Do you enjoy being called a munchkin, how does it make you feel?

[Matamane]

Have you ever had other players at the table call you a powergamer, or a munchkin, or scrutinize you specifically in isolation for things that are "broken"? How are you supposed to feel when that happens, and how does one deal with it?

More so, what would you do if the party and DM as a group told you what kind of character to play, what build to use, and what race/class combination that you had to use? Similarly, what if you were given a stricter standard of rules to play by, a more limited selection of books, or the like, while being told you have bad judgement, make broken character, and should be happy and not take it personally?

These kinds of things have happened to me a few times, unfairly so in my opinion, and I want the playground's opinion.

I'm putting the big offender here for now.

After a previous character died, I decided to try a monster class, which the DM accepted. I was then offered the chance to try an alternate magic system, and was given an ideal build by the DM, one which I tweaked ever so slightly. I got rid of what I considered to be a pointless and self serving multiclass level. I was also given naked defense rules, as per DM recommendation I had a custom feat again which was okay'd in full by the DM. I built it with no frills added, essentially out of box. I roleplayed well, I thought it was fine, and then I got a load of crap after the session. It's too powerful, I can't kill it, it's better than us at almost everything. I didn't read that part of it when I ok'd it or showed it to you. Here's the sheet if you are interested.

A few notes,

4 days before the session, I showed him the completed sheet, and he confirmed it a final time.
The system we used was a pathfinder gestalt hybrid, and I was using the Slayers d20 magic system as he recommended. For those of you who don't know, the magic system revolves around fortitude saves. I was told on several occasions that in the world, trolls are the best mages as a result.
The only enemies he sent us against that session was undead
I was told I roleplayed well and within my vow's guidelines especially considering the all evil party.

Emura
Nymph|Priest 3/Loremaster 2/Shrine Maiden 2
CG Medium fey
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +16
Aura blinding beauty (30 ft., DC 31), calming aura (20 ft., DC 31)
Defense
AC 44, touch 40, flat-footed 33 (+13 deflection , +7 Dex, +2 exalted*, +2 natural, +6 nudity, +4 Defense)
hp 84 (8d6+56)
Fort +37, Ref +40, Will +38
DR 10/cold iron
Offense
Speed 30 ft., swim 20 ft.
Melee
Special Attacks stunning glance
Special Qualities defense barrier +15
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th)
1/day—dimension door
Spellcasting(CL 7th) 32 slots, 32 used
Common Spells (Fort +42, control +16, base DC = 19 + one-fifth spell DC + 4 if the spell does not deal damage (including ability damage but not nonlethal damage), bestow negative levels, or cause death)
aqua create, dash, healing, levitation, force push, mind control, sleeping, fireball, iceball, identify
Shamanist Spells (Fort +39, control +12, base DC = 15 + one-fifth spell DC+ 4 if the spell does not deal damage (including ability damage but not nonlethal damage), bestow negative levels, or cause death)
monobolt, golem, petrify, sphere of earth, sea blast
Sorcery Spells (Fort +37, control +13, base DC = 16 + one-fifth spell DC+ 4 if the spell does not deal damage (including ability damage but not nonlethal damage), bestow negative levels, or cause death)
domination
White Magic Spells (Fort +36, control +20, base DC = 23 + one-fifth spell DC+ 4 if the spell does not deal damage (including ability damage but not nonlethal damage), bestow negative levels, or cause death)
telekinesis, illusion, dimensional portal, time stop, protection, resurrection, recovery, flow break, flow twist
Statistics
Str 13, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 36
Base Atk +4; CMB +11; CMD 46
Feats Augment Summoning, Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Subdual Spell
Traits Extremely Fasionable, Sacred Touch
Skills Acrobatics +18, Bluff +25, Diplomacy +31, Fly +15, Heal +12, Intimidate +21, Knowledge(Arcana) +14, Knowledge(Nature) +17, Knowledge(Religion) +14, Perception +16, Sense Motive +16,
Spellcraft +17, Summoning +17, Use Magic Device +24, Vision +16
Languages Common, Sylvan
SQ inspiration, unearthly grace, wild empathy +26
Special Abilities
Blinding Beauty (Su) This ability affects all humanoids within 30 feet of Emura. Those who look directly at a nymph must succeed on a DC 31 Fortitude save or be blinded permanently. A nymph can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Calming Aura (Su) Emura is constantly surrounded by a calming aura to a radius of 20 feet. Creatures within the aura must make a successful DC 31 Will save or be affected as by the calm emotions spell. Creatures who leave the aura and reenter it receive new saving throws. A creature that makes a successful saving throw and remains in the aura is unaffected until it leaves the aura and reenters. The aura is a mind-affecting, supernatural compulsion. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Inspiration (Su) Emura can choose an intelligent creature to inspire and serve as a muse by giving that creature some token of her affection (typically a lock of her hair). As long as Emura retains her favor for this creature and as long as the creature carries the Emrua's token, the creature gains a +4 insight bonus on all Will saving throws, Craft checks, and Perform checks. A bard who has Emura for a muse in this way can use his bardic performance for an additional number of rounds per day equal to Emura's Charisma modifier. Emura retains a link to her token and its carrier as if she had cast a status spell on the carrier. Emura can end this effect at any time as a free action. Emura may only inspire one creature at a time in this manner.
Spells Emura begins play with 10 spell slots dedicated to Common Spells, and 4 spell slots dedicated to Shamanist Spells. In addition, she may add a +5 bonus on Fortitude saves made to cast Common spells, and a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves made to cast Shamanist spells. Emura is treated as a 5th level Witch and a 2nd level Shaman for purposes of spellcasting. Emura may learn any type of spells (common, shamanist, sorcery, or white magic). Shamanist and common spells are her specialty. Taking levels in either class advances her spellcasting and Magical Training or Shamanist Focus abilities, but not any other abilities of the class.
Stunning Glance (Su) As a standard action, Emura can stun a creature within 30 feet with a look. The target must succeed on a DC 31 Fortitude save or be stunned for 2d4 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Unearthly Grace (Su) Emura adds her Charisma modifier as a racial bonus on all her saving throws, and as a deflection bonus to her Armor Class.
Weapon Repulsion (Su) If a creature strikes Emura with a manufactured weapon, the weapon must immediately make a successful DC 27 Fortitude save or shatter against her skin, leaving her unharmed.
Wild Empathy (Su) This works like the druid's wild empathy class feature, except Emura has a +6 racial bonus on the check. Emura's effective druid level is equal to her HD for determining her total modifer to the check.
Detect Evil (Sp) At will, Emura can sense the evil in another person. This requires a Sense Motive check (DC 15). The target may oppose this check with a Bluff skill check of his or her own. Success on the Sense Motive check allows the priest to discern whether the individual is a good or evil person.
Smite Evil (Su) Once per day, Emura can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, Emura chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, Emura adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her priest level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If Emura targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect
Divine Grace (Su) Emura gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all Saving Throws.
Lay On Hands (Su) Emura can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her priest level times her Charisma bonus. Emura may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.
Divine Health (Ex) Emura is immune to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Defense Barrier Emura can establish a defense barrier to protect herself against magic attacks.

Equipment:

Bikini Top of Charisma
-Bag of Tricks Gray
-Bag of Holding I

Bikini Bottom of Constitution

[dsmiles]

Well, to clear the air a bit, powergamers and munchkins are not exactly the same. Munchkins are the ones who actually try to play the "Pun-Pun"s and "Fred the Diplomancer"s. Powergamers simply try to squeeze every point out of a build.

They're two different gamer archetypes: Powergamers being acceptable, and munchkins being unacceptable.

Personally, I've never been called either, but being called a munchkin might make me angry.

Being called a powergamer is more like being called a white guy, when you actually are a white male. It's more a statement of fact than an insult, as far as I'm concerned. It's like being called a "casual gamer." (Which is what I happen to be.) I'd never take offense to being called a casual gamer or a powergamer (if I ever happened to become one).

[Matamane]

For me, its a result of poor party balance. When you have a party of 4 skill monkeys, and then a dedicated spellcaster or fighter comes along, its a bad excuse to say something's op. I'm called both for the same reasons.

[dsmiles]

Remind the other players that's it's a cooperative game. If they're incapable of defeating the encounters, they need someone who can.

I say "defeating", not "killing", because killing everything isn't always the solution that gives the most benefit to the party.

[The Glyphstone]

Firstly, it sounds like your other players are jerks, and you should find another group.

As for the issue, I prefer a three-part distiction: Optimizers vs. Powergamers vs. Munchkins.

Optimizers and powergamers are pretty indistinguishable from the outside, split more by motivation - optimization is picking something and being the best you can possibly be at it, and can start from either the mechanics or fluff side; powergaming is more concerned with being better than everyone else, and almost invariably starts and finishes with mechanics plus some tacked-on fluff. Munchkins are the Punpuners, the Diplomancers, and the outright cheaters.

I proudly claim myself to be an optimizer in any sort of discussion on the topic, because it's true and it's fun to do. Being called a powergamer - usually by people who are worse at it than I am - gets the above explanation. No one's ever seriously called me a munchkin outside of jest.

[Matamane]

Kind of lost on the party. Arguments like, the party can't kill you character seems like a valid reason it should be banned. Ignore the fact that as a result of healing magic only she could provide saved the entire party in 2 encounters, where they would otherwise have died guaranteed.

However, this isn't about discussions like this, its about how I as a player should react to this kind of situation.

[dsmiles]

As for the issue, I prefer a three-part distiction: Optimizers vs. Powergamers vs. Munchkins.

Kind of like the distinction between Casual Gamers, Non-Optimizers, and Stormwinders, eh? (Except that no one seems to care about my end of the spectrum. :smalltongue:)

[The Glyphstone]

Kind of lost on the party. Arguments like, the party can't kill you character seems like a valid reason it should be banned. Ignore the fact that as a result of healing magic only she could provide saved the entire party in 2 encounters, where they would otherwise have died guaranteed.

However, this isn't about discussions like this, its about how I as a player should react to this kind of situation.

How you as a player should react is to leave the group. They're hostile and rude to you, and seem to think that they should be able to kill you if you get 'uppity' by doing anything they don't like, not to mention completely ungrateful if your renditions are accurate.


Kind of like the distinction between Casual Gamers, Non-Optimizers, and Stormwinders, eh? (Except that no one seems to care about my end of the spectrum. :smalltongue:)

Eh, I suppose. I prefer to think of it more like the distinction between Light Jedi, Dark Jedi, and Sith.:smallwink:

[Dusk Eclipse]

No I don't:smallannoyed:

My group definitely has used the term munchkin on me various times, and I tell you even when used in jest it becomes annoying in short time. I consider myself an optimizer (following the Glyphstone definition).

[FMArthur]

I myself love to optimize character builds but often get a little annoyed at people who continually push for having the most powerful character they can possibly get away with. That said, I've never actually been in a group I couldn't work around. Gauging the group's power level and viewpoints to work around instead of trying to convince a whole group of people that charop and roleplay are not mutually exclusive is easier and less disruptive by such a ludicrously huge margin that pushing against their inclination to the best of your ability just seems silly at best and makes you look like an ass at worst. Pulling out the Ubercharger because a group won't let you use ToB will wind up making your group even more annoyed at you, not less. It's just baffling to find people who don't get that.

[Matamane]

Im an optimizer as well, and a damn good one. I generally start with fluff though.

I'll give you the full details though.

After a previous character died, I decided to try a monster class, which the DM accepted. I was then offered the chance to try an alternate magic system, and was given an ideal build by the DM, one which I tweaked ever so slightly. I got rid of what I considered to be a pointless and self serving multiclass level. I was also given naked defense rules, as per DM recommendation I had a custom feat again which was okay'd in full by the DM. I built it with no frills added, essentially out of box. I roleplayed well, I thought it was fine, and then I got a load of crap after the session. It's too powerful, I can't kill it, it's better than us at almost everything. I didn't read that part of it when I ok'd it or showed it to you. Here's the sheet if you are interested.

A few notes,

4 days before the session, I showed him the completed sheet, and he confirmed it a final time.
The system we used was a pathfinder gestalt hybrid, and I was using the Slayers d20 magic system as he recommended. For those of you who don't know, the magic system revolves around fortitude saves. I was told on several occasions that in the world, trolls are the best mages as a result.
The only enemies he sent us against that session was undead
I was told I roleplayed well and within my vow's guidelines especially considering the all evil party.

Emura
Nymph|Priest 3/Loremaster 2/Shrine Maiden 2
CG Medium fey
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +16
Aura blinding beauty (30 ft., DC 31), calming aura (20 ft., DC 31)
Defense
AC 44, touch 40, flat-footed 33 (+13 deflection , +7 Dex, +2 exalted*, +2 natural, +6 nudity, +4 Defense)
hp 84 (8d6+56)
Fort +37, Ref +40, Will +38
DR 10/cold iron
Offense
Speed 30 ft., swim 20 ft.
Melee
Special Attacks stunning glance
Special Qualities defense barrier +15
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th)
1/day—dimension door
Spellcasting(CL 7th) 32 slots, 32 used
Common Spells (Fort +42, control +16, base DC = 19 + one-fifth spell DC + 4 if the spell does not deal damage (including ability damage but not nonlethal damage), bestow negative levels, or cause death)
aqua create, dash, healing, levitation, force push, mind control, sleeping, fireball, iceball, identify
Shamanist Spells (Fort +39, control +12, base DC = 15 + one-fifth spell DC+ 4 if the spell does not deal damage (including ability damage but not nonlethal damage), bestow negative levels, or cause death)
monobolt, golem, petrify, sphere of earth, sea blast
Sorcery Spells (Fort +37, control +13, base DC = 16 + one-fifth spell DC+ 4 if the spell does not deal damage (including ability damage but not nonlethal damage), bestow negative levels, or cause death)
domination
White Magic Spells (Fort +36, control +20, base DC = 23 + one-fifth spell DC+ 4 if the spell does not deal damage (including ability damage but not nonlethal damage), bestow negative levels, or cause death)
telekinesis, illusion, dimensional portal, time stop, protection, resurrection, recovery, flow break, flow twist
Statistics
Str 13, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 36
Base Atk +4; CMB +11; CMD 46
Feats Augment Summoning, Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Subdual Spell
Traits Extremely Fasionable, Sacred Touch
Skills Acrobatics +18, Bluff +25, Diplomacy +31, Fly +15, Heal +12, Intimidate +21, Knowledge(Arcana) +14, Knowledge(Nature) +17, Knowledge(Religion) +14, Perception +16, Sense Motive +16,
Spellcraft +17, Summoning +17, Use Magic Device +24, Vision +16
Languages Common, Sylvan
SQ inspiration, unearthly grace, wild empathy +26
Special Abilities
Blinding Beauty (Su) This ability affects all humanoids within 30 feet of Emura. Those who look directly at a nymph must succeed on a DC 31 Fortitude save or be blinded permanently. A nymph can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Calming Aura (Su) Emura is constantly surrounded by a calming aura to a radius of 20 feet. Creatures within the aura must make a successful DC 31 Will save or be affected as by the calm emotions spell. Creatures who leave the aura and reenter it receive new saving throws. A creature that makes a successful saving throw and remains in the aura is unaffected until it leaves the aura and reenters. The aura is a mind-affecting, supernatural compulsion. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Inspiration (Su) Emura can choose an intelligent creature to inspire and serve as a muse by giving that creature some token of her affection (typically a lock of her hair). As long as Emura retains her favor for this creature and as long as the creature carries the Emrua's token, the creature gains a +4 insight bonus on all Will saving throws, Craft checks, and Perform checks. A bard who has Emura for a muse in this way can use his bardic performance for an additional number of rounds per day equal to Emura's Charisma modifier. Emura retains a link to her token and its carrier as if she had cast a status spell on the carrier. Emura can end this effect at any time as a free action. Emura may only inspire one creature at a time in this manner.
Spells Emura begins play with 10 spell slots dedicated to Common Spells, and 4 spell slots dedicated to Shamanist Spells. In addition, she may add a +5 bonus on Fortitude saves made to cast Common spells, and a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves made to cast Shamanist spells. Emura is treated as a 5th level Witch and a 2nd level Shaman for purposes of spellcasting. Emura may learn any type of spells (common, shamanist, sorcery, or white magic). Shamanist and common spells are her specialty. Taking levels in either class advances her spellcasting and Magical Training or Shamanist Focus abilities, but not any other abilities of the class.
Stunning Glance (Su) As a standard action, Emura can stun a creature within 30 feet with a look. The target must succeed on a DC 31 Fortitude save or be stunned for 2d4 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Unearthly Grace (Su) Emura adds her Charisma modifier as a racial bonus on all her saving throws, and as a deflection bonus to her Armor Class.
Weapon Repulsion (Su) If a creature strikes Emura with a manufactured weapon, the weapon must immediately make a successful DC 27 Fortitude save or shatter against her skin, leaving her unharmed.
Wild Empathy (Su) This works like the druid's wild empathy class feature, except Emura has a +6 racial bonus on the check. Emura's effective druid level is equal to her HD for determining her total modifer to the check.
Detect Evil (Sp) At will, Emura can sense the evil in another person. This requires a Sense Motive check (DC 15). The target may oppose this check with a Bluff skill check of his or her own. Success on the Sense Motive check allows the priest to discern whether the individual is a good or evil person.
Smite Evil (Su) Once per day, Emura can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, Emura chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, Emura adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her priest level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If Emura targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect
Divine Grace (Su) Emura gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all Saving Throws.
Lay On Hands (Su) Emura can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her priest level times her Charisma bonus. Emura may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.
Divine Health (Ex) Emura is immune to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Defense Barrier Emura can establish a defense barrier to protect herself against magic attacks.

Equipment:

Bikini Top of Charisma
-Bag of Tricks Gray
-Bag of Holding I

Bikini Bottom of Constitution


Other party members were a dark darkstalker swordsage warblade, a savant soulknife duskblade rogue master inquisitive, and a BESM designed immortal who cannot die.

[Firechanter]

Have you ever had other players at the table call you a powergamer, or a munchkin, or scrutinize you specifically in isolation for things that are "broken"? How are you supposed to feel when that happens, and how does one deal with it?

As dsmiles has pointed out, munchkin and powergamer are not the same thing. I am sometimes called a powergamer and I don't mind that. I would strongly mind being called a munchkin because that's certainly not true.

"Powergamer" is all relative. Compared to the people I normally play with, I am a powergamer. Compared to a lot of the people who post regularly on these boards, I am a total noob.


More so, what would you do if the party and DM as a group told you what kind of character to play, what build to use, and what race/class combination that you had to use?

Unless that happens to coincide with my own preferences, I can't be having with that at all. I want to choose my own character to play. It's fine if the DM says "The party could use a Y" or "It would be great if you did X", but if he just hands me a character sheet with a concept I don't like, I am not playing.

[dsmiles]

"Advanced d20 Magic" is the system (and book) by BESM. The Slayers d20 was the first setting to incorporate it into its main rule set. It's the most fun magic system I've ever had the pleasure of using.

[Lord_Gareth]

I think also that what your group sees depends on how you present yourself. My group(s), for example, have never called me a powergamer, optimizer, or munchkin, despite their thorough awareness of my optimization talents (which I am, incidentally, about to use against them in an arena-type setup); the key is to play to the level of your group. They don't optimize at all and neither do the other DMs in town, so I scale back my builds and refrain from carpet bombing elven settlements with gelatinous cubes. If you don't want to scale yourself back, try getting them to scale up, politely and helping them along the way.

[Veyr]

"Munchkin" is an insult, and anyone who calls you that (except in jest) is insulting you, intentionally. I don't think anyone would use the term non-derogatorily. As such, I would very much not appreciate it if people I'm playing with (people I hopefully consider friends) used the term.

Powergamer I'll accept, optimizer I'll embrace.

[Matamane]

It's an awesome magic system. And rather than have say a +20 fortitude item, I used my whole other progression to not only flesh out the flavor side, but also use the magic competently.

End result is I have to change the character. My proposed fixes of making it not gestalt, switching back to basic nymph, switching to a different race, none were accepted, and I had what I am going to play next dictated to me. Any change I wanted to make had to be okay'd by the party in a, are you guys ok if he plays that manner?

[Swordguy]

I think also that what your group sees depends on how you present yourself. My group(s), for example, have never called me a powergamer, optimizer, or munchkin, despite their thorough awareness of my optimization talents (which I am, incidentally, about to use against them in an arena-type setup); the key is to play to the level of your group. They don't optimize at all and neither do the other DMs in town, so I scale back my builds and refrain from carpet bombing elven settlements with gelatinous cubes. If you don't want to scale yourself back, try getting them to scale up, politely and helping them along the way.

This right here is the right answer.

It is up to you to fit in with the group in which you have chosen to play. If they don't optimize (Glyphstone Definition) because they are ignorant of the possibilities of the rules, inform them (DON'T just break it out in-game!) of what the rules can do, but if they then decide not to optimize themselves, you need to respect that and scale yourself back. If they do like what you've shown them, then great! Figure out a preferred power level for the game and optimize to your heart's content within that stricture. If they have decided not to optimize because they just don't like doing it, then you need to respect that decision as well and scale down.

If they aren't powergamers, then you need to not powergame.

If they aren't munchkins, then you need to not be a munchkin.

It's that simple. YOU need to scale yourself to the majority preference of the group, or leave and find a group of like-minded people*. It's on you, not them.

*Note that this also goes for non-optimizers in optimization-heavy groups as well.

[Matamane]

The irony is that 1 member has loudly proclaimed he is munchkinning, and will be awesome at level 15, but sucky until then. The other is impossible to pin down. Generally he says any brokeness or funny is purely accidental, but then again, TOB multiclass

[Tyndmyr]

Have you ever had other players at the table call you a powergamer, or a munchkin, or scrutinize you specifically in isolation for things that are "broken"? How are you supposed to feel when that happens, and how does one deal with it?

Munchkin I would likely take offense to. It implies a casual "does it benefit me" approach to adhering to the rules, and I like rules, I like them very much.

A powergamer, I would disagree with...but not all that much. I don't always make characters seeking power, but I have where it made thematic sense. I do have a certain degree of optimization-fu, and can certainly make characters quite competent, even outside their usual niche. Today, I decided Im going to write a guide to optimizing in 7th Sea.

Scrutiny would be taken in the spirit given. GMs and such are always welcome to look over my sheet, and anything questionable will be asked about in advance. I'm also always happy to explain how I did something, either to a GM or a player, and giving advice is something I do whenever someone wants it.

But if it's just name calling or "that MUST be cheating" without bothering to, yknow, understand anything, I'll probably not enjoy it terribly much and respond in kind.

[Saph]

Various people have had a shot at objective descriptions, but in my experience "optimiser", "powergamer", and "munchkin" all refer to pretty much the exact same thing. They're all subjective descriptions of players who try to build more-powerful-than-usual characters - "optimiser" is the positive term, "powergamer" is the neutral term, "munchkin" is the negative term.

The choice of words doesn't tell you much about the person being described, but it tells you a fair bit about the describer. So, "He's a munchkin" translates to "he tries to build powerful characters and I don't like him". "I'm an optimiser" translates to "I try to build powerful characters and I'm great". :smalltongue:

(You also get wannabe optimisers/powergamers/munchkins, who try to build really powerful characters but aren't very good at it. I've actually met more of the wannabe type than the genuine type, but that might just be me.)

[Yukitsu]

I get called all three all the time relatively in jest. Ironically, it's what I get called when my characters do something that ruins encounters, not when the build is good. Sometimes I get called that when I ask another player to do something that trivializes the encounter, because my character isn't equipped to do it.

[The Glyphstone]

Various people have had a shot at objective descriptions, but in my experience "optimiser", "powergamer", and "munchkin" all refer to pretty much the exact same thing. They're all subjective descriptions of players who try to build more-powerful-than-usual characters - "optimiser" is the positive term, "powergamer" is the neutral term, "munchkin" is the negative term.

The choice of words doesn't tell you much about the person being described, but it tells you a fair bit about the describer. So, "He's a munchkin" translates to "he tries to build powerful characters and I don't like him". "I'm an optimiser" translates to "I try to build powerful characters and I'm great". :smalltongue:

(You also get wannabe optimisers/powergamers/munchkins, who try to build really powerful characters but aren't very good at it. I've actually met more of the wannabe type than the genuine type, but that might just be me.)

Obviously, I disagree.:smallcool: I do think it's unfair though to say they're automatically the same thing, differentiated only by whether you like the person (or are the person). Optimizers and powergamers pride themselves on knowing the rules inside and out, and squeezing every last bit of utility out of the plethora of options they have available, but they strictly stick to the rules, because otherwise the challenge is gone. You'd be correct to consider optimizer/powergamer the good/bad flip of the same coin, but munchkins are a different category. They cheat, abuse the rules, add bonuses and 'forget' penalties, whatever is necessary to 'win' the game. Everyone hates munchkins, even powergamers, because they look the same to the uninitiated and make all of us look bad.
Munchkins

[dsmiles]

Munchkins
Your disposition towards munchkins is not appreciated. :smalltongue:
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/3/20/be24df86-d9d5-4090-858a-eee63a7dc39b.jpg
:smallcool:

[Tyndmyr]

Obviously, I disagree.:smallcool: I do think it's unfair though to say they're automatically the same thing, differentiated only by whether you like the person (or are the person). Optimizers and powergamers pride themselves on knowing the rules inside and out, and squeezing every last bit of utility out of the plethora of options they have available, but they strictly stick to the rules, because otherwise the challenge is gone. You'd be correct to consider optimizer/powergamer the good/bad flip of the same coin, but munchkins are a different category. They cheat, abuse the rules, add bonuses and 'forget' penalties, whatever is necessary to 'win' the game. Everyone hates munchkins, even powergamers, because they look the same to the uninitiated and make all of us look bad.
Munchkins

This. I've described people as munchkins who are not at all optimized. People with poorly built characters can fudge the rules constantly too.

[Saph]

Obviously, I disagree.:smallcool: I do think it's unfair though to say they're automatically the same thing, differentiated only by whether you like the person (or are the person)

I can see your point - if you were coming up with an objective definition they'd obviously have different meanings. It's just that in practice, I find they tend to be used subjectively. If someone calls someone else a "munchkin" it's almost invariably perjorative, and likewise "optimiser" tends to be defined extremely favourably by the people who apply it to themselves.

[The Glyphstone]

Your disposition towards munchkins is not appreciated. :smalltongue:
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/3/20/be24df86-d9d5-4090-858a-eee63a7dc39b.jpg
:smallcool:

You're joking, right? Those guys are stacked up with flaws - Short, Ugly, Poor Fashion, Squeaky Voice, Bad Hairstyle; I'll bet they didn't list the speed penalties for Short on their character sheets either.:smallsmile:



I can see your point - if you were coming up with an objective definition they'd obviously have different meanings. It's just that in practice, I find they tend to be used subjectively. If someone calls someone else a "munchkin" it's almost invariably perjorative, and likewise "optimiser" tends to be defined extremely favourably by the people who apply it to themselves.

True - though oddly, among the community I hang out with, people go to me for build advice because I'm the 'best powergamer' there.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, sure...munchkin is perjorative. That's because it describes a player that's willing to bend or break rules in search of power. For most people in gaming groups, that's a negative thing.

The negativity comes from the perception of the player, not merely if you happen to like or dislike them. I've seen powergamer frequently used to describe people both liked and disliked.

[dsmiles]

You're joking, right? Those guys are stacked up with flaws - Short, Ugly, Poor Fashion, Squeaky Voice, Bad Hairstyle; I'll bet they didn't list the speed penalties for Short on their character sheets either.:smallsmile:Wait. Those aren't the racial traits of Gnomes?

[Jair Barik]

I've had the opposite happen.
Anothe rplayer looked over my sheet and said I should drop specific items, get other items (from books I didn't even have access too) and change around some of my feats even going as far as to saying I should swap my weapon for one that was 'better' without realising it would render most of my ToB powers unusable. So just as it is annoying for players to tell you that you are too strong it is similarly annoying I find for other players to compain that you have designed your character 'wrong'.

[Quietus]

I'm well known in my group for being a powergamer, and a rules lawyer, a fact with garners me some level of respect. My friends know that I won't just crush the game for no particular reason, and whenever they're confused on a rules question, I'm the one generally asked. It's faster than fishing through the rulebooks.

As to the other question : I've been in a situation before, in a group I had here in town (my other group of friends is three hours away now). I'd joined this group to try and put down some social roots while I live in this city. I quickly found that their level of optimization is much lower than that I'm used to, despite them using gestalt rules and all sorts of stuff. So I made a straightforward character, I did use dungeoncrasher on a fighter//barbarian duergard chassis, with the sum total of my combat tricks being a Power Attack Charge and Dungeoncrasher. No fancy crap, no crazy strength shenanigans, damage geared to be roughly around the average, maybe a bit higher, than what a level-appropriate fireball would be.

I was quickly informed that my character was broken, and that I needed to "Use my class features less".

Whatever. I scaled back. Raged less frequency. Eventually, parts of the group start to drift away. I came to the game one day to be told "This player's not here, you're going to play his character today". I lived with this - despite it being a replacement of my character, not just a sideline to keep the wizard//cleric in the game.

Christmas arrived. Game went dead for a month and a half, understandable at that time of year. The time to restart the game rolled around... we get an email. "We're changing systems to pathfinder. I've rebuilt your characters. [Quietus] will be taking over the wizard//cleric" - okay, so now we're playing a game that's far more combat-centric than I like, where I can't play at the level I'd like, where I can't even have a say in a character that I play, OR any of the mechanics working around it? Yeah. I left the game.

That's where my limit is, basically. I have no problems with people giving me a theme to work around ("we're playing military people in a high magic world"), or something they require ("We need a source of healing"), or a list of books ("Core only please"). But barring one-shots, I do NOT want to play a character I've had no input in. I don't mind scaling back to match the party's power, but I want to decide HOW that's done.. not just to be handed a fighter with weapon focus, specialization, and improved crit.

[olthar]

I was called a powergamer because I decided to bring in a wiz/rogue after my character died. They felt that dipping into another class made me a powergamer.

Reality: I did it because i didn't want to drop a straight optimized wizard into a party of amazingly unoptimized characters and I figured that I could lower the power of the character by dropping in a few levels of rogue (which could also add roleplaying potential).

[Stallion]

I've often been referred to as a powergamer by multiple groups I've played with, but never a munchkin. I've often helped people with their builds, including plot-critical NPCs for a DM of mine. I take it in stride, as I try to keep everything truly legitimate, and I have to admit that the confidence some of the people I play with have in me to help them survive encounters is pretty flattering at times. I'm sure sometimes I get annoying, as I tend to correct someone when they try to do something outside of the rules, but I can live with that.

I have, however, had to restrict myself to tier 3 classes and below.... I've gone tier 1 twice, and it got EXTREMELY messy with the DM and my fellow players, as the first didn't like me neutering his encounters and the others didn't like being upstaged.

[The Glyphstone]

I was called a powergamer because I decided to bring in a wiz/rogue after my character died. They felt that dipping into another class made me a powergamer.

Reality: I did it because i didn't want to drop a straight optimized wizard into a party of amazingly unoptimized characters and I figured that I could lower the power of the character by dropping in a few levels of rogue (which could also add roleplaying potential).

...you were a wizard...you multiclassed into Rogue...and they thought that was Powergaming? Unoptimized indeed, geez.

[soir8]

I was once called a powergamer for always making multiclass characters. At the time, I'd just rolled a hexblade/paladin of slaughter. Doesn't sound much like powergaming? Well, I was also a Kobold. Yeah, sounds scary. I'd built around using Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered, which meant being a small character made me inherently un-optimized.

The guy who called me a powergamer had just rolled an elf druid whose age was carefully chosen to maximise his Wisdom. You can imagine how I laughed.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I am not a munchkin. I can't even call myself an optimizer. I'm pretty terrible at optimization. Which makes the following particularly fun:

So, I'm talking to someone online for the first time (as we're going to be in a 4e campaign online together) and he brings up 3.5 as his preferred system. So we talk about character concepts and why we prefer 3.5 to 4.0 and such... And suddenly I decide to tell him about my most ridiculous character plan. The idea is to recreate the superhero of my childhood, Static Shock. I give him the build, finishing with my favorite "Essentially, I'm running on lightning, shooting lightning, holding a whip of lightning, while surrounded by lightning." He responds with a "..."

I'd sort of expected that. It's a stupid idea, and it's a cheesy idea and one can't take it seriously. So I prepare to type in the customary "haha" to show there were no hard feelings, when his next message pops up. "muuuuuuunnnchhhhkiiiiiin". Guess what the build was? Well, he didn't know the whole build. But he sure knew half of it.



Electrokineticist 10.


Oh yeah, munchkining it up with some pyrokineticist variant. When I asked him what he meant, he said a munchkin was someone who focused entirely on build power at the complete expense of actual roleplay design. But... my build is pretty terrible, and it's done entirely so I can be a character concept? I sort of didn't press the issue.

To be honest, it sort of stings being called a munchkin, even when the accuser is being absolutely ridiculous in his claims. It implies to me that I don't enjoy roleplaying a character, and what's more, implies that my style of play makes me somehow worse at the game than them. Which hurts for people who play D&D more than other games, I think, because unlike say, chess, D&D (and similar) don't have a way to "win." There isn't supposed to be a wrong way or a better way, so long as you play by the rules as the party feels is fun and enjoy yourself. Bleh.

At the same time, I don't really mind being limited in my options when making a character. After all, one can, to an extent, optimize a monk 20. And that presents a new challenge all its own. What's more, I get that while I may be terrible, I could create a build far more devastating than my party with very little effort (well, perhaps not now, because I have been helping the party I DM get fun stuff, if not powerful stuff). I feel like limiting one's self is sort of new sort of optimization, in a way. You're building a character with certain strengths in mind, it's just now you have new limits, including "don't overshadow the party".


NOTE: As DM I do my best to make sure characters don't overshadow the others too much. Our half-ogre just got a sugliin, and now he's smacking things for 3d8+9 every round... I get that at ECL6 that's sort of lame, but the party isn't optimized, so it's really high for them. So I give them monsters which he has trouble hitting. I allow his size to get in the way of his reach... It technically is limiting his powers unfairly, but no one really knows that I do it, and the ogre still has a great few instances where he's clearly the MVP. Still, it's not quite fair to put him next to a paladin, a scout/druid (without wild shape or anything like that), a cleric (without an idea of how to play properly, so they tend to summon small elementals a lot), etc. It works out fairly well. Everyone has fun, so it's no loss to me. I get that it wouldn't work for everyone though.

[Malevolence]

If someone calls me a munchkin, I laugh at them. It shows that they do not know what words mean, because they just called me a cheater when I never cheat.

If someone calls me a powergamer or optimizer, I wait for the punchline. Those things are true. I'm just waiting for the reason why they are being pointed out.

[Jallorn]

It's an awesome magic system. And rather than have say a +20 fortitude item, I used my whole other progression to not only flesh out the flavor side, but also use the magic competently.

End result is I have to change the character. My proposed fixes of making it not gestalt, switching back to basic nymph, switching to a different race, none were accepted, and I had what I am going to play next dictated to me. Any change I wanted to make had to be okay'd by the party in a, are you guys ok if he plays that manner?

This right here? This is unreasonable and I would leave.

I'm not saying whether they were right or wrong to say you were overpowered (if they felt like the game wasn't fun, I think they were within rights to approach you civilly), but they have no right to tell you how or what to play. That is threatening to remove your enjoyment of the game.