Monster Tiers?

[Angry Bob]

Is there a quick guide for DMs for monsters that are exceptionally strong or weak for their printed CR? Because if there isn't, I'm making one.

I know there's a better CR formula floating around the forums, but this would be mainly for printed monsters.

This is a rough draft. None of the categories are well-defined yet.

Tier 0: The CR printed is simply wrong, even to a relatively untrained eye. It will tear through any party that "should", by its printed CR, be fighting it like a chainsaw through a baby. Examples: The Adamantine Horror(MMII), The Monstrous Crab(Online).

Tier 1: This creature is considerably stronger than its printed CR would imply. It will go right to town on a party that isn't highly optimized or that doesn't happen to have a specific thing required to fight it with any kind of effectiveness. Examples: Allips(MMI) or any other powerful undead(of the "No cleric? YOU'RE BONED" variety), some creatures with DR. I don't know a well-known creature, but I did once have to fight wererats with DR 15/Silver instead of 5. Those would count.

Tier 2: This creature is strong for its CR. Either it has a special ability that you wouldn't expect to see on something of its level, or it's just plain stronger. Some things in this category have specific weaknesses, but unlike those in Tier 1 that do, but not having whatever they're vulnerable to will make the fight difficult instead of seizure-inducingly frustrating or outright unwinnable. Examples: Kythons of any sort(BoVD), Voor/Dreadful Lasher(MMV), Runehound(MMIII)

Tier 3: This creature pretty much lines up with its printed CR. It may challenge the players if it gets a surprise round or an advantageous environment, but it shouldn't TPK a semioptimized party if nothing very strange happens. Examples: ???

Tier 4: Weak creatures for their CR, can still pose a challenge under the right circumstances. Alternatively, they can just be something to throw in the PCs' way if you want them to use up some daily resources but don't want any of them to die or be crippled until further notice.

Tier 5: Very weak. They'll die in a hurry to anything that optimizes at all, and aren't that good even if they do have a terrain advantage.

Tier 6: Laughably weak. Whoever made it vastly overestimated its power. It can be easily destroyed by PCs many levels below them, never mind ones of their own level. This is the other "you got it wrong" tier.

And so on. I want to develop more well-defined criteria for the tiers, as the character tier system before filling them out in earnest.

I also realize there are a lot of monsters out there. So a solid criteria would be ultimate goal of this exercise.

TL;DR: Name noticeably strong or noticeably weak monsters you have direct experience with and elaborate.

[sonofzeal]

I think you've got a few too many gradations on there. I don't think there's any reliable way to sort things into Tier 1 that won't fit better into 0 or 2. Similarly, 4-5-6 are all going to bleed into each other to an excessive degree. For the PrC poject, and for my Alignment system, I found 5 to be a good number. VERY-moderate-neutral-moderate-VERY. It provides some granularity without giving choices that can't be distinguished from each other.

Also, a lot of monsters are binary. Either the party is equipped to fight that sort of monster, or they aren't. Incorporeal Undead are a good example. Iron Golems are another. Any creature with high defenses for its level (like Tsochari, or Rakshasa) can fall into this category too. So it gets complicated - binary monsters can be overpowered or underpowered, depending on the exact group in question. Where do you sort them then?

[Angry Bob]

As it stands, Tier 1 would be for binary monsters that require the party to have something in order to beat them, while monsters that are only effective against a specific character type(usually because it has an ability that specifically targets the ability of that character - like, say, something that drinks incarnum or whatever against a meldshaper) would fall under 5 by the same logic.

Tiers 0 and 6 as written here aren't really tiers. They're for cases like the Adamantine Horror, That Damn Crab, or the Tarrasque, where someone's finger slipped typing the CR, they seriously miscalculated its power level, or just didn't expect players to be as creative as it turns out they are. They could be consolidated into tier YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

Like I said, it's a draft.

Advice helps, as do horror stories from players' and DMs' points of view.

[Endarire]

Dragons seem like tier 2. They're under-CRed by 1 to 3.

Dire wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWolf.htm) are T2 for CR3. Wow do they hurt at level 3 against an unprepared party! Compare them to the CR5 winter wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/winterWolf.htm) which are slightly stronger but 2 CR higher.

[crichelle]

Dragons seem like tier 2. They're under-CRed by 1 to 3.

Dire wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWolf.htm) are T2 for CR3. Wow do they hurt at level 3 against an unprepared party! Compare them to the CR5 winter wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/winterWolf.htm) which are slightly stronger but 2 CR higher.

