Rope Trick Broken?

[Gamer Girl]

So I've seen over and over again that Rope Trick is broken. I guess the idea is that a group can cast the spell, rest and be completely immune to anything and everything in the Multiverse. Now, I checked my copy of the PH and it never says ''Rope Trick is unaffected by anything''.

It's never been a problem in my games, but then I run an extremely high magic game.

First it is possible to find the Rope Tricked hide hole. It even says in the spell description that divination spells can find it. But any foe with a bit of intelligence or skill can follow the tracks and see them 'suddenly stop'. And a spellcraft role can get them knowledge of Rope Trick. And you can see the window too.

The description does say 'Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it' but that does not cover everything. It does not say 'the interface is immune to all magic'. So you can, for example, dispel the Rope Trick. Or target it with any other number of spells.

And it does say that the Rope Trick is 'beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.' So wait, if a spell reaches 'across the planes' then it works, right? So Extradimensional spells work.

And it does say 'spells' and 'area effects', so if you use a supernatural power...that does cross the extradimensional interface.

As a matter of fact, where in the spell description does it say creatures can not enter the extradimensional space?


I can't be the only one that sees all the holes in Rope Trick, right?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The issue with finding the rope trick, assuming tracks have been covered, is that it's invisible normally. Not only is it normally invisible, it's near non-existent when closed. So, to find it would require generally during the lower levels require some random chump scanning an area with detect magic and see invisibility. Something most players would abject to, I imagine.

[Veyr]

It's not that it's impossible to counter. It's that it strains credibility that it gets countered regularly in most settings. The thing is very difficult to find/recognize, which means if it does get found every time or even a large portion of the time, that seems... dubious and strains suspension of disbelief.

[Ranos]

Getting inside the trick requires climbing a rope, which is impossible once you've pulled it up. Dispelling the rope trick would require targeting the rope (since the target is "One touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long"), which again you can't do once it's pulled up.

And nobody ever takes extradimensional spell.
So nope, it IS just that powerful, and should probably be houseruled in some way if you don't want resting to become trivial.

Or you could start enforcing the "no stacked dimensional portals" rule to stop anyone with bag of holdings from entering tricks. I'd rather just houserule the thing though.

[Privateer]

Dispelling the rope trick would require targeting the rope (since the target is "One touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long"), which again you can't do once it's pulled up.


How come you can't target the 3x5' window with dispel? It's part of the spell, right?

Besides, you don't really need to dispel it, just see it and set up a good ambush around it for when the spell ends. And a 3x5' window should not be that difficult to spot for anyone capable of seeing invisible.

[Ranos]

How come you can't target the 3x5' window with dispel? It's part of the spell, right?

Besides, you don't really need to dispel it, just see it and set up a good ambush around it for when the spell ends. And a 3x5' window should not be that difficult to spot for anyone capable of seeing invisible.

The rope is the object that is under an ongoing spell, so dispel won't work until you target it, or you get it into an area dispel.

I'm not sure an ambush is the best idea, the guys in the rope trick can see you coming from the window, and they get to decide when to end the trick and get the drop on you.
If you've got the resources though, you could lock the room tight and pump it full of water, or deadly gas, or magma.

[Sacrieur]

Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.

So aside from that, pulling the rope into the space pretty much means instant invincibility. An AMF or Dispel Magic would only work if the rope were not pulled into the extra-dimensional space, since the spell is cast on the rope. There would also be no magical aura (though maybe a lingering one).

OR

The place where the rope anchors exists in both planes; therefore, AMF and Dispel Magic would ruin the effect. The spell would also be detectable through Detect Magic as well.

But this can be argued, since the pulled up rope is counted as one of the 8 creatures in the space, it means it is applicable for the above mentioned excerpt.

---

It can be detected via See Invisibility since that would allow you to see through the window and go, "Hey, there are people up there!" I would assume it is not a class window, and is two-dimensional and immaterial (and thus cannot be damaged).

[Privateer]

The rope is the object that is under an ongoing spell, so dispel won't work until you target it, or you get it into an area dispel.


Yes, the rope was the target, but result of the spell is an extradimensional space with a window on this plane; this result ought to be targetable by dispel, no? I mean, a summon monster spell has no target, but the creature can be dispeled by targeting it.

[Ranos]

Yes, the rope was the target, but result of the spell is an extradimensional space with a window on this plane; this result ought to be targetable by dispel, no? I mean, a summon monster spell has no target, but the creature can be dispeled by targeting it.
Oh, this clause of the spell ? Depends if you consider the window an object.


If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

[Radar]

The thing is, that Rope Trick is a 2nd level spell that provides security level at least on par with Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion (7th level spell). It is overpowered whether it can be dispelled or not.

[VirOath]

In all honesty, if the enemy would stop at a point every time the tracks they were following of the PC suddenly ends and they would assume a rope trick, it would make the lives of the party a heck of a lot easier. Because if ropetrick is first on their list of "Oh, they must have done this" then they will just stop and setup camp and wait like a video game mob, a completely stupid reaction.

Because, a tracking roll can leave no tracks, spells can replicate that effect (such as fly leaves no tracks) and there are a bunch of means that other mundane party members have that can leave false tracks and not leave real ones (backtracking perfectly and climbing up off the ground to continue moving, toss in a hide roll)

Heck, you can even tell an unseen servant to make tracks for you if you really want to.

As others have said, the source of the spell is inside the ropetrick, the method of getting into the rope trick is pulled up as it is the rope itself. Since the window has no physical presence and is not the origin of the spell it is not an object.

So you can't cast spells at the window, can't cast them through the window, can't reach the extra dimensional space yourself unless you climb the rope (which is stated in the spell) and can't fire anything into it after them. And the window itself where they will come out is invisible.

You said it yourself, you need a means of crossing the barrier, like Extra Dimensional Spell to have any spell affect the rope trick itself unless it is cast from inside the rope trick. And that means just isn't present in most monster writeups and casters rarely take it.

If the 'tracker' could see the invisible and noticed the window, then yes a spellcraft roll would let them know of rope trick, or a Know Arcana as well. But if they are getting this roll whenever the PCs use ropetrick because "the tracks end here" and only when they do so, I'm calling shenanigans.

Because the last thing on a trackers mind (remember it takes a feat to track) is Rope Trick. Because either the entire group is waiting where their tracks end and watching us this very moment, or they have done something to hide their tracks/leave false ones and they need to spread out the search to find them fast. One option can combat rope trick as a mob mentality, but that completely leaves them open to every other means of escape and hiding. And it is cheating for the DM to use what the players are doing and move to directly counter to it, to shut down the PCs when the mobs or world at question wouldn't know.

So you are seeing holes that just aren't there.

[Yora]

It takes the feat Track to track tracks with a DC higher than 20 and using the Survival skill. You can track tracks without Track if the DC is 20 or lower and you use the Search skill.

[Gnaeus]

It takes the feat Track to track tracks with a DC higher than 20 and using the Survival skill. You can track tracks without Track if the DC is 20 or lower and you use the Search skill.

Urm, nope.

Track specifically states that you CANNOT use search to follow tracks, only to find some indications of passage.

Track also allows you to find tracks with a DC higher than 10, not 20. So most outdoor surfaces, and virtually all indoor ones, require the feat.

(PHB 101)

[Malevolence]

Rope Trick is foiled by Detect and Dispel Magic, which means even a Warlock can defeat it. Even so, waking up because the spell ended and everyone took some minor falling damage is a much better deal than what you'd get otherwise - it is very easy to sneak in, right past whatever guards are on patrol and just start murdering the PCs one by one.

Rope Trick isn't overpowered. It's necessary to explain why they aren't all murdered by any decently organized force they ticked off when they go to sleep at night. The only other way to prevent that would be to take out the entire organization in a single day. And that's not happening.

