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Seerow
2011-03-19, 08:20 PM
So, we're switching up GMs for Shadowrun soon, and right now I have two character concepts I'm deciding between, depending on overall group comp.

On one hand I have a pretty typical vehicle rigger, with a large smattering of skills, so basically your all around electronics and vehicles guy. This is for if we have a lack of technical skills in the group, he'd be a 'meh' hacker, but would have a large pool of knowledge skills, a few well placed contacts, and great data search, and could hack weaker systems at need. Basically a jack of all trades type guy, with a focus on his vehicles and vehicle skills.

The other one is more combat focused, for if the group has its bases covered. A mystic adept from a village in Amazonia with most of his power bound up in two focii, a combat axe weapon focus, which is used as a talisman geas for his adept powers. The other is a bow that acts as a spell focus, and acts as a fetish for the spells he has. The flavor behind it is he can use the spells the same as firing an arrow from the bow, so he shoots flame throwers, stunbolts, etc out of the bow. It's hardly the most optimal character, but it was a fun concept, and I think it'll be fun to have a combat focused character who doesn't use technology.



But anyway, I'm rambling and getting off topic, the reason I'm creating this thread is because I'm trying to wrap my head around the Rigging rules for if I bring him into play. I've never played a rigger in shadowrun, and I'm a bit sketchy on the details after spending most of yesterday reading through the relevant part of the core book.

1) The book says that control is very important for riggers, but I wasn't able to find where it actually gets used. Does it come into play when you are jumping into the vehicle/drone via VR, or only when issuing commands/using remote control via AR?

2) When controlling a drone, how do you determine its stats? Is it all stats equal to body of the drone? I ask because when you jump in, you use your own skills as a part of the test, but it's not clear what you roll with it. The relevant passage indicates you use the riggers own attributes... but it doesn't make sense if you for example want to use stealth as a drone, rolling your own agility + stealth while in the drone. Similar problems crop up with Gunnery, which also keys off agility. Am I missing something obvious here?

3) I've seen references to hacking cyberlimbs, enemy smartguns, enemy drones, and the like, what sort of skill/programs is required for this sort of action on an enemy? Is it possible to have a setup where allies leave a back door open for you (given personal access to their PAN or something), so you can access their weapons and use your turns basically taking extra actions using their weapons/stats?


Or really, is there just a "Riggers Guide for Dummies" on some shadowrun forum out there that I'm not aware of that goes over all this sort of stuff?

Ranos
2011-03-19, 10:18 PM
I've never actually played a rigger, but I'll answer what I can.

1)Control ? Do you mean a control rig ?

2)
Any tests are made using the rigger's skills and the drone's attributes (substituting Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition).
You also have that handy table on p247 with common actions and the stats+skills you need to roll for autonomous drones, remote-controlled drones, and jumped-in riggers.

3)Hacking cyberlimbs is simply not doable. Any samurai with half a brain will shut down any matrix connection to his limbs. Enemy drones, on the other hand, are remote-controlled, so you can hack them all you like.

Seerow
2011-03-19, 10:37 PM
1)Control ? Do you mean a control rig ?

Sorry, I meant the Command Program. It is specified as one of the programs that a hacker is going to want a lot, and in a quick search I found some people indicating you'd want it a lot, but I haven't been able to find where it's actually contributing.

Though while double checking the name, I think I found the answer: Page 220 indicates when controlling a device remotely you would use control+appropriate skill, with the example of using a repair drone, you'd roll control+mechanics, rather than logic+mechanics. So it seems jumping in would be the better option, but if you don't want to go full VR, you'd control remotely via AR, and use command rather than Response.



2)Any tests are made using the rigger's skills and the drone's attributes (substituting Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition).

And there's the obviousness I was missing. Thanks.



3)Hacking cyberlimbs is simply not doable. Any samurai with half a brain will shut down any matrix connection to his limbs. Enemy drones, on the other hand, are remote-controlled, so you can hack them all you like.

What about the situation I presented, where a friendly allows you specifically as a part of his network. Or for cyberguns? Basically what I'm thinking is if this is possible, being able to effectively use the more technological members of the party as partial drones.

Also for the purpose of hacking, I assume I would actually need to get an attack program, or is that only needed when a drone/node is being actively guarded? I'm kind of hoping it's the latter, where I can get into a node via exploit and the like to get in, but do my damndest to get out at the first hint of trouble, rather than actually engaging in cyber combat. I'm just not sure if this is feasible, or if I'd have to have my deck all set up as a full hacker to be able to pull this off.

Ranos
2011-03-19, 10:52 PM
You're right, Command is mostly used for remote-controlled drones, not when jumped-in. The table supports this as well, with examples such as attacking with a remote-controlled drone with Command+Gunnery, or maneuvering with Command+Vehicle skill.

