Bards vs Beguilers

[BiblioRook]

This is something I've been curious about. Both classes are skillmonkeyish with some degree of Rogue in them as well as both are spellcasters (that even have a similar spell arsenal).
Now, I've always meant to, but never got around to, sitting down to break down and compare and contrast the two classes as both seemed to be two of the same degree of something I'm interested in (spellcasting skillmonkey) but always leaned more towards Beguiler for fluff reasons.
Instead though I thought I would save myself the trouble and ask from people who are likely more in tune with this sort of thing and would probably would be able to give me a much better answer then I would likely come up with on my own.

So, what are the strengths and weaknesses of a Beguiler as compared to a Bard? (And/or vise versa)

[Cartigan]

A Bard is a Bard and a Beguiler is an Illusionist/Enchanter Rogue.

[Lateral]

They're pretty different, despite both having Rogue-like elements and spellcasting. Beguilers are more focused on the sneaky, trap-beating qualities of rogues, and have more powerful spells, but don't get as many class features as bards.
Bards are more like social rogues, with powerful social skills and spells like Glibness. They also have bard songs, which make your teammates kick even more ass.
Basically, the two just serve different purposes. (Also, Beguilers get higher-level spells than bards. :smallamused:)

Of course, beguilers make great faces, and bards are great at being sneaky. They both are very versatile classes, but their specializations are slightly different.

[TurtleKing]

A Bard focuses more on party buffing vy its "Inspire X" abilities than disabling/debuffing through the use of enchantments and illusions by being able to cast less spells. The Beguiler having a greater amount of spells to cast can disable/debuff through enchantment and illusion spells.

[Gnaeus]

Beguiler: Gets all spells on list known. Uses INT for casting, so more skills. Advances in spells faster. Gets 9th level spells. Because it gets all spells on list, it benefits greatly from spell-list advancing PRCS.

Bard: Inspire courage can be twinked to an absurd degree. As a core class, gets a lot of splatbook support. Bardic music has a lot of uses, including PRC entry (for builds like Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord.) Diplomancy is way broken per RAW.

[dextercorvia]

Beguilers are better at sneakiness. Get ninth level spells, and have a relatively easy time expanding spells known. They really only rely on the PHB and PHBII, unless you want to get fancy with Rainbow Servant, or something.

Bards are better at buffing, thanks to IC and DFI. Can gish with fair success, and are likely to be better at diplomacy/facing. They also get Sublime Chord, which means they can get ninths and have some flexibility in multiclassing. If you have full splat support, they are awesome.

[Tyger]

May I direct you to the definitive answer to this question, by the outstanding Mark Hall, former member and now moderator of this forum?


Those who are jealous of a bard's awesome quotient frequently dismiss them as "signing". Bards need not sing.

Bards can dance... and with Tumble and Improved Unarmed Strike, they are practicing Capoeria.

Bards can use the drums... and light maces + percussion skill + two-weapon fighting is a nasty-fun combination.

Bards can orate. Don't believe that's effective? Listen to the St. Crispin's Day speech (especially with a Ghost-sound provided orchestra rising the background) and don't get stirred.

Bards can do comedy. A bard who tells puns, inspiring his allies to hit people harder.

Bards can chant, and that's a freaky one. A bunch of dwarves, lead by their bard, each chanting in unison. "I wanna be a dwarven fighter/smashing orcs and other blighters."

Bards can use stringed instruments. Bards with high enough ranks in Fiddle automatically have a golden fiddle.1

More importantly, though, bards tell stories. Bards tell the stories of our adventures, they tell stories about their unending fidelity, and they tell stories about your fighters hygeine that have to be smelled to believe. What do beguilers do? It's right in the name: they lie. Beguilers lie like dogs, and cannot be trusted. They use the fact that Wizards, bereft of any remaining awesome (having spent it ALL on bards), were forced to give beguilers mechanical crutches to get around the fact that they lie and they smell funny. And carry diseases.