[Avaris]

Um, why is the ability to use very specific skills to counter a 2nd level spell 'broken'. It seems perfectly reasonable to me; the spell functions as intended, but can't be relied upon in every situation, which is a good point of balance. It'd get extremly dull if the party were able to safely rest in an interdimensional space every night.

So yes, Rope Trick has lots of holes in it. This is not a design flaw for a second level spell.

[VirOath]

Actually, there aren't a lot of holes in the spell. Once the rope is inside, nothing can cross.


Rope Trick is foiled by Detect and Dispel Magic

No, it isn't. Detect magic can't identify the spell on it's own for starters, it can only tell at most the spell school and caster level. Close to, and a given with a skill check, but not entirely. And aside from warlock, constant detect magic is a rarity.

Dispel doesn't work at all though. The piece of rope has to be hit by the dispel in one form or another in order to be dispelled, but that is inside the rope trick. No spells can cross the extradimensional barrier unless it states otherwise, like the Extra Dimensional Spell metamagic.

In order for a dispel to ever work the source of the spell has to be targeted. You can't dispel Darkness by targeting the shadows, you have to target the source of the on going spell. And this just can't be done with rope trick without some serious stretching, and it's written right into the spell that way.

[Jack_Simth]

Actually, there aren't a lot of holes in the spell. Once the rope is inside, nothing can cross.
Sort of. What the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm) actually *says* is:


Rope Trick

Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by- 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

Material Component: Powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment.
Now, you can't argue that the spell says the rope is the only way to get into the extradimensional space, as it doesn't explicitly say that. It also doesn't explicitly say the interface is not a dispellable portion of the spell, nor does it say a great many other things - including the little issue that it doesn't say you can actually enter the space at all by any means.

So if you go strictly by the spell text, you can't get into the space at the top of the rope trick at all (despite the fact that it can hold 8 critters...), and it's useless for anything other than climbing to places. If you don't go strictly by the spell text, it's perfectly fine for the DM to say "It can be dispelled from the outside" or "Flying through the window it leaves behind will put creatures into the extradimensional space" or a great many other things.



No, it isn't. Detect magic can't identify the spell on it's own for starters, it can only tell at most the spell school and caster level. Close to, and a given with a skill check, but not entirely. And aside from warlock, constant detect magic is a rarity.
I actualy give the Magic Sensitive Reserve feat to a rather lot of the characters I build...


Dispel doesn't work at all though. The piece of rope has to be hit by the dispel in one form or another in order to be dispelled, but that is inside the rope trick. No spells can cross the extradimensional barrier unless it states otherwise, like the Extra Dimensional Spell metamagic.

In order for a dispel to ever work the source of the spell has to be targeted. You can't dispel Darkness by targeting the shadows, you have to target the source of the on going spell. And this just can't be done with rope trick without some serious stretching, and it's written right into the spell that way.
Do you have a quote on the 'must hit the origin' bit?

[Boci]

If you don't go strictly by the spell text, it's perfectly fine for the DM to say "It can be dispelled from the outside"

No it isn't. The target of the spell is a rope, you need to dispel that.


"Flying through the window it leaves behind will put creatures into the extradimensional space"

Or you could just use a ladder.

[Aspenor]

Technically it all depends if you consider the window an object created by the spell. If so, it counts as an effect and thus can be dispelled. AFAIK there isn't any text anywhere that says that you must target the targetted object of a spell effect in order to end that effect, though there might be text to that nature that I've missed.

To support that it depends if the window is an object considered an effect for purposes of dispelling:

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.
Since Rope Trick is an odd type of transmutation that actually creates things (the extradimensional space and the window), it can easily be interpreted as an effect for purposes of dispelling.

[Z3ro]

Technically it all depends if you consider the window an object created by the spell. If so, it counts as an effect and thus can be dispelled. AFAIK there isn't any text anywhere that says that you must target the targetted object of a spell effect in order to end that effect, though there might be text to that nature that I've missed.

To support that it depends if the window is an object considered an effect for purposes of dispelling:

Since Rope Trick is an odd type of transmutation that actually creates things (the extradimensional space and the window), it can easily be interpreted as an effect for purposes of dispelling.

It's not even that hard. According to dispel magic, if you use the area dispel,

"For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell."

Thanks to the fact that the rope trick was cast on the original plane (rather than in whatever demi-plane the spell takes you to), an area dispel works just fine.

[Sacrieur]

Technically it all depends if you consider the window an object created by the spell. If so, it counts as an effect and thus can be dispelled. AFAIK there isn't any text anywhere that says that you must target the targetted object of a spell effect in order to end that effect, though there might be text to that nature that I've missed.

To support that it depends if the window is an object considered an effect for purposes of dispelling:

Since Rope Trick is an odd type of transmutation that actually creates things (the extradimensional space and the window), it can easily be interpreted as an effect for purposes of dispelling.

It isn't quite an object. It is a window, and it exists in the material plane, but it doesn't say it is magical, or its composition.

The spell explicitly states that the rope is the source of the spell, and if the rope is inside the space, no area of effect spell can affect it. It's basically functioning as a AMF, only more powerful.

---

I've wondered about the entering of the space, I'm inclined to agree with VirOath for the reason the rope is the anchor to the dimension, and if you don't have the rope, then you don't have a method of crossing.

[Boci]

It's not even that hard. According to dispel magic, if you use the area dispel,

"For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell."

Thanks to the fact that the rope trick was cast on the original plane (rather than in whatever demi-plane the spell takes you to), an area dispel works just fine.

Wouldn't the point of origin be the rope?

[Jack_Simth]

No it isn't. The target of the spell is a rope, you need to dispel that.Did you read the first half of the sentence you quoted?
Or you could just use a ladder.That could potentially work too.

[Boci]

Did you read the first half of the sentence you quoted?

If you changed the rules, the old rules don't apply? Yes I purposefully ignored that.

[Reluctance]

If you make rulings that are in favor of the Rope Trick caster, the spell gets stronger. That doesn't prove anything other than that 3.5 can spawn some very annoying legalese.

The fact that rope tricks can be subverted isn't the issue here, though. The issue is how far out of your way you need to go to do so, compared to the the second level slot you need to spend. How many low-level monsters have the resources to waste on Detect Magic/Dispel Magic every time the PC's trail goes cold?

[Sacrieur]

If you make rulings that are in favor of the Rope Trick caster, the spell gets stronger. That doesn't prove anything other than that 3.5 can spawn some very annoying legalese.

The fact that rope tricks can be subverted isn't the issue here, though. The issue is how far out of your way you need to go to do so, compared to the the second level slot you need to spend. How many low-level monsters have the resources to waste on Detect Magic/Dispel Magic every time the PC's trail goes cold?

The ones who serve epic level wizards with the equivalent of a permanency fetish.

[Echoes]

I've wondered about the entering of the space, I'm inclined to agree with VirOath for the reason the rope is the anchor to the dimension, and if you don't have the rope, then you don't have a method of crossing.

I may be taking semantics a bit too far, but if you treat the rope as the only 'anchor' to the dimension, then remove that anchor (apparently completely) by pulling it up inside the extradimensional space, wouldn't that leave you with an unanchored pocket dimension that is completely disconnected from any other plane (and thus impossible to return from).

This is definitely RAI and not RAW, but I believe we can infer from the fact that after 8 hours a whole party of PCs can stay in the rope trick and not run out of air that matter can cross between the dimensions without the use of the rope.

Conversely, if you treat the rope as an anchor even when it is pulled 'completely' inside the extradimensional space, then that would imply that there is at least an infinitesimally thin layer of rope which is on the material plane at all times, which would make the rope targettable even after it was pulled inside.

[Jack_Simth]

If you changed the rules, the old rules don't apply? Yes I purposefully ignored that.
And you also apparently ignored the bits you didn't quote, which points out that if you just limit yourself to exactly what the spell says, you can't actually enter the extra dimensional space at all (well, without Plane Shift, Gate, or other such effects, anyway).

