Something other than GW?

[Paganboy28]

Can anyone recommend a miniatures-based game other than a GW one?

Malifaux looks interesting though some of the models look a bit dodgy.

Warmachine/Hordes looks ok, though again it might be like GW and just end up with masses of models required to play.

[Jair Barik]

Privateer Press
-Nice models but predominantly metal
-Don't need too many to play small games but this assumes you don't want to swap units out from time to time

Malifaux
-Nice models in general, exclusively metal.
-Need very few to play a game but some characters can produce more models over the course of a battle or cause models to change requiring you to potentially need more (Lilith+Resurrectionists spring to mind)

Spartan Games
-Pretty good models. Resin and metal (dependent upon system).
-Bigger scale (vechile based as opposed to infantry based, think battlefleet gothic)
-Several systems, how much has been released for each varies, most recent system (Dystopian Wars) has very little released so far

Reaper miniatures
-Can't comment as I haven't personally bought anything from them. Some nice looking stuff though.

I know more but can't name them off the top of my head.

[dsmiles]

Privateer Press
-Nice models but predominantly metal
-Don't need too many to play small games but this assumes you don't want to swap units out from time to time

Reaper miniatures
-Can't comment as I haven't personally bought anything from them. Some nice looking stuff though.

PP's minis are great. I don't see anything wrong with metal minis, personally, but YMMV. 50 points (general tournament size) cost me about $250. 25 points (general friendly game) cost me about $150 - $175. I imagine that Hordes runs about the same as Warmachine, price-wise.

I haven't played Reaper's Warlord or CAV games, but I frequently use Reaper's Dark Heaven Legends line and Warlord line for DnD. They're average quality minis, but they're also pretty cheap.

[Paganboy28]

Hmm...

I am not sure what I want to play. My mate has expressed an interest in playing "something".... he has GW 40K marines and orks. I used to play 40K as well but since I haven't played for five years, I got rid of all my armies on ebay.

The 40K rules seem to have changed, as well as the GW prices becoming higher and higher (though their models are pretty good still). Some of the rules for 40K look odd and reading forums from players it is getting more and more skewed towards marine armies.... and even those are getting silly overpowered and it seems the game is almost internally destroying itself.

PP Hordes or Warmachine sound interesting, and the Cryx or Legion of Everblight look an interesting army in terms of their models (no idea how they play so advice would be good).

Lichlord Terminus looks great, though his head looks a bit funny so may end up converting that. Plus the idea of necrotech is always good.

However, getting PP would mean both of us collecting new armies which I could see resistance with.

[Jair Barik]

Whilst they do worl together Warmachine and Hordes both have different rules so you would need to buy two books going Cryx+Everblight.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with metal minis but I know some people prefer plastics (easier to work with/customise less prone to chipping easier to assemble) with resin being a 'middle ground' of sorts (not prone to chipping but occasionally come with mould deformities).

[dsmiles]

I started with 40k, but since buying into Warmachine (currently playing both Retribution and Talion Charter), I haven't looked back. As a matter of fact, I plan on giving my Tau to my kids this summer to practice their painting and modelling skills on.

[Penguinizer]

I don't really think you need two books. The only differences are the Warlock/Warcaster rules.

Those are things you can basically just remember. Just grab a battlebox booklet for the other game. Those explain the focus rules unless I remember wrong.

[Cristo Meyers]

I haven't played Reaper's Warlord or CAV games, but I frequently use Reaper's Dark Heaven Legends line and Warlord line for DnD. They're average quality minis, but they're also pretty cheap.

Last I knew CAV was kinda on the outs in Reaper, but this was some time ago, understand. Warlord's just recently been revamped and is supposed to be better, but the Lady and I haven't put it through it's paces yet.

Reaper's big problem really is that you could probably fit the entire population of people playing Warlord comfortably in a banquet hall...

[dsmiles]

I don't really think you need two books. The only differences are the Warlock/Warcaster rules.

Those are things you can basically just remember. Just grab a battlebox booklet for the other game. Those explain the focus rules unless I remember wrong.Vaguely. My friend bought a Cryx battlegroup, and got the quickstart guide. Turns out, it's a good thing I bought the book.

That being said, I don't know how well the Hordes quickstart guide explains the Fury mechanic. I have Dhalia & Skarath for my Retribution army, but am afraid to use them without the Hordes book.

