Hellfire Warlock?

[BIGMamaSloth]

I just read over the hellfire warlocks hellfire blast description and it doesn't sound that great. I mean, 1 constitution damage for just 2d6 bonus damage?
:smallyuk:

Has anyone played one? Do you suggest it? as it's main class feature doesn't sound that good.

[gorfnab]

I just read over the hellfire warlocks hellfire blast description and it doesn't sound that great. I mean, 1 constitution damage for just 2d6 bonus damage?
:smallyuk:

Has anyone played one? Do you suggest it? as it's main class feature doesn't sound that good.
The hellfire becomes useful with an ability that can heal the con damage every round such as using 1 level of Binder and binding the Naberius vestige. The build I usually recommend for a Hellfire Warlock is the Hellfire Ur-Lock: Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Eldritch Disciple 8. This nets you 9th level spells, dark invocations, and hellfire with the ability to heal the con damage thanks to Naberius.

[Sacrieur]

Warlock requires a lot of optimizing to get something decent. It's really not worth taking imo.

[MammonAzrael]

There is also a single feat from Magic of Incarunum, Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest), that prevents the Con damage. Also, by 3rd level, Hellfire Blast is an extra 6d6 damage.

And Sacrieur is correct. Well, about the optimization at least. Warlocks aren't a terribly powerful class without optifu, but that doesn't make them any less awesome.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Warlock requires a lot of optimizing to get something decent. It's really not worth taking imo.

I disagree. See, the thing about binding Naberius (gained via Binder 1) is that it gives you back one ability point per round. Thus, Hellfire becomes basically free.

[Kalim]

There is also a single feat from Magic of Incarunum, Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest), that prevents the Con damage. Also, by 3rd level, Hellfire Blast is an extra 6d6 damage.

And Sacrieur is correct. Well, about the optimization at least. Warlocks aren't a terribly powerful class without optifu, but that doesn't make them any less awesome.

Strongheart Vest, compared to Binder's Naberius trick, is a bit more contested since preventing the Con loss technically prevents you from using Hellfire, whereas taking the Con hit and then healing it afterward is still taking the Con hit. But, the argument is pretty old.

As for Warlock, it's not a terrible class, especially if you theurge it with one of the Complete Mage PrCs. A Warlock/Sorcerer/Eldritch Theurge wouldn't be terrible, and would probably be acceptable compared to Ur Priest/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple as described above.

[MammonAzrael]

Strongheart Vest, compared to Binder's Naberius trick, is a bit more contested since preventing the Con loss technically prevents you from using Hellfire, whereas taking the Con hit and then healing it afterward is still taking the Con hit. But, the argument is pretty old.

Yes, the Strongheart Vest is contested. However, the people who argue against it are simply wrong. By strict RAW Hellfire blast is only prevented if you are immune to Constitution damage, which Strongheart Vest does not provide. RAI is much murkier.

[KillianHawkeye]

The hellfire becomes useful with an ability that can heal the con damage every round such as using 1 level of Binder and binding the Naberius vestige. The build I usually recommend for a Hellfire Warlock is the Hellfire Ur-Lock: Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Eldritch Disciple 8. This nets you 9th level spells, dark invocations, and hellfire with the ability to heal the con damage thanks to Naberius.

If you can cast 9th level Cleric spells, why do you even need any tricks to auto-heal the Con damage...? :smallconfused:

[gorfnab]

If you can cast 9th level Cleric spells, why do you even need any tricks to auto-heal the Con damage...? :smallconfused:
Okay then which spell would you use to heal the con damage every round? Eldritch Blasts are standard actions which would leave you with a move and a swift action to use to cast a spell. Using the Naberius vestige's ability is a non-action so you don't have to waste your remaining actions and you don't have to waste your spell slots on essentially in combat healing. Also the 9th level spells don't come into play for that build until level 19, mainly because that build has the hellfire warlock levels right at the level you qualify for them instead of going for the 9th level spells first.

[true_shinken]

Yes, the Strongheart Vest is contested. However, the people who argue against it are simply wrong. By strict RAW Hellfire blast is only prevented if you are immune to Constitution damage, which Strongheart Vest does not provide. RAI is much murkier.

If it was that simple, this debate wouldn't be raging for years.
The FCII says 'somehow immune to Constitution damage'. And you are immune to the Constitution damage from hellfire. That is somehow immune to Constitution damage. A strict reading even disqualifies you from using hellfire if you have poison immunity, because then you are immune to Constitution damage from poisons and that is also being somehow immune to Constitution damage.