[Boci]

And you also apparently ignored the bits you didn't quote, which points out that if you just limit yourself to exactly what the spell says, you can't actually enter the extra dimensional space at all (well, without Plane Shift, Gate, or other such effects, anyway).

Yes I intentionally ignored that to in the hopes you weren't being serious. You've got things the wrong way round: because rope trick doesn't say you cannot block the entrance, it is not blocked to anyone.

[Jack_Simth]

Yes I intentionally ignored that to in the hopes you weren't being serious. You've got things the wrong way round: because rope trick doesn't say you cannot block the entrance, it is not blocked to anyone.It doesn't say it's blocked to mundane passage. It doesn't say it's open to mundane passage. Which means in order to make practical use out of the spell beyond climbing to places out of reach (which it does say you can do), you must put stuff in there that the spell doesn't specify. There's no way around it to use it as described for the brokenness so many are claiming it has. You're already putting in stuff that isn't spelled out in the description of the effect you're using. Then you suddenly turn around and say "Nope, nope, nope; you can't do such-and-such because of exactly the way it's worded" - huh? You're not using the exact wording anyway. You're already in house-rule territory to make the spell do what so many consider overpowered about it. What's the problem in permitting Dispel Magic to knock it flat? Especially as Dispel Magic does breach the planes somewhat, as an Abjuration (see the description of the Ethereal plane). Sure, it only applies to that one plane, but technically, Dispel Magic is a spell that works across the planes (as is Antimagic Field), which is the only requirement for things affecting stuff inside a Rope Trick.

[Ranos]

There is absolutely no problem with houseruling Rope Trick to be more sane. I agree wholeheartedly, and would do so in any of my games.

However, this is a rules thread. Ignoring the rules isn't the most constructive attitude.

[Gamer Girl]

It's not that it's impossible to counter. It's that it strains credibility that it gets countered regularly in most settings. The thing is very difficult to find/recognize, which means if it does get found every time or even a large portion of the time, that seems... dubious and strains suspension of disbelief.

I guess part of the problem is most people start their campaign on day one of year one of the world. In other words, nothing has ever happened before and everything the PC's do is new.

But on a world with a history, all the easy tricks would be old tricks...everyone would know about them. They would be passed on from person to person and even written down.

Take the Forgotten Realms for example: Rope Trick was created by the Netherize 2200 years ago. So the idea is that in over 2,000 years, no one has even heard of this spell, except the players?

[RebelRogue]

I guess part of the problem is most people start their campaign on day one of year one of the world. In other words, nothing has ever happened before and everything the PC's do is new.

But on a world with a history, all the easy tricks would be old tricks...everyone would know about them. They would be passed on from person to person and even written down.

Take the Forgotten Realms for example: Rope Trick was created by the Netherize 2200 years ago. So the idea is that in over 2,000 years, no one has even heard of this spell, except the players?
Not everyone is a wizard or someone with ranks in spellcraft. Just becasue something has been known for a long time doesn't mean everybody knows about it. Or has the means to counter it for that matter (which, as evidenced by this thread isn't necessarily trivial).

[Cartigan]

Pathfinder made a change so that the rope can't be pulled up into the extradimensional space. If you can see the opening and reach it, presumably you can enter it. Making it so the rope can't be pulled up makes that a little easier. Though unless you can see the invisible portal, it just looks like a rope floats up into the air.

[Z3ro]

Wouldn't the point of origin be the rope?

This is one of those tricky areas that make rule arguing pointless. In fact, as far as I can tell, no where is "point of origin" spelled out (it may be in somewhere). That means the DM must make a ruling on what the "point of origin" is. To me it's pretty clear that a "point of origin" would be the spot you cast the spell, hence point. Though an argument could be made for what you cast it on, though I would disagree with it.

[Analytica]

For my part, the problem with Rope Trick is that it seems... silly. This is a circus/stage magician type of trick, with ideally a snake charmer playing their pipes to make a rope rise through the air. Then they wave to the audience - across the fourth wall, really - climb the rope and - gasp! - disappear. This is Houdini magic, not Gandalf magic. I would ban it for this reason alone.

[Ranos]

This is Houdini magic, not Gandalf magic. I would ban it for this reason alone.
Man, you must ban a lot of spells.

[Veyr]

But-but! Prestidigitation is the best spell!

[Analytica]

Man, you must ban a lot of spells.

Ban or reflavour. In most cases reflavour. That works here too, but if I am doing that anyway, the step to removing things that takes the story in directions I want to avoid (like the 15 minutes workday) becomes much shorter.

[VirOath]

[mega-snip]

Climbing the rope enters the space, the spells allows for one person to climb the rope at a time. Pulling the rope inside takes up a creature slot but seals the space as the rope is no longer able to be climbed, it is not in the original plane.

Yes, there are other ways into the space created other than the rope, Extra Dimensional Spelled Teleport is an example, or a Dim Door of the same would work, or even an Abrupt Jaunt.

If you are going to argue that the window created can be passed by any normal being once the window is found and that the rope only allows people to climb up into it, fine. I'll bite down on that argument as both are acceptable readings of the rules. At this point the question becomes is it the window that lets your enter, or the rope? I still say the rope, as it is the origin of the spell while 'window' is used instead of doorway, which better describes a viewplane out rather than a method of passage. The statements of spells not being able to cross this barrier support that in my eyes, treating it as an active divination on the area they entered.

And the "Must Hit The Origin" of the spell is right in Dispel Magic:

Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:
Targeted Dispel

One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.
Area Dispel

When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.
Counterspell

When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.



Emphasis mine. So to do a targeted dispel, you need to target the spell itself, not the area effected by the spell. To argue otherwise is to say that you can Dispel a city sized Silence spell just by targeting any point of the effected area, an idea that the second bold text contradicts.

The only mention of the effected area of a spell rather than the spell itself (For those spells that are limited to a target, origin is used for spells that have an area of effect, Darkness and Silence are good examples) is with an Area Dispel, which states that to take out a spell the origin of that spell must be within the blast, otherwise it can only dispel the effect in that area. The blast is a spell effect, and spell effects and spells themselves cannot cross through the window. So the origin of the spell, the rope, cannot be targeted without extraordinary means (EDS metamagic once again)

[Aspenor]

you're ignoring this part of the spell, which i quoted earlier:


If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.
The window is definitely the effect of an ongoing spell. Whether it is an object or not is up for interpretation, but you won't be able to argue that your interpretation is RAW (and neither would the other side).

Arguing that the rope is the point of origin simply because it was the target is a little silly, btw. The rope didn't originate the spell, a wizard did it. The point of origin obviously refers to emanations.

[stainboy]

And it does say that the Rope Trick is 'beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.' So wait, if a spell reaches 'across the planes' then it works, right? So Extradimensional spells work.

And it does say 'spells' and 'area effects', so if you use a supernatural power...that does cross the extradimensional interface.

As a matter of fact, where in the spell description does it say creatures can not enter the extradimensional space?

I can't be the only one that sees all the holes in Rope Trick, right?

This came up a thread about a month ago. "Extradimensional space" apparently isn't defined in 3.5 (I asked in the Q&A thread) but the text of Rope Trick is basically copy-pasted from 2e. In 2e, extradimensional space meant demiplane on the Astral Plane, so if you go by that, the inside of a Rope Trick is its own plane.




It's not that it's impossible to counter. It's that it strains credibility that it gets countered regularly in most settings. The thing is very difficult to find/recognize, which means if it does get found every time or even a large portion of the time, that seems... dubious and strains suspension of disbelief.

This.

Anyway, Rope Trick is fine. If you remove every spell that a PC ever put to a clever unintended use, you end up with 4E. The problem is wizards wanting to rest after every encounter in the first place.

[JKTrickster]

Ban or reflavour. In most cases reflavour. That works here too, but if I am doing that anyway, the step to removing things that takes the story in directions I want to avoid (like the 15 minutes workday) becomes much shorter.