[Jair Barik]

Okay got some more options for you here.

mantic games makes the game kings of war, fantasy style warfare.
Think its a mix of plastic and metal.
WARNING-Anyone looking at the armies and models from Mantic may notice similarity to another well known table top fantasy war game. Various peeps on the internet speculate how long it takes GW to sue them (abyssal dwarves were origionally going to be called Kaos dwarves)

Infinity is a sci-fi wargame. Pretty nice models but a lot seem pretty samey to me.

Avatars of War is more fantasy miniatures. No actual system but it is pretty clear they are intended for use as an alternative group of models for WHFB.

Ex-Illis is another new one. Not my cup of tea but it tries to incorporate Lap tops into the game system. YMMV. Not seen any games played or heard anything about it good or bad really. concept doesn't appeal to me.

[Paganboy28]

So you would say that on the whole Warmachine/Horde is better than 40K/Fantasy?

What are the Cryx like?

[Jair Barik]

Don't know how easily you can compare WHFB to Hordes/WM...

40K though... welll H/WM is more a skirmish game (the fact that losing a specific model loses you the game reflects this a lot) and it doesn't appear to be suffering from the horrible imbalance of rules that 40k is going through at the moment (every new rulebook brings with it some hideous new imbalance that makes certain armies hardly worth playing competitively).

Overall though I have found H/WM preferable to 40k I still prefer WHFB to both.

[dsmiles]

So you would say that on the whole Warmachine/Horde is better than 40K/Fantasy?

What are the Cryx like?

I would say, wholeheartedly and emphatically: YES!
(Disclaimer: I love me some steampunk.)

Cryx are Necrotechs. It seems like they rely on "soul tokens" and/or "corpse tokens" to do extra cool stuff (above and beyond the normal cool stuff), which makes for an additional mechanic to keep up with. My friend bought them for the looks, the same reason I play Retribution and Talion Charter. It's all about the style.

WM: Cygnar seems to be the most commonly played army, followed a close second by Khador, then the Protectorate of Menoth.

Hordes: I'm not sure, but Skorne seems to be the most common here, and from what I saw at the tournament I went to, Trollbloods are pretty common, too.

[Paganboy28]

WHFB was ok, though i got frustrated with having to have units on those movement tray things to move things about. Plus my undead (pre- Vampires/Mummies) always lost to my mates High Elves...

If they still made Chaos Dwarves then I would be more tempted.

[dsmiles]

BattleCollege (http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/) may help in your decision, if you decide to go WM/Hordes.

[Mando Knight]

Can anyone recommend a miniatures-based game other than a GW one?

BattleTech. It's a miniatures wargame of GIANT ROBOTS.

It uses primarily hex-based combat rules rather than compass-and-straightedge, though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Warmachine is a skirmish game. Warhammer fantasy is a pitched battle game. Which of those you'd prefer is probably a better question than which has a better rules system. 40k is a bastardised skirmish game that pretends to be a large scale battle game but on the other hand there aren't really any true sci fi battle games to compare it to.

Haven't read the rules for Infinity, but its proponents think of it has having a better rules system and being more tactical than the competitors. But they would, wouldn't they.

Best advantage of 40k is the range of models you can use for conversions and that you can play it quite quickly, plus the large base of opponents. That's about it really.

Warmachine is cheaper than 40k because you need less models, but the models are pretty expensive and seem to be going under a similar price hike to 40k recently. They seem to have jumped from £13.50 for 6 metal miniatures to £21.50 for 6.

Reaper miniatures seem to be about the only company that believes in reasonable pricing for metal miniatures. But if you actually want an army from them they'll end up barely cheaper than GW/PP.

Kings of War takes Reaper's sensible pricing and puts it on plastics. You can get a lot of minis. Except really they're only as cheap as GW was 7 odd years ago :smallmad:

Cheapest big army 28mm game would use Victrix Napoleonics. You get 60 riflemen for £21.95 :smallbiggrin:

Secrets of the Third Reich seems pretty well priced model wise but I've never heard of anyone playing it and don't know how many you're supposed to need. I have a horde of Russian WW2 figures that didn't cost me more than £40, but have absolutely no use for them except as proxies in 40k.

[dsmiles]

Warmachine is cheaper than 40k because you need less models, but the models are pretty expensive and seem to be going under a similar price hike to 40k recently. They seem to have jumped from £13.50 for 6 metal miniatures to £21.50 for 6.
There's a site (for U.S. customers only, I think) that can help with that. If anyone's interested, I can PM it. I don't know if it's against the rules to advertise like that, even though I'm not affiliated with the site.

[Closet_Skeleton]

There's a site (for U.S. customers only, I think) that can help with that. If anyone's interested, I can PM it. I don't know if it's against the rules to advertise like that, even though I'm not affiliated with the site.