Wholeheartedly agree. Dire Wolves hit like bricks and with their fast movement can easily close with the squishies in the party. Considering that arcane casters will likely have 8-16 hit points at this point and divine casters will have 16-24 hitpoints, you are talking about a creature that can one shot many casters with one lucky +11 to hit roll. I threw a pack of five Dire Wolves (EL 5.25) at a pair of level 8 characters as an easy random encounter and they came within a hairs breath of TPK.

I would also class lantern archons (CR2) as Tier 4-5. One magic missle and that first level wizard just scored 600 exp.

[Runestar]

I think there are some monsters which require you to set up the environment to support them if you want them to be a credible threat. How would we rate them?

For example, the mindflayer and nymph. Both have very potent crowd-disabling abilities, but are extremely fragile. So you want to pair them with meatshields so they get to spam their abilities with less fear of being 1-shotted in the first round of combat.

[Endarire]

Dretches (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#dretch) are strong for their CR. I'd put 'em at a solid tier 2 for CR2. They're 'decathletes' with high resistances, stinking cloud and scare. They're support creatures, but they support well.

Imps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp) are debatably worse than dretches! Invisible stings, poison, 50' perfect flight, DR 5/good or silver, fast healing 2, and suggestion! Give 'em longbows (they're proficient from the Outsider type) and rain slow death (or quick death) upon your foes! Mind you, the group isn't expected to have see invisibility yet. Oops?

Outsiders, Dragons, and casters tend to be the strongest creatures for their CR. They're some of my favorite creatures to use as a DM.

[Fishy]

The PC Tier system refers to how the PC can deal with a wide range of situations, instead of power-by-numbers.

Loosely Speaking:

Any Tier 1 character can solve any situation.

Any situation can be solved by a Tier 2 character, but not every Tier 2 can do everything.

Any Tier 3 character can meaningfully contribute to any situation, but not solve them all by themselves.

Every Tier 4 character has a situation that they can solve, but sometimes has nothing to contribute.

Every Tier 5 character has a situation they can meaningfully contribute to, but usually has nothing to contribute.

Tier 6 characters can't do anything well.

'Tierless' and 'Tier 0' are reserved for 'broken', in the strict sense that the rules of the game don't work when applied to them. 'Any' means 'any likely to come up in a game unless the DM bends over backwards'. 'Solve' doesn't have a strict definition.

If you wanted a more solid criteria, while including CR into the mix, I'd define it like this:

Any Tier 1 monster can TPK any party of their CR. It does something so well that there's no defense against it at this level, or there's no way for a party of that level to hurt or hinder it. A living, breathing, 'Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies'.

Any party can be TPK'd by a Tier 2 monster for their CR, but that one monster doesn't TPK everything. This usually means that the monster has a weakness to a material or element or tactic, or a special ability that ends fights all by itself, but can be defended against. If the party is prepared, it's a tough but enjoyable fight, and if they aren't, they lose. Good for BBEGs, recurring villains and climactic fights.

Any Tier 3 monster is a challenge to any party of their CR.

A Tier 4 monster is a TPK to some parties of their CR, but usually trivial. Either they have an attack that is devastating in certain circumstances or against certain opponents, or they are normally invulnerable, but their weakness is something that most parties can be expected to have, and makes them fold like paper. Glass cannons, the traditional 'Puzzle Fight'.

A Tier 5 monster is a challenge for some parties of their CR, but usually trivial. Similar to Tier 4, except that when the monster is playing to its strengths, it is merely difficult, and not overpowering. If the DM crafts the encounter around this monster's abilities and weaknesses, you have an interesting fight.

A Tier 6 monster is trivial to all parties of their CR. Either their area of expertise is something that never comes up, or they just plain aren't good at fighting.


'Any party' can't and doesn't refer to every single combination of possible D&D characters. 'TPK', 'Trivial', and 'Challenge' are hard-to-define terms, but generally mean 'So hard that it isn't fun', 'so easy that it isn't fun', and 'fun'.

By this setup, Mindflayers and Nymphs that need an encounter planned around them are Tier 5, Lantern Archons that die to Magic Missile are Tier 4, and Tier 5 monsters make for more interesting and fun encounters than Tier 4.

[peacenlove]

I would like to add the elemental weirds from MM2 to the tier 0 category.
CR 12 with 18th level sorcerer casting and all divinations at will as a free action :smallmad:

[Doc Roc]

I would like to add the elemental weirds from MM2 to the tier 0 category.
CR 12 with 18th level sorcerer casting and all divinations at will as a free action :smallmad:

Definitely tier 0. Possibly the strongest monster in the game besides the shaedling.

My standard example for this is the Hezrou. CR 11, meaning you might use it as a boss mob for an EL 8 party. Except it will almost certainly insta-kill them. Oops.