As for using your friend's limbs, that's beyond my knowledge. I think I may have seen something about this in Unwired. You'd probably need access to their sensory organs as well, pretty hard to aim or anything otherwise. Note that this would make your friend's limbs open to hacking as well.


As for hacking, I believe there are two kinds of hacking. Hacking on the fly, which is very fast (Complex action), but has high chances of detection, and uses Hacking+Exploit. And then there is cybercombat, which uses Cybercombat + whatever offensive program you have. It's all p236/237. I'm using the anniversary edition though, so your pages may differ.

Seerow
2011-03-19, 11:07 PM
You're right, Command is mostly used for remote-controlled drones, not when jumped-in. The table supports this as well, with examples such as attacking with a remote-controlled drone with Command+Gunnery, or maneuvering with Command+Vehicle skill.


I don't see that table in the version of the book I have, there's just one paragraph on page 220 referencing it, which is how I overlooked it the first time through. The major downside I'm seeing here is if you use Command and are controlling remotely rather than via VR, I assume this means that you use your meat initiative, rather than your own? If so this will be pretty useless to me for a while, given I am completely strapped for cash already without worrying about initiative boosting on top of it.


As for using your friend's limbs, that's beyond my knowledge. I think I may have seen something about this in Unwired. You'd probably need access to their sensory organs as well, pretty hard to aim or anything otherwise. Note that this would make your friend's limbs open to hacking as well.


I'll have to grab Unwired from my friend and flip through it then. This would involve a certain level of trust on behalf of the person doing this with though, and while that is workable with backstory, is pretty risky in the 6th world.


As for hacking, I believe there are two kinds of hacking. Hacking on the fly, which is very fast (Complex action), but has high chances of detection, and uses Hacking+Exploit. And then there is cybercombat, which uses Cybercombat + whatever offensive program you have. It's all p236/237. I'm using the anniversary edition though, so your pages may differ.


Looking at the relevant sections, it seems as though hacking on the fly is more or less what I was going for, so basically I'd be looking at taking skill in hacking, while avoiding cybercombat, making me adept at getting into undefended nodes, but anything major I'm going to want to back away from and let the professionals deal with.

Ranos
2011-03-19, 11:28 PM
It looks like the table only exists in the anniversary edition. Guess you don't have that one.

As for controlling drones with command, I'm not so sure. You do use your own initiative to give the orders, sure, but once that's done, the drone acts on its own until the orders are executed, no need for any further input. Issuing a command to a drone is a simple action, and you can even input the same command to any number of drones.

So really, if you have an army of hyperfast drones, one simple action is all it takes to unleash them all on a target. And then, it doesn't matter if you're slow anymore, the drones can act without you.


Ah, there's that thing I remembered from Unwired.

EDIT : Then again, I probably shouldn't quote that much copyrighted text. Well, it's on page 90


I guess it doesn't really answer your question for how to handle the extra actions though.

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-20, 04:33 AM
On one hand I have a pretty typical vehicle rigger, with a large smattering of skills, so basically your all around electronics and vehicles guy. This is for if we have a lack of technical skills in the group, he'd be a 'meh' hacker, but would have a large pool of knowledge skills, a few well placed contacts, and great data search, and could hack weaker systems at need. Basically a jack of all trades type guy, with a focus on his vehicles and vehicle skills.As a person who played a rigger for four months in a row, I can tell you that this can be done easily. I will try to help. :smallsmile:


I've never played a rigger in shadowrun...This will hinder a bit, but I'll try and help...


...and I'm a bit sketchy on the details after spending most of yesterday reading through the relevant part of the core book.As much as I hate to say it, the core book (anniversary or otherwise) is the least helpful book to either playing or understanding a rigger. You can get the gist of playing a Mage from the core book, though Street Magic helps, you can get the gist of playing a Street Sam from the core book, though Augmentation helps, but you almost can't play a Rigger without Arsenal and Unwired. :smallfrown:


The book says that command is very important for riggers, but I wasn't able to find where it actually gets used. Does it come into play when you are jumping into the vehicle/drone via VR, or only when issuing commands/using remote control via AR?It's the program you use when you want to remote control it. An excellent option if the drone is risking damage or destruction, because the biofeedback from those can be unpleasant. Plus, when a Command program is running, you can do other stuff, like run a more important drone, or take cover with your meat body, et cetera.


I've seen references to hacking cyberlimbs, enemy smartguns, enemy drones, and the like, what sort of skill/programs is required for this sort of action on an enemy?You'll want an Exploit program; that's what gets past Firewalls. You'll want an Agent program, because you have better things to do than make the bad guy's suit start flashing neon, but having an autonomous program doing it for you is just dandy. :smallbiggrin: Unfortunately, smart 'runners will have most wireless devices turned off or skinlinked, but it never hurts to check, and some people do slip up.