You can get discounts on pretty much any range if you know where to look.

[dsmiles]

Just tryin' to help.

[ShadowFighter15]

With Warmachine and Infinity, I have a few links that might help with them.

Firstly, for Warmachine - Beasts of War have done a couple of how-to-play videos using the models from the Cygnar and Khador starter boxes as well as a few other models in part two to cover the rules for solos and squads. Here's the links to part one (http://www.beastsofwar.com/warmachine/play-warmachine-part1/) and part two (http://www.beastsofwar.com/warmachine/play-warmachine-part2/).

As for Infinity (and you've probably guessed this one after seeing the page around those videos) but Beasts of War are dedicating a whole week to covering Infinity, including how-to-play videos. They mentioned in another video (their live show, Turn 8) that the rulebook for Infinity is a bit hard to really get through, but the system itself is easy when you have someone show you an easy way to do it. What Beasts of War did was work with the company that makes Infinity (name escapes me at the moment) to design a sort-of quickstart guide.

Might be worth looking at them as well as some of the unboxing videos they've done for Warmachine/Hordes and any they'll be posting for Infinity Week to get an idea of what the games are like.

[Zorg]

FireZone (http://www.box.net/shared/fkt3ml8uzr)- it's free and you can use whatever minis you like (personally I like Studio McVey's Sedition Wars (http://studiomcvey.com/)).
Disclaimer - I wrote the game. But it's still good!

One game not mentioned is StarGrunt II (http://www.fmaskirmish.com/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=9&id=29&Itemid=50) (also free), which I've played and is quite fun.
If you've got 40k stuff Necromunda is free to download, as is Blood Bowl.

I've heard good things about AT-4, but it uses pre-paints so I have no interest in it.

[Erloas]

it doesn't appear to be suffering from the horrible imbalance of rules that 40k is going through at the moment (every new rulebook brings with it some hideous new imbalance that makes certain armies hardly worth playing competitively).
I would say that for the most part the internet whining of imbalances in the rules is much much greater then the real world effects of the rules changes. It is true that a few of the really old books have not aged well, but it does seem to be the case that it is a failing of the old books, not just because the new ones are progressively getting more overpowered.



As for games that aren't GW, I would also recommend Battletech. Its a really good game, though it takes a while to learn the rules to the point where the game moves quickly. But the rules are very polished and (at least in the standard level rules) there aren't conflicting rules or questionable means of interpreting rules.
The game also plays in a fairly unique manner compared to most other table top games I've seen. (I have seen a few other systems that are similar but those systems are not very mainstream).
I really enjoy it because it does play so much different from everything else. They are almost exclusively metal models. They are working on some new high detail plastics but right now its not more then a couple models.
The game can be played with anything from 1-3 models per side to hundreds (if you have an insane amount of time).
There is a huge amount of customization in the units and the environment can have a huge impact on how the game is played and what works well and what doesn't. There is a very large selection of advanced rules that can be used to change things up or run specific scenarios.

Its also a game that can easily be ran as simple pitched battles to complex scenarios. The games can run in a campaign sort of setting and easily carry over actions from previous games without destroying the balance of future games. It is also a very well developed universe with a well defined story that is advancing and changing, but not in such a way that old models have to be replaced because they are no longer any good.

They have free quick-start rules on their web site. Unfortunately the starter box is no longer available, though all the books from the box are available free on their website anyway, but you don't get the models. Of course the starter box models are no where near the quality of their normal metal models. They do have a 25th Anniversary starter box that should be coming out soon... though they've been saying that for a year or two now.

[Winterwind]

I can only second this recommendation, considering Erloas said pretty much everything there was to say about it - BattleTech is an awesome game. :smallcool:

[Johnny Blade]

Before I actually get to the point here...

FireZone (http://www.box.net/shared/fkt3ml8uzr)- it's free and you can use whatever minis you like (personally I like Studio McVey's Sedition Wars (http://studiomcvey.com/)).
Disclaimer - I wrote the game. But it's still good!
I've been looking for something like that for a while. Iiinteresting...:smallsmile:



Well, then...


I've heard good things about AT-4, but it uses pre-paints so I have no interest in it.
AT-43. :smalltongue:
And I've heard...different things about it. More importantly, the company making it has just gone belly up a few months ago, so getting into the game now would probably be a bad idea. You can get models for virtually nothing and they're pre-painted, so not a lot of money or effort would go into this, but who's gonna play it a year from now?


Can anyone recommend a miniatures-based game other than a GW one?