[Douglas]

If it was that simple, this debate wouldn't be raging for years.
The FCII says 'somehow immune to Constitution damage'. And you are immune to the Constitution damage from hellfire. That is somehow immune to Constitution damage. A strict reading even disqualifies you from using hellfire if you have poison immunity, because then you are immune to Constitution damage from poisons and that is also being somehow immune to Constitution damage.
No, "immune to constitution damage" means that you can't take constitution damage, ever, from anything. Immunity to poisons does not grant that, and neither does "constitution damage gets reduced by 1".

RAW is perfectly blatantly abundantly clear that it works. The people arguing against it are arguing RAI and trying to add an implied word that's not actually there that would make their RAI actually RAW. The RAI argument goes that what they really meant by that clause was that if you're immune to this constitution damage, the particular 1 point each time you use Hellfire Blast, then you can't use it. Strongheart Vest does make you immune to that specific instance of constitution damage due to it being only 1 point each time, and under that ruling it would render Hellfire Blast unusable. That's not RAW, though - RAW lacks any reference to the specific constitution damage from Hellfire Blast and instead makes its condition on general constitution damage immunity. Failing the RAW requirement only happens if you are immune to all constitution damage regardless of amount and source.

[true_shinken]

RAW is perfectly blatantly abundantly clear that it works.
RAW does not define what 'somehow immune to Constitution damage' means. The text does not read 'immune to Constitution damage', it reads 'somehow immune'.
Again, this debate has been going on for years. I've participated in most such threads on 339. There is no clear cut answer for this and saying 'RAW is perfectly blatantly abundantly clear that it works' is an insult to everyone who invested time and energy into trying to shed a light onto this issue.
There wouldn't be such a long heated debate if RAW was perfectly blatantly abundantly clear that it works. Period.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm not going to feign any expertise on hellfire warlock shenanigans, but I would like to say that this forum has been a host to many long, pointless debates where one side was clearly correct by RAW. Just because there's a long thread about it doesn't mean it's a real rules controversy.

[Veyr]

You're correct, but he said 339, not here. That statement is undoubtedly still true of 339, but much less so.

[Sacrieur]

There wouldn't any controversy if it had said immune to damage. The vest would be performing a DR 1/-. It is painfully obvious to anyone that this is damage reduction and not immunity to damage.

So what's the difference when we apply ability score damage? To argue the other way is to say that DR 1/- qualifies as immunity to damage, which it does not.

[FMArthur]

I agree that it does work. If only it had said the Constitution damage, then it would be referring to its own Constitution damage and not Constitution damage in general. I certainly wouldn't allow it as a DM though, as the RAI is fairly obvious and clear in purpose.

[Douglas]

RAW does not define what 'somehow immune to Constitution damage' means. The text does not read 'immune to Constitution damage', it reads 'somehow immune'.
What. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat)

The word 'somehow' does not in any way alter the actual meaning of that phrase. It adds a connotation that the speaker is unaware or guessing as to the details of how, but that's it. The "immune to constitution damage" part still means exactly the same thing, and the addition of 'somehow' does not change it.


Again, this debate has been going on for years. I've participated in most such threads on 339. There is no clear cut answer for this and saying 'RAW is perfectly blatantly abundantly clear that it works' is an insult to everyone who invested time and energy into trying to shed a light onto this issue.
There wouldn't be such a long heated debate if RAW was perfectly blatantly abundantly clear that it works. Period.
Raging debates exist because there are a significant number of people who will go to great lengths and extreme stretches of wording to try to insist their version of RAI and RAPOA (Rules As Prevents Obvious Abuse) are in fact RAW, rather than admitting that RAW might be silly, nonsensical, or abusable and need correcting with house rules. I have seen this happen with quite a number of rules over the years, this is just one more of them.

[SurlySeraph]

What. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat)

The word 'somehow' does not in any way alter the actual meaning of that phrase. It adds a connotation that the speaker is unaware or guessing as to the details of how, but that's it. The "immune to constitution damage" part still means exactly the same thing, and the addition of 'somehow' does not change it.

"Somehow immune" is more ambiguous than "immune," and it's less clearly defined. It extends it to apply to means of not taking Con damage other than ones that simply state "You are immune to Con damage." It's not a major difference, but it's slightly more inclusive than just "immune" would be.
Still, I agree with FMArthur that since it doesn't say "the Constitution damage," by RAW it appears that the Strongheart Vest trick works, since it acts as immunity to the HW Con damage but not to Con damage in general.