Is it possible to have a setup where allies leave a back door open for you (given personal access to their PAN or something), so you can access their weapons and use your turns basically taking extra actions using their weapons/stats?It is possible, but since smart runners and paranoid runners are often the same people, it's unlikely that most would knowingly consent to having their weapons (or bodies) hacked. :smalleek:


Or really, is there just a "Riggers Guide for Dummies" on some shadowrun forum out there that I'm not aware of that goes over all this sort of stuff?I've been kicking the idea around for writing one, actually...


What about the situation I presented, where a friendly allows you specifically as a part of his network. Or for cyberguns? Basically what I'm thinking is if this is possible, being able to effectively use the more technological members of the party as partial drones.Actually, that's exactly what you can do... but like I said, unless your group trusts you implicitly, that scenario seems unlikely.


Also for the purpose of hacking, I assume I would actually need to get an attack program, or is that only needed when a drone/node is being actively guarded?Almost every kind of node would have a Firewall program, so an Exploit will be necessary for you to hack. Also extremely useful to a rigger is the Spoof program, which allows you to pretend to be the actual authorized user for the purpose of giving it a command... like, "turn around and shoot your buddy, yeah, him." :smallamused:


I'm kind of hoping it's the latter, where I can get into a node via exploit and the like to get in, but do my damndest to get out at the first hint of trouble, rather than actually engaging in cyber combat. I'm just not sure if this is feasible, or if I'd have to have my deck all set up as a full hacker to be able to pull this off.Cybercombat is honestly not all that necessary for a rigger.


The major downside I'm seeing here is if you use Command and are controlling remotely rather than via VR, I assume this means that you use your meat initiative, rather than your own?That is one such downside to Command... unless you take the "More than Metahuman" advantage. Jumping into/out of drones becomes a Free Action. Now you can jump into a drone (Free Action), at which point it takes on your Initiative instead of its own, jump out of the drone (Free Action), at which point it keeps your Initiative still, and then command it normally.

Cheesy? Maybe. Using it on eight drones so they all act on 30 Initiative? Definitely cheesy.


I'll have to grab Unwired from my friend and flip through it then.I would advise sitting down and reading it, if you can.


Looking at the relevant sections, it seems as though hacking on the fly is more or less what I was going for...Yes. I would also advise Electronic Warfare as a skill, simply because jamming things is too useful a tool to ignore, especially when you can jimmy a jammer together with the stuff from a car radio. :smalltongue:


So really, if you have an army of hyperfast drones, one simple action is all it takes to unleash them all on a target. And then, it doesn't matter if you're slow anymore, the drones can act without you.This. Except for the slow part. Hackers/riggers can be one of the quickest guys around that doesn't use magic. I still recall my hacker character once getting a 50 for initiative.

Happy hacking! :smalltongue:

Seerow
2011-03-20, 06:46 PM
As for controlling drones with command, I'm not so sure. You do use your own initiative to give the orders, sure, but once that's done, the drone acts on its own until the orders are executed, no need for any further input. Issuing a command to a drone is a simple action, and you can even input the same command to any number of drones.

So really, if you have an army of hyperfast drones, one simple action is all it takes to unleash them all on a target. And then, it doesn't matter if you're slow anymore, the drones can act without you.

That's actually pretty nice.



Ah, there's that thing I remembered from Unwired.


I guess it doesn't really answer your question for how to handle the extra actions though.

Thanks. I did get the book and spent most of today going through it. It seems it was mostly aimed and full time hackers and technomancers, with less about rigging, but there was some good stuff in it.

I'm guessing the extra actions thing is something to bring up with the GM if it becomes relevant. Right now I'm expecting it probably won't due to social constraints, but I might find the opportunity to hack some poor schmuck's cyberware and have some fun, at which point the rules become relevant.


As much as I hate to say it, the core book (anniversary or otherwise) is the least helpful book to either playing or understanding a rigger. You can get the gist of playing a Mage from the core book, though Street Magic helps, you can get the gist of playing a Street Sam from the core book, though Augmentation helps, but you almost can't play a Rigger without Arsenal and Unwired.


Yeah the group has access to all of the books, I had already grabbed Arsenal, for the vehicle upgrade stuff, but didn't have Unwired on hand. I got it today.


It's the program you use when you want to remote control it. An excellent option if the drone is risking damage or destruction, because the biofeedback from those can be unpleasant. Plus, when a Command program is running, you can do other stuff, like run a more important drone, or take cover with your meat body, et cetera.