Malifaux looks interesting though some of the models look a bit dodgy.
Most of the newer ones look really good. See, this game was made for a miniatures range that went from a side project to a rather ambitious business, and that really shows.


Warmachine/Hordes looks ok, though again it might be like GW and just end up with masses of models required to play.
Masses of models meaning what? You'll end up with 2 units (of 10 models) most of the time, although that's depending on the faction, really. Either way, it's safe to expect that you'll put 20 models on the table, often closer to 30, in an average game.
So, not quite a skirmish game.
If it's a cost issue, PP isn't much better than GW. Their miniatures are a bit bigger and not produced in the same quantities, so you pay more per model. Buy-in cost is probably much lower, but in the long run, you'll spend roughly the same amount. (Note that I have never played a single Warhammer game in my life, I just take what I know from discussions with other players and what I know about GW's price ranges from ordering their stuff to be converted into Blood Bowl teams and go from there right now.)
Some factions can be played on a budget, though, like Circle and Khador. Others, not so much.

Anyway, as for a comparison between Warmahordes and Malifaux, here are a few points that come to mind:

Scope: Malifaux is a skirmish game. Crews usually have 5-10 models, although there's quite a bit of summoning in some cases, so you'll go beyond that at times. Warmahordes is very much its own thing - it has units activating as one, but it never gets to really big battles or at least shouldn't since it's not balanced for that kind of thing.

Mechanics: Brief rundown here. Malifaux models are more complex, all of them having special rules. Malifaux has alternating activation, whereas players take turns in Warmahordes. Malifaux lets you build your list after you know what your main objective is, while you have set lists in Warmahordes (tournaments almost always allow you to pick between two). Warmahordes uses dice as its random number generator, two being the base for most things. Malifaux uses a deck of cards (for each player), which means it's a bit more random in a way, since only one card is usually used. But it has a lot of ways to influence the result and, as the deck of cards depletes, the remaining results become actually predictable, so in the end.

Scenario vs. Murder Murder Kill Kill: Malifaux is more about scenario. The main part here is that only the points you earned going after objectives, of which you have several, count towards a victory. Lose your leader (the Master in this case)? Well, it's gonna hurt, because Masters are powerful, but you're fine as long as you do what you're there for. Some of the Strategies (main objectives, assigned randomly) and Schemes (secondary objectives, chosen by player) in Malifaux are about killing enemy models or surviving, though.
On the other hand, Warmahordes is much more about killing models. When the leader (Warcaster or Warlock) dies, it's over, and some factions are mainly going to try to go for the assassination - Legion and especially Cygnar come to mind here.

Cost: Malifaux's cheaper, but not as much as you might initially believe. You'll need a lot of terrain, more than your LGS can provide on a busy day. There are also some models that are designed with certain Masters in mind, whereas there are very few models that are only good with certain Warcasters/Warlocks in Warmahordes - most are either good or not - so you may have to pick up a few models when you start with a new Master, whereas you can often just fit a new Warcaster into your collection. Still, Malifaux is cheaper.

Errata policy: This looks like an odd point but trust me, it can be a big one. Wyrd is really active in this regard, which results in balance issues being addressed quickly but the resulting Errata documents are a bit on the long side. They have recently released a Rules Manual, in part for that reason. Privateer Press doesn't take such an active stance, which has led to some rather severe balance issues in the past. Ask any Warmahordes player about MkI Epic Vlad and watch him scream in horror or, if he's a Khador player, do his best evil laugh. On the upside, MkII, the current edition of the rules, doesn't have such huge issues right now, and you have far less Errata to deal with. (Malifaux's cards have been updated as well.)


That's already longer than I wanted it to be, but here's some more anyway:

Malifaux video of a full game. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTtHRBol8OA)

Other games you might be interested in:

Pulp City: Superheroes skirmish game. Fun little game, with nice terrain interactions worked into the rules. (This means you get to throw cars at your opponent's guys.) Very cheap since you can expand a model at a time and will only put 4-6 on the table in most games. semi-random bunch of letters indicating link to website (http://www.pulp-city.com/)

Hell Dorado: Another Skirmish Game. Back story is pretty much that humans have found gates to hell and are invading the place for different reasons. The game itself died a few years ago and was recently revived by Cipher Studios (http://cipher-studios.com/) who have just started to release stuff for it again. Seems to be less about combos than Warmahordes and Malifaux, although synergies still play a big role. But that's just what I think, you shouldn't trust that. I'm just getting into the game myself. In part because this game has some of the best miniatures around, which can be viewed here (http://www.helldorado.fr/figurines/index.php). (Warning: gore and nipples ahead.)