What flavor are you looking for then :smallconfused:

Because I don't recognize what you call "Gandalf-styled" magic.

[Sacrieur]

you're ignoring this part of the spell, which i quoted earlier:


The window is definitely the effect of an ongoing spell. Whether it is an object or not is up for interpretation, but you won't be able to argue that your interpretation is RAW (and neither would the other side).

Arguing that the rope is the point of origin simply because it was the target is a little silly, btw. The rope didn't originate the spell, a wizard did it. The point of origin obviously refers to emanations.


When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.

The rope is the point of origin because it is the anchor, and the spell is cast /on the rope/. Casting dispel magic on the window might only accomplish making the window visible.

However, even if we were to grant your point, it is moot, since the dispelling attempt would not be able to cross into the extradimensional space. Even if you completely removed the window with magic and that would normally affect the rope, the rope would still be unaffected because it is in the space, and thus spells cannot reach it.

As for being able to cross physically through the window... I don't think so. If you could cross physically through the window, then why can't spells?

[Worira]

Gandalf-style magic consists of spells like Fire Seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm), Ventriloquism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ventriloquism.htm), and Pyrotechnics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/pyrotechnics.htm). Also Light and Prestidigitation, I guess.

[only1doug]

The rope is the point of origin because it is the anchor, and the spell is cast /on the rope/. Casting dispel magic on the window might only accomplish making the window visible.

However, even if we were to grant your point, it is moot, since the dispelling attempt would not be able to cross into the extradimensional space. Even if you completely removed the window with magic and that would normally affect the rope, the rope would still be unaffected because it is in the space, and thus spells cannot reach it.

As for being able to cross physically through the window... I don't think so. If you could cross physically through the window, then why can't spells?

No. Dispell magic will end the entire spell.

The rope trick spell creates a temporary extradimensional space that is anchored to a point in normal dimensional space. If you dispell any part of the spell then the entire is unravelled.

You even bolded it yourself:

Targeted Dispel

One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.


Object: invisible window; Dispelled: rope trick.

Example: druid summons d4+1 wolves via summon natures ally line spell.

Wizard does targetted dispell on one wolf, all d4+1 wolves are dispelled as the dispell magic ends the Summon natures ally spell.

[Aspenor]

The rope is the point of origin because it is the anchor, and the spell is cast /on the rope/. Casting dispel magic on the window might only accomplish making the window visible.

However, even if we were to grant your point, it is moot, since the dispelling attempt would not be able to cross into the extradimensional space. Even if you completely removed the window with magic and that would normally affect the rope, the rope would still be unaffected because it is in the space, and thus spells cannot reach it.

As for being able to cross physically through the window... I don't think so. If you could cross physically through the window, then why can't spells?

No, this is objectively wrong.

I have no idea where you're getting your logic that the rope is the "anchor." That's just some made up word that you want to use that has no actual basis in the rules. The rope is not the "anchor" the rope is the original target, but there are other effects to the spell other than the effect on its target. ANY effect of a spell is a legitimate target for dispel, as per the exact rules of Dispel Magic.

If the window is dispelled, as per the exact rules the spell ends. This means that everyone falls out of the rope trick in a pile on the ground. The spell does not have to enter the dimensional space to dispel the Rope Trick.

As for not being able to cross through the window...so nobody can ever cross the window? The spell doesn't say you can. Don't go adding things that aren't in the spell, because silly things start happening when you do that.

[Sacrieur]

Have you read the description of Rope Trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm)?

And look more closely at Dispel Magic. One of the first things mentioned is, "Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic."

So no, Dispel Magic fails against a whole host of abilities, such as AMF. Additionally, Rope Trick specifically mentions, "Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes." Dispel Magic does not work across planes.

As for an anchor: "The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”)."

Additionally you can still dispute if it is an object, "Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it." Note that it says "as if" there was a window, and not that there is one.

[VirOath]

Here is the problem with saying that hitting the window with a dispel magic ends the entire spell.

First, is the window an Object Or Creature or a Spell Effect? I'm arguing for spell effect, as it being an object would mean it would be able to be manipulated by object spells such as Stone To Flesh, yet the window doesn't have any physical presence in the plane, it's a 2 dimensional object since it never mentions height.

Second, is the window the spell or an emanation/effect of the spell? Again, since the casting of the spell doesn't create the window, the rope does based upon it's length, and the rope then moves to create an area large enough to hold 8 creatures in extradimensional space, I argue that rope trick is an area spell. And the Point Of Origin for all area spells is the object they are cast onto. Darkness cast onto a rock has the origin for the ongoing effect being the rock, casting it onto the rock needs the spell to have line of effect from the target (the rock) to the caster, once it is cast the rock doesn't need line of effect to the caster and the effect of the spell is measured out from the origin, the rock itself.

So like any other area spell in the book, the target of the spell is the origin. That means, the rope is the origin of the spell once it is cast, the spell is tied into the rope itself.

Dispel magic spells out that a single target dispel cannot affect an area of a spell effect and that dispelling an effect of a spell does not dispel the entire spell.

[Z3ro]

Have you read the description of Rope Trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm)?

And look more closely at Dispel Magic. One of the first things mentioned is, "Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic."

So no, Dispel Magic fails against a whole host of abilities, such as AMF. Additionally, Rope Trick specifically mentions, "Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes." Dispel Magic does not work across planes.


You're reading things that aren't there. First, no where in the description of rope trick does it say it's immune to dispell magic. Second, the spells says creatures are immune to spells that don't reach across plains, not the spell itself.

[VirOath]

You're reading things that aren't there. First, no where in the description of rope trick does it say it's immune to dispell magic. Second, the spells says creatures are immune to spells that don't reach across plains, not the spell itself.


Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it.

It does not say that the creatures inside are immune to spells, it says that spells cannot cross into the extradimensional space. In order to affect the origin of the spell you need to argue that Rope trick isn't an area spell, that the window is an object and able to be affected by object spells, and that the origin of the spell isn't the target itself unlike every other area spell or the rules for area spells.

Or, that by dispelling a single point of the effect of a spell you remove the entire spell. Such as hitting a City Sized Silence with a single target dispel on the effect rather than the source, the origin of the spell effect, would get rid of the entire spell.

Arguing for clauses to the spell seem to just break the spell in other ways. Rope trick is strong, it's practically broken and it enables the 15 minute workday. Finding a contrived reason why it doesn't work is an in game solution to an out of game problem, you either not make it an option by roleplaying, or just flat out tell them that things will have to change because "Rope Trick and sleep" after every fight isn't the way you want to run your campaign.

And even then, there is a nice balanced set that explains how the ECL of the party is increased by +2 for comparing it to CR when the party will be at full hitpoints and resources for every fight. Means harder fights for less experience. And if you are looking for the quote on that, look up Xcrawl, the 3.5 supplement.

[only1doug]

Here is the problem with saying that hitting the window with a dispel magic ends the entire spell.

First, is the window an Object Or Creature or a Spell Effect? I'm arguing for spell effect, as it being an object would mean it would be able to be manipulated by object spells such as Stone To Flesh, yet the window doesn't have any physical presence in the plane, it's a 2 dimensional object since it never mentions height.


Irrelevent:- the window is an ongoing part of the spell and thus dispelling it ends the spell. It doesn't matter how you argue it, the window is created by the spell and therefore an ongoing part of the spell



Second, is the window the spell or an emanation/effect of the spell? Again, since the casting of the spell doesn't create the window, the rope does based upon it's length, and the rope then moves to create an area large enough to hold 8 creatures in extradimensional space, I argue that rope trick is an area spell. And the Point Of Origin for all area spells is the object they are cast onto. Darkness cast onto a rock has the origin for the ongoing effect being the rock, casting it onto the rock needs the spell to have line of effect from the target (the rock) to the caster, once it is cast the rock doesn't need line of effect to the caster and the effect of the spell is measured out from the origin, the rock itself.