Okay, and you can command all subscribed nodes at once with no extra penalties, right? Like with a rating 6 system, you can have up to 12 subscribed nodes, I assume each drone counts as one, so you could command all 12 drones at once? Or does the dice pool get split like when trying to fire multiple weapons?

On a similar note, if you have a vehicle with multiple weapons, can you use command to fire one weapon, while manually controlling another, or since they're all part of the vehicle, is it a case where you need to use all in the same way?


You'll want an Exploit program; that's what gets past Firewalls. You'll want an Agent program, because you have better things to do than make the bad guy's suit start flashing neon, but having an autonomous program doing it for you is just dandy. Unfortunately, smart 'runners will have most wireless devices turned off or skinlinked, but it never hurts to check, and some people do slip up.


On that note, how do agents work? I understand they follow simple direction from you and do computerized actions on their own. So say I tell a rating 5 agent to, using your example, hack the bad guy's suit and make it start flashing neon. It would need to first scan for the node, then hack the node, then spoof the command. If I recall correctly, it uses your commlink's programs, and only you or the agent can use a given program at a given time, you can't both access it at once. So does it then roll agent rating + program rating, or does it roll command + program rating, or command + agent rating?



I've been kicking the idea around for writing one, actually...


Well you probably should, I spent a good hour or so on google trying to find something of the sort, and generally only found advice given to a specific person, similar to this thread, nothing comprehensive explaining how your various things interract, what skills and attributes are important to you, etc.


Cybercombat is honestly not all that necessary for a rigger.


Okay, that was the main thing I was worried about. Basic hacking isn't too bad or time consuming in game, but once it delves into cybercombat, things get bogged down and other players get annoyed, so like I said I'm trying to avoid it.


That is one such downside to Command... unless you take the "More than Metahuman" advantage. Jumping into/out of drones becomes a Free Action. Now you can jump into a drone (Free Action), at which point it takes on your Initiative instead of its own, jump out of the drone (Free Action), at which point it keeps your Initiative still, and then command it normally.

Cheesy? Maybe. Using it on eight drones so they all act on 30 Initiative? Definitely cheesy.

30 initiative? Are you playing where you add up the result of all of your initiative dice or something? We generally just roll and count hits, and in that system rolling a 30 would be ridiculous.

Also, I thought you only get one free action per pass, so you couldn't jump into that many drones in one turn, even with that quality.


Yes. I would also advise Electronic Warfare as a skill, simply because jamming things is too useful a tool to ignore, especially when you can jimmy a jammer together with the stuff from a car radio.


Yeah I had already invested some into the electronic warfare skill, since starting this thread I've expanded that to the cracking group, with a couple extra points invested in Electronic Warfare.

Kaun
2011-03-20, 06:49 PM
You'll want an Exploit program; that's what gets past Firewalls. You'll want an Agent program, because you have better things to do than make the bad guy's suit start flashing neon, but having an autonomous program doing it for you is just dandy. :smallbiggrin: Unfortunately, smart 'runners will have most wireless devices turned off or skinlinked, but it never hurts to check, and some people do slip up.

Just thinking on this.

To stop this kind of hack you would have to run two completely different PAN's which could be difficult when it comes to your visual interface.

Because correct me if im wrong but even with skinlink if a device is part of a PAN with an active wireless conection in it then it can be theoreticlly hacked via outside sources.

While turning off all your wireless conections prevents this it all so means you are cut off from any incoming communications which seems slightly foolish in most situations.

Now where my knowledge falls short is interacting with multiple PAN's at once. i mean the easy option is do all your external comms through a separate comm link but that will likely have to be opperated by hand which means your hand isnt free to do other things which could be a negative.

Ranos
2011-03-20, 06:54 PM
According to Unwired, while internal implants can sometimes be accessed in such a way (but you have to be extremely close to receive the signal, which is used mostly for medical diagnostics and such), cyberlimbs are generally hardwired.

You would have to get a direct wired connection to the guy's arm through an access port to hack it.

Kaun
2011-03-20, 07:06 PM
According to Unwired, while internal implants can sometimes be accessed in such a way (but you have to be extremely close to receive the signal, which is used mostly for medical diagnostics and such), cyberlimbs are generally hardwired.

You would have to get a direct wired connection to the guy's arm through an access port to hack it.

That makes a certain ammount of sense for movement controlls ect but if you have a smartlink run through a cyber arm or a data feed/monitoring system synced up to a visual display which is all so linked to a comlink with an active wireless link the pathways are all there.

I am at no time saying it would be easy but it can't see why it isnt possible. I mean taking away full motor control of the arm would be a nightmare to do in a pinch especially if your attacking a pricy bit of equipment with a highly encrypted OS but trigering a smartgun link to expel a clip doesn't sound to far outside what hackers achieve in your average run?