It is well known that bards are all fantastically endowed paragons of their gender, while beguilers are lying, disease-ridden deviates... and not even the fun kind of deviates. The kind of deviates that even make Blackguards go "That dude has something seriously wrong with him." And I'm not talking pansy blackguards. I'm talking the kind of blackguards who were paladins until they tasted their first baby and said "Yum. I think I'll eat more of these."

So play a bard. Because bards are awesome. And beguilers cheat at cards. ALL THE TIME.



1Golden fiddle not included. Offer void in certain Crystal Spheres. Consult your local overdeity for details.

In short, the bard rules, whilst the beguiler lies. :) Which the bard also does, and far, far better.

[Lateral]

Oh, there's no reason to have both in the party unless the bard is really focusing on Inspire Courage. They just fit slightly different party compositions.

[gorfnab]

You can technically do both if you can get perform as a class skill for Beguiler (Apprentice Entertainer feat). Beguiler 6/ Prestige Bard 2/ Beguiler 1/ Virtuoso 2/ Mindbender (for Mindsight) 1/ Virtuoso 8. This will get you a decent amount of bard abilities and 9th level spells including spells from the bard list if you go with the suggestion in UA.

[Zaq]

I will also mention that the Bard can be tweaked and twisted to fit different party roles much more easily than the Beguiler can. For example, in my all-Bard game (I do wish that hadn't fallen apart . . .), we had the melee Bard, the skillmonkey Bard, the caster Bard, and the debuffer Bard. We split the roles of "overdrive buffer Bard" and "face Bard" amongst ourselves. Of course, we had some overlap—it's not like any of us were bad at using skills, or like any of us didn't have some useful spells. We just had different areas of expertise.

Beguilers? Well, I find that the distinction tends to die away, especially if you're not PrCing out. The biggest difference comes in how you spend your skill points, I think. I'm not trying to say that all Beguilers are the same, of course. They're not. It's possible (difficult, but possible) to have two Beguilers in the party who only kind of step on each other's toes. In general, though, if I hear a friend say "I'm going to play a Beguiler," I say "oh, that's cool." If I hear a friend say "I'm going to play a Bard," I say "neat, what kind?"

[Cartigan]

Like I said earlier, the problem is assuming Bard and Beguiler are related. They aren't.

Beguiler is in the Rogue expansion tree along with Scout, Spellthief, and Ninja.
Bard is.. a Bard.

Beguiler is part of the school-focused arcane caster breakdown stuck together with the Rogue abilities. It isn't even close to the Bard. Bards don't benefit any more than anyone else from being sneaky or catching opponents flat-footed and they can't deal with traps or locks.
Bards are Bards - they buff the allied party and mess with the foe party.

[Amnestic]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Amnestic/bards.jpg

:smallcool:

Beguilers are cool, no doubt, but Bards are on a whole other tier of awesome.

[ffone]

When I DM and have bard NPCs/enemies, the spells known I choose, and the actions they use in combat, almost always seem to be things from the beguiler list. So I felt that using beguilers would be almost strictly more powerful/dangerous since the spellcasting advances faster and the have the whole list (which also reduces the work in statting one!).

So it sounds like what people consider to be the thing to do for bards is the bardic music and Diplomacy? And is that generally speaking, or only in the context of specific optimization (DFI / Words of Creation etc.)?

[FMArthur]

The thing that they have in common is that they are very, very good at tricking and manipulating people. Beguilers do more of that to enemies in combat than Bards, who do more of it in out-of-combat social challenges than Beguilers. But that's only one small aspect of Bards and Beguilers, whose other talents are wildly divergent from one another.

[Thespianus]

What if you compare with multiclassing options?

I've had the feeling for a long time that a Beguiler/Rogue/Unseen Seer-build could be fun, while a Bard/Rogue/Unseen Seer build seems, somehow, like misguided effort, taking away from the Bard's awesomeness.