...and then there's always Blood Bowl, best game ever, although that's sort of GW*, I guess. :smallbiggrin:



*: Although nobody should actually use GW miniatures for that, except conversions. Their Blood Bowl line is, for the most part, terrible. Independent companies are where it's at here.

[Timberwolf]

I can only second this recommendation, considering Erloas said pretty much everything there was to say about it - BattleTech is an awesome game. :smallcool:

Seconded.

Plus the great thing about battletech is that every mini can be used by any faction. Yes, even the advanced Clan machines in the right time frame. You want a Cyclops when you're plying House Davion ? Go ahead and use it. Plus the fluff's good and, by downloading Megamek (http://megamek.info/) you can get used to the rules. Also, by downloading Solaris Skunk Werks (http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/), you can make custom mechs for your use. Catalyst Games Lab makes a boxed introduction set and Iron Wind Metals (http://www.ironwindmetals.com/store/index.php) is for all your extra miniature needs.

[ShadowFighter15]

They do have a 25th Anniversary starter box that should be coming out soon... though they've been saying that for a year or two now.

Don't know if it's out, but one of the Beasts of War guys had it on their live show and they said they'd be doing an unboxing of it (probably after their Infinity coverage) sometime. They showed some of the stuff on the live show (recording should still be in the site, but it's an hour and a half and the battletech set was somewhere in the last half-hour, I think); starter rules, a fluff book that gives a quick overview of the Inner Sphere, I think there were a few other books and there was a big bag of minis.

The video quality wasn't as good as their recorded unboxings, but the Atlas mini they showed seemed rather lacking in detail. Might've just been the camera they were using though. Though the limbs did look kinda thin for a 100-ton 'mech.

[Erloas]

Well they do actually have it on pre-order right now (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2703) but I don't see the actual release date.

Here is something on the unboxing (http://www.purplepawn.com/2011/03/hands-on-battletech-25th-anniversary-boxed-set/), including a youtube video of all the parts.

The two premium plastics are the Loki and Thor, two clan omni-mechs. They are the same models that have been out a little while, I think they first had them at GenCon last year. These are their first trial runs of high quality plastics, as opposed to the metal models everything else is and the cheap plastics that make up the rest of the box.

[Timberwolf]

Excellent. I would heartily recommend Battletech as a GW alternative and the return of the starter box is a good thing.

[Gruffard]

I like Warmachine/Hordes, and they do something interesting that cuts back on the normal GW complaints.

Older book balance is basically non-extant cause once to twice a year they have an expansion book, that adds models/rules for all the factions. Also a little over a year ago, the game went through its first re-haul, which makes all the minis of your army in the Forces of ... book. Wrath, the first major expansion of MkII is due this summer.

On the price increase, yes there has been one, but unlike GW, they increased the cost of the new re-sculpts of existing minis, and its been a few years since the first models came out, so its not surprising inflation occurred and it costs more... But anyone is going to complain when their models cost more.

PS: I posted info on your two factions you were thinking of in the Warmachine/Hordes thread.

[dsmiles]

I like Warmachine/Hordes, and they do something interesting that cuts back on the normal GW complaints.

Older book balance is basically non-extant cause once to twice a year they have an expansion book, that adds models/rules for all the factions. Also a little over a year ago, the game went through its first re-haul, which makes all the minis of your army in the Forces of ... book. Wrath, the first major expansion of MkII is due this summer.

On the price increase, yes there has been one, but unlike GW, they increased the cost of the new re-sculpts of existing minis, and its been a few years since the first models came out, so its not surprising inflation occurred and it costs more... But anyone is going to complain when their models cost more.

PS: I posted info on your two factions you were thinking of in the Warmachine/Hordes thread.

Yes...Wrath...Arcanatrik Generator, here I come! mwahaMwaHaHaMWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!

Sorry, did I get evil on your shirt? :smallredface:

[Knaight]

Between this (http://www.wargamevault.com/) and this (http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/), there should be something that suits you. Both have lots of free stuff too.

[Erloas]

Well the aforementioned BattleTech 25th Anniversary Introductory Box Set is actually released and able to be ordered already.
I'm not sure who all carries it, but theWarStore has it for $40 right now (http://www.thewarstore.com/product57943.html).

[Hawriel]

I will promote Battletech as well. You can get the in univers campaigne scenarios or make up your own. Customize your mechs to your hearts content.

Also the as aleady said the new starter box set has been releast last month.