Science Officer
2011-03-20, 07:15 PM
You would have to get a direct wired connection to the guy's arm through an access port to hack it.

I think there's some nasty-nanites in... uh... Augmentation? that are designed for this. Just give him a spray with an aerosol can and proceed with the "Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!"

Dr.Gunsforhands
2011-03-20, 07:17 PM
On getting extra actions from hacking limbs: that specific avenue is probably impractical, but you CAN saddle your friends with drones or mini-turrets or something for you to use.

Alternately, you can convince them to turn their wireless on, then load everyone's PAN with enough IC to make a would-be attacker's commlink do this (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004167).

Kaun
2011-03-20, 07:23 PM
I think there's some nasty-nanites in... uh... Augmentation? that are designed for this. Just give him a spray with an aerosol can and proceed with the "Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!"

I can't put that kind of tech in any game with my players.

Ranos
2011-03-20, 07:28 PM
I think there's some nasty-nanites in... uh... Augmentation? that are designed for this. Just give him a spray with an aerosol can and proceed with the "Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!"

I know a technomancer who's going to be a happy, happy boy. Now to find those nanites... :smallcool:

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-20, 07:40 PM
Okay, and you can command all subscribed nodes at once with no extra penalties, right? Like with a rating 6 system, you can have up to 12 subscribed nodes, I assume each drone counts as one, so you could command all 12 drones at once? Or does the dice pool get split like when trying to fire multiple weapons?As long as it's the same sort of command. And no penalty for doing so, AFAIK. :smallsmile:


On a similar note, if you have a vehicle with multiple weapons, can you use command to fire one weapon, while manually controlling another, or since they're all part of the vehicle, is it a case where you need to use all in the same way?I'm assuming by "manually" controlling, you don't mean rigging it, but rather that someone's using his meat body to point the vehicle-mounted gun around and fire it? Yeah, if it's on manual like that (assuming it even has the option for automatic), whoever's firing it can fire independently of the Command program.


On that note, how do agents work? I understand they follow simple direction from you and do computerized actions on their own. So say I tell a rating 5 agent to, using your example, hack the bad guy's suit and make it start flashing neon. It would need to first scan for the node, then hack the node, then spoof the command. If I recall correctly, it uses your commlink's programs...This is all correct.


...and only you or the agent can use a given program at a given time, you can't both access it at once.Not true, if you load it as part of the agent's suite. Still counts against your ability to keep programs running.


So does it then roll agent rating + program rating, or does it roll command + program rating, or command + agent rating?The first.


Well you probably should, I spent a good hour or so on google trying to find something of the sort, and generally only found advice given to a specific person, similar to this thread, nothing comprehensive explaining how your various things interract, what skills and attributes are important to you, etc.Now I feel guilty... :smallfrown:


Okay, that was the main thing I was worried about. Basic hacking isn't too bad or time consuming in game, but once it delves into cybercombat, things get bogged down and other players get annoyed, so like I said I'm trying to avoid it.Well, and this is just me talking out my rear here, but as a rigger, hacking is one of your roles. It's one of your lesser roles, usually, but it's going to come up. More often, your most efficient solution to a problem is, "deploy some kind of drone at it." Following that? Jamming or intercepting stuff. Following that? Security, both wireless and physical. If the group actually has a dedicated hacker, your own hacking will fall somewhere around "Security" rung on priorities; if the group doesn't, it'll be on par with th e "Jamming" rung.

Heck, though, even as a hacker, cybercombat isn't too necessary; I mean, it's fine and dandy for crashing programs, but you know what can do that for you? Agents. :smallamused:


30 initiative? Are you playing where you add up the result of all of your initiative dice or something? We generally just roll and count hits, and in that system rolling a 30 would be ridiculous.Actually, what you're supposed to do is add up all your initiative dice, roll them, and then add the hits to the original total.


Also, I thought you only get one free action per pass, so you couldn't jump into that many drones in one turn, even with that quality.The rules, IIRC (it has been months) don't actually restrict you on how many free actions you can perform; it just tells you to use common sense. While it does seem a tad silly, jumping into and out of a bunch of drones in a fraction of a second, you can probably manage giving one drone per pass such a treatment without suspension of disbelief. :smallamused:


Just thinking on this.

To stop this kind of hack you would have to run two completely different PAN's which could be difficult when it comes to your visual interface.Indeed.


Because correct me if im wrong but even with skinlink if a device is part of a PAN with an active wireless conection in it then it can be theoretically hacked via outside sources.That's right; that's why some runners keep their important stuff slaved to an encrypted internal commlink, maybe even broadcasting via a nonstandard wireless link. Short range on your wireless signal helps in that department as well.