[Noneoyabizzness]

What if you compare with multiclassing options?

I've had the feeling for a long time that a Beguiler/Rogue/Unseen Seer-build could be fun, while a Bard/Rogue/Unseen Seer build seems, somehow, like misguided effort, taking away from the Bard's awesomeness.


All too true. Beguiler rogues just seem custom fit to unseen seeralthough dread necro rogues seem kind interesting

Either of those casters need a one level dip and fill in rogue to be seerious

[Thurbane]

About the only thing the Bard can do worth a damn better than Beguiler is his Bardic Music stuff. The Beguiler does casting way better, and is about equal on skillmonkeying.

Heck, with the right PrC(s), a Beguiler can probably do Bardic Music just as well as a Bard can.

[Amnestic]

About the only thing the Bard can do worth a damn better than Beguiler is his Bardic Music stuff. The Beguiler does casting way better, and is about equal on skillmonkeying.

Heck, with the right PrC(s), a Beguiler can probably do Bardic Music just as well as a Bard can.

Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso+8 does casting pretty well, and it gives top level Inspire Courage if you spring for a Vest of Legends.

[JaronK]

Beguilers are illusion focused Rogue type spellcasters who use stealth and deception. Bards are party buffers and social skillmonkeys. They're similar in many ways but in practice they operate very differently.

JaronK

[Chuckthedwarf]

TL:DR version:
I think they are similar in design, both feature an arcane caster skill monkey with a niche. Beguiler's niche is mainly enchantment and illusions, along with sneaking around while bard's is divided between bardic music and limited spell casting.

Beguiler is probably "better" if you like it's spell list and mechanics.
Bard got more flexibility as far as spell choice is concerned, although you can only have a few spells. You also get a whole lot of other abilities - and with Bardic Knack variant, a straight bard easily trumps Beguiler and perhaps, in some situations, even the Factotum as a skill monkey.

I prefer bard...

To be honest, I'm absolutely in love with bards' spell list.

Sure, they don't get many spells - although having wands helps - but some of the unique hard-to-get bard spells out there are amazing, both in flavour and in ability. And there's no real way to learn them without having access to the bard spell list, or finding some bard who can make a wand/scroll of it, which is often not feasible when caster level scaling is involved.

I honestly can't think of any class or feat that would give you access to bard spell list. Prestige Bard don' do it, before someone makes a dumb suggestion like that.

I'm away from books and too sleepy to find more then a few relevant spells right now, but Improvisation from Spell Compendium is one of my absolute favorites out of bard spell list. Gives you a pool of 2x caster level points, lets you use these points to improve a whole range of actions, using up to 1/2 of your level in points (so, at level 20 it'd be 10 etc). The buff itself, I believe, lasts your # of caster levels. It's a 1st level spell, and it can be used to augment skill checks, attack rolls, ability checks on things like Trip/whatever (I'm pretty sure).

There are more, but this is the only spell I can remember fully.

As for Beguilers, I don't mind the class - I think it's great and can certainly be a fun class to play with many relevant class skills and features... Although I find it's spell list too limited for my tastes. Doesn't even have those illusion shadow spells for emulating Conjuration/ Evocation. It's reasonable from balance stand point, sure. But I don't like the fact that Beguiler's spell list s missing too many of my favorite spells.

I'd prefer Warlock over almost any day, to be honest >_<
Or a wizard/warlock/ Eldritch Theurge even. Let peons look for traps!

[Psyren]

Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso+8 does casting pretty well, and it gives top level Inspire Courage if you spring for a Vest of Legends.

And while the Bard is doing that, the Beguiler is going into Ultimate Magus, Rainbow Servant or Shadowcraft Mage.

I'm going with the Beguiler on this one. (Though it is admittedly close.)