So like any other area spell in the book, the target of the spell is the origin. That means, the rope is the origin of the spell once it is cast, the spell is tied into the rope itself.


Important for area dispel magic, irrelevent for targetted dispel.



Dispel magic spells out that a single target dispel cannot affect an area of a spell effect and that dispelling an effect of a spell does not dispel the entire spell.

Unfortunately this is where you have misread dispel magic - targetted dispel can end an area effect spell, it is only area dispel that has to hit the origin point.



Objects and creatures summoned by a spell, such as those by Summon Monster can be sent back with a dispel, yes. If you argue that a window is such an object rather than an effect, then yes it can be dispelled and closed. This does not change the fact that dispelling one such creature or object doesn't dispel the spell itself. Removing one of three monsters created by a summon monster doesn't send them all back. Dispelling the window does not dispel Rope Trick.

Yes it does, re-read dispel magic description.



So to do a targeted dispel, you need to target the spell itself, not the area effected by the spell. To argue otherwise is to say that you can Dispel a city sized Silence spell just by targeting any point of the effected area, an idea that the second bold text contradicts.


Here's the core of your mis-interpretation.
A targetted dispel magic could dispel a city sized silence spell (if the caster level was within the range of possible success)
The second area you bolded was referring to area dispel magic which works differently from targetted dispel.



The only mention of the effected area of a spell rather than the spell itself (For those spells that are limited to a target, origin is used for spells that have an area of effect, Darkness and Silence are good examples) is with an Area Dispel, which states that to take out a spell the origin of that spell must be within the blast, otherwise it can only dispel the effect in that area. The blast is a spell effect, and spell effects and spells themselves cannot cross through the window. So the origin of the spell, the rope, cannot be targeted without extraordinary means (EDS metamagic once again)

Because targetted dispel doesn't care what the area is, it kills the entire spell.

[VirOath]

Only1doug, point out where Single Target Dispel Magic says it can target the effect of the spell. It only ever says:

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

Conjuration, summoned or created. Means the window needs to be an object for it to work, not an ongoing effect of the spell.

There is no mention of single target dispel being able to target an effect of the spell. It can target the spell itself, but that needs the same target that the spell was originally cast upon. It's written to allow the dispelling of buff spells placed upon characters.

Only does an Area Dispel mention being able to affect an Area Effect of a spell. Quote evidence to provide otherwise, instead of just saying "Wrong" without anything to back it up.

[only1doug]

It does not say that the creatures inside are immune to spells, it says that spells cannot cross into the extradimensional space. In order to affect the origin of the spell you need to argue that Rope trick isn't an area spell, that the window is an object and able to be affected by object spells, and that the origin of the spell isn't the target itself unlike every other area spell or the rules for area spells.


don't need to hit the origin unless using area dispel



Or, that by dispelling a single point of the effect of a spell you remove the entire spell. Such as hitting a City Sized Silence with a single target dispel on the effect rather than the source, the origin of the spell effect, would get rid of the entire spell.

Yup, thats exactly right. Except that a City sized silence spell will have an Epic caster level and you probably won't be able to dispell it with d20+10.



Arguing for clauses to the spell seem to just break the spell in other ways. Rope trick is strong, it's practically broken and it enables the 15 minute workday. Finding a contrived reason why it doesn't work is an in game solution to an out of game problem, you either not make it an option by roleplaying, or just flat out tell them that things will have to change because "Rope Trick and sleep" after every fight isn't the way you want to run your campaign.

And even then, there is a nice balanced set that explains how the ECL of the party is increased by +2 for comparing it to CR when the party will be at full hitpoints and resources for every fight. Means harder fights for less experience. And if you are looking for the quote on that, look up Xcrawl, the 3.5 supplement.

Rope trick is strong, very strong. requireing see invisibility and dispell magic to remove it, one 2nd level spell that requires a 2nd and 3rd level spell to remove as well as some plot reason requiring the enemy to realise that they will need to use see invisible. There's no need to make it even stronger by weakening dispel magic.

[VirOath]

We sit in two very different schools on how dispel magic works. Yet you're a post behind, one of the reasons why discussions and debates here can be a little irritating *chuckles*

[only1doug]

Only1doug, point out where Single Target Dispel Magic says it can target the effect of the spell. It only ever says:



to re-iterate



Targeted Dispel
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell.


Either the window is part of the spell or it is an object created by the spell. either way it is targetable by targetted dispel, thus rope trick can be removed.

[only1doug]

We sit in two very different schools on how dispel magic works. Yet you're a post behind, one of the reasons why discussions and debates here can be a little irritating *chuckles*

Indeed,

Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree because I'm afraid my opinion won't change with the evidence we have been showing each other.

[VirOath]

Well, I sit on the grounds that the Spell, and the Spell Effect, are two separate things. A caster needs to have a line of effect to the target to cast the spell, and that same target needs to be the point targeted for a dispel magic for it to work. It's a valid reading of the rules, and if you can provide a quoted rule to prove otherwise then please do.

Otherwise people would have fun dispelling Locate City miles away just to be a ****.

Though I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

[only1doug]

Well, I sit on the grounds that the Spell, and the Spell Effect, are two separate things. A caster needs to have a line of effect to the target to cast the spell, and that same target needs to be the point targeted for a dispel magic for it to work. It's a valid reading of the rules, and if you can provide a quoted rule to prove otherwise then please do.

Otherwise people would have fun dispelling Locate City miles away just to be a ****.

Though I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

How about my previous example: Summon Natures Ally III (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyIII.htm): d4+1 (3) wolves
The spell summons the wolves, the wolves are the effect of the spell but a targetted dispel on one wolf will end the spell and so all 3 wolves vanish.

[only1doug]

Otherwise people would have fun dispelling Locate City miles away just to be a ****.


Not to be an ****, they have a caster keeping a prepared dispel action just in case its a bomb!

[VirOath]

Well, the wolves are actual creatures, so it goes under the clause of Creatures Summoned. The wolves may be a spell effect, but they are also creatures and valid targets of the spell in their own right. Creature, Object, or Spell.

And I'm in the belief that Locate City Bomb doesn't work anyways, it's using metamagic to add damage to a spell that doesn't deal damage on it's own. Precedents set by other feats state that it just doesn't work, and it doesn't feel logical for the world to work that way to me.

[Veyr]

And I'm in the belief that Locate City Bomb doesn't work anyways, it's using metamagic to add damage to a spell that doesn't deal damage on it's own. Precedents set by other feats state that it just doesn't work, and it doesn't feel logical for the world to work that way to me.
Now that is an argument against the Locate City Bomb that I haven't heard: where are these precedents? If you can find them, that would be a much better argument than the circle one.

[Yora]

Don't know about precedents, but the point at which a divination spell suddenly deals damage to everything in it's target area also seems extremely fishy to me.
Even if I'd allow all the spells and feats that are required in my games, that's the point where I would use my gm powers and rule that (I think it's a feat?) does not work that way.

[only1doug]

Well, the wolves are actual creatures, so it goes under the clause of Creatures Summoned. The wolves may be a spell effect, but they are also creatures and valid targets of the spell in their own right. Creature, Object, or Spell.

we'll agree to disagree then, barring further evidence one way or another.


And I'm in the belief that Locate City Bomb doesn't work anyways, it's using metamagic to add damage to a spell that doesn't deal damage on it's own. Precedents set by other feats state that it just doesn't work, and it doesn't feel logical for the world to work that way to me.

Heh, If a player in any game I was running wanted to pull off a LCB then I'd allow it, we'd all have a good laugh together, then his character would be obliterated from the face of existance until / unless he decided to revise his cheese.

[VirOath]

Now that is an argument against the Locate City Bomb that I haven't heard: where are these precedents? If you can find them, that would be a much better argument than the circle one.