[DonEsteban]

I started a similar thread once:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166956

I would appreciate such a guide. Wouldn't a natural categorization be

CR+++: Monsters 3 or more levels above their CR
CR+: Monsters 1 or two levels above their CR
CR=: about right
CR-: listed CR too high
CR---: listed CR way too high

But maybe that's too simple. Anyway if you compiled such a list, it would be helpfule to include for each monster how much the real CR differs from the listed one and why...

From what I gather, most monsters from MMII would be in tiers 1 or 2 :)

[Runestar]

From what I gather, most monsters from MMII would be in tiers 1 or 2 :)

They actually belong to one of either extreme. Either horrendously under or over cr'ed.

You have the mountain giant, which is cr28 on paper, but consensus pegs him closer to cr16!

Then yeah, you have the adamantine horror, which is like the poster boy of all that is wrong with MM2. :smalltongue:

[Firechanter]

Did anyone ever bother to re-write the CRs for the various MMs? I'd be very interested in such a list, but don't have the proficiency to do it myself.

[Runestar]

Did anyone ever bother to re-write the CRs for the various MMs? I'd be very interested in such a list, but don't have the proficiency to do it myself.

You can google enworld, there has been some discussions on the more controversial monsters.

Fiendish codex revises the crs of various fiends in MM2 and fiend folio (amongst others, but these 2 had the most significant changes).

But some of them are just too lopsided to attach a definitive cr, IMO.

[Angry Bob]

Fishy's system definitely works better that what I have now.

Though with any such system there'll obviously be more of a margin of error than with a class tier system depending on how well a given party has optimized.

[Prime32]

Cloaker lord is at least 3-4 CRs too low. (It's CR 7 and besides its flight, moans, engulf, etc. it casts as a 9th-level wizard, ignoring non-verbal components)

[Yora]

I think everything that is a full caster should have at least a CR equal to its CL. When a human sorcerer X is CR X, a nonhuman that casts like a sorcerer X but has a bunch of special abilities must not be lower than CR X.

[nyarlathotep]

Definitely tier 0. Possibly the strongest monster in the game besides the shaedling.

My standard example for this is the Hezrou. CR 11, meaning you might use it as a boss mob for an EL 8 party. Except it will almost certainly insta-kill them. Oops.

What makes the shaedling so strong?

[Prime32]

I think everything that is a full caster should have at least a CR equal to its CL. When a human sorcerer X is CR X, a nonhuman that casts like a sorcerer X but has a bunch of special abilities must not be lower than CR X.What about a druid? A nymph's special abilities have to compete with wild shape + animal companion.

Of course, that has more to do with druids' CR. :smalltongue:

What makes the shaedling so strong?They have a power which lets them create any item. Including magic items. And artefacts.

[Zaydos]

Wholeheartedly agree. Dire Wolves hit like bricks and with their fast movement can easily close with the squishies in the party. Considering that arcane casters will likely have 8-16 hit points at this point and divine casters will have 16-24 hitpoints, you are talking about a creature that can one shot many casters with one lucky +11 to hit roll. I threw a pack of five Dire Wolves (EL 5.25) at a pair of level 8 characters as an easy random encounter and they came within a hairs breath of TPK.

I would also class lantern archons (CR2) as Tier 4-5. One magic missle and that first level wizard just scored 600 exp.

Dire Wolves are CR 3, 2 of them are therefore EL 5, 4 are EL 7, and 5 and EL 8. For a pair of level 8 characters that puts them at +2 EL over what they should be facing. That is supposed to be a tough fight. That said I still say dire wolves are strong for CR 3, but there problem in that encounter has more to do with improperly calculated EL.

[Melayl]

[snip]I know there's a better CR formula floating around the forums, but this would be mainly for printed monsters.[snippysnip]

You would be referring probably to this one:
A challenge rating is how tough an encounter with this beast will be. Generally a creature of, say, a CR of 5 should be a standard challenge for a party of 4-5 5th level characters. To defeat this creature will cause them to use up roughly 1/4th to 1/3 their daily resources such as spells, potions, etc. This depends on the build of the party, their items, terrain, and many other factors, but in general it is more or less accurate.

Figuring out this challenge rating is the real fun part, and probably the most challenging bit of monster making. Its as much guestimating as anything, and there are no true rules to determine it exactly. Here is the closest method I've been able to come up with, though creatures with an enormous ammount of hit points or really low-leveled creatures will still be innacurate. The best way is to play-test the creature with parties of varying CR and find out which one most closely fits. Here though is the guestimator method:

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.
, found in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43009) thread. It gets used a lot on the Homebrew forums.