Now where my knowledge falls short is interacting with multiple PAN's at once. i mean the easy option is do all your external comms through a separate comm link but that will likely have to be opperated by hand which means your hand isnt free to do other things which could be a negative.It talks about it more in Unwired; it can be done, but it's quite difficult to operate two PANs at the same time.


I mean taking away full motor control of the arm would be a nightmare to do in a pinch especially if your attacking a pricy bit of equipment with a highly encrypted OS but trigering a smartgun link to expel a clip doesn't sound too far outside what hackers achieve in your average run?Doesn't seem at all outside the scope of a runner's capabilities, provided his opponents don't know all the tricks he has available up his sleeve.

Kaun
2011-03-20, 08:04 PM
I always enjoy your mega quote posts count but damned if there not a pain to requote :smalltongue:



That's right; that's why some runners keep their important stuff slaved to an encrypted internal commlink, maybe even broadcasting via a nonstandard wireless link. Short range on your wireless signal helps in that department as well.

I can see how the nonstandard commlink helps but my only issue is when you get into high end security doesn't nonstandard become the standard?

It would seem to me that the best defence for this kind of attack (if you had any heads up that it would be a possibility that is) and thats if running your cyberware PAN with out an active wireless conection wasn't an option would be as follows;

Once your situation goes "hot", boot up a bunch of indipendant commlinks with non identical false systems designed to look like they are running your rig.

It would be an expensive option and would require prior knowledge and some warning but it would basiclly generate an electronic version of mirror image vs hacker types.



It talks about it more in Unwired; it can be done, but it's quite difficult to operate two PANs at the same time.

yeah i need to sit down with this one again, too many books not enough hours!

Dr.Gunsforhands
2011-03-20, 08:10 PM
On agents!

My conception of the idea is that an agent can only use a program that you "load" into it. An agent can hold a number of programs equal to its rating at a time, and the programs cannot have a higher rating than the agent.

Agents, Autopilots, and IC are all basically the same thing - AI programs that use other programs to try and follow scripts written by the user. My group had trouble telling the three apart, but it might be a good idea to at least keep the autopilot separate since the decision-making process is so different for the kinds of instructions it will be taking.

If you do not have the patience to spell out what you want the agent to do in a given situation, the GM decides what it should do if it runs into an unusual situation, or just ask if it's a particularly common one. ("Hey, what would you have wanted the agent to do if it couldn't get in on the first try?")

Generally, I think that agents are as dumb as you would expect a computer to be and deal with unusual situations by either ignoring them or crashing unless you've specified otherwise. Now a technomancer's sprites, on the other hand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL411LmXi_w&feature=fvwrel)...

Seerow
2011-03-20, 08:18 PM
I'm assuming by "manually" controlling, you don't mean rigging it, but rather that someone's using his meat body to point the vehicle-mounted gun around and fire it? Yeah, if it's on manual like that (assuming it even has the option for automatic), whoever's firing it can fire independently of the Command program.


Well I was referring to jumping in. Like say you have a bulldog with a heavy turret mounted with some big vehicle weapon, and 2 other concealed weapon mounts with your typical light machine gun.

Presumably, jumping in and trying to fire all 3 will require you to split dice pools as if you were wielding multiple weapons normally. But could you instead choose to only specifically fire the heavy turret, and use command and the vehicles targetting, or agents, to fire the other weapons, or is that not possible since you're jumped into the vehicle, and you'd have to have it set up so other party members could fire them from within the vehicle?


Not true, if you load it as part of the agent's suite. Still counts against your ability to keep programs running.


Good to know


The first.


As is this. It means even with crap for hacking skill, you can get a rating 5-6 agent and be an awesome hacker.

Really, doesn't this make it so that anyone with some money to throw at it could be an awesome hacker? Just get a rating 6 agent, and a souped up cyberdeck, and go to town. Your own stats and skills don't ever come into the picture.

The more I think about it, the more I like the optional rule from the start of unwired to use Logic instead of program ratings, with program ratings as your maximum successes.


Now I feel guilty...


No need for that, just saying that there is a distinct lack of such resources for shadowrun, particularly for this role. Such a guide would certainly fill a void, and would be useful to a lot of people.

Ranos
2011-03-20, 08:23 PM
It's the same with any other skill, really. Skillwires. Knowsofts.
Enough money, and you don't need skills anymore. Until something goes wrong and then you do, I guess. You're going to need a damn good agent and programs to be the equal of an actual, skilled hacker though.

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-20, 08:30 PM
I can see how the nonstandard commlink helps but my only issue is when you get into high end security doesn't nonstandard become the standard?Oops, yeah, I meant that their non-implanted commlink would be running nonstandard, and their implanted one would have the wireless turned off and have everything skinlinked. My bad. :smallredface:

Seerow
2011-03-20, 08:36 PM
It's the same with any other skill, really. Skillwires. Knowsofts.
Enough money, and you don't need skills anymore. Until something goes wrong and then you do, I guess. You're going to need a damn good agent and programs to be the equal of an actual, skilled hacker though.