And now, I feel like an idiot since I can't provide them to a level that I would be satisfied with. Born Of Three Thunders and similar feats require the spell to be dealing hitpoint damage before you can apply the offensive component, or modify existing hitpoint damage. Explosive Spell requires a reflex save instead and even goes as far as to state that it requires the offensive shapes. And I'm sure I've read a list of damage enhancing and adding feats that state that the spell must be able to deal damage before the feat was applied.

It comes right down to using metamagic feats to alter a spell to the point that it is doing something, and meeting requirements, that would be impossible for the spell itself to do. While adding such a feat chain to conjured creatures is one thing that I would allow, since such things are capable of dealing damage on their own.

But as stated, it's a divination spell, the school itself is for the exclusive ability of seeking knowledge and protecting it, divination by definition doesn't affect the world. The feat chain goes as far as to alter the spell far from what the school does to the point that the spell doesn't fit in that school anymore. I just wouldn't allow it to work, flat out.

[Yora]

Heh, If a player in any game I was running wanted to pull off a LCB then I'd allow it, we'd all have a good laugh together, then his character would be obliterated from the face of existance until / unless he decided to revise his cheese.
You could also tell the player that he's allowed to do it, but must roll damage for every single creature and structure in the area.

[only1doug]

You could also tell the player that he's allowed to do it, but must roll damage for every single creature and structure in the area.

Yes.

Roll each damage seperately

http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=193

See you next week year Dan....

[Infernalbargain]

Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.

Neither the rope trick nor the rope are creatures, therefore are not guarded. So dispel should work.

[Sacrieur]

Neither the rope trick nor the rope are creatures, therefore are not guarded. So dispel should work.


Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space.

It is unclear whether the rope is considered a creature or not.

Additionally:


Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it.

This is a general statement that applies to all spells, regardless of the target.

[Infernalbargain]

It is unclear whether the rope is considered a creature or not.

Additionally:



This is a general statement that applies to all spells, regardless of the target.

Can you cast mage armor on a rope? If not it's not a creature.

[Sacrieur]

Can you cast mage armor on a rope? If not it's not a creature.

Granted, but it still doesn't deal with the 2nd mention of protection from spells.

[Infernalbargain]

Granted, but it still doesn't deal with the 2nd mention of protection from spells.

Target window.

[Yora]

It is unclear whether the rope is considered a creature or not.
How so?


Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities

It only takes up the space required for one creature.

[Sacrieur]

Target window.

Great! But the dispel would have no effect on the rope, since the spell's effect can't travel through to the extra-dimensional space. All you'll end up doing is dispelling the window.

Look man, you can dispel magic a city wide silence all you want, but as far as I'm concerned it is just like putting out a fire by trying to extinguish the flames.

[Cogidubnus]

The issue with finding the rope trick, assuming tracks have been covered, is that it's invisible normally. Not only is it normally invisible, it's near non-existent when closed. So, to find it would require generally during the lower levels require some random chump scanning an area with detect magic and see invisibility. Something most players would abject to, I imagine.

Except you have to hit about 8th level before you can get a safe resting place from it, and if, for example, you've been slaughtering your way through a dungeon then stop to rest, it'll appear pretty obvious to anyone intelligent that you haven't left halfway through massacring the minions, you're just hiding out somewhere.

[Radar]

Except you have to hit about 8th level before you can get a safe resting place from it, and if, for example, you've been slaughtering your way through a dungeon then stop to rest, it'll appear pretty obvious to anyone intelligent that you haven't left halfway through massacring the minions, you're just hiding out somewhere.
Lesser Rod of Extend would allow you to do it at level 4.

I'd like to repeat a fact about Rope Trick: it's a 2nd level spell, that is an equivalent of a 7th level spell (Magnificent Mansion) - the only important difference between them is luxury level of your lodging, which doesn't change a thing. Dispellable or not, it's way too good for it's level. The Mansion doesn't even give you a window to check your surrounding.

[The Cat Goddess]

If you count the "window" as part of the spell... then an Area Dispel would, clearly, dispel that window... since the window is clearly defined as remaining on the Prime Material.

That would mean that people inside the Rope Trick would no longer be able to see out.

Technically, it could mean that nobody inside the Rope Trick could leave until the duration expires... but since the spell only defines the "window" as being used to see out, I would say this isn't the case.

Of course, for even more RAW wierdness... the spell specifically says "The window is present on the Material Plane". Which means, if you cast this spell while you're on another plane (such as a layer of the Abyss), you can't see out of it to the Abyss... you see out of it to the Material Plane.

[Infernalbargain]

Great! But the dispel would have no effect on the rope, since the spell's effect can't travel through to the extra-dimensional space. All you'll end up doing is dispelling the window.

Window is part of the spell, thus dispels the entire spell.


One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

[Aspenor]

Have you read the description of Rope Trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm)?

And look more closely at Dispel Magic. One of the first things mentioned is, "Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic."

So no, Dispel Magic fails against a whole host of abilities, such as AMF. Additionally, Rope Trick specifically mentions, "Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes." Dispel Magic does not work across planes.

As for an anchor: "The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”)."

Additionally you can still dispute if it is an object, "Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it." Note that it says "as if" there was a window, and not that there is one.

"Some spells, as detailed in their spell descriptions." This means that unless it is specifically stated that a spell cannot be dispelled, it can. It doesn't mean that you get to make up a bunch of things that aren't actually in the rules, and do mental gymnastics to make the spell immune.

Rope Trick carries no such designation, and as such absolutely can be dispelled.

It is simple, Rope Trick is a spell, the window is an effect of the spell, and spells as well as their effects are subject to dispel by dispel magic unless otherwise specifically stated in the spell description. Wall of Force is immune to dispelling because it specifically says so. Rope Trick is not immune to dispelling because it does not say it is.

It's really quite simple. I'm amazed that anybody could ever interpret it otherwise.

[stainboy]

It is unclear whether the rope is considered a creature or not.

If you need me I'll be in the corner, sobbing into a plastic cup full of vodka.

[Analytica]

What flavor are you looking for then :smallconfused:

Because I don't recognize what you call "Gandalf-styled" magic.

Well, I was going to say that I want my magic fluff to fit in the triangle bounded by Full Metal Alchemist, Wheel of Time and Aleister Crowley...

... but then I realized how much silly stuff that actually lets in, so I'll concede the point.

[DwarfFighter]

Shouldn't an anti-magic field at the opening stop people from coming back? :)

-DF

[Sucrose]

Shouldn't an anti-magic field at the opening stop people from coming back? :)

-DF

Most likely, but that would only last ten minutes per caster level, and requires a caster of at least level 11. If they have enemies that have easy access to such high level casters, who are loyal to the point of wasting a great deal of their time, and several 6th level spell slots on their behalf (since one never knows when the enemy will exit), odds are good that the PCs themselves are of high enough level to just Plane Shift back to the Prime Material.

[Frozen_Feet]

Lesser Rod of Extend would allow you to do it at level 4.

And that thing costs how much?

[Malevolence]

And that thing costs how much?

3,000. At level 4, it is quite reasonable with gold pooling, and it is a generically useful enough item to be well worth the effort on. Use one charge on this, and the other two on buffs or something. Though you actually have to be level 5. It's 8 hours of rest, 15 minutes to an hour to prepare spells. Getting thrown out of the Rope Trick immediately after waking up, and before being able to prepare is not helpful.

[VirOath]

And even the rod isn't needed. Preparing it as per the extend feat isn't optimal, but works in the cases of being told No on the rod.

[Malevolence]

And even the rod isn't needed. Preparing it as per the extend feat isn't optimal, but works in the cases of being told No on the rod.

True, but then you would have to use a 3rd level slot instead of one of your 2nd level slots. It's not too big of a deal, but it does give you fewer effective spells to throw around.

[Frozen_Feet]

Okay, so the earliest you can reasonably use Rope Trick tactics is level 5. I'll keep that in mind.

Overall, I'm not convinced Rope Trick is broken. It's a powerful option, yes, but hardly as bad as many people make it sound. It's allure is in granting safe rest. However, just because resting is safe doesn't mean it's an optimal choice.