[Flickerdart]

Bard has much more support than Beguiler because it's a core class. Among that support you have some absurd tricks like Talfirian Song, which considerably increases a Bard's potential power when the big optimization guns get dusted off. Beguiler only has one option like that, which is Shadowcraft Mage, and Bards can also get in on that through Sublime Chord, if I'm not mistaken.

[Psyren]

Bard has much more support than Beguiler because it's a core class.

This is true, but then again the same is true of Fighter.


Among that support you have some absurd tricks like Talfirian Song, which considerably increases a Bard's potential power when the big optimization guns get dusted off. Beguiler only has one option like that, which is Shadowcraft Mage, and Bards can also get in on that through Sublime Chord, if I'm not mistaken.

You mean cheap metamagic cheese? Of course Beguiler can get in on that, thanks to Ultimate Magus, while staying SAD.

And one thing Bards can't do nearly as well, as I mentioned, is Rainbow Servant.

[Flickerdart]

There's a difference between mere cheap metamagic cheese and early entry metamagic cheese. 4th level spells at 1st level is nothing to laugh at.

[Psyren]

The difference is that Beguilers' insane tricks don't force them to be humans from Tethyr. :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, they force them to be Gnomes which is even worse.

[Psyren]

Yeah, they force them to be Gnomes which is even worse.

1) RS and UM have no racial requirements.
2) Neither does SCM (RoS pg. 121.)
3) Even if your DM is not on board with (2), I'm pretty sure gnomes can be found in most official settings, and even a few non-official ones. Tethyr, not so much.

[Bakeru]

The most basic difference is:
Bards do their stuff in public. They sing, dance or whatever to inspire, fascinate or do other stuff. That makes them either media stars, or possibly even worse, if they hold speeches, politicians.
The beguiler? If he's seen, he did something wrong. Seriously, not being seen (usually) means no dex to AC, which means the beguiler's save DCs raise and he has an easier time piercing spell resistance.

Also, beguilers get glibness, too, so they're just as good liars as bards. And if someone drops Silence on them? To bad, they're spontaneous casters that not only can silence their spells, they all get Silent Spell (and Still Spell) as free metamagic feats. Which also means that they can cast spells without breaking their cover if they're hidden or in disguise.

[Jeff the Green]

Bards are diplomats, beguilers are spies. (Of course, most diplomats are spies and most spies are diplomats.)

[Bakeru]

Bards are diplomats, beguilers are spies. (Of course, most diplomats are spies and most spies are diplomats.)Especially since both bards and beguilers have hide, move silently, bluff and diplomacy on their skill lists =3

Beguilers don't have Sleight of Hand, though, so at least they don't steal from your pockets, only out of your locked rooms and chests!

/Edit: I think that's actually relevant. Bards have Sleight of Hand, but no Open Lock/Disable Device/Trapfinding.
Beguilers have Open Lock/Disable Device/Trapfinding, but no Sleight of Hand.

[thethird]

What if you compare with multiclassing options?

I've had the feeling for a long time that a Beguiler/Rogue/Unseen Seer-build could be fun, while a Bard/Rogue/Unseen Seer build seems, somehow, like misguided effort, taking away from the Bard's awesomeness.

It is actually more fun with Beguiler / PrC Bard / Unseen Seer

And I am partial to bards, although I admit that making powerful Beguilers requires less optimization than making powerful Bards.

[Mirakk]

Made a Beguiler 13/Prestige Bard 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadow Adept 1. (Not in that order, mind you).

That was a fun mix of both worlds

{edited to make more relevant to the conversation)

[Bakeru]

Beguiler ??/Prestige Bard 1

/threadPrestige Bard needs Perform (Any) 8 and BAB +3.
Assuming you use some feat to get Perform as a class skill, you can qualify as soon as 6th level. Otherwise... 13th level is a bit late.

/Edit: Responded to Mirakk before he edited his post.