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay then which spell would you use to heal the con damage every round? Eldritch Blasts are standard actions which would leave you with a move and a swift action to use to cast a spell. Using the Naberius vestige's ability is a non-action so you don't have to waste your remaining actions and you don't have to waste your spell slots on essentially in combat healing. Also the 9th level spells don't come into play for that build until level 19, mainly because that build has the hellfire warlock levels right at the level you qualify for them instead of going for the 9th level spells first.

You missed my point completely. I said you didn't NEED to auto-heal the Con damage. You don't need in-combat healing, just pop a restoration after everything is dead.

[Tael]

I actually think that the Demons or Devils that you made the hellfire pact with would much prefer Strongheart Vest to the Naberious trick. In one, you're paying your debt with the soul essence of the universe, with the second you're enlisting the help of a vestige to heal yourself faster. Since we have no idea what the Con damage is supposed to mean by RAW, it's impossible to argue RAI but I think this makes the most sense.

[Kyouhen]

One of my friends is using the Bloodline rules with a Hellfire Warlock. Or will be, he isn't into Hellfire yet. The idea is that the Bloodlines count towards any level-based calculations for class abilities, and Hellfire Warlocks do +2d6/level. So he'll end up going a fair bit above the +6d6 that a normal Hellfire would get.

[Douglas]

One of my friends is using the Bloodline rules with a Hellfire Warlock. Or will be, he isn't into Hellfire yet. The idea is that the Bloodlines count towards any level-based calculations for class abilities, and Hellfire Warlocks do +2d6/level. So he'll end up going a fair bit above the +6d6 that a normal Hellfire would get.
Is he planning on the other standard Hellfire optimization tricks, namely Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster? You can get some impressive dice totals at high levels with those.

[Kyouhen]

Is he planning on the other standard Hellfire optimization tricks, namely Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster? You can get some impressive dice totals at high levels with those.

No clue, don't think I've heard him mention those yet. What tricks may those be?... Waaait a minute, Legacy Champion was the guy that got stupid awesome bonuses from Legacy Weapons didn't they? If that's the case then yes, he's using that. He's already gotten a weapon for it too. Not sure what the Uncanny Trickster trick is though.

[FMArthur]

They advance your existing class features as if you'd gained a level in another class you have. And... wait, he's using Hellfire alongside actual Legacy Weapons? Really? :smallconfused:

[Kyouhen]

They advance your existing class features as if you'd gained a level in another class you have. And... wait, he's using Hellfire alongside actual Legacy Weapons? Really? :smallconfused:

High-power campaign and the weapon in question gives even more unpleasant boosts to his blast. (The weakest ability lets him divide his d6's between multiple targets) It's power scales as the campaign goes on, and it's likely to kill him before much longer anyway. It kinda eats souls and it'll be interesting to see how long he can keep it fed. That and it's a weapon of the Elven apocalypse, so he's kinda screwed when we start dealing with elves (which won't be much longer)

[Douglas]

No clue, don't think I've heard him mention those yet. What tricks may those be?... Waaait a minute, Legacy Champion was the guy that got stupid awesome bonuses from Legacy Weapons didn't they? If that's the case then yes, he's using that. He's already gotten a weapon for it too. Not sure what the Uncanny Trickster trick is though.
Legacy Champion does have some stuff related to Legacy Weapons, but the important thing for Hellfire Warlock is that most of its levels advance a previous class's class features. Sort of like all the casting PrCs, except instead of spells per day, spells known, and caster level, it advances "class features". In other words, everything (except BAB, hit points, saves, and skill points), which includes Hellfire damage dice - and the "as if you had gained a level in X" language technically doesn't care about whether gaining another level in the chosen class is actually possible, so if you take Legacy Champion to the end (7 of its 10 levels advance class features of a previous class) you end up with the abilities of a 10th level Hellfire Warlock. 2d6/level = 20d6 Hellfire.

Uncanny Trickster is from Complete Scoundrel, I think, and it's a 3 level class where 2 of its levels have the same advance-another-class thing as Legacy Champion.

Combine both of them plus bloodlines plus actual Hellfire Warlock levels plus non-Hellfire base Eldritch Blast damage (which is advanced by Hellfire Warlock, and thus Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster too) plus the magic item that gives +2d6 Eldritch Blast, and you have a really huge fistfull - or two - of damage dice.

Now combine all of that with Eldritch Glaive for full attack Eldritch Blasts... Granted, that limits you to 10' range, but it's still a ton of damage.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You missed my point completely. I said you didn't NEED to auto-heal the Con damage. You don't need in-combat healing, just pop a restoration after everything is dead.