The major argument I'm seeing is that safe rest allows for 15 minute workday and cheapens high-level magic. For this strategy to work, several boundary conditions must be in place:

1) Time isn't of essence. Resting to recover spells takes 8 hours and 15 minutes. There can't be any plot effects that will time out during that period.

2) The opposition is static. This condition is especially important between levels 5 and 9, during which I'd consider Rope Trick to have most use, but you don't have spells like Teleport trivializing travel distances. By stopping to rest, you just gave the opposition 8 h 15 min headstart.

3) The opposition does not have magic. Just a cantrip (Detect Magic) can be used to determine possibility of Rope Trick. That's all smart opposition needs to scheme accordingly. No, they don't need more magic for that, non-magical traps and alarm systems are enough. As the PCs advance past level 5, magic becomes more available not just to them, but to their enemies as well. Towards level 10, even opposition consisting primarily of fighter-types can be expected to have means for detecting (and even dispelling!) Rope Trick in the form of magic items.

4) The opposition is stupid. If we go by the standard encounter model where there are 4 encounters in day, and if the wizard & co just offed one, those three others must frankly be dim if they can't do anything to turn the tables in 8h 15 min. If those four encounters comprised the whole opposing force, they just lost quarter of their numbers. They won't take it lightly.

5) There are no reinforcements. Rope Trick works best when the adventure is just a series of obstacles that must be overcome, with no other conditions. In this situation, it allows the caster to (theoretically) trade time for failure-proof run through the obstacle course. This obviously ceases to work if the obstacles reset or would otherwise need to be passed in short sequence of each other.

This condition becomes more pressing the greater the opposition is, especially when the opposition is smart. Due to the way CR works, the opposition can vastly outnumber the PCs. This isn't so bad when they come divided into neat packages, like the four standard encounters. It turns fairly nasty when three of said encounters lump together into one greatly over-CR'd battle.

Against team of 4 PCs, a similarly-composed team of 4 NPCs who are all few levels lower is fairly appropriate. Three similarly-composed teams at once can quickly turn the tide against PCs due to the way action economy works.

6) After level 10, Rope Trick is obsoleted. Casters have increasingly less to gain from it, as they already have more spells than they can expect to use in their daily routine. They already have better spells to boot if they want to guarantee their safety, and the opposition is increasingly likely to have both the resources and manpower needed to counter it. Using Rope Trick inside an enemy fortress becomes infeasible if the opposition is, say, another wizard or a dragon capable of scry-and-die, or an orc mob with dozen level 4+ casters capable using See Invisible to locate the PCs.

---

Before someone cries "DM fiat!", I'd like to point out that RAW doesn't tell how the world works. That's what the DM is there for. RAW doesn't dwell in strategy or tactics, it only gives tools for use. The DM is allowed to play it smart and use all the same tools as the players, at which point most of conditions needed for "15 min workday" vanish simply because the opposition acts like hostile armed forces in magical world should.

Now, there are adventures that would fill all conditions. Tomb of Horrors style dungeon crawl, where the goal is just to get to the end, would be an example. However, since such adventurers rarely contain much fighting, which most spells revolve around, having more spells is a boon but not necessarily gamebreaker. More to the point, such adventures are meant to be solved in the overly-cautious manner tactics like the above represents. If players are smart enought to use them, they deserve to have their cake and eat it.

(One more comment that irks me: "Rope Trick does the same thing as Magnificent Mansion, it's OMG broken!" Power of spells does not increase evenly between levels. Some spells suck for their level. I could as well argue that MMM is a bad spell because it does nothing a 2nd level spell doesn't. Again, Rope Trick is powerful. That doesn't necessarily mean it's overpowered just because a later spell doesn't seem much by comparison.)

[Fox Box Socks]

The main problem, as I see it, isn't that Rope Trick can't be countered by a sneaky or clever DM, because it absolutely can. No, the problem is that even if Rope Trick is countered, the party is still better off for it having been cast. A few feet of falling damage and everyone being awake is far preferable to the ambush party catching them in their sleep.

Of course Rope Trick can be countered. But even when it's countered, it's done its job. There is very little reason not to use it once it becomes available.

[Veyr]

Also, Frozen Feet, I think you discount the situations in which Rope Trick works exactly as we want it to. Detect Magic is 1 min/Lv, which is likely to be insufficient to search the entire castle/dungeon/fortress/what-have-you. Not to mention that Detect Magic cannot typically see invisible things, so you would need See Invisibility, which is a 2nd level spell instead of a cantrip.

Moreover, adventurers frequently fight enemies who are "quite dim" (what with all the slavering monsters about). Reinforcements are often more than 8 hours away. The enemy vacating the place is sometimes exactly what the PCs were trying to achieve in the first place.

Et cetera, et cetera.

Yes, Rope Trick is not absolutely foolproof. That's not the point. The point is that far too often, it might as well be. I think it would strain credibility greatly if all the random monsters who have been inhabiting a cave for generations suddenly up and leave, or put aside their differences and camp out in a random tunnel for the night, every time the players use Rope Trick. That's simply not believable.

[Malevolence]

That is because Rope Trick is not broken, and additionally the 15 minute workday is a fallacy.

Not counting cantrips, the level 5 Wizard has 10 spells - 5 level 1, 3 level 2, 2 level 3. One of the level 2s has to be Rope Trick. Let's make the others Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, and Slow. Any one of these is a fight ender. He has four of them, and that's not counting some Grease spells or Rays of Enfeeblement in his first level slots. If he is specialized, or is an Int bonus race, or optimizes at all in any way he will have more spells than this. This is also not counting the spells that the other casters have, which could very well eliminate the need to use his own.

But even in the worst case scenario, at the lowest possible level his resources last 4 fights. Which is exactly as long as they are supposed to last. So there is no 15 minute workday, because you do not run out of resources unless you deliberately waste them.

And given that the alternative to Rope Trick being countered is everyone dies in their sleep, regardless of guard placement and such it's a good thing that spell is there. Taking out entire organizations, who you might not even know about in a single day is rarely feasible unless it is a small group. And having to play the enemies stupid is quite unsatisfying. So by all means, let them sleep, and sometimes get woke up by a surprise Dispel. It's better than ambushes fall, everyone dies.

[Gnoman]

One solution is to eliminate the15-minute workday by requiring 24 hours for all daily powers, including spells. That means that, if a wizard rests, preapres spells, and blows them all 10 minutes later, more spells are 16 hours away. At minimum, this greatly extends the time you need Rope Trick to last, and requires no rule changes.

[Forged Fury]

Homebrew a rope monster. Just like a rust monster, but eats rope.

[druid91]

Also, Frozen Feet, I think you discount the situations in which Rope Trick works exactly as we want it to. Detect Magic is 1 min/Lv, which is likely to be insufficient to search the entire castle/dungeon/fortress/what-have-you. Not to mention that Detect Magic cannot typically see invisible things, so you would need See Invisibility, which is a 2nd level spell instead of a cantrip.

Moreover, adventurers frequently fight enemies who are "quite dim" (what with all the slavering monsters about). Reinforcements are often more than 8 hours away. The enemy vacating the place is sometimes exactly what the PCs were trying to achieve in the first place.

Et cetera, et cetera.

Yes, Rope Trick is not absolutely foolproof. That's not the point. The point is that far too often, it might as well be. I think it would strain credibility greatly if all the random monsters who have been inhabiting a cave for generations suddenly up and leave, or put aside their differences and camp out in a random tunnel for the night, every time the players use Rope Trick. That's simply not believable.

It's also not believable that they would never do so. Particularly since adventurers have been doing it to them since antiquity.

What? You think your character lives in a vacuum, where nothing has consequences? No sir.