[Fyermind]

In terms of party roles in combat, Bards tend to play buffers or damage dealers. They have a large selection of buff spells and class features some of which are inspire courage, which can get laughably large. Beguilers on the other hand, tend to function primarily as debuffers and battlefield controllers. Have large selections of illusions and enchantments all of which are available spontaneously.

Obviously PRCs can change this by adding sorcerer like casting to the bard with sublime chord and adding cleric casting to the beguiler with rainbow servant. At their core, the Bard is probably slightly stronger because very few enemies are immune to the effects of their buffs where many enemies are immune to illusions or enchantments.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Beguiler is a much stronger class. Much better casting, better skill monkeying... Even for buffing spells, Beguiler gets haste and a bunch of the other classics.

Bard has a lot of splat options that can potentially allow a twinked bard to look comparable in power to a beguiler (like massive amounts of inspire courage optimization or the Sublime Chord prestige class w/ some other things), but that's just to get on par with what a Beguiler offers out of the box, little thought required. Beguiler just happens to not have a much higher ceiling than it does a floor.

[Jeff the Green]

Especially since both bards and beguilers have hide, move silently, bluff and diplomacy on their skill lists =3

Beguilers don't have Sleight of Hand, though, so at least they don't steal from your pockets, only out of your locked rooms and chests!

:smallconfused: Yes they do:


Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level): Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device.

[Ramza00]

They are not the same (yes you can make them act the same, but you can make a wizard into an awesome grappler that said most people will not associate wizard with a person who grapples monsters for fun), For example

Littlefinger from Game of Thrones is a beguiler

Jack Sparrow is a bard, Thom Merrilin from the Wheel of time is a bard

[Socratov]

If I might chip in (reiterating a lot of what has been said), the two classes look similar, but are vastly different.

Beguilers are a cool class. They get useful and nifty tricks and are out of the box stronger then bards. The problem for me is with fluff: you are the archetype lying rogue. I don't like lying (save for embellishing/witholding the truth), so for me the beguiler, while looking cool, seems a bit contrary to what I value in a party member/hero.

Bards on the other hand are thsoe fun fellows you want in your party, not need, since you can do without, however, if asked you will find people like to have a bard on board. I mean, who doesn't like to have some boost in combat and to see their exploits told in taverns when they are resting.

So, compared to eachother, bards are those fellows you, whether you actually need them or not, include in your group while beguilers would need to get in on a trust basis which is shaky at best (something about lying sneaky sons of female dogs).

As for power, out of hte box beguilers get quite powerful options (full spell lists, 9ths, etc.) while the bard as it is doesn't measure up that well. However, when you go splatdiving/optimizing, the bard pulls ahead. I don't think there is something a bard (or a bard chassis) can't do.

On the subject of skills, a bard will pull ahead. Bardic knack+jack of all trades means the bard can do jsut about anything (only slightly behind the factotum).

Buffing: bard all the way. specced right he can almost outbuff a cleric. A beguiler just pulls behind in that respect.

Combat/lockdown: A beguiler has more ready options for screwing with enemies. A bard has a harder time to do that (needing full casting, or focus on whips/tripping) significantly.

Partyface: Bard has diplomacy and a considerable spell list on social skills. Bard wins

all in all, a beguiler has a considerably higher floor then the bard, even though the bard has a higher ceiling with splats.

Now on awesome, yeah james bond is cool, but who doesn't want to be a rockstar? Bards have the awesome monopolized. All of it. Bards are so cool they out cool fonzie :smallcool:

[Gwendol]

The bard wins on versatility: there is really no area or situation in which a bard can't contribute, even if it means standing in a corner and performing.

[nedz]

This is an awesome piece of thread necromancy :smallcool:
Two years:smallsmile:

[RFLS]

So, compared to eachother, bards are those fellows you, whether you actually need them or not, include in your group while beguilers would need to get in on a trust basis which is shaky at best (something about lying sneaky sons of female dogs).

I wasn't aware that classes defined personality....

[kpenguin]

The Modguin: Locked for Threadomancy