Dragonwrought's with Alter Self [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Milo v3

2011-03-19, 11:21 PM

When a kobold takes the DragonWrought feat, they swap their Humanoid type for the Dragon Type.
Now if I give the kobold the Alter Self spell, is their any way it can take the form of a human?

Or any way I could allow the kobold to break the rule without it being overpowered.

Daftendirekt

2011-03-19, 11:23 PM

Humans are humanoid, Dragonwrought kobolds are dragon. So... no.

dextercorvia

2011-03-19, 11:24 PM

You do realize you can turn into a Pseudodragon, and get a Fly speed of Yes!

Edit: I think you could turn into a Half-Dragon Human. Nope, I had to check, but no templates.

Milo v3

2011-03-19, 11:41 PM

The Type parts the problem. I just noticed the problem and now I need to think of a way it might work.

It was so the kobold could blend-in with society and not get stabbed for walking into a town of ignorant human-like people.

Is their a creature with the dragon type which looks human? Other than that I can't think of anything.

Psyren

2011-03-19, 11:44 PM

How about illusions? Polymorph?

Milo v3

2011-03-19, 11:47 PM

How about illusions? Polymorph?

The kobold is only a level 5 sorcerer so he can't cast polymorph.
What illusion spells do you have in mind?:smallconfused:

Psyren

2011-03-19, 11:56 PM

The kobold is only a level 5 sorcerer so he can't cast polymorph.
What illusion spells do you have in mind?:smallconfused:

Alter Self to Spellscale, disguise self to Human? (or a mundane disguise/bulky clothing.)

Milo v3

2011-03-20, 12:03 AM

Alter Self to Spellscale, disguise self to Human? (or a mundane disguise/bulky clothing.)

Sounds good.
Now I'll just give him a Ring of Extended Duration and he can hide amoung humans.

Mayhem

2011-03-20, 01:21 AM

No wonder the kobolds of core aren't dragonwrought :smalltongue:.

Curmudgeon

2011-03-20, 01:54 AM

Alter Self to Spellscale, disguise self to Human? (or a mundane disguise/bulky clothing.)
Still doesn't work.
Humanoid (dragonblood): Spellscales are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype. For all effects related to race, a spellscale is considered a dragon. You can't change type with Alter Self, so the spell will fail. The race part never has a chance to matter.

Milo v3

2011-03-20, 03:46 AM

Still doesn't work. You can't change type with Alter Self, so the spell will fail. The race part never has a chance to matter.

I don't think so. I think it just means the qualify for being both humanoids and dragons for prestige classes, items, and other similiar things.

If what you said was true then Kobolds wouldn't be affected by Hold Person or Charm Person.

LansXero

2011-03-20, 04:09 AM

I don't think so. I think it just means the qualify for being both humanoids and dragons for prestige classes, items, and other similiar things.

If what you said was true then Kobolds wouldn't be affected by Hold Person or Charm Person.

Dragonwroughts arent, actually.

Thurbane

2011-03-20, 04:16 AM

Milo v3

2011-03-20, 04:31 AM

Dragonwroughts arent, actually.

I said normal kobolds were affected by Hold Person and charm person, not Dragonwroughts. But I can see how it might look like I mean't Dragonwrought's.

Edit: I don't want to give the players a magic item they can so easily abuse, just because they killed the Dragonwrought.

Jarian

2011-03-20, 04:38 AM

Wait, this is for an NPC?

Give him the "I Can Disguise Myself As a Human" template.

Its use is obvious.

Milo v3

2011-03-20, 04:53 AM

Wait, this is for an NPC?

Give him the "I Can Disguise Myself As a Human" template.

Its use is obvious.

Its was going to pretend to be a little human girl that was kidnapped by the kobold and her parents were kill trying to protect her. I want their to be a way for the players to understand how the kobold tricked them, not just add the "I Can Disguise Myself As a Human" template.

Jarian

2011-03-20, 05:19 AM

And how does "He did it with magic! (Supernatural ability)" vary in any worthwhile method of discovery from "He did it with magic! (Alter Self)"?

Milo v3

2011-03-20, 05:31 AM

And how does "He did it with magic! (Supernatural ability)" vary in any worthwhile method of discovery from "He did it with magic! (Alter Self)"?

I don't want to give him a powerful extra ability just to suit a plot-line that might never happen.
How would he get that power anyway? If I did give it to him that is.

TroubleBrewing

2011-03-20, 05:34 AM

Custom item? Maybe it's an heirloom of the girls.

Milo v3

2011-03-20, 05:37 AM

Custom item? Maybe it's an heirloom of the girls.

Is the Girls part a typo? :smallconfused:

What do you mean?:smallconfused:

Jarian

2011-03-20, 05:40 AM

I don't want to give him a powerful extra ability just to suit a plot-line that might never happen.
How would he get that power anyway? If I did give it to him that is.