[Gnaeus]

Dire Wolves are CR 3, 2 of them are therefore EL 5, 4 are EL 7, and 5 and EL 8. For a pair of level 8 characters that puts them at +2 EL over what they should be facing. That is supposed to be a tough fight. That said I still say dire wolves are strong for CR 3, but there problem in that encounter has more to do with improperly calculated EL.

Most thuddy animals are over & under CRed. A closed door stops a Dire Wolf. A level 1 archer in a tree can kill a Dire Wolf. A level 4 gnome druid, riding on his Dire Bat, with the Flame Burst reserve feat can kill any number of Dire Wolves until his gods tell him it is way unfair by taking away his powers.

Yes, if you have to MELEE them, they are good. Otherwise, they are nothing. Compare with the CR8, 16 HD Dire Tiger. Hits most things automatically. Grapples most things automatically. Does about 55 damage on a charge, if it doesn't crit or fumble. And they like to attack from surprise. But if you can fly, they are nothing.

[Malevolence]

Magical Beasts are almost always easier than their CR lets on, usually due to them being glass cannons (emphasis on glass) and having terrible Will saves to boot. This is also somewhat true of animals, but most animals are low enough level so that their things are still applicable. That and animals tend to have more HD and therefore have more durability. It's also not really possible to optimize them to fix this as Magical Beasts don't have a lot of resources to shuffle around. Whereas say, something that used spells could be made to select better spells. Something that used items could get better and/or more items. This is almost always caused by some special ability whose importance is greatly overestimated. For example, Winter Wolf cold breath.

Some Monstrous Humanoids are also subject to this. For example, the Medusa. And so are a handful of other creatures, the Beholder being the biggest example.

Anything that gets one ability that could be useful, but is too weak to actually be useful and doesn't get anything else is going to end up being easily killed by stuff much lower level.

[sonofzeal]

And then there's things like the Rust Monster. No real threat of a TPK no matter the circumstances. It would be incredibly difficult to make a Rust Monster TPK even the most ill-prepared PCs. So where do you rate it then? It's certainly one of the worst things many lvl 3 parties could meet.

[Malevolence]

And then there's things like the Rust Monster. No real threat of a TPK no matter the circumstances. It would be incredibly difficult to make a Rust Monster TPK even the most ill-prepared PCs. So where do you rate it then? It's certainly one of the worst things many lvl 3 parties could meet.

Gygaxian tier: Creatures in this tier only exist as a legacy throwback to earlier editions, where gameplay was regarded as a direct competition between the fellow running the game and those playing in it. Creatures in this tier will either kill you without a saving throw or cannot possibly kill you but can do far worse. If you see such a creature, consider a Withdraw action... from your DM.

[Runestar]

They have a power which lets them create any item. Including magic items. And artefacts.

Only if you choose to deliberately misread its power.

But yeah, alchemists fire which deals 1 milliond6 fire damage is cool too (using the crafting guidelines in ELH + shaedling). :smalltongue:

[JaronK]

I think instead of tiers (which are just an ordered scale, but monsters aren't that) what you need are the following categories:

Killers: Stuff that's horribly underrated, like Adamantine Horrors, that will destroy all but the cleverest and most optimized parties.

Overpowered: Stuff that's a lot harder than you might expect, so it's more of a boss fight. Most True Dragons, for example.

Normal: Reasonable CR

Underpowered: Stuff that's better suited to being mobs or easy encounters, or just has way too high a CR. In some cases, stuff that's only a threat to very specific targets. Stuff like the Terrasque goes here.

Specialized: Stuff that'll kill or otherwise really screw your party if they're not specifically prepared for it, but which is otherwise not that hard. Shadows and Rust Monsters for example. Don't throw them at the party without some warning if you don't want to screw them.

JaronK

[Endarire]

I agree with JaronK's assessment, though I also like Fishy's. Jaron's is more specific though.

[Thurbane]

FWIW, I think a lot (most?) printed monsters can be bumped up a tier or more by assigning them decent feats, instead of the usual cavalcade of Alertness, Run, Endurance or Toughness (x4).

Even basic feats like Power Attack, Combat Reflexes or Blind Fight can make a monster much more challenging.

[sonofzeal]

FWIW, I think a lot (most?) printed monsters can be bumped up a tier or more by assigning them decent feats, instead of the usual cavalcade of Alertness, Run, Endurance or Toughness (x4).

Even basic feats like Power Attack, Combat Reflexes or Blind Fight can make a monster much more challenging.
Dungeonscape actually has a whole section on this. It's pretty sweet, but most of us could probably do something similar on our own.