; increased spell level doesn't seem necessary. If you don't like that idea, though, what about this PrC:

Prerequisites
Bluff 3 ranks, Sleight of Hand 3 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Silent Spell and Still Spell feats.

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Spellcasting
1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | — | +1 level of existing spellcasting class
2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | Eschew Chants | +1 level of existing spellcasting class
3rd | +1 | +1 | +1 | +3 | — | +1 level of existing spellcasting class
4th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Eschew Gestures | +1 level of existing spellcasting class[/table]
The idea here is that it isn't very difficult to get into, but it's not trivial, either - Sleight of Hand is cross-class for Sorcerers, and so is Bluff for Wizards, plus it comes as ECL 4 through ECL 7, so that cuts into any PrCs he's going to get into. The full spellcasting is just because there's absolutely no way these effects are worth a lost spellcasting level.


Another option would be to make Eschew Chants and Eschew Gestures into Sorcerer class features; many people give them Eschew Materials at 1st anyway, so that makes a bit of sense.



Oh, and the best option is just to make him a Psion instead of a Sorcerer. Same spontaneity, even fewer Powers Known, and they don't have somatic or verbal components to begin with.

I like the Eschew Chants, but Eschew Gestures free on Sorc would make ASF on a Sorc lower than on a Bard or even Warmage.

On the other hand, the PRC would be great, but it deserves a full progression of sorts, a "subtle caster" PRC, wears light armor, the "Eschews" it gets don't cancel ASF though, but instead just mask spell casting. Meanwhile it gets a "Throw Voice" ability that lets you make others think that someone else is casting your spells, and invisible spell as a bonus feat. In exchange it would drop a single caster level or require the Invisible spell feat (and in exchange would make the class ability not extend casting time on spontaneous casters)

Veyr
2011-03-20, 03:55 PM
I like the Eschew Chants, but Eschew Gestures free on Sorc would make ASF on a Sorc lower than on a Bard or even Warmage.
Well, I wasn't suggesting level 1, though that might have been unclear.


On the other hand, the PRC would be great, but it deserves a full progression of sorts, a "subtle caster" PRC, wears light armor, the "Eschews" it gets don't cancel ASF though, but instead just mask spell casting. Meanwhile it gets a "Throw Voice" ability that lets you make others think that someone else is casting your spells, and invisible spell as a bonus feat. In exchange it would drop a single caster level or require the Invisible spell feat (and in exchange would make the class ability not extend casting time on spontaneous casters)
None of that is even remotely worth a spellcasting level.

fryplink
2011-03-20, 08:28 PM
Well, I wasn't suggesting level 1, though that might have been unclear.


None of that is even remotely worth a spellcasting level.

I was more leaning toward the "requiring a feat" option over the "losing a level", but i have a crappy head for balance

Veyr
2011-03-20, 08:35 PM
Invisible Spell is also really problematic, since RAW is vague. Can you cast Invisible Summon Monster? Does it make the monster invisible? Since the effect says nothing about Invisibility (the spell), the monster would even stay invisible, a la Greater Invisibility, because invisibility the status condition does not mimic Invisibility the spell unless it specifically says so.

So... I'd avoid Invisible Spell if I could. I honestly think that taking the Silent Spell and Still Spell feats is cost enough to ditch verbal and somatic gestures entirely.

Again, since it seems to have been overlooked: another, excellent option is Psion. Power manifesting does not have any components, and the Concentration DC to suppress displays is equal to that of Defensive Casting, i.e. a DC every spellcaster should always make.