Too risky, every two rounds (or even every round if you use the hellfire shield) you will lose HP equal to your level, and you will send your Fort saves (usually the most important) somewhere near the negatives. Healing them as you take the damage (via naberious or Strongheart vest) is the less risky option. A familiar with a readied action to por a wand of lesser restoration on you each round is also pretty good; though it gets pricey after some levels.


I actually think that the Demons or Devils that you made the hellfire pact with would much prefer Strongheart Vest to the Naberious trick. In one, you're paying your debt with the soul essence of the universe, with the second you're enlisting the help of a vestige to heal yourself faster. Since we have no idea what the Con damage is supposed to mean by RAW, it's impossible to argue RAI but I think this makes the most sense.

Devils, hellfire comes from a pact with Mephisto lord of Cania, the eight infernal circle.

[Kyouhen]

Legacy Champion does have some stuff related to Legacy Weapons, but the important thing for Hellfire Warlock is that most of its levels advance a previous class's class features. Sort of like all the casting PrCs, except instead of spells per day, spells known, and caster level, it advances "class features". In other words, everything (except BAB, hit points, saves, and skill points), which includes Hellfire damage dice - and the "as if you had gained a level in X" language technically doesn't care about whether gaining another level in the chosen class is actually possible, so if you take Legacy Champion to the end (7 of its 10 levels advance class features of a previous class) you end up with the abilities of a 10th level Hellfire Warlock. 2d6/level = 20d6 Hellfire.

Uncanny Trickster is from Complete Scoundrel, I think, and it's a 3 level class where 2 of its levels have the same advance-another-class thing as Legacy Champion.

Combine both of them plus bloodlines plus actual Hellfire Warlock levels plus non-Hellfire base Eldritch Blast damage (which is advanced by Hellfire Warlock, and thus Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster too) plus the magic item that gives +2d6 Eldritch Blast, and you have a really huge fistfull - or two - of damage dice.

Now combine all of that with Eldritch Glaive for full attack Eldritch Blasts... Granted, that limits you to 10' range, but it's still a ton of damage.

Huh, those do both advance the normal blast don't they? Well those have an advantage over the bloodlines in that respect, we came to the conclusion that since the eldritch blast didn't have a "x damage/level" wording that the bloodline wouldn't affect it.

[Psyren]

Let's all just agree to disagree on the Strongheart Vest thing until two or more of us are actually at the same gaming table :smalltongue:

It's possible you guys scared off the OP but I'll just respond to this:


Warlock requires a lot of optimizing to get something decent. It's really not worth taking imo.

Honestly that depends on your definition of "decent" - and also your definition of "a lot." I definitely think Warlocks are worth it. The crafting means they can fit into any party, and sometimes it can be nice having a caster around who never runs out of ammunition.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, HFW really shines when you use Bloodlines/Legacy Champion to boost your Hellfire Blast damage output FAR beyond the 6d6, ending up in numbers only challenged by a moderately optimized Ubercharger.

However, that's just if you want to throw around handfuls of dice every time you attack. Warlocks can do so much *more*, based on your choice of invocations

First off, he can be the Magic Item Mart with a two level dip in Chameleon. Granted, this combo doesn't go off until ECL 14 (Warlock12/Chameleon2), but it pretty much nets you access to any magic item in the game that doesn't require more than one feat. Basically, use the floating feat to emulate whatever feat was necessary to craft it. Want to make a Ring of Blinking for your Rogue buddy? Fine, Forge Ring it is. Want to toss Fortification on the tank's mithral full plate? Well, once you get done with the ring, you switch it out to Craft Arms and Armor. When not crafting, it's a floating invocation, thanks to the Extra Invocation feat.

Warlocks also get some pretty decent shut-down abilities as well. Hindering Blast = slow + blast damage. Chilling Tentacles = black tentacles + cold damage. Bewitching Blast = Confusion + blast damage. Fearful Blast = Fear + Blast Damage.

You see where this is going, I hope?

Warlocks also get Detect Magic as an at-will ability, which is situationally handy, and can take 10 on UMD checks, which unique among non-Tier1 classes (Artificer being the other one).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Huh, those do both advance the normal blast don't they? Well those have an advantage over the bloodlines in that respect, we came to the conclusion that since the eldritch blast didn't have a "x damage/level" wording that the bloodline wouldn't affect it.