[Frozen_Feet]

Of course Rope Trick can be countered. But even when it's countered, it's done its job. There is very little reason not to use it once it becomes available.
You really can't think of a situation where hiding in a hole for hours to an end is useless? As opposed to all other options you could use a 2nd level spell for?

Just because the spell works as intended doesn't mean that it is useful. That's half of my points. For example, when tracking down a thief, one extra use of Locate Object for the day could easily be better than safe resting, because safe resting is not an issue. The PCs could stop in a tavern after they're done, it's more important to use everything they got to get back the next plot coupon.


Also, Frozen Feet, I think you discount the situations in which Rope Trick works exactly as we want it to. Detect Magic is 1 min/Lv, which is likely to be insufficient to search the entire castle/dungeon/fortress/what-have-you. Not to mention that Detect Magic cannot typically see invisible things, so you would need See Invisibility, which is a 2nd level spell instead of a cantrip.
They don't need to search or trap all of the castle, just the place where they suspect the PCs stopped. Even if they find nothing, they still have 8+ hours to rearrange guard shifts, increase security, call in reinforcements, barricade the rooms, flee the place and set it on fire... need I go on?

I'm not discounting situations where Rope Trick works as intended. I'm thinking vast majority of people discount how much time 8 hours is, and all the things that can blow on the PCs' face while they nap.

Moreover, adventurers frequently fight enemies who are "quite dim" (what with all the slavering monsters about). Reinforcements are often more than 8 hours away. The enemy vacating the place is sometimes exactly what the PCs were trying to achieve in the first place.

I acknowledge that. But vast majority of things the players will be fighting, especially at higher levels, are magical and at least of human level intellect on their own. In those cases, it's entirely plausible for them to turn the strategy on its head.

Rope Trick and See Invisibility are just 2nd level spells. By the time PCs can utilize tactics necessary for "15 min workday", their opposition can counter it or do it themselves. For majority of the game, doing that isn't even a major sink in resources. A level 5+ caster has lots of spells, and this works for enemies as well. Using a 2nd and 3rd level spells to catch intruders? Well worth the costs.


Yes, Rope Trick is not absolutely foolproof. That's not the point. The point is that far too often, it might as well be. I think it would strain credibility greatly if all the random monsters who have been inhabiting a cave for generations suddenly up and leave, or put aside their differences and camp out in a random tunnel for the night, every time the players use Rope Trick. That's simply not believable.

I dispute "far too often". Far too often, the GM is caught off-guard and panics, thinking the situation much worse than it is.

I'm not proposing all monsters flee, every time. It's not like random encounters pop up and screw resting players up all the time when they aren't using Rope Trick.

I'm simply noting that a good portion of possible enemies could reasonably employ counter-tactics at short notice, or there could be factors in play that make Rope Trick a poor option. In my view such situations are numerous enough that Rope Trick can't be called broken with good conscience.

[Jothki]

What I wonder is, if there was a race that was balanced like a LA 0 (maybe on the weakish end) race except with the additional ability to Rope Trick 1/day, would it need an LA? That alone should say whether Rope Trick is balanced for being such a low-level spell.

Edit: Hmm, or maybe not, I'm not quite sure exactly how LAs are determined for SLA use. There still does seem to be the general issue of casters being allowed to get powerful tools just because they're casters.

[Frozen_Feet]

That depends - how and when at earliest can you apply Extend to such SLA? On its own, Rope Trick allows for full rest at level 8 at earliest - and because by level 8 See Invisibility and other possible counters are already relatively common, it isn't much of an issue.

I don't think Rope Trick would warrant LA on its own.

[stainboy]

Not counting cantrips, the level 5 Wizard has 10 spells - 5 level 1, 3 level 2, 2 level 3. One of the level 2s has to be Rope Trick. Let's make the others Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, and Slow. Any one of these is a fight ender.

Usually buffs is what does it. A modest Fly + Bear's Endurance doubles the spell load per encounter. If the wizard needs to buff anyone else it's easy to nova in one fight.

Clerics are worse about it than wizards. A 5th level cleric can blow everything down to domain slots on stacking 1m/level buffs, and still need the wizard's help to cover anything situational.

[Malevolence]

Usually buffs is what does it. A modest Fly + Bear's Endurance doubles the spell load per encounter. If the wizard needs to buff anyone else it's easy to nova in one fight.

Clerics are worse about it than wizards. A 5th level cleric can blow everything down to domain slots on stacking 1m/level buffs, and still need the wizard's help to cover anything situational.

At this low of a level there are not too many buffs worth casting. Fly is one, but Bear's Endurance is most certainly not. Buffs mainly come into play when those slots aren't your highest anymore, or the buffs are actually good. Few core buffs are. Non core offers many more options here.

[Jeebers]

At this low of a level there are not too many buffs worth casting. Fly is one, but Bear's Endurance is most certainly not. Buffs mainly come into play when those slots aren't your highest anymore, or the buffs are actually good. Few core buffs are. Non core offers many more options here.

Actually, try this stunt, great for spellcasters:

Cast something to pump your spellcasting attribute, INT WIS or CHA. Your spells will now have a +2 to their save DC's. Then follow up with something nasty.

[Jack_Simth]

Also, Frozen Feet, I think you discount the situations in which Rope Trick works exactly as we want it to. Detect Magic is 1 min/Lv, which is likely to be insufficient to search the entire castle/dungeon/fortress/what-have-you. Not to mention that Detect Magic cannot typically see invisible things, so you would need See Invisibility, which is a 2nd level spell instead of a cantrip.Ah, but you still see the magical aura of the effect, which is enough to know something's up.

Besides:
When you can move and concentrate on the same turn (Concentrating is just a standard action), and can exclude a sixty-foot arc as having magic in that one standard action (presence or absence on the first round - None? Good, move on), you can cover quite a bit of territory in 1 minute/level. Especially if you have a 60-foot move (which a number of monsters do, and a fair number can get with only moderate difficulty).

[gomipile]

At this low of a level there are not too many buffs worth casting. Fly is one, but Bear's Endurance is most certainly not. Buffs mainly come into play when those slots aren't your highest anymore, or the buffs are actually good. Few core buffs are. Non core offers many more options here.

The campaign I am currently in has a level 5 wizard who makes good use of Haste and Bull's Strength.

[tyckspoon]

Actually, try this stunt, great for spellcasters:

Cast something to pump your spellcasting attribute, INT WIS or CHA. Your spells will now have a +2 to their save DC's. Then follow up with something nasty.

I can only really see this being useful if you're planning to cast a lot of spells with that buff.. most of the time, if you're trying to take out a single encounter, you'll be better off just casting your win spell twice so your opponents have to test against two saves. (Not to mention that you will want to get a +4 stat item for your casting stat pretty quickly, which will obsolete the Animal's Stat buffs.)

[faceroll]

The issue with finding the rope trick, assuming tracks have been covered, is that it's invisible normally. Not only is it normally invisible, it's near non-existent when closed. So, to find it would require generally during the lower levels require some random chump scanning an area with detect magic and see invisibility. Something most players would abject to, I imagine.

Object to, anyway.
Note that a wizard cannot gain his full complement of spells in a rope trick until he's level 9 or uses a 3rd level slot for extended rope trick.


It's not that it's impossible to counter. It's that it strains credibility that it gets countered regularly in most settings. The thing is very difficult to find/recognize, which means if it does get found every time or even a large portion of the time, that seems... dubious and strains suspension of disbelief.

Not quite, it's just that it moves the game from "quasi-medieval setting with fireballs" to a totally different setting.


The fact that rope tricks can be subverted isn't the issue here, though. The issue is how far out of your way you need to go to do so, compared to the the second level slot you need to spend. How many low-level monsters have the resources to waste on Detect Magic/Dispel Magic every time the PC's trail goes cold?

Precisely.

[Fax Celestis]

I generally reduce rope trick's duration from hours/level to ten minutes/level. Turns it into a hiding spot instead of a sleeping spot. You want to rest, cast tiny hut or magnificent mansion.