He's a dragonwrought. Many dragons can assume humanoid forms. Ergo, by the power of the DM, he's just a little more than a normal dragonwrought kobold.

You're the DM. You have every right to make up stuff like this on your own; you don't need printed material to give an NPC an ability you want it to have.

Morph Bark

2011-03-20, 05:45 AM

Still doesn't work. You can't change type with Alter Self, so the spell will fail. The race part never has a chance to matter.

One could argue that the dragonblood subtype effectively also makes them count as dragon type for purposes of Alter Self use, but that would make Spellscales and other dragonblooded who can cast spells quite a bit stronger than other races.

And how does "He did it with magic! (Supernatural ability)" vary in any worthwhile method of discovery from "He did it with magic! (Alter Self)"?

Because some DMs prefer to play by the rules in the books.

Is the Girls part a typo? :smallconfused:

What do you mean?:smallconfused:

He meant as in a heirloom of the kobold, who is disguising himself as a little girl. Hence the girls part.

Mayhem

2011-03-20, 06:00 AM

One could argue that the dragonblood subtype effectively also makes them count as dragon type for purposes of Alter Self use, but that would make Spellscales and other dragonblooded who can cast spells quite a bit stronger than other races.

A direct quote of the book:

DRAGONWROUGHT
You were born a dragonwrought kobold, proof of your race’s innate connection to dragons.
Prerequisites: Kobold, 1st level only.
Benefit: You are a dragon wrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. Your scales become tinted with a color that matches that of your draconic heritage. As a dragon, you are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects. You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. You gain a +2 racial bonus on the skill indicated for your draconic heritage on the table on page 103.
Sadly that's(your statement) not the case with dragonwrought kobolds. So in effect Humanoid(kobold, dragonblooded) subtype still counts as humanoid for alter self, but dragon(kobold) doesn't.
edit: disregard what I just said, I think I'm wrong.

Milo v3

2011-03-20, 06:03 AM

One could argue that the dragonblood subtype effectively also makes them count as dragon type for purposes of Alter Self use, but that would make Spellscales and other dragonblooded who can cast spells quite a bit stronger than other races.

IMHO Dragonblood basically classes you as a dragon and a humanoid. Technically they can use the Dragon Type for Alter Self because it says that it works for spell effects as well.

This does make kobold more powerful but none the less.

Because some DMs prefer to play by the rules in the books.

I like to mix and match. But I don't think that it should be an ability. One of my players likes to see how the enemies uses spells, gear, ect. and then adapt. They like to know how the magic trick works.

I don't want to just add an ability to the kobold without some reason behind it and some balancing factor (the kobolds going to become a companion).

He meant as in a heirloom of the kobold, who is disguising himself as a little girl. Hence the girls part.

That makes perfect sense. Now I see it was obvious he was taking about the "Girl".
Sorry, I'm highly intelligent and can understand complex ideas, but give me something simple (Like making toast) and I don't have a clue.

Basically high Int, Low Wisdom.

Mayhem

2011-03-20, 06:05 AM

Ha, ninja'd. Yeah, I read the racial description right before you posted.

Dusk Eclipse

2011-03-20, 09:38 AM

You could give the Dragonwrought Kobold the feat Alternate Form (found in Dragons of Eberron pg 15).

Pre-requisites are True Dragon* Sorcerer Level 5th

And you get the Alternate Form (Su) ability to take the form of humanoids and small or medium animals three times a day.

*I know it is hotly debated whether Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons or not; but for the purposes of this let's assume they are)

Urpriest

2011-03-20, 10:23 AM

Disguise Self doesn't specify type, only general body-type. If the character can have Alter Self up, they can have Disguise Self up. She's just a little girl with an abnormally long nose. Works fine.

Also, any story/mechanical reason for the kobold to be Dragonwrought? You could just leave the character as a regular kobold.

true_shinken

2011-03-20, 10:32 AM

+1 to Disguise Self

Kyouhen

2011-03-20, 04:27 PM

If you don't want the Hat of Disguise to be abused by your players, make it built for a tiny-sized character and use those rules that let the Kobold qualify as being one size smaller when beneficial. If your players try to use it, tell them it won't work because it was made for tiny characters. Or make it only capable of changing their hair or something. Then if you're worried about them selling it for too much, have the shopkeepers buy it for a fraction of the normal value because it's unlikely they'll ever find a customer who will buy it. :smalltongue:

Psyren

2011-03-20, 04:30 PM

I originally suggested alter self because I thought the kobold wanted to be an adult human (going from Small to Medium.) If his disguise is a little girl though, Disguise Self should be enough.