As per Complete Arcane page 18



WARLOCKS AND PRESTIGE CLASSES
Warlocks benefi t in a specifi c way from prestige classes that have “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1 level of existing spellcasting class” as a level advancement benefi t.
A warlock taking levels in such a prestige class does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain an increased caster level when using his invocations and increased damage with his eldritch blast.
Levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the warlock’s level to determine his eldritch blast damage (treat his combined caster level as his warlock class level when looking at Table 1–1: The Warlock to determine eldritch blast damage) and his eldritch blast caster level (half his total caster level from his warlock levels and his levels in the prestige class that grant him an increased spellcasting level).
A warlock also gains new invocations known at these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level in the warlock class.

[Kyouhen]

As per Complete Arcane page 18

Is that in regards to the Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster or the bloodline? :smallconfused:

I know that the Champion and Trickster could improve the Warlock's powers, it just hadn't occurred to me to use that.

I don't think bloodlines increase the blast though, as it's powers seem locked in to increase at certain levels instead of being a calculation and the wording for them pretty clearly says it applies to calculations. That's just me nitpicking about wording though, and our DM decided that that seemed to be the right interpretation.

[Douglas]

Bloodlines do not increase normal Eldritch Blast damage. The quote Dusk Eclipse provided is referring to things that advance spells known and spells per day, which bloodlines do not do.

Eldritch Blast advancement is dictated by a table rather than a formula, and that's enough to make bloodlines not affect it.

Hellfire Blast is a formula (2d6 per level, specifically), so it does benefit from bloodlines.

[Veyr]

Warlocks [...] can take 10 on UMD checks, which unique among non-Tier1 classes (Artificer being the other one).
Uh... Rogue?

[MammonAzrael]

Uh... Rogue?

Rogue can't take 10 on UMD, since you can't take 10 normally. Their skill mastery doesn't change this. (Unless, of course, there is an official answer saying you it does let you take 10 with UMD)

[Veyr]

The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.
"Even under adverse conditions" means that those don't stop a Rogue from using them; nothing in this sentence even begins to imply that being able to take-10 on the skill in not-adverse conditions is a requirement, that I can see. If it was something like "Adverse conditions do not prevent a Rogue from taking-10 in these skills", then I'd agree with you (since the presence or lack of adverse conditions does not affect UMD), but it doesn't say that.

[Worira]

The relevant wording in there is "Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time. "

Saying it lets you take 10 on skills that you usually can't is like saying "Well, Great Cleave doesn't say it DOESN'T turn you into a pink hippo."

[Veyr]

Wow, I feel dumb; I copied and pasted less than half the description. I cede the point, you're right.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bloodlines will not advance EB, as written.

Bloodlines *WILL*, however, advance Hellfire Warlock's '+1 Spellcaster Level at every level', since that IS a level-dependent effect. And bonuses to spellcaster level increase the Eldritch Blast damage.

[Douglas]

Bloodlines explicitly A) increase caster level and B) do not increase spells per day or spells known. The latter is what is relevant for advancing Eldritch Blast.

[Garagos]

I used a slight variation of HFW in an evil campaign my buddy was running for us. I asked if I could change the Hellfire to Shadowpower as I felt like this was more on par with a warlock. Everything else was left the same except for the fire resistance (I think the class gives FR, not sure don't have the book now) which we just got rid of. Another reason I wanted this was because I took an Epic Warlock feat that turned my whole body shadowy for 50% miss chances (also granted Shades spell, forget the feat name).

As for the Con damage thing, I know my DM and I agreed that if my character was immune to Con damage in any way that I couldn't empower my EB with the extra 6d6. I know if I was DMing I'd rule the same way.

[Veyr]

That's not so much a "ruling" so much as "the rules" - it specifically says if you're immune to Con damage, you can't use it.

But with Naberius, you're not immune. You do take the damage. You just heal the damage at rate of 1/round, meaning that Con damage is massively less dangerous.

[Kyouhen]

Bloodlines explicitly A) increase caster level and B) do not increase spells per day or spells known. The latter is what is relevant for advancing Eldritch Blast.

I was under the impression that the increased caster level is no different than other items and abilities that let you boost your caster level. Useful for breaking spell resistance and whatnot, but not for getting more spells.

[Douglas]

I was under the impression that the increased caster level is no different than other items and abilities that let you boost your caster level. Useful for breaking spell resistance and whatnot, but not for getting more spells.
That's exactly my point. The bloodline bonus increases caster level but does not get you more spells. Advancing Eldritch Blast damage comes from things that would normally get you more spells, so bloodlines do not advance EB.

[Kyouhen]

That's exactly my point. The bloodline bonus increases caster level but does not get you more spells. Advancing Eldritch Blast damage comes from things that would normally get you more spells, so bloodlines do not advance EB.

Whoops, sorry. Misread what you had posted. I thought you were saying the increased caster level is what was relevant. :smallredface: