help me challenging my players. [3.5]

[Kol Korran]

Tomer, Itay, Alon, Ariel and Guy, this is not for you, please leave.

hey playgrounders. the party i DM for has had quite fun meetings so far. the players enjoy, they have choices, i react and improvise when they are going off the beaten path, and all in all things are good. they have been melee heavy so far, but just before the last meeting two players changed characters, to a warmage and a cleric.

this made a HUGE difference. they pretty much reaped through all opposition.
for a bit more about the party here is it's composition:
1) Half giant Psiwar 5, heavy damage dealer. gets his a lot due to low AC.
2) Kalashtar (sort of a psionic human) Sorc1/ Wiz 4/ ultimae magus 1. she's uses mostly battle control and utility spells. her most favorite spell is Baleful transposition.
3) a dwarf Warmage 6: one of the new additions- a pure blaster with a lesser empower rod. due to high constitution ha the highest hp in the group.
4) Aasimar cleric 5: tons of scrolls, very effective player. moderate melee, heavy buffer and debuffer. high AC
5) a half elf rogue 2, duskblade 4: the player plays a sort of a cowardly character, and his contribution varies.

i think the character's power may come from several issues:
- each character has significantly more than the WBL (around 21,500 gp worth) equipment, mostly used for "dry bonuses" items. they however earned it. i'm not going to just take it away from them.
- 32 point buy while for most monsters and foes (other than the main villains) i use 26.
- action points, action points. they make a HUGE difference. but it's a fun mechanic.
- i'm afraid i may be poor at designing and/or executing encounters. this has come up with two major villains in the past. though the current one seems to be fine...

the last encounter in the session which was "somewhat difficult" included 8 pure blood yuan ti, 3 half bloods, (all surrounding the PCs), and a sort of a young naga (CR 7, casts as 5th level sorcerer). the party got wounded, saved all their saves (except for the half giants who failed two suggestions), but other than that pretty much creamed their foes! :smallsigh:

i'm thinking to go with less a "many mooks" approach (which fitted many melee types) and go with a "1-3 tougher monsters" approach.

it is not necessary, but if you wish to read more about the session check this link to the session recap, fast forward to "ding! ding! ding!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10580898&postcount=41)

what i ask from the playground: i wish for general advice about challenging this group, and especially anything that would fit the following themes:
- encounters in a tomb of an ancienct storm giant mage of great power (in his time necromancy was "ok". i don't want it to be just that though).
- military minions or skeletal creatures from jungle and giant creatures (Xen'dric for those who know Eberron.)
- encounters in the land of horror and bizarre (Eberron's Mournland)

thanks in advance people! :smallsmile:
if you'd be interested in the campaign log of this group, from a DMs point of view, check the link in my sig :smallbiggrin:

[Amnestic]

"Opposites" are always a fun idea to pull out at your group. Basically copied version of your party created by Magical MacGuffin #35768456 who will take them on using all the tools the party has at hand.

Or just drop a dragon on them (preferably an unusual one so they're not sure what to expect).

[Sacrieur]

- 32 point buy while for most monsters and foes (other than the main villains) i use 26.


Dear god why? Don't tell me you're throwing bugbears at them that have a str of 12.

[broli]

in my experience, if you allow them to use a pointbuild of 32, you should update the enemies to that

also, make sure the players have access to a way of returning from the death, and then trow them something you think might be to much.

it will take some time, but you need to "feel" this new party and come up with a proper challenge.

dont be afraid of killing one player.

because if the players see you doubting, they will see it, and start playing like they are immortals.

dont let them smell your fear :P

[jiriku]

If you're giving PCs 32 PB, then all elite monsters should get it as well. It's a big bump in effectiveness, so start stacking one or two class levels on each monster - it lets you specialize them a bit better for their roles, and will give them that potent 32 PB for better stats.

[Diarmuid]

Additionally, if you have a favorable HP rolling system for the players (take half +1, reroll all 1's, etc), dont simply use the 50% HP model for the monsters in the MM.

Most DM's I know simply max out HP, I usually use the 75-80% model.

[Amphetryon]

One thing to keep in mind: It's not always easy to see how challenging your encounters are against the PCs given the default paradigm that the PCs are "supposed" to win at the expense of roughly 20% of their resources in most level-appropriate fights, according to the DMG. If all of your PCs get hit for 15 HP or so in a fight at 5th level, you're really not so far off the default assumption of balance, but you may not feel like you've threatened the PCs to a great extent.

[aquaticrna]

i play with a party that sounds fairly similar to your party, what i've found works really nicely is putting a long series of relatively easy fights before any boss fight, then, for the boss fight, i use a large number of low hp, reasonably high damage mooks and one or two very high hp and slightly more damage than the mooks... this makes it so that they've used a far amount of resources before the fight, then during the fight they have to split their attention and remove the small guys and deal with the one or two bigger threats. I find that if i try to just use one big monster their burst damage is so great that it's usually dead in a round, and i have the same problem with using large groups of small enemies that you do. but mixing the two makes for a much more challenging fight.

[Skorj]

i play with a party that sounds fairly similar to your party, what i've found works really nicely is putting a long series of relatively easy fights before any boss fight, then, for the boss fight, i use a large number of low hp, reasonably high damage mooks and one or two very high hp and slightly more damage than the mooks... this makes it so that they've used a far amount of resources before the fight, then during the fight they have to split their attention and remove the small guys and deal with the one or two bigger threats. I find that if i try to just use one big monster their burst damage is so great that it's usually dead in a round, and i have the same problem with using large groups of small enemies that you do. but mixing the two makes for a much more challenging fight.

This is a good recipe IMO - I do much the same.

I like to present the players with tactical challenges - monsters that aren't so strong, but have the upper hand due to planning and circumstance - favorable terrain, entrenched, lots of prep spells, whatever. Then see how the players overcome the circumstances - always with a bias towards letting the players' plans work. The key is to not get too attached to your encounters - many of them the players will just roll over with no effort due to some clever insight. Rewarding that makes the remaining encounters that the players have to do the hard way much more satisfying.

In other words - make a set of encounters that might be challenging, rather than trying to control so much that any given encounter is sure to be.

[Kol Korran]

thanks for the input folks! i upped the regulars to 26 point buy (out of the 8-13 build they usually get), and i usually added 1-2 levels to represent elites.

as to hp adjustment- the party uses roughly 75% for their hp, and i've done the same with elites and bosses, but not with the regulars, who i kept the same.

i liked the idea of putting 1-2 tough guys with lots of mooks, would give everyone something to do. cool!

again- thanks people! :smallsmile:

[Malevolence]

Higher than normal WBL actually helps fix balance problems, not exasperates them.

The problems here are:

Enemies are not built by the same rules as PCs. All enemies should have 32 PB if the PCs do.
If you think you're not good at designing encounters, you probably aren't.

32 PB itself is not a problem, as that too fixes balance problems. But giving enemies a lower amount just results in easily defeated enemies.

Smaller numbers of stronger enemies, but NOT a single opponent is the way to go. Mooks have inflated CR contribution. They seem harder than they are. Keep in mind not all CR is created equal. Chances are, a CR 7 Hill Giant has better stats than that level 12 beatstick you were planning to use. So don't use the level 12 beatstick, and do use the Hill Giant unless you are deliberately going for a very easy, yet highly rewarding fight.

[Dralnu]

I have a similar problem with my group. It's a level 8 party with a warblade, favored soul, assassin, and scout. The scout and assassin are pretty basic, but a level 8 spellcaster has a lot of powerful option and the warblade can be just nuts damage. No matter how many generic tough stuff I'd throw at them, they'd just mow it down with surprising ease.

I found two major elements contributed to making the encounters much harder:
1) Finding a way to give the monsters a surprise round. The PCs would trivialize some of my toughest fights just by getting the jump on the enemy. However, if they were jumped, it became MUCH harder. Being flat-footed while taking a full round of beatings makes a world of difference.
2) Optimizing the monster's strengths, generally by having an optimal environment. Aquatic beasts underwater. Blindsight beasts in pure darkness or obscuring mists. Bullrushing beasts on a natural, narrow bridge. Beasts either with very high movement speed (shadow / dark template perhaps) or the ability to move unhindered through terrain using hit-and-run tactics (spring attack?) in the jungle's undergrowth. Element-immune creatures fighting within a dangerous environment of said element, or even creatures that heal from a specific condition being paired with a spellcaster that does AOE spells of that condition, for example pairing a fireball-chucking wizard with iron golem minions.

If you'd like to see specific examples of this, I used this mentality to build these encounters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9902975#post9902975) for my last session of my evil campaign. The encounter stats / tactics can be found in the link, the actual results can be found in my sig. It worked MUCH better than my previous battles.

Hope it helps.

EDIT: I should also mention a third way to up the challenge:
3) Tricking your players. Make them waste valuable actions / spells on the wrong target. Liberal use of illusion spells help here greatly. It could be as simple as making them encounter a Major Image of the BBEG so the PCs waste valuable resources nuking it, or it could be something much more devious.

For example, one of my favorites: The PCs come across two enemies. These enemies could be leading mooks for added challenge, up to you. One of these enemies is in full plate and wielding a massive weapon, while the other is wearing robes with arcane and divine runes. The PCs will likely assume the robed figure is a caster and try to target him first. Actually, the robed figure is a vampire monk, who promptly starts smashing them with energy-draining unarmed strikes. The full plate warrior is actually a sorcerer who used Major Image to make the illusion of a clanking full plate armor and spent a feat to wield his weapon. The sorcerer promptly starts casting spells of your liking unhindered. This again is a tactic to make the PCs essentially "waste" a round and get them in a poor position, which really raises the challenge of the encounter significantly.

[McSmack]

I've had similar problems in my games as well. The party is skilled enough to bash through most things I throw at them. I've found that maxing out the enemies HP helps, as it doesn't make the enemy's individual attacks stronger, but makes the combat last a lot longer. This makes the combats more memorable and exciting from what my players tell me.

It might be too late for encouter suggestions, but I ran a similar dungeon in my Xendrik game a few months ago. The party were in the ruins of an ancient elven temple dating back to the elven rebellion. Guarding the entrance was a warforged scorpion from the Secrets of Xendrik book. It had been left by some drow explorers because it was too big to take into the dungeon. They never returned, so it's been on guard duty for a century.

The subsurface ruins have been overrun by tomb spiders (MM IV?). they're nice because
1. the bigger ones have a swarm on them, so 2-for-1 monsters.
2. they create a special undead by implanting eggs in hosts (undead that explode with spider swarms!)
3. They have an odd poison that reverses the effects of healing/inflict spells cast on the target. So when the cleric goes to heal the wounded, they get slammed for more damage. This is a nice unexpected mechanic that can throw a curveball at the party.
The undead in this case were unfortunate adventurers and local drow, but you could easily up the to large size to fit a giant's tomb.

[Anxe]

If you have the right MM book, I'd go with the Feral Yowler. That thing is lethal. It's in MM2 or MM3, I don't remember which. Throw two at them. It's about suited for their level. Yowlers fight best outside with the players trapped in a valley, the players trapped in fog, or at night. The Yowlers run in and attack and then they run back out when wounded where the players can't see them. The "out" location can be far enough away in the fog, 100 feet away at night, or over the ridgeline if the players are in a valley. Yowlers have Fast Healing, so they'll quickly heal up and then run back in for more carnage.

Problems with this encounter:
Super deadly.
Has to take place outside within specific visibility conditions.
Doesn't really have any plot significance. This is more a random encounter than anything else.