Milo v3

2011-03-20, 04:47 PM

I originally suggested alter self because I thought the kobold wanted to be an adult human (going from Small to Medium.) If his disguise is a little girl though, Disguise Self should be enough.

Would Disguise Self really be enough?

The reason he turns into a little girl is so that people won't wonder why she doesn't know "Obvious" thing's which are part of Human society.

Dusk Eclipse

2011-03-20, 04:51 PM

Would Disguise Self really be enough?

The reason he turns into a little girl is so that people won't wonder why she doesn't know "Obvious" thing's which are part of Human society.

I must again push for the Alter Form feat from Dragons of Eberron, it is just what you want OP.

Milo v3

2011-03-20, 05:02 PM

I don't see how they are true dragons. So he can't get the feat.

But I guess I could bend the rules.

Dusk Eclipse

2011-03-20, 05:04 PM

I don't see how they are true dragons. So he can't get the feat.

But I guess I could bend the rules.

As I said on my other post, assuming they were considered true dragons (as I do) I would push for that feat; but since you don't, then I will agree that Disguise Self is the best option.

Kyouhen

2011-03-20, 05:14 PM

Would Disguise Self really be enough?

The reason he turns into a little girl is so that people won't wonder why she doesn't know "Obvious" thing's which are part of Human society.

As long as he isn't running around in a city with PCs/guards/security that constantly has True Seeing on in case some evil little monster decides to sneak in using a magical disguise, he should be fine. :smalltongue:

Marnath

2011-03-20, 07:44 PM

As I said on my other post, assuming they were considered true dragons (as I do) I would push for that feat; but since you don't, then I will agree that Disguise Self is the best option.

Where this goes wrong is the fact that being Dragon type doesn't make you a true dragon. That refers to ten specific species of dragon, the chromatic and metallic breeds. Red, green, blue, black, white, gold, silver, copper, bronze and brass. Other dragons, like pseudodragon or the landdrakes may have the type but they aren't "true" dragons.

Urpriest

2011-03-20, 07:47 PM

JaronK

2011-03-20, 09:55 PM

Where this goes wrong is the fact that being Dragon type doesn't make you a true dragon. That refers to ten specific species of dragon, the chromatic and metallic breeds. Red, green, blue, black, white, gold, silver, copper, bronze and brass. Other dragons, like pseudodragon or the landdrakes may have the type but they aren't "true" dragons.

Actually, Draconomicon gives a list of all true dragons to date... it includes a LOT more than those dragons you just mentioned. Most True Dragons are in fact neither metallic nor chromatic, so the definition you just gave can't be correct (it misses Lung Dragons, Gem Dragons, Planar Dragons, Epic Dragons, and so on... all of which are explicitly True Dragons).

Meanwhile, Dragon Magic says True Dragons are any creature of the dragon type that has 12 age categories (page eighty something... 83 I think? It's in the Dragonpacts section). Dragons of Kyrnn backs this up in the feats section, and Draconomicon just says that a True Dragon is any dragon that gets more powerful as it gets older. Draconomicon also makes it clear that in general when True Dragons are mentioned they mean the 10 in the Monster Manual, but when you need to know if something is True or not it has the specific definition.

The thing is, Races of the Dragon (the book that Dragonwrought is from) says that Kobolds have the same 12 age categories as the True Dragons, and they don't take aging penalties when they get older if they have the Dragonwrought feat. This means that if they take Dragonwrought, they hit all the definitions of True Dragon that have ever been printed (and those same definitions apply to all the True Dragons listed in Draconomicon). Note that Races of the Dragon was printed after Draconomicon, so there's good reason Dragonwrought Kobolds aren't found in that list.

Honestly, when you look at it it seems clear that Races of the Dragon intentionally made Kobolds able to become True Dragons (all the fluff fits it nicely, it even says they were the leftovers of the process that made the rest of True Dragons), but that the writers of Dragons of Eberron never noticed this had happened... all the really unbalanced stuff occurs when you combine those two books (though there's some pretty messed up stuff if you're just a dragon at all that happens in Draconomicon).

For references, see Draconomicon (page 4 sidebar) and Dragon Magic (page 83 IIRC) as well as Dragons of Kyrnn in the feats area.

JaronK

Curmudgeon

2011-03-21, 12:27 AM

If you don't want the Hat of Disguise to be abused by your players, make it built for a tiny-sized character and use those rules that let the Kobold qualify as being one size smaller when beneficial.
There are two problems with this scheme:
The Hat of Disguise is a garment, and magical garments auto-size to fit:
Size And Magic Items: When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer.
"qualify as being one size smaller when beneficial" is limited; Slight Build (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) does nothing to help with smaller garments, since there's no opposed check required to wear one, and the Kobold otherwise retains its own normal size.