Difference is skillwires cost essence. A lot of characters can't afford losing 1.2 essence, or even the .6 if they're willing to throw 120k nuyen at it. And even then, you use your own stats with skillwires, so if you have crap for agility, you're still not going to be great in combat even with skill wires.

With hacking, a rating 6 Agent is only 15k nuyen, and a commlink decked out with all rating 6 programs is ~130k nuyen, but you can get a pretty good one (necessary programs at 5-6 with lesser used programs at 1-3) for 70k or so. Between the two you are throwing 10-12 dice at any given hacking test, a dedicated hacker at best is going to be getting 1 or 2 extra dice that you can't replicate with more money being thrown at it. And that is going to require karma/quality investment to get hacking past 6. And it's still going to be better than your standard starting character unless he's hyperspecializing as a hacker.

Science Officer
2011-03-20, 08:46 PM
I know a technomancer who's going to be a happy, happy boy. Now to find those nanites... :smallcool:

they're on page 116, and aren't exactly as I remember. they come in a sticky gel, so probably no aresol (but they still have inhalation listed as a possible vector). And they're aren't just auto-matic hackers. But on the other hand one variant can turn on the wireless connection to either connect to a specific node, or to "universal connection" or something like that.
one step at a time, I guess.

Kaun
2011-03-20, 08:46 PM
But a hacker who relys on bought software over actual skill is basicly just a script kid.

They will be well geared up to walk over the basics but when things leave the beaten path wont they come unstuck?

I mean if one of there agent programs is unable to perform a set task the all money no skill hacker won't actually be able to tell why because when it comes down to it they dont really know how the programs they are using work on anything but the most basic scale.

Ranos
2011-03-20, 08:51 PM
True. Well, 70K does seem like a lot to me, but that may be because we're poor as hell (we deserved it though - we trusted a goddamn dragon).
But yeah, it is kind of easy to become a super script-kiddie. I guess with those 70K, the actual hacker buys something that makes him a bit better at hacking, but still.

Seerow
2011-03-20, 08:52 PM
But a hacker who relys on bought software over actual skill is basicly just a script kid.

They will be well geared up to walk over the basics but when things leave the beaten path wont they come unstuck?

I mean if one of there agent programs is unable to perform a set task the all money no skill hacker won't actually be able to tell why because when it comes down to it they dont really know how the programs they are using work on anything but the most basic scale.

That comes down to GM adjucation, doesn't it? I don't see anything in the books actually indicating you need hacking skill to be able to give the agents better direction, you just give it direction and let it go, its pilot then takes over. You can even get it the adaptability autosoft if you're really worried about it, so you have justification for expecting the agent to figure out how to deal with strange scenarios on its own.



True. Well, 70K does seem like a lot to me, but that may be because we're poor as hell (we deserved it though - we trusted a goddamn dragon).
But yeah, it is kind of easy to become a super script-kiddie. I guess with those 70K, the actual hacker buys something that makes him a bit better at hacking, but still.

The hacker had to spend the same 70k to get his commlink tricked out. The hacker is in reality probably spending more than that, aiming for the full rating 6 commlink, and possibly also going for the extra program options (I didn't look over those too closely, but I'm sure they could help)

And yeah, 70k is a lot of money. I have that on my current char (pre GM switch) but that's because I haven't really spent any nuyen since game start (probably a mistake on my part, but whatever). But I'd imagine any group could pool together for that if they were short a hacker, rather than having to cut in an extra person or NPC on any run that requires one. This goes back to the issue of how much your party trusts each other, but I'd imagine this would be easier to swallow than leaving a back door open for the rigger jumping into your cyberarm)

Ranos
2011-03-20, 08:57 PM
That comes down to GM adjucation, doesn't it? I don't see anything in the books actually indicating you need hacking skill to be able to give the agents better direction, you just give it direction and let it go, its pilot then takes over. You can even get it the adaptability autosoft if you're really worried about it, so you have justification for expecting the agent to figure out how to deal with strange scenarios on its own.
I don't think there's anything in the rules about it. It's basically the same thing, and the agent will probably be advanced enough to report in clear terms, or with 3D, video-game like visualisation.

Seerow
2011-03-20, 09:18 PM
I don't think there's anything in the rules about it. It's basically the same thing, and the agent will probably be advanced enough to report in clear terms, or with 3D, video-game like visualisation.


That's kind of what I figured, which is where I'm left trying to figure out why you would think that agents would be rendered useless in any situation. Worst case scenario you need to reload the agent with a different set of programs to deal with a situation, but that happens even if you're the one hacking.

Now I can understand if your GM says your characters dont have enough knowledge to know what programs to load your agent with to achieve optimal results, but my point is there's nothing in the rules to support this.

The closest thing I can find is an optional rule on page 214 of my version of the book, that has the GM roll a Pilot+Response test to see if the agent can understand complex orders. Given a rating 6 agent with rating 3 adaptability would be rolling something like 15 dice on such a test unless I'm mistaken, I don't imagine that being a major problem. And that's still just an optional rule.

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-20, 10:22 PM
Pretty much the only two reasons to not use agents to do stuff for you is, one, if your commlink doesn't have enough processing power to handle the agent and its software package on top of your normal program load (in which case you're not the hacker), or two, because if you build your character right, you can do stuff better than they can. If you haven't, go ahead and run wild with 'em. Even if you have built your character that way, do it anyway, just not when it's crucial. Or have 'em running autonomously on a commlink slaved to yours.

Heck, for convenience's sake, my rigger had a rating 6 Fetch module that he set up to listen in on speech and run Data Searches on what the context of the conversation suggested were names, places, events, or otherwise words given special emphasis.

If you're really worried about your agent not understanding a situation it might run into, go ahead and write its script - it also makes adjudicating these things easier for the GM. :smallcool:

Seerow
2011-03-20, 10:40 PM
Pretty much the only two reasons to not use agents to do stuff for you is, one, if your commlink doesn't have enough processing power to handle the agent and its software package on top of your normal program load (in which case you're not the hacker), or two, because if you build your character right, you can do stuff better than they can. If you haven't, go ahead and run wild with 'em. Even if you have built your character that way, do it anyway, just not when it's crucial. Or have 'em running autonomously on a commlink slaved to yours.


Yeah, in my case, I was building the character for rigging, and to be a jack of all trades. I have a ton of skills sitting around 1-3, with only a few things going beyond that, that includes my cracking skill group, which is sitting at a 2. With a rating 5-6 program, it's certainly enough to get by, but really when you can throw another 15,000 nuyen at it to get an extra 4 dice, why not?

Yes, someone who is dedicated to hacking with a cracking group of 4, and hacking separated out and increased to 6, and a reflex recorder/codeslinger quality/aptitude quality getting you up to 8-9, will do better than the agent. Yet even with all of that, they're sitting maybe 3 dice over what the agent has. Skill specializations can get you another 2 dice in specific circumstances, but isn't anywhere near as potent as specialization as a caster or gunslinger is. But if you don't want to make that huge investment, you can get a close proximity without it, with a small nuyen investment which is really pretty nice.

It both helps the current character I'm building, and in the future is good to know, because if we run into a situation where nobody wants to play a hacker, the whole group can kick in 10-15k nuyen each, and we get ourselves a personal mid grade hacker.



My only problem with it is that it doesn't really make logical sense that this is possible. Like I said, this is why I think that the rule in unwired where you use your logic instead, and limit successes based on program rating, is a better rule. I need to check with my GM if that will be used, and if so how you would determine the logic of an agent. Further tinkering may also be ideal, but I think I want to play around with it in game a bit before trying to homebrew any major changes to the system.

Kaun
2011-03-21, 12:18 AM
That comes down to GM adjucation, doesn't it? I don't see anything in the books actually indicating you need hacking skill to be able to give the agents better direction, you just give it direction and let it go, its pilot then takes over. You can even get it the adaptability autosoft if you're really worried about it, so you have justification for expecting the agent to figure out how to deal with strange scenarios on its own.

Let me do some reading and i will get back to you.

But from a GM's point of view if you were using "store" bought programs with no idea how they actually work then you would pay for it in the long run.

Because being "store" bought it means theoreticlly anybody can get their hands on it and as its built by a person it means it can theroeticlly be broken by a person. So by my reasoning if you are solely reliant on top of the line software you have to hope that any advisary you face doesnt understand the software you are using at a level equal to or better then the person who wrote it.

Slade
2011-03-23, 02:48 AM
As a person who played a rigger for four months in a row, I can tell you that this can be done easily. I will try to help. :smallsmile:

Ah, memories.


As much as I hate to say it, the core book (anniversary or otherwise) is the least helpful book to either playing or understanding a rigger. You can get the gist of playing a Mage from the core book, though Street Magic helps, you can get the gist of playing a Street Sam from the core book, though Augmentation helps, but you almost can't play a Rigger without Arsenal and Unwired. :smallfrown:

Soooo true. A rigger can be... ok with just the core book, or he can DOMINATE with Arsenal and Unwired, especially Unwired.


Cheesy? Maybe. Using it on eight drones so they all act on 30 Initiative? Definitely cheesy.


Ah, more memories.