Slight Build: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
Anyone, of any size, can use a Hat of Disguise; it's magic.

only1doug

2011-03-21, 04:45 AM

Milo v3

2011-03-21, 05:08 AM

Cursed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm) Hat of disguise; Only works for Kobolds.

Dependent Curse FTW.

(note, a High UMD skill can emulate race, so the party rogue may eventually be able to use this item)

Maybe a Amulet of Dragon Hiding.

Only able to be activated by a Dragon. It allows a Dragon to transform into Human Form. This doesn't change the clothes of user. Once transformed the user can turn back at any time as a free action.

Aspenor

2011-03-21, 07:15 AM

I'd just go with the "can change form into a human" template, +0 LA, +0 CR. Just my 2 cents.

only1doug

2011-03-21, 07:31 AM

Maybe a Amulet of Dragon Hiding.

Only able to be activated by a Dragon. It allows a Dragon to transform into Human Form. This doesn't change the clothes of user. Once transformed the user can turn back at any time as a free action.

You are that worried about hat abuse?
You could alternatively have the curse limit the hat to 1 change / day, then the PCs have a cool item but can't abuse it.

Noneoyabizzness

2011-03-21, 07:48 AM

ok is there a larger plot that will branch off this?

if this kobold is connected to a group of kobolds observed and protected by a dragon or other high end figure, a custom or cursed item makes perfect sense, and whatever the outcome of this may have repercussions later in the story

manyslayer

2011-03-21, 08:25 AM

Create a magic item that limits the form to just the little girl in question (even make no size change if you don't want the PCs to become little girls - they'd only be able to be medium sized little girls unless there are halfling/gnomes in the party).

true_shinken

2011-03-21, 09:25 AM

Honestly, when you look at it it seems clear that Races of the Dragon intentionally made Kobolds able to become True Dragons

Of course you're ignoring that Races of the Dragon has an updated listing of all true dragons and it does not include kobolds.

Thane of Fife

2011-03-21, 09:30 AM

Couldn't you just make a custom spell that lets the caster take the shape of a human regardless of his type? Then the players can find it in his spellbook (or whatever) and say "Oh, that's how he was doing that."

Kyouhen

2011-03-21, 09:32 AM

There are two problems with this scheme:
The Hat of Disguise is a garment, and magical garments auto-size to fit:
"qualify as being one size smaller when beneficial" is limited; Slight Build (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) does nothing to help with smaller garments, since there's no opposed check required to wear one, and the Kobold otherwise retains its own normal size.

Anyone, of any size, can use a Hat of Disguise; it's magic.

Nope, it says many magical garments size to fit. The kobold wizard that made this one wanted to save a bit of XP, so didn't bother to make it capable of reshaping. :smalltongue:

Also it's a helmet of disguise. The kobold has to make an escape artist check to cram his head in it or take it off. Or maybe it's a circlet that fits very, very tightly. :smalltongue:

EDIT:

Couldn't you just make a custom spell that lets the caster take the shape of a human regardless of his type? Then the players can find it in his spellbook (or whatever) and say "Oh, that's how he was doing that."

That would be a good idea. Even if your players decided to copy the spell it would be next to worthless to them, unless the party wizard happens to be an elf and wants to use it as a disguise, but even then Alter Self works better.

Morph Bark

2011-03-21, 10:24 AM

Of course you're ignoring that Races of the Dragon has an updated listing of all true dragons and it does not include kobolds.

On which page does it?

Milo v3

2011-03-21, 05:07 PM

Is this the spell:
Camouflage of the Kobolds
School:Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer/ Wizard 2
Components: V,S
Casting Time:1 Standard Action
Target:Personal
Duration:1 day

Transforms the caster into a Human Female. This spell doesn't change size if the caster is of small size the new form will be the form of a female human child. This spell doesn't change the aparrel of the caster.

Even though it doesn't change size it does change the dimensions of the caster to suit the form.

JaronK

2011-03-22, 06:34 AM

Of course you're ignoring that Races of the Dragon has an updated listing of all true dragons and it does not include kobolds.

It doesn't include anything but base races, and Kobolds themselves aren't even dragons. A Half Red Dragon White Dragon is a True Dragon, yet not included. Cast PAO twice on yourself and you might count as a True Dragon, but that's not included either. A White Dragon that's been killed and turned into a Skeleton isn't a Dragon so it's not True either, but the list says White Dragons are True.

Since the list is only base races, it's not surprising that a method of granting the status to an otherwise not qualified race isn't listed there.

Furthermore, the list you're referring to is a list of possible heritages that might give breath weapons and such. Dragonwrought Kobolds are actually members of other True Dragon groups (for example, you could pick White Dragon) so they actually are in a way listed. Note the table with age categories, where it says they can pick to be chromatic or metallic. They get to pick one of those types (there's nothing listed about whether they could be a lung dragon kobold).